.45 G.A.P. - What Say You??

[MontyCop05]

Since its initial design in November of 2002, and production starting in 2003, the .45 G.A.P. has slowly gained in use and popularity since its introduction in our great world of firearms and their everlasting companion, ammunition. Presently the New York State Police, Georgia State Patrol, Pennsylvania State Police, and South Carolina Highway Patrol have all adopted the Glock Model 37 and .45 G.A.P. This is primarily due to the fact that the G.A.P. was conceived by Ernest Durham, an engineer with CCI/Speer, at the request of Glock (in their infinite wisdom :D) to provide a cartridge that would equal the power of the .45 ACP but was shorter to fit in a more compact handgun.

-The .45 G.A.P. operates at a higher pressure than the .45 ACP (the same as .45 ACP +P) to make up for the smaller chamber volume.

-The .45 G.A.P. produces ballistics equal to the standard. The lighter .45 caliber bullets produce less recoil than the .45 ACP 230 grain (14.9 g) loadings, but they still retain many of the terminal ballistics advantages of the larger, heavier (compared to smaller caliber bullets) .45 caliber bullets.

-Since nearly all semi-automatic pistols store cartridges in the grip frame, the smaller overall length allows a smaller grip diameter, which means that even a double-column pistol can have a grip that is easily handled by most adults.

-Due to its acceptance by law enforcement and the popularity of subcompact handguns for concealed carry, more manufacturers have decided to produce pistols chambered in .45 G.A.P. As of 2007, Para-Ordnance and Springfield Armory are offering their micro-1911 series in .45 G.A.P. Springfield Armory is also offering its XD line in .45 G.A.P.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Juicemn82/ST3new45chrt1.jpg
.45 Glock 185-Gr. Gold Dot

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Juicemn82/ST4new45chrt2.jpg
Maximum Average Pressure Comparison

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Juicemn82/ST5new45chrt3.jpg
Velocity & Energy Comparison

Now that we have other manufacturers producing firearms in the G.A.P. , do you think that its hear to say? I see some of you are still convinced that the good ol' boy the 10mm is just going to disappear. I’d say you really know that a pistol cartridge had made it mainstream when big boys like Sig and HK are producing their masterpieces in your caliber. I am considering getting my very own G37 soon. I have an HK USP in .45 Auto/ACP (whichever you prefer) and am looking forward to trying out the G.A.P. I had yet to fire one of any kind, and would anticipate a snap more like that of a .40 than say the boom of the .45. I like the fact that you get ballistics synonymous with that of the .45, paired with the higher magazine capacity of say the .40, .357Sig, or close even to that of the 9mm. I prefer a double stack to a single any day. I must say even though I’m a die hard Glock-o-phile, I’m not completely convinced about the longevity of this round, being that its still in its proverbial infancy. Anyone have any thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Experiences?

[sholling]

A solution in search of a problem. I have small hands and the only 45acp I find to be unusable for me is a Glock. The Colt 1911, S&W M&P, Springfield Armory XD, Taurus and pretty much everybody else's 45acps all work for me. I think that most of the rest of the world will come to that realization as well.

[gvf]

It isn't a solution in search of a problem for me. The 37 is great, great accuracy, easy to shoot, to hold, to balance.

The .45 ACP people act like they've got the REAL .45. They themselves are shooting a derivative of the .45 Colt. People shoot what works for them, why must there may be something wrong with the GAP, or needless about it, when it works for a number, and a number of professionals. Why this religiosity about guns and calibers, the "true believers" vs "heretics" that informs more than a few discussions of such topics. Why can't people shoot what they like, without resorting to this stuff.


(By the way, how many police agencies shoot .45 ACP. just out of curiosity? Probably a lot, the ACP being the one actually necessary. Something like 25-30?)

[USMCGrunt]

Not thrilled about it and to be honest, it will probably go the way of the .357 Sig, .41 Magnum and 10mm. It will always have it's share of a cult following but never widely accepted by the masses with ammo being harder to find and more expnsive than the more popular .45 ACP, 9mm and .40 S&W. With the advent of the XD-45ACP, the M&P, HK45, 21SF and other .45 ACP handgun with a more streamlined grip more suitable for smaller hands, I think the .45 GAP has hit the peak of its popularity.

[Officer's Match]

My problem with the GAP is not the round itself. There isn't a pistol chambered in GAP that appeals to me. I thought it would be the 38, but the magazine capacity of 8 leaves me wondering why when a 1911 can hold as many in ACP, and still have a slim grip.

[Zesty]

"I like the fact that you get ballistics synonymous with that of the .45, paired with the higher magazine capacity of say the .40, .357Sig, or close even to that of the 9mm. I prefer a double stack to a single any day."

