Carrying a 1911 safely

[Mycle]

Hello everyone. This is my first post in a while although I've been lurking and reading almost every day. There's always something new to learn. Back in November '07 I purchjased my first handgun at the age of 57. And now it appears the bug has bitten me hard. Today I picked up my fifth hand gun, my first 1911. The newest member of the family is a Dan Wesson Bob-Tail 45. I didn't make this choice based on product reviews, range reports or opinions I've read in various forums. I got this gun because I just love the way it looks and feels in my hand. And that brings me to my question. I intend to carry this weapon from time to time but I'm concerned about carrying it safely. it seems the most popular mode of carry for a 1911 is cocked with the safety engaged. Now maybe it's my inexperience but it just seems to me that carrying a handgun with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked even with the safety on mightr be dangerous. Advice please. And please help me to not but anymore guns. If my wife knew about my latest purchase she might try to get me committed.

[Playboypenguin]

The 1911 is made to be carried that way and is very safe. The combination of grip safety and thumb safety make it very hard to fire accidently.

[Unregistered]

PBP is correct. The best way to carry a 1911 is chamber loaded, cocked, and locked. The only safe alternative is to carry it unchambered, and rack the slide before use.

[AZGlock13]

Mycle, I agree on what has already been said here. Congrats on the new DW CBOB! I bought a DW CBOB .45 about three months ago and just love it. Great 1911 pistol. Have fun with your new CBOB at the range.

[Richard]

Mycle, I love 1911s but they are not a gun for a novice to carry. The 1911 platform is one that requires rote skills prior to safe use. What do I mean? The first thing I do when I pick up a 1911 is check to see if it is loaded, if so, I place it on safe, and it remains that way until I am ready to fire. After firing the 1911, I automatically take my finger off the trigger and place it back on safe. Until you can do these things without thinking the 1911 is not the carry gun for you. Regards, Richard:D

[Casimer]

If you want to assure yourself as to the multiple safeties on the 1911, learn to take it apart and inspect how they work. Once you see how the thumb and grip safeties actually function, I think that you'll feel more comfortable carrying cocked-and-locked.

[Kreyzhorse]

Another bit of advice is that once you are comfortable with the gun in the "cocked and locked" mode, look for an OWB holster with a thumb break. The thumb break strap should, when the gun is snapped into the holster, run across the firing pin area of the gun in between the hammer and back of the pistol. To me, the holster is another part of the safety process when carrying my 1911.

Now - before I get flamed, I have never tried to see if my 1911 would fire in that position, ie with holstered with the thumb break snapped, but I can't imagine it would. I'd love to hear from someone who has experience with it though.

[lwestatbus]

I agree with Krezhorse's recommendation. I've been handling 1911-style pistols for over 30 years when they were standard issue in the Army. But I am also an inherently cautious person and there is something about the potential energy in that cocked hammer that makes me nervous. No amount of engineering knowledge will make that go away.

I've found a wonderful line of holsters that include a thumb break and I am perfectly comfortable carrying this way--pistol loaded with eight rounds (full mag and one in the chamber), cocked, on safe, and thumb break between the hammer and the firing pin.

Richard's advice is also excellent. Carrying this way requires a few steps to bring the pistol into action: Reach, release the thumb break, draw, take off safe, present, fire. I already have the "feel" of the 1911 but have spent a lot of time embedding these steps into muscle memory.

I just rechecked the forum rules and didn't see any prohibition against plugging a product so here's the holster I use. It is the MacDaniel II model from Andrew's Custom Leather. It is an inside the pant holster and gives you a really flat profile even with the big old 1911. Super quality and a couple of nice adjustment features. I especially like it because the pistol is nicely reachable whether driving or not.

[tegemu]

As mentioned, the multiple safeties on the pistol and the fact that it was designed to be carried cocked and locked makes it safe. It has been carried safely that way for almost 100 years. The thumb strap is a help with safety but a well made, open top, holster with a body shield has a detent molded into the leather that fits the thumb safety in the SAFE position. IMHO the premier open top is the preferred type of holster, the key is a well made quality holster.

[TacticalDefense1911]

A 1911 can be carried very safely "cocked-and-locked". There just always seems to be something about seeing that hammer cocked that worries people. It is just as safe as carrying a DAO pistol that only relies on the weight and length of the trigger pull as a safety. With a 1911 you have the manual safety, the grip safety (or beavertail safety), and you still have to pull the trigger which your holster will keep from happening.

