Why do special forces use non-SA pistols?

[nick_the_guy]

Just curious why so many elite units like the Navy Seals, SAS and such choose non-single action (only) pistols? My brother-in-law is a narc and he hates guns so I can see why heavy double-actions are required for people who don't train on a regular basis (he only trains enough to qualify). But these units are expertly trained to kill so what do they see as the major advantages of weapons like the P228?

[hoytinak]

I know a lot of them here use 1911's. :cool:

[The Tourist]

Isn't our present SOCOM a derivitive of an H&K Model 23?

[BillCA]

Maybe that's true in European countries more so than in the U.S. The last time I had the pleasure of talking to special forces guys, they preferred the 1911 or even the Browning HP pistols. For highly trained units, the trigger on a SA pistol provides much more accuracy.

For most units the handgun is a secondary (or even tertiary) weapon. The Seals may use different arms based on the mission profile (i.e. lots of water submersion) or the anticipated mission requirements.

[Chindo18Z]

Coupl'a reasons:

1. Occams Razor Answer: They use them because they're already bought and paid for since the 1980s. Today's budgets are tight and DOD, MOD, etc. procurement weenies bought a lot of pistols back in the 1980's when DA/SA uber-nines became all the rage. There weren't really a lot of non-SA choices until then (S&W 39/59, Walthers, a few others). Majority of US, UK, French, Italian, & Soviet weapons were SA. The Huns started playing with plastic and various combinations of DA/SA...the rest is history. As older SA weapons eventually wore out (BHPs and 1911A1s), potential customers took a hard look at the latest offerings...presto..the entire US military buys Berettas :barf:.

2. Jeff Cooper's Solution to a Non-Existent Problem Answer: Allows for a revolver-like and deliberate first DA shot. Shooter is less likely likely to ND under stress or while wearing gloves. Since most come with a decocker, reholstering is simplified (shoot, decock, reholster) although applying the safety to a cocked SA is just as simple. Remember that DA/SAs users (at least in the US) were rare cats up until the '80s. Military units (for the most part) simply used the same SA pistols that carried them through WWII or SE Asia. DA/SA was voodoo...until it wasn't. Today, for the majority of young troops, cocked and locked SA is voodoo. Most kids have no idea how to carry or employ a HiPower or 1911.

3. Compromise Feature Answer: Newer DA weapons offer enough other desired features (bombproof reliability, capacity, night sights, rails, etc), that organizations can live within a particular trigger system (whether it be Glock Safe Action, Browning SA, or Beretta DA/SA). The SIG 228 offers a hell of a lot of good features although it will never have the target trigger of a good 1911. The NAVSOF community was also pretty bitter about their Beretta problems and went and procured the other JSSAP contender (SIG) as a lollipop substitute.

4. Not-Quite-As-It-Might-Appear Answer: Some units use both. Mine does. I've carried 1911A1s, M9s, and Glocks on recent deployments to various places. What you carry is secondary to how well trained you are on what you do carry.

Anyway...just my $.02

[LightningJoe]

Probably because it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

[yomama]

I agree with LIghtningJoe, I think. Sidearms really are not used untill everything else is gone.

[oystermick]

HUH? Is the poster referring to DA vs. SA? Is there anothor action I've missed? Tell me, other than double action and single action, what the hell is "non-SA"?

[MontyCop05]

I would gather he was reffering to trigger groups like Sigs DAK, or Glocks Safe Action.....not quite a double action, but not a single either.

[Zombie Steve]

The question assumes that they have a choice. While they have more flexibility than most outfits in the military, there's still a budget.

My friends in 10th group still use M9's. While training Iraqi Police, they were using G19's, as that's what the Iraqi's were using...

The guys I've talked to want .45's / 1911's, but it's down the list of priorities. As pointed out before, if they are going to their pistol, they are having a very bad day.

[nick_the_guy]

My bad, I meant single-action only. Just wanted to know as I'm planning on shooting IPSC next year and I'm weighing my options as to which firearm will be my first centerfire. I wanted to know if these fighting units had a specific reason for using something other than a 1911 or HiPower.

[tipoc]

Nick,

Choose the gun that suits you best.

tipoc

[easyG]

I wouldn't be too concerned with what handgun spec ops guys carry....you have to remember that it's not their primary weapon.
They almost always have rifles, shotguns, or submachineguns as their primary weapon.

For many years the U.S.Army SF guys carried the 1911, but I've seen plenty of them that carried the Beretta after the Army made the switch.