I don't see how having a shorter cartridge would allow for a higher capacity? It is still a .45 bullet. I fail to see how you will be able to fit more bullets into the same area, seeing as they are both the same diameter.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how that is possible.:confused:

[Officer's Match]

See my post, right above yours.

[gvf]

(The Glock 37 holds 10 +1.)


I think it's fine some people continue to shoot .45 ACP. It was a good transitional round and has fine historical interest, anemic and somewhat inaccurate as it is - (and as overly-complicated as some of the old-style guns that shot it like the 1911, Sig etc. were) - before the recent modern era began with the appearance of GAP, Glock etc. and other such finely designed arms.

I feel for what must be their pain in being passe': passed over by the march of development.

So, no I don't pity them. I understand where their resistance to change originates. And I pray for them.

[TheCaretaker]

It is amazing how fast some will toss away the old and proven for a the latest and greatest.

It is also amazing how long some take to put down their trusty old friend to take a hard look at what is new.

:rolleyes:

[IRock]

No thanks, don't see the need myself.

[DMK]

I can't find anything wrong with the cartridge, but I don't see why it was needed.

What will 45GAP do that .40S&W and .357Sig don't? :confused:

We have this huge lump of auto cartridges that are all about the same in stopping power and penetration (40 S&W, 357Sig, 45GAP, 45ACP). On either end of this curve is 32ACP, .380 on the low side, and 10mm on the high side.

I would rather have seen all that R&D gone to a round that would give us better terminal ballistics in the ultra small pocket guns along the lines of 32NAA. But then, you can't market that round to Police and Govt., just us lowly joe citizens.

At the other end, I wouldn't mind seeing a 10mm necked down to a .355 or .357, 158gr or 180gr bullet. That's also an area that isn't explored by big ammo companies and gun manufacturers. They are wasting too much time reinventing the wheel, then reinventing it again.

[KurtC]

I am sure that the departments listed were offered these guns practically for free, as part of glock's marketing. Saving that kind of $$ often has more appeal than the gun or cartridge.

SA and Para aren't exactly mainstream LE manufacturers. I would be very surprised if Beretta, Sig or Smith & Wesson ever made a pistol chambered for the .45 GAP (like they do for the .357 Sig).

I can't imagine a department calling up Sig and saying "we want 2,000 model P22x pistols chambered in .45 GAP, and we're willing to pay top dollar to get them." ;)

[Socrates]

If someone wants to create a cartridge, get out of the PC box.

185's aren't exactly known for penetration in the 45 ACP world. Maybe LFNs at that weight, but, the 230's, or even 200's penetrate much better when HP ammo is used. How about a 45 Super without the royalty? If you want to use 185s, at least get them going 1300 fps...

[Hard Ball]

'A solution in search of a problem."

AMEN!

[gvf]

So, how many police agencies use the .45 ACP again?

[Yellowfin]

It's an accident waiting to happen. I gather many cops aren't very informed at all about firearms so the chance of an ACP round ending up in a GAP gun or vice versa seems too likely for my liking. Ditto with any of the underinformed civilian market. BAD idea.

[John D]

"So, how many police agencies use the .45 ACP again?"

What does that have to do with anything? (The greater number of police agencies using the round means it's better or something?) If that's the test, then the 45 GAP loses, big time. I can't see what problems the 45 GAP "solved" vs. 45 ACP...it was a good way to create a new gun for folks to buy (many of which are now being discounted on the consignment sale shelf).

As many have stated, it was a solution looking for a problem.

[gvf]

I think it makes perfect sense for those here who like .45 ACP to reject another .45 that they have never shot but has been reported to be more comfortable, accurate, and have less recoil. It's a good way to approach anything new. Keeps you young and open. Even better is to dismiss evidence that others find something valuable in it by assigning disparaging reasons for their choices. "Young at heart" you most certainly are.

Same for me and the stone axe I ccw.

[gvf]

It's an accident waiting to happen. I gather many cops aren't very informed at all about firearms so the chance of an ACP round ending up in a GAP gun or vice versa seems too likely for my liking. Ditto with any of the underinformed civilian market. BAD idea

"The .45 GAP cartridge was engineered to be safely fired in the typical unsupported barrel chamber. The stronger GAP case has more of a safety buffer than both the .45 Auto and .40 S&W in order to protect against out of spec ammo and/or pistols." (besides which it's visibly a different length)

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/petej/compare.45acp.45gap.htm

(For heaven's sake don't go there and read it with a neutral mind or you all will be "Out of Spec". Better to keep your charming sense of Inquiry)

[Sturmgewehre]

I agree with sholling, it's a solution to a non-existent problem. I personally see no reason to own over a .45 ACP.

[Officer's Match]

Sturm, the only interest I'd ever have in GAP is if SA ever does offer the EMP in GAP - that'd be pretty cool for ccw.