[RickB]

Consider the thousands upon thousands of cops who carry Glocks every day, with a round in the chamber, and no safety! Cocked and locked is as safe as anything, and safer than most.

[Kreyzhorse]

Consider the thousands upon thousands of cops who carry Glocks every day, with a round in the chamber, and no safety! Cocked and locked is as safe as anything, and safer than most.

I'll second that. I have a Glock 22 that is an occasional carry piece. I always carry it with one in the chamber and never give it a second thought. The 1911 however, the first few times I carried it, was a different story. That hammer, cocked, created a little more reservations until I got used to carrying cocked and locked. Totally a "mental" thing on my part created by the visual aspect of the hammer.

[ElectricHellfire]

I carry a Glock now but used to carry a Kimber cocked and locked. I had no problems with carrying that way but I used make my hunting buddies "nervous" riding around in the Jeep with it that way. Ignorance.
Its safe just follow basic rules and get your finger off the trigger.

[M1911]

Now maybe it's my inexperience but it just seems to me that carrying a handgun with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked even with the safety on mightr be dangerous.

I carry my 1911 cocked and locked. A holstered gun is a safe gun. The only way it is going off is if you draw it, depress the grip safety, lower the thumb safety, and pull the trigger.

There is a very small chance that it could discharge if the nose of the sear breaks, but that is highly, highly unlikely.

If you are nervous about it, for the next week wear it around the house in a holster with the gun empty, but the hammer cocked and the safety on. At the end of the week, you'll see that the hammer has not fallen.

If you haven't already done so, I strongly suggest that you get some training. Start with an NRA Basic Pistol class. Then take a defensive training class like Gunsite 250, LFI-1, etc.

[Mycle]

As usual you guys always give me something to think about, great advice. I like the idea of a thumb break holster that places the strap between the hammer and the pin, at least until I become more knowledgeble and comofrtable with the gun. I am also very interested in a gun handling class, but where would I find this type of thing in my part of Florida (northeast). Thanks again.

Mycle

[Playboypenguin]

I think that the gun is completely safe when being carried. It is when you are taking it out of the holster for the night or trying to unload it when it gets dangerous. I think that is when people make the most mistakes.

[BigV]

As usual you guys always give me something to think about, great advice. I like the idea of a thumb break holster that places the strap between the hammer and the pin, at least until I become more knowledgeable and comfortable with the gun. I am also very interested in a gun handling class, but where would I find this type of thing in my part of Florida (northeast). Thanks again.
Mycle

This should get you started…


Cirillo's Tactical Handgun Training
1211 Venetian Way
Panama City, FL 32405
Jim Cirillo, Instructor

Defensive Shooting Instructors
PO Box 670612
Coral Springs, Florida 33067-0612
786-299-6057
[email protected]
http://DefensiveShootingInstructors.com

Defensive Training for the Armed Citizen (DEFTAC)
5712 Folkstone Lane
Orlando, FL 32822
407-208-0751
[email protected]
http://members.aol.com/deftac03

Jon A. Custis, Instructor
Defensive Training Group, Inc.
9200 NW 39 Ave, Suite 130
Box 147
Gainsville, Florida 32606
352-318-5308
http://www.defensivetraininggroup.com

HomeSafe Protective Training
5100 Burchette Rd., #3403
Tampa, FL 33647
813-979-7119 Beeper: 813-673-7016
Bret Bartlett, Director
Options for Personal Security
PO Box 489
Sebring, FL 33871-0489
877-636-4677
http://www.optionsforpersonalsecurity.com

Andy Stanford, Director
Personal Defense Institute
2603 NW 13th St., #205
Gainesville, FL 32609
904-378-6425
[email protected]
Jeff Dissell and W.L. Fisher, Instructors

Rogers Shooting School
1736 Saint Johns Bluff Rd.
Jacksonville, Florida 32246
904-613-1196
http://rogers-shooting-school.com

Sames Israeli Instinctive Shooting School
11142 Bridge Creek Drive
Riverview, Florida 33569
813-741-2080
Theodore A. Sames II, Instructor
[email protected]

Universal Shooting Academy
4300 Highway 630 East
Frostpoint, FL 33843
305-688-0262
Frank Garcia, Director

[Mike40-11]

Here's another idea for comfort level. Get a holster, IWB, OWB, whatever fits you best. Around the house, unload the weapon and carry it cocked and UNLOCKED. Leave the safety off. Really. If you don't have a holster, and you can do it semi-comfortably, just stick it in your waistband. You'll find at the end of the day that the hammer has not fallen. Unless your underwear bunches up real weird, I guess.:rolleyes:

Obviously, I would never recommend carrying it loaded that way (no holster) as nothing is protecting the trigger when you're drawing.