[David Armstrong]

Just curious why so many elite units like the Navy Seals, SAS and such choose non-single action (only) pistols?
Since you clarified as "single action only", I would respond that it probably has a lot to do with the fact that the single-action's alledged superiority really doesn't show up that much in actual combat. The DA works just fine in hostile situations.

[SpiritWalker]

Because most special forces units have little if any say so about what weapons are available to their respective units. Some weenie in an office who may want future favors from some Senate committee member has the final word on what is and isn't going to be procured and issued. There are exceptions of course.

[ragwd]

I asked a friendly LE that very question. Why he prefers the sig dak? His answer
was consistency of trigger pull, First pull thru last is the same. As opposed to SA/DA where the first pull is DA and every following shot is a SA. Personally I am not that good of a shot for something like this to matter.

[davlandrum]

Just so we can speculate about it here on TFL:D

[ghalleen]

My brother-in-law is a narc and he hates guns so I can see why heavy double-actions are required for people who don't train on a regular basis (he only trains enough to qualify).

I have a hard time imagining a cop who hates guns. It just doesn't seem possible...

[tipoc]

I have a hard time imagining a cop who hates guns. It just doesn't seem possible...

It's not only possible it's the case with a couple I've known. "Hate" is too strong a word for the two I've known. Dislike, is more accurate. I can only speak of the two men I've known. But in the case of those two they both had an active disapproval of guns.

With a few exceptions most cops I've known wern't actually gun people and shot only to qualify.

tipoc

[RevolverLover]

I have a hard time imagining a cop who hates guns. It just doesn't seem possible...

You must not know alot of people in LE. ;)

With a few exceptions most cops I've known wern't actually gun people and shot only to qualify.


This is mostly the case.

[easyG]

I have a hard time imagining a cop who hates guns. It just doesn't seem possible...
I don't know about cops, but I met a few in the military who didn't like guns.

I agree, it makes no sense.:confused:

[tipoc]

It's off topic but...For a lot of leos it's a career path they've chosen. They are in the civil service. A good dependable job. Good benefits, good retirement. In many small towns and mid sized cities it's one of the best jobs around. For every cop on the street and swat guy there are 1-2 who sit at desks, watch over the city jail, or county jail, or hope to rise up the heirarchy. For most cops they have no more attachment to their sidearms than they do their flashlights, if they have one. What they are required to carry they carry.

My ex brother in law literally flipped a coin to decide whether to be a cop or a fireman. It was the benefits that attracted him one way or the other. He became a fireman.

My brother has been a cop for 30 years. He's had to draw his gun twice. Never had to shoot. He's been carrying the same gun for 15 years or so. When he became county Sheriff some time back he had to order two of the deputies to clean their sidearms. One had not cleaned his in 9 years he said. He had to be shown how to field strip it. My brother instituted regular firearms inspections twice a year to make sure the deputies cleaned their guns regularly.

tipoc

[YukonKid]

I dunno, it kind of makes sense. You don't have to love guns to love your country and serve in the armed forces. There are always going to be a few people against the grain in everything

as for cops, many of those that i know shoot twice a year to qualify. Being a cop really has nothing to do with guns anyhow. I think its more about helping people. Sure sometimes you would need a weapon, but i would not become a police officer if i just loved guns.

YK

[David Armstrong]

I have a hard time imagining a cop who hates guns. It just doesn't seem possible.
Sure it's possible, and Yukon Kid hit it on the head. Being a cop has nothing to do with guns for the most part. We carry the gun because sometimes we need to enforce our authority or defend ourselves. But most of our real work is done with an ink pen. The gun is just one more tool to help get the job done.

[rem870hunter]

my father served in vietnam in 67. 3rd marine recon. some of the marines that served with him carried and preferred the colt .45 acp. that was the standard sidearm for them at the time. not all of them were allowed to carry a sidearm for whatever reason. the officers the corpsman. and the m-79 grenadier were allowed to carry too. from what he told me the officers can carry a sidearm of their choosing. as long as it meets certain specs. i don't know how true this is. so if you don't like the m9 9mm you can carry a whatever make .45. or a .40 s&w. or whatever meets the specs. if you have your own personal pistol you can carry that as long as it meets certain specs. what they are i don't know. me personally would prefer a 12 or 14 shot .45.

[Elvishead]

nick_the_guy


Just curious why so many elite units like the Navy Seals, SAS and such choose non-single action (only) pistols? My brother-in-law is a narc and he hates guns so I can see why heavy double-actions are required for people who don't train on a regular basis (he only trains enough to qualify). But these units are expertly trained to kill so what do they see as the major advantages of weapons like the P228?