[sholling]

.45 ACP. It was a good transitional round and has fine historical interest, anemic and somewhat inaccurate as it is I'd say a 230gr .45acp HST driving a 1" hole 15" deep renders your anemia argument a bit anemic. And the fact that there are a handful of 1911s capable of holding 1" (or less) at 50 yards with a "somewhat inaccurate" 45acp round, and the fact that there are a bunch of 1911s capable of holding 1.5" at 25 yards with their "somewhat inaccurate" 45acps renders your whole assertion as "somewhat inaccurate". ;)

Personally I'd rather keep this discussion on the technical level rather than continue down the Church of Gaston vs the world - mine's cooler than yours direction by asking you how your Glock compares. We're all adults and don't need to go there. The fact remains that the 45 gap survives solely because Glock will not alter their grip design to fit the human hand. If 45gap floats your boat then please enjoy it without putting down everyone else's toys.

[MontyCop05]

It's an accident waiting to happen. I gather many cops aren't very informed at all about firearms so the chance of an ACP round ending up in a GAP gun or vice versa seems too likely for my liking. Ditto with any of the underinformed civilian market. BAD idea.

Yellow Fin, you are partly correct. Many Cops (that I know, or that I work with) have little interest in guns other than the one they are issued. And the interest in said guns is mostly just remembering to bring it to work.:rolleyes: For the most part you have two sides of the fence: the guys that are mostly uninterested, and then you have the ones that are gun nuts like myself. Plenty of guys I work with don't exercise their right to carry of duty.:eek: I am NOT one of them. The guys that are on my side of the fence (i.e. the gun nuts) are all very well self educated on all aspects in the world of firearms. This includes ammunition. While I don't doubt that an accident such as u described could indeed come to pass, I consider the odds highly unlikely. The same type of miss loading of the wrong type of ammo has happened with other calibers as well. I once saw a 9mm loaded into a .40 at a local range. (it wasn’t a cop) Thankfully the range officer was standing right behind him and stopped the mess from progressing.

[Boris Bush]

The 45 GAP is a a very well designed round and if in 1990 when S&W released the 40 S&W, (IIRC Glocks actualy hit the street in that caliber before S&W got them out and the ones S&W put out had problems at first) and Glock would have put the 45 GAP out there to solve the size to power problem, shooters would say "40 what?".

If for some reason the 9mm stops killing for me the way it does or animals get imune to the round, I would just probably get a GAP. The pistols would be the same size (as a 9) and I would have that mental edge over critters, you know the one where they die quicker because the knowledge of being shot with a larger caliber will turn a switch on in their brain that they need to die quicker, even if it is a bad shot.......

[kristop64089]

I think I would buy one, but, I also own .357sig,10mm, and .25acp.

I see the point of the round, as it was an effort to win .45 lovers with small hands, over to Glock..

[JohnKSa]

It is amazing how fast some will toss away the old and proven for a the latest and greatest.

It is also amazing how long some take to put down their trusty old friend to take a hard look at what is new.This illustrates the two biggest problems with the GAP.

1. Many ACP fans see this as an emotional issue, an issue of loyalty and faithfulness. As if there's something wrong with a person who could be unfaithful or disloyal to the .45 GOC (Grand Ol' Cartridge) or as if a person has an obligation or comittment to a caliber that they need to uphold.

2. In spite of the fact that the cartridge uses the same bullets at the same velocities as the .45ACP, there are still many people who somehow don't get that the performance of the GAP IS "old and proven" by virtue of the fact that it's identical in performance to the .45ACP.

The GAP is a decent cartridge that does exactly what it's supposed to--put .45ACP ballistics into a 9mm sized frame. Some people don't see a need for that and fortunately for them there are (and always will be) a HUGE selection of guns in .45ACP. For those who DO see a need, there's the GAP. And though it will likely never eclipse the ACP (or even come close), it has a niche and will probably stick around for a very long time.

It's not a niche I care about and I seriously doubt I will ever own a gun in that caliber, but the fact that it's out there and available for those who do doesn't bother me in the least.

[gvf]

If 45gap floats your boat then please enjoy it without putting down everyone else's toys.
__________________

That's the reason I wrote what I did, it's called parody. And it parodies the immediate rush to find fault with what some don't know or don't like, or rather don't like the idea of, as I doubt many who wrote ever used it;
So, look in the mirror. And stop devaluing what you don't use. You wouldn't likely know if an item is any good anyway, you merely know what you already like.

Go shoot what you like. Your choice is fine. Just give everyone else the same room. As the poster above mentioned: people like a variety of things, and I'm glad the GAP and the 37 I use were offered. They work well for me and some others.