[Mycle]

Hey BigV Thanks alot, that's more than enough to get started.


Mycle

[MikeyConti]

I've always wondered the same question with 1911's. Also with glocks, but what everyone has said makes sense as long as your comfortable doing it. I cant wait to get a 1911, although I cant carry it as I'm only 18. :(

[gvf]

The difference between a 1911 cocked and locked and a Glock or revolver is the double action of the latter (or in Glock's case really a 1 1/2 Action)- the dual action requires both a greater distance of trigger movement prior to release and a greater finger effort because of the increased resistance, than does an SA gun. This is not to say you can't carry a 1911 cocked and locked, but the difference is considerable once the safety is off on the 1911 - a short, light trigger movement and release. At that point, it is exactly like an SA revolver after it is cocked. This is an important difference, and why 1911s and SA revolvers require skill built up by training before they can safely be used as SD weapon. As someone pointed out, they are not for the novice to buy and start carrying the next morning. No gun is but an SA is especially not.

[Shaun]

A long time ago i had these same questions, now after some time, i look back on my way of thinking about 1911s and shake my head. I can't believe I was every hesitant about carrying it cocked and locked. In my honest but slightly biased opinion, I think a cocked and locked 1911 is about a safe a gun as any...maybe even safer than a glock ;)

A glock or similar weapon is ready to fire without a safety, just a pull of the trigger and it goes boom. The safe action trigger does prevent a AD if someone slaps the side of the trigger with say a long stick, but its still part of the trigger (this fact alway irked me). A 1911 has a grip safety, you can bang on the trigger all day with the aforementioned stick and nothing will happen. A glock is safe but a 1911 is safer, sorry, nuf said.

In rebuttal to previous statments, a 1911 with the safety disengaged is not nor would i ever compare it to, a single action pistol with the hammer back. A single action pistol has no safety, no grip safety, no drop safety, no hammer block, no transfer bar(save newer rugers and taurus and yes i am aware that older 1911s dont have firing pin blocks either but newer weapons do). These alone seperate the two guns by miles. To test this, all you amateur mythbusters out there, take a loaded SAA and a 1911 with a round in the pipe. Now take the guns with the hammers back and the 1911 "unlocked" so to speak and toss them down a flight of stairs Slinky style. Most likely nothing will happen but if you do hear a boom im 99% certain it was the single action revolver.

When i carry a 1911 it is cocked and locked, I believe an unchambered semi-auto is useless is a SD situation. That being said I have seen people draw rack and fire very very fast, but it requires two hands and extra movement. If you are lying on your back or your arm is broken or has been ripped off by rabid wolverines and you are carrying on an empty chamber, you might as well carry a lead weight around on your belt.

When i got my first 1911, cocked and locked was new and kind of intimidating, but i tested it in the same way described. I wore the gun around the house all day unloaded but c&l. i got in my car, i moved around in the seat, i bent over to get stuff, i ran up and down the stairs, i jumped up and down, i flopped onto the couch. I did all the thing I normally do and some that were abnormal but not uncommon. Since then i have, without a moments hesitation, carried a 1911 with the hammer back and safety up inside a holster and inside the waistband. Something i would probably never do with a gun that lacked an active safety.

When the stuff hits the fan, you will most likely not have enough time to draw rack aim squeeze. If a 1911 is your primary carry weapon, carrying cocked and locked is the ONLY way to go. If you cant make yourself carry cocked and locked: Get another gun, heck get a Glock, rumor is, they can be safe.

[knzn]

Now maybe it's my inexperience but it just seems to me that carrying a handgun with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked even with the safety on mightr be dangerous

Search around your local area and see if you can come up with an active IDPA or IPSC club. Go play the game to learn as opposed to win. The best favor you could do for yourself in my opinion.

And speaking of opinions - if you are able to hook up with a club, as the newby you will be flooded with advise by well meaning shooters. Just don't try to take it all at once.

[M1911]

As usual you guys always give me something to think about, great advice. I like the idea of a thumb break holster that places the strap between the hammer and the pin, at least until I become more knowledgeble and comofrtable with the gun. I am also very interested in a gun handling class, but where would I find this type of thing in my part of Florida (northeast). Thanks again.