DA is better. LOL

[davlandrum]

from what he told me the officers can carry a sidearm of their choosing. as long as it meets certain specs. i don't know how true this is. so if you don't like the m9 9mm you can carry a whatever make .45. or a .40 s&w. or whatever meets the specs. if you have your own personal pistol you can carry that as long as it meets certain specs. what they are i don't know. me personally would prefer a 12 or 14 shot .45.

Maybe in 1967 they could chose, but I would not think so. The Army is not keen on individual choice :p

[bushidomosquito]

Ammo and magazine commonality is pretty important amongst soldiers. I'd be pretty pissed if I was under fire, out of ammo and discovered that my wounded buddy was a 10mm nut.

[MLeake]

The other major factor is accountability. DoD is very big on accounting for all expended rounds. This is not feasible when people bring their own, so most units aren't allowed to authorize personal weapons.

From what I've seen of SF units, they have more latitude in selection of weapons, but the weapons still have to be approved by higher authority. SOCOM has more discretionary funds available for tailoring of weapons kits than do the other commands, so the SF guys get some pretty neat toys, but they are still officially approved toys.

[TexasSeaRay]

4. Not-Quite-As-It-Might-Appear Answer: Some units use both. Mine does. I've carried 1911A1s, M9s, and Glocks on recent deployments to various places. What you carry is secondary to how well trained you are on what you do carry.

Not sure what the Special Forces (Army) carry, but the Delta guys I knew could carry anything they wanted as a sidearm. Most of them shrugged off the sidearm and settled for whatever everyone else was carrying. Granted, this was right after Beckworth breathed life into them and I was eyeballing the civilian world and exercising my GI bill. I just had the fortune to meet some of the guys--souped up Green Berets is what we used to call them.

I never knew a recon or expeditiary Marine who didn't have a 1911 strapped to them. Used to be in normal (Marine) units, it was only the senior NCOs and officers who carried sidearms, but all the recon guys I ever encountered wore sidearms--especially the tunnel rats.

If there was anyone better with the old S&W model 64 than the Air Force pararescuemen (PJ's), I still haven't heard of them. Those parajumpers had balls the size of volcanos. Talk about your true one-man-army. . . . holy freaking cow. Ask any ex-Air Force pilot from Desert Storm on back to Vietnam or Korea about those PJs. Much of the time, those guys rode the penetrator down to the jungle floor with only a sidearm strapped to them--it was their choice.

In those particular lines or work, it's not the weapon or how it functions. It's the man behind the weapon and how he functions that matters most.

Jeff

[drail]

Spec Ops use anything they want or need.

[Spectre]

Most of the ODA I encountered (early 07) didn't seem overly concerned about it. They did have swoopy 10.5" uppers on their M4s, though...

[MLeake]

I'm not an SF badass by any means. I worked with a mixed batch of Spec Ops types for a while, as air liaison. From what I recall...

SEAL roommate had a choice in his unit of SOCOM .45 or Sig P226. He used the Sig because the SOCOM was too big for his hands. He said his unit had choice of rifle between M4, M16, and M14 for non-sniper or heavy weapons guys. Some liked the M14, but had to carry a separate grenade launcher since the M203 wouldn't adapt to it.

ODA I worked with were pretty well standardized, although they had some latitude. (Being curious, I asked questions) Most carried .45, mix of 1911 and SOCOM. M9 and P226 were also options. No others were mentioned, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist.

Going back to my earlier point, though, ammo expenditures were pretty closely tracked. Bean counters.... they are everywhere.

[tegemu]

Several Special Ops groups carry the 1911. A USMC group had Kimber design one specially for them.

[saspic]

How does wearing gloves affect trigger control? I've never shot with gloves, and I only have one SAO pistol (Colt Delta Elite), but I would think it difficult to get a feel for a short, light trigger with thick gloves.
Of course, they probably practice with all their gear on more than most...

[hoytinak]

How does wearing gloves affect trigger control? I've never shot with gloves, and I only have one SAO pistol (Colt Delta Elite), but I would think it difficult to get a feel for a short, light trigger with thick gloves.
Of course, they probably practice with all their gear on more than most...

Yep, train how you fight. ;)

[Chindo18Z]

saspic: Trigger control issues are not a problem...as long as you wear the right gloves. In my Group, Nomex flight gloves or versions of Hatch products are the preferred (and issued) solutions, but lots of guys just use personal preference driving gloves or various types of athletic gloves.