[rdks]

Glock 39 owner here (sub-compact, 45 GAP) and I'm a fan of the caliber.
No, it's not superior to the ACP and it's not supposed to be. It offers similar balistics in a more compact package. That's what I was looking for. I also have the ACP and always will.

As far as the "question that nobody asked", and "solution to a problem that didn't exist" comments.....Please people, come up with some original thinking for once. Those exact comments are regurgitated on every single discussion about the Gap.... It took only one response on this thread.

[Socrates]

The GAP is a decent cartridge that does exactly what it's supposed to--put .45ACP ballistics into a 9mm sized frame. Some people don't see a need for that and fortunately for them there are (and always will be) a HUGE selection of guns in .45ACP. For those who DO see a need, there's the GAP. And though it will likely never eclipse the ACP (or even come close), it has a niche and will probably stick around for a very long time.

Other then the Glock 39, what other pistols are chambered for the GAP?

HMMMM. Let's here more about the 39. 19.33 oz, standard mag is 6? Same barrel length as the 26/27. While Speer's 200 grain gold Dots don't penetrate as much as I'd like, they are considerably better then a sharp stick, or the 185 GAP Gold Dots, which penetrate even less.

I think I may have to take a longer look at this little gun...

[michael t]

I think it's fine some people continue to shoot .45 ACP. It was a good transitional round and has fine historical interest, anemic and somewhat inaccurate as it is - (and as overly-complicated as some of the old-style guns that shot it like the 1911, Sig etc. were) - before the recent modern era began with the appearance of GAP,
I feel for what must be their pain in being passe': passed over by the march of development.


Is this a joke "anemic and somewhat inaccurate " Don't bring your plastic toy to a real target match. You will lose to that inaccurate old round fired by the old styled 1911 with the far better trigger.

"Glock etc. and other such finely designed arms."

Glock shouldn't even be metioned in same sentence with finely designed arms.

Browning and others back then designed fine firearms. Glock designed nothing . And couldn't have made anything except for the early work done by Browning and others.

Glock the orginal spray and pray pistol . Loved by gangbangers everywhere.

[jdc1244]

I think it makes perfect sense for those here who like .45 ACP to reject another .45 that they have never shot but has been reported to be more comfortable, accurate, and have less recoil.

Compared to what round? .45 ACP? :confused:

I know of no one who has ever complained about the delightfully gentle nudge of the .45 ACP round in a 1911. My kids shoot .45 ACP, for heaven’s sake.

I’m sure it’s an excellent round developed for a special gun to be sold in a special market, but don’t refer to is as some kind of ‘improvement.’

[Shane Tuttle]

I think it's fine some people continue to shoot .45 ACP. It was a good transitional round and has fine historical interest, anemic and somewhat inaccurate as it is - (and as overly-complicated as some of the old-style guns that shot it like the 1911, Sig etc. were) - before the recent modern era began with the appearance of GAP, Glock etc. and other such finely designed arms.

I think it makes perfect sense for those here who like .45 ACP to reject another .45 that they have never shot but has been reported to be more comfortable, accurate, and have less recoil. It's a good way to approach anything new. Keeps you young and open. Even better is to dismiss evidence that others find something valuable in it by assigning disparaging reasons for their choices. "Young at heart" you most certainly are.

Not to jump on board with others to refute your claim, but I think your statements are worth addressing with yet another member...

1. Transititonal round? With what, the GAP? It's been the baseline round that others have been trying to use for comparisons.
2. Anemic? I think VERY FEW will agree with you on this. If you want to compare the potentials, rather than what the "stock" performances, then the ACP outperforms the GAP, IMO.
3. Somewhat inaccurate? I think sholling said it better than I can elequently..
4.You "think it makes perfect sense for those here who like .45 ACP to reject another .45 that they have never shot but has been reported to be more comfortable, accurate, and have less recoil." So, you PERSONALLY know some members here that are ACP fans that have NEVER shot the GAP to assert this statement? I guess I can't comment...

Sholling's and JohnKSa's statements are quite similar to my opinions of the cartridge.

As far as the "question that nobody asked", and "solution to a problem that didn't exist" comments.....Please people, come up with some original thinking for once. Those exact comments are regurgitated on every single discussion about the Gap.... It took only one response on this thread.

Maybe there's no better way to state one's truth...

I don't really see the cartridge disappearing. I'm sure there are devout reloaders of the GAP that may keep it alive for years to come. My other thought is as fast as LE agencies jump on the band wagon, how fast would it be put on the backburner when the next "best thing" is on the horizon...