Personally, I am NOT a fan of thumb break holsters. The thumb break can work its way into the trigger guard during reholstering. If you forgot to apply the safety, then that is really bad juju. And the hammer isn't going to fall while the gun is in the holster anyways. So the thumb break is pointless at best and dangerous at worst.

If you really need a retention holster, get a Safariland holster with the rotating hood retention mechanism.

As for trainers, Randy Cain (cumberlandtactics.com) teaches near Orlando on a regular basis. He also teaches at Gunsite and is an outstanding instructor.

[sdj]

And please help me to not but anymore guns.

Definately can't help you there. :D

Safe shooting.

[Mycle]

Thanks again. Here's another interesting article on the subject.

Mycle

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

[sdj]

Mycle:

Excellent article. I especially liked this surprising little nugget:

Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.

Cheers.

Safe shooting.

[Shaun]

Mr. Ayoob's experiment is case in point why a reliable 1911 is a great carry gun. It also is the reason why the 1911 will be around long after i leave this planet. This is a bit off topic, but there is something in the way a 1911 operates that will always attract serious gun people. In its very slight evolution over the past 97 years, the 1911 has shown to be one of the greatest gun designs ever. Like Ayoob stated, any Tom, Dick or Harry can pick up a Glock and put rounds down range, the 1911 requires a bit of know how to draw and fire quickly.

The things people gripe about with a 1911 are what endears it to me as a gunowner. People say it is unsafe, but those people arnt gun people. A 1911, like any gun, is only as safe as the operator. For nearly a century the design of a 1911 has proven itself. From the Battle of Amiens to the streets of Los Angeles it has proven itself as the greatest autoloading pistol ever devised. I once heard that you cant call yourself a motorhead or gearhead unless you owned at least one Alfa Romeo, i think the same thing goes for being a gunlover and 1911s.

I know many people who own guns for target shooting and self defense alike, but the ones that i consider to be the gun purists, the ones that know their stuff, the ones that can spout out the model changes of a Colt Detective Special like some people rattle of their childrens names, those people have, use, and carry 1911s. I happily admit the 1911 is not a gun for everyone, but as a proud lover of firearms, that makes me enjoy the 1911 even more.

[torpeau]

PBP is correct. The best way to carry a 1911 is chamber loaded, cocked, and locked.

What's a reasonable length of time to leave cocked & locked regarding springs?

[tegemu]

Torpeau, there is NO time limit to keeping a spring compressed. Forever is a good rule of thumb.

[Shaun]

compressing the spring doesnt wear it out, its the constant compressing and releasing the compression that wears it out.

[svilla]

Lots of great info in this post! I will add two more things;

I carry IWB and have bumped into somthing switching my safety off. But gun still can't fire as the grip safety and covered trigger are still there to back you up. It was just kinda spooky. :D

And spend the extra $$ on a great gun belt and holster, it will make all the differnce in the world.

[Shaun]

svilla, quick question about your safety incident. Do you have a standard 1911 thumb safety like on a traditional M1911A1 or an extended safety or do you have an extended ambidextrous safety. I have the extended safety on only one side, and the safety is next to my body when holstered. I cant think of a situation where a bump would cause the safety to disengage. I believe your story, i just was wondering about the circumstances. Thanks

[Playboypenguin]

the safety is next to my body when holstered. I cant think of a situation where a bump would cause the safety to disengage.
Your holster shifting the gun against your body could disengage a safety.

[svilla]

It is the Ambi extended thumb safety, On a Kimber Desert Warrior. I don't really know if I bumped something or the gun rub in its holster wrong. I just know it was off. Which in and of its self is not a huge deal, as I know the grip safety works and I know the trigger was covered.

I was just trying to point out that you really have 3 safetys built into the 1911. The safety, the grip safety, and the trigger. 4 if you have a series 80 with the firing pin block. These guns are really safe to carry as designed "Cocked and Locked". And my safety incident is not isolated, it has happened to other people.

[Shaun]

svilla, that is what i expected, i think it would be easier for the safety to disengage if it was an ambi. but i agree with your "backup" safety point.

Your holster shifting the gun against your body could disengage a safety

maybe when the safety rubs up against your chiseled rock hard abdominals Playboy, but me....not so much

[Playboypenguin]

maybe when the safety rubs up against your chiseled rock hard abdominals Playboy, but me....not so much]
In my case it would be more likely that I bumped something and it set off just the right ripple pattern in my love handles to move the safety. :o

[shortwave]

thats good PBP and glad to see you aren`t playing in traffic:D