Lined leather dress gloves, gardening gloves, work gloves, winter insulated gloves, ski gloves, or any gloves with a lot of thickness, stiffness, or padding...not so good.

For many years, military Nomex Aviator "flight" gloves have been the gold standard in the US SOF community. For the same reasons that they provide advantage to an aircrewman (thin & flexible; hand/finger protection with good tactile feedback), ground guys found that these very light gloves allowed one to perform most tasks reasonably well.

They actually provide a good grip interface with a wide variety of weapon surfaces (especially hard polymer or plastic grip panels), allow you to have a more "sure" presentation when hands or weapon are wet and slippery (snow, water, blood, sweat, mud), and protect your hands from burns (hot weapons, flash burns, or hard flame from fuel/ammunition fire). Just as importantly, the gloves offer protection from cuts, scrapes, and contusions. In subdued natural colors, they also offer a simple way to camoflage hands and wrists, blending in with whatever uniform is being worn.

Extended firing tends to fray away the sewing along finger tip seams (especially trigger finger, inside of thumb, and index fingers). This is caused by repetitive friction against triggers, trigger guards, safeties, slide stops, etc.

Re: Train as you fight...

During range sessions, my guys spend about 90% of the time in full kit (1st & 2nd Line, plate/soft armor, helmets, etc.). We normally allow folks to go light (1st line gunbelt only) purely for warmup pistol marksmanship drills during a workup. Even then, almost everyone wears their gloves.

The first time you try firing with thin gloves, they feel a little uncomfortable. After the first session or two, you naturally adjust and simply forget about them.

After a while, not having your gloves on produces the same kind of naked feeling that a religious seat-belt user might experience when he/she occasionally forgets to buckle up.

Just my 2 Cents...

[saspic]

Excellent! Thanks for all the information, Chindo18Z

[Rifleman 173]

Actually, some of it depends upon who trains you and what you learn. Once you've learned to use a 1911 or Sig P-220 in .45 caliber you feel comfortable with the one that you trained. Once you trained and then continue to practice with your handgun, rifle or shotgun you begin to feel "comfortable" with it. The more rounds you put through it, the more you dependable it feels to you. Why change from something you know and like to something that you know nothing about or aren't sure?

[Murdock]

Marine special units kept the 1911A1 until they all wore out, then they bought Kimbers. The Kimber Desert Warrior is built per UMSC specs.

[overkill556x45]

I wasn't in SF, but I worked with them on a (very) few joint-ops and talked to them when I could. They have access to a lot of different weapons. Most of the guys I knew carried 9mm Sigs and Glocks. Most didn't care that much because in the military, you only pull out a pistol just before you start throwing big rocks because all your ammo is gone.
Also, some "special units" like EOD had permission to carry local weapons. One idiot even carried a Tokarev TT-33 over his M9 (gotta love the stopping power of a .30 Mauser?) .
Average Joe like me CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BRING PERSONAL WEAPONS. I don't like the M9, but it works, so I use it.

I don't think there was any great reason to switch to the M9, but they did and now we have to live with it. One fine day, we will once again shoot SAO .45ACP pistols and .308Win battle rifles.

[Mike40-11]

They do have a fair bit of latitude. But there's still the "This is what we already have" from the budget folks.

Speaking of ammo expenditures and bean counters, I recall reading "Inside Delta Force" awhile back. When they were training up the first guys, Charlie Beckwith called up one day. Seems he'd been going over some of the training documents and noticed they had "only" fired a million rounds or so rounds the previous month and wanted to know why they were slacking off.

[Allstar]

No special forces that I know carry 1911's. Yes the Seals are carry Sig 226, and Colt M4. M16 and M14 have gone by the wayside because of length mostly. Short barrels for the M4 help when entering rooms. Most of the military is carrying berreta. This is common among all services because of the DOD contract.

[Chindo18Z]

I carried this one in Iraq last year.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/Chindo18Z/ICEBELTOIF3.jpg

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j245/Chindo18Z/IMGA0226.jpg

I will carry the same weapon when I return this year.

Note: Crappy photos from the crappy camera I had at the time...

[Murdock]

It's clear that a number of active duty members have contributed to this post in a very positive manner. I just want to say thank you for putting it all on the line for the rest of us. Semper fi.

[Lawyer Daggit]

I understand that the SAS in the UK use either High Power Browning or SIG P228.

In N Ireland if a hideaway gun was needed they used the PPK.