[sholling]

That's the reason I wrote what I did, it's called parody. Then I respectfully suggest a class or two in writing because it isn't what came through in your posting, and your next statement belies your first.
And it parodies the immediate rush to find fault with what some don't know or don't like, or rather don't like the idea of, as I doubt many who wrote ever used it; So, look in the mirror. And stop devaluing what you don't use. You wouldn't likely know if an item is any good anyway, you merely know what you already like.What? We were all asked to give an opinion and it's not my problem if you are too thin skinned to accept that other people have opinions that differ from yours. It's not my job to validate your choices nor do I need permission to have a differing opinion. If you like the 45gap then go enjoy it.

[cold dead hands]

I have 3 big reasons for not bothering with GAP.

No GAP+P. It is already a +P cartridge. It is maxed out at ''standard'' loading. +P .45ACP is no problem.

No GAP+P+. .45ACP can be had as a +P+ too.

No GAP Super. .45ACP guns can be modified on the cheap for this awesome round.

[cold dead hands]

I forgot this reason.

I am up to eight calibers now. It took me two hours to do inventory today.

If I get own all the guns I would like to have then I will wind up with 24 calibers at last count. I really don't need a number 25 that is served just as well by the second caliber I got into.

The ''size'' reason I won't bother with GAP is because .40S&W does just fine in nearly identical grip size and a slight increase in capacity, not to mention it came first.

Besides, I have no interest in carrying a round that was commissioned by the daddy of ''perfection'':barf:

[sasquatch]

michael t --- Glock the orginal spray and pray pistol . Loved by gangbangers everywhere.

Not to mention perhaps thousands of law enforcement agencies.

[kgpcr]

GAP the new 41AE. An answer to a question nobody asked.

[cold dead hands]

I think your idea qualifies for placement in my ''worthless'' cartridge thread.:D

What ever chemicals you are using to think of stuff like that...send some my way. Hehehehe.

[Perldog007]

If I perceived a need for a smaller .45 it would interest me. Sadly I don't.

Really think calibers and loads and platforms are dependent on many variables not least of which is operator and mission.

For me (sitting at my keyboard on my large middle aged butt) the .45 acp does a fine job of being nearby in a capable platform if an emergency befalls the dog compound.

Ditto the other guns I own. Being a shot placement kind of guy, it seems like from what I have read the GAP lends itself to good shot placement in decent platforms.

Me I like cheaper ammo, the larger size does not offend me. Cool concept but way down there on my list of gotta haves. YMMV

I am against it for departments unless they are going to make ammo available to cops free or cheap. LEOs aren't made of money and precious few shoot much on their own time as it is. More expensive ammo can't improve that.

I would rather they still had .38s and all the money that had been spent on newfangled gear since Don Johnson and his Bren Ten er I mean since LEO felt the need for higher capacity sidearms had been spent on practice and training.

So I say new cartridge? Cool! Departments snapping it up when their folks might be served by more training and more regular practice? meh.

[USMCGrunt]

Don't like the .45 ACP because the grip is too big, especially in double stack magazines. Answer, the XD-45. But the grip on the XD is too long for CCW. Answer, the XD-45 Compact. 10 rounds in a weapon IIRC that is smaller than the G37 and 2 more rounds in a weapon roughly the same size as the Glock 38 yet in a common easily available caliber that fits a LOT of smaller sized hands. Now outside of Gaston's ego, why is the .45 GAP necessary again?:confused:

[JohnKSa]

Other then the Glock 39, what other pistols are chambered for the GAP?Springfield XD. ParaOrdnance also offers a couple of models chambered in the GAP, IIRC....why is the .45 GAP necessary again?If you get right down to it, we could all make do with just one pistol caliber. Fortunately we have more of a variety to choose from than just what's NECESSARY. ;)

[cold dead hands]

If you get right down to it, we could all make do with just one pistol caliber.

And it is the .45ACP:D

[TheCaretaker]

If you get right down to it, we could all make do with just one pistol caliber. Fortunately we have more of a variety to choose from than just what's NECESSARY.

I agree with you... BUT ... I really wish much more time and money was spent in R&D allowing for experimental units to be deployed before releasing a new round into full production and release. It seems there is becoming almost a "fad" type mentality to releasing a "latest and greatest" which often serves little purpose then to put a bunch of arms into circulation which you can either not get ammo for, or pay a VERY high premium for it.

Maybe if they waited to release it until after many reviews and such were completed, people would be a little more willing to accept it openly. Also, maybe some of the "DOAs" would never have gone into production at all.

[JohnKSa]

I really wish much more time and money was spent in R&D allowing for experimental units to be deployed before releasing a new round into full production and release.The only real way to tell if a round is going to make it is to start selling it and see what happens...And it is the .45ACPI'd probably go .357Mag if I had to pick just one.

[DMK]

I am sure that the departments listed were offered these guns practically for free, as part of glock's marketing. Saving that kind of $$ often has more appeal than the gun or cartridge.A local PD here just replaced all their .40S&W Glock 22s with the Glock chambered in 45GAP. I just don't get what the advantage here would be, unless they were saving money somewhere.

[Sturmgewehre]

The GAP is a decent cartridge that does exactly what it's supposed to--put .45ACP ballistics into a 9mm sized frame.
Just as soon as you get 15 rounds of GAP into the same size magazine as a 9mm in the same pistol, I'll buy this line... unfortunately the GAP holds no more rounds than the ACP given the same size constraints.

[JohnKSa]

Just as soon as you get 15 rounds of GAP into the same size magazine as a 9mm in the same pistol, I'll buy this line.That makes no sense.

The .40 was intended to get downloaded 10mm performance into a 9mm sized frame and did just that--but that didn't mean it kept the same capacity as a 9mm in a given size gun. You still have the basic problem that the diameter is larger and that means that the rounds take up more space even if they're the same LENGTH as a 9mm round.

I think this is fairly typical of the GAP critics--they're not going to be happy with the round unless it can break the laws of physics...

[Sturmgewehre]

It makes perfect sense given your statement that the 45 GAP is intended to give you 45 performance in the same size pistol as a 9mm. That argument is flawed in that the 9mm holds more rounds. The 45 GAP gives the same ballistic performance as the .45 ACP with a eceptionally minor difference of a fraction of an inch with regards to the overall length. The problem with the .45 isn't the length, it's the diameter (capacity). That's where the GAP totally misses the mark. If it was 1/4 of an inch shorter in length, then perhaps you could have a .45 for midgets.

[JohnKSa]

That argument is flawed in that the 9mm holds more rounds.There's nothing in the statement "45 GAP is intended to give you 45 performance in the same size pistol as a 9mm" that implies the capacity was also intended to be the same as a same size 9mm.

The GAP is designed to get .45ACP performance into a 9mm sized pistol. NO, it will not give the same capacity as 9mm in the same sized pistol, that's a physical impossibility.

There are double stack guns that will give you 9mm capacity in a .45 caliber but they have much larger grips.The problem with the .45 isn't the length, it's the diameter (capacity).The problem with getting a .45ACP into a 9mm pistol IS length. If you don't believe it, try it sometime. The .45ACP is longer than the 9mm and so you need a longer (front to back) magazine. That's why the GAP will fit into a pistol with a 9mm sized frame while the ACP will not.

Capacity has got nothing to do with the reason for the GAP. If you can find me some documentation indicating that 9mm CAPACITY was a stated design goal of the GAP then I'll back off on that.

[youngun]

Seems to me the development of this round just goes to emphasise how effective and widely supported the ACP is. First the gov't makes up the idea of the need for the 10mm - an awesome round - but then realizes awesome rounds take a toll on both ends, so the 40 is invented to put the limited acceptable power into a smaller package. [The GAP would've had no place in this timeline, Boris.]
Glock makes a great rugged duty gun, very little jamming, generally not as accurate as some from my own and others' acct and near impossible to take down and service without a weekend seminar, but the low slide velocity and low bore axis do make it quite serviceable for defense and CQ work, and quick on the recovery. The length (front-to-back) of the grip is insanely overdone for some reason - see Robar and others' work on shortening it - which of course is exacerbated the bigger the caliber and longer the cartridge. I've held double-stack 45's that have a much smaller girth than the G21. In fact, the G21 is the same frame as the G20 (10mm) and I bet the reason they invented the GAP is that it was cheaper to make a new round that would fit in the 9mm-sized Glocks than to make the Glock's grip more reasonably sized. They've done no one any favors except themselves, trying to cash in on the "promise" of an ACP in the more marketable package of the smaller Glock. Would have been interesting to see how well they could sell a redesigned grip on the G30.
If you like it, go ahead and shoot it. If you're just getting into 45's and are trying to decide which to buy, look at the cost of ammo. Plan to shoot a lot of whatever its is you buy. If you're stuck on Glocks AND stuck on 45's AND can't get a comfortable grip around a G30, etc., then you may have won the Lotto. Especially if you don't mind the little 160-185g bullets. To me the whole point of the ACP is 230g going something at or over 830 fps. I don't care to smack my opponents with washers, but that's me.
Me, I can live without a brick on my hip, already have a bazillion cases of ACP to load and find that my hand fits oh-so-sweetly around a nicely made 1911-type with slim grips.
Bottom line, is it here to stay? sure. Glock will continue to ensure that loaded ammo is available somewhere. You can buy 6.5 Win Mag and 7mm RUM ammo if you look for it. Will it ever be reasonably priced, with cases falling from the sky like ACP, unlikely, but only one way to find out. From the tone of the original post, you have enough $$$ to at least get one to play with for a while, so why not?

[cold dead hands]

I'd probably go .357Mag if I had to pick just one.

John, I would be in complete agreement with you if we only had revolvers, but since high cap semi autos are a reality I will take the .45ACP.

[curmudgeon1]

O.K., I guess the only way to tilt this debate towards a conclusion is to be politically-incorrect; the hidden meaning of GAP is Girls' Automatic Pistol. The GAP cartridge will be around as long as there are increasing numbers of Ladies in our Law Enforcement Systems.
i.e., assuming it is not simply an economic issue. No other logical reasons have surfaced here, unless I've missed it.

[IM_Lugger]

Now that we have other manufacturers producing firearms in the G.A.P. , do you think that its hear to say? With Glock's pushy marketing I don't think it's going anywhere...

It's kinda funny to watch .45ACP crowd bashing the GAP since it's basically the same caliber just in a smaller package - which is why it was designed of course! Was the .45GAP REALLY necessary? Of course not! But I'm willing to bet that if .45GAP came out first, there's no way .45ACP would've been invented! Think about "new caliber - .45ACP -it's just like .45GAP only with in a bigger package!" :D

Do I sound like .45GAP fan? Well I'm not! in fact I doubt I'll ever get one, but I do have my first .45ACP on the way (I've always been a 9mm kinda guy ;) ) I reload and will be loading to +P specs (200gr at 1000fps :cool:) which I don't think I can do with the .45GAP. Also there are TONS on guns chambered (incl. a few I like a LOT) in the old .45 Auto Colt Pistol and no guns that I like (so far) come in the .45 Glock...

[MontyCop05]

Some of you are just really caught up on the magazine capacity bit. Yes the G.A.P. does allow a .45 cartridge in the Glock 9mm, and .40 sized frames. Where as the G21 and G30 have a slightly thicker grip due to the larger .45ACP cartridge. One of the main factors behind the G.A.P.s development was to create a .45 caliber cartridge with the same or better terminal ballistics of the .45 ACP in a SLIGHTLY smaller package at HIGHER pressures. The reason for this was to develop a .45 round that was easier to control (less recoil) for shooters having an issue with the .45 ACP. Now I know this is going to ignite more “my kid shoots a .45, or “my grandmother carries a colt commander in a Fobus attached with zip-ties to her walker,” :D but the fact remains that some people, weather you like it or not, don’t like the recoil of the .45ACP. The idea is that the G.A.P. can help those individuals out. Also as I stated earlier, there are many cops out there who have issues qualifying semi-annually with their department issued .45ACP. Now if the G.A.P. remedies said difficulties, who’s to knock it? :confused: Just cause it’s not been around as long as the .45ACP? :confused: And reason would dictate that if a shooter was having no issues with their .45ACP duty weapon, their performance with the .45 G.A.P. should by default, be better than or equal to their performance with a weapon chambered in .45ACP. Keeping in mind the fact that many agencies would like to switch their duty weapons to .45’s but had not done so due to trials, where a small percentage of officers had trouble qualifying. Also changing to the G.A.P. ultimately the G37, this may also remedy the problems some smaller handed shooter may be having with the larger G21. As said by a poster earlier, this is not “the world against Gaston.” If you don’t like Glocks, don’t buy one! The G.A.P. can’t be all that terrible if Springfield Armory adopted it not only in their XD line but their 1911’s as well. But don’t be mad that they attempted to fill a niche in the market. Whether or not the niche, and the G.A.P. that fills it, are here to stay, there is no reason to be all up in arms like they are going to discontinue the .45ACP

[denfoote]

I was thinking about getting a G39, but then I came to my senses with the realization that with a G26 in 9mm, G23 in .40S&W, and a G36 in .45ACP, the acquisition would be a non sequitur. ;)

[IM_Lugger]

One of the main factors behind the G.A.P.s development was to create a .45 caliber cartridge with the same or better terminal ballistics of the .45 ACP in a SLIGHTLY smaller package at HIGHER pressures. The reason for this was to develop a .45 round that was easier to control (less recoil) for shooters having an issue with the .45 ACPWhy would the GAP have less recoil? :confused: if it has the same "terminal ballistics" or power, then it would produce the same amount of recoil as the .45ACP!? I don't think that's the advantage, smaller gun frames is.

[Bullet94]

I have a G37 ( 45 GAP ). I like it. A 45 caliber bullet in a 9mm size Glock. Fits my hand perfect, just like my G17 & G22.

[cold dead hands]

One of the main factors behind the G.A.P.s development was to create a .45 caliber cartridge with the same or better terminal ballistics of the .45 ACP in a SLIGHTLY smaller package at HIGHER pressures. The reason for this was to develop a .45 round that was easier to control (less recoil) for shooters having an issue with the .45 ACP.

I do take stupid pills from time to time, but uh...I think you'd be wrong. If the pressure goes up then the recoil goes up to. It is possible that percieved recoil is reduced because of the reduced, and easier to hold, size of the GAP pistols grip.

If you question my logic, then let me put it to you like this. The .40S&W is a shorter cartridge (like the GAP) and operates at a higher pressure (like the GAP, granted the GAP's pressure is much less) that will fit into a frame that has a smaller grip than the .45. Yet one of the biggest gripes about the .40 is the increased recoil when compared to the .45.

Increased pressure causes the slide to move at a higher velocity and translates as recoil to the shooter. I am going to assume that glock uses the same slides for their ACP and GAP pistols. The GAP is going to recoil more even if you cannot tell difference. Your ability to hold it tighter by getting more grip because of the reduced magazine well size is going to affect your awareness of the increased recoil.

I might be wrong, and anyone should rebut this if so.

the hidden meaning of GAP is Girls' Automatic Pistol.

You aren't to far from the truth. The first review I read about the ''new GAP'' pistol mentioned that it was great for those with small hands while showing a photo of a lady cop who had problems with the ACP framed glock, but was just dandy with GAP frame.

No mention was made about wether or not she had tried a .40S&W, but I am willing to bet that she would have been just fine with it, especially with a little practice. And I am a firm believer that cops should practice no less than once a week. None of this once or twice a year qualification only crap. Practice should be mandated.

I think Gaston's ego is trying to compete with the popularity of JMB. He should get Babel Fish to translate the caliber war threads here. Then he could see that 9mm is just as good as .45 and he could have skipped the whole GAP thing and we would have less to scwabble about:)

I can't wait for the .357 GAP. It will be so awesome to have a bottle necked short .45 with a 9mm bullet. Or how about the .40 GAP? An even shorter and higher pressure version of the .40S&W.

You just never know what will come from the mind of the guy who invented ''perfection'':barf:

[Bullet94]

the hidden meaning of GAP is Girls' Automatic Pistol.


You aren't to far from the truth. The first review I read about the ''new GAP'' pistol mentioned that it was great for those with small hands while showing a photo of a lady cop who had problems with the ACP framed glock, but was just dandy with GAP frame.

I guess that makes the G17, G22 & G31 - Girls' Automatic Pistols too.

[Socrates]

The more I research it, the more I like it. a 9mm glock sized gun, with 45 ACP ballistics. What's not to like???

[sholling]

One of the main factors behind the G.A.P.s development was to create a .45 caliber cartridge with the same or better terminal ballistics of the .45 ACP in a SLIGHTLY smaller package at HIGHER pressures. The reason for this was to develop a .45 round that was easier to control (less recoil) for shooters having an issue with the .45 ACP.The reason was to develop a round small enough to fit in a 9mm sized frame because Gaston flat refuses to adjust the design of the Glock grip to fit the shape of the human hand. Next up he's going to hire geneticists to create a mutant human with a rectangular grip. Homolumberyardus - evolved from apes that climbed trees grown from 2x4s. ;)

http://www.vpsingles.com/pics/teacher.gif
Assuming equal performance then recoil had little or nothing to do with it and chamber pressure certainly has little to do with it. Let me introduce you to our friend Professor Newton who so eloquently stated "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." What this beautifully simple statement means to us is that if an object - say a bullet of X weight leaves the barrel at Y velocity then an equal amount of force is being driven back into the hand of the shooter - recoil. Please note that there was no A, B, or C for chamber pressure because it's irrelevant. ;)

What does come into play is acceleration. An object, say a bullet of the same X mass accelerating to the same Y velocity over a shorter distance will still push back with the same force as the first example however perceived recoil may be greater because the pressure is applied more quickly. However this is a side issue. So in summary... If a 230gr projectile is being driven at 900ft/s from a 5" barrel then Professor Newton couldn't care less if it came from a 45ACP or a 45GAP. :cool:

[Bullet94]

The reason was to develop a round small enough to fit in a 9mm sized frame because Gaston flat refuses to adjust the design of the Glock grip to fit the shape of the human hand. Next up he's going to hire geneticists to create a mutant human with a rectangular grip. Homolumberyardus - evolved from apes that climbed trees grown from 2x4s.

We ( me and the girls ) must be Homolumberyardus because Glock’s 9mm size grip fits me perfect.;)

[sholling]

We ( me and the girls ) must be Homolumberyardus because Glock’s 9mm size grip fits me perfect.;)I'm very happy for you. Sadly I'm not of Homolumberyardus stock because try as I mite I could not comfortably get my hand to around the 2x4 affectionately known as the grip of Glock 20 or 21. :(

[Bullet94]

You might try a G21 SF.

[epoch]

I'm still kinda new here, but I'll go out on a limb here and say that I'd rather have a lower pressure round if the terminal ballistics are the same. I think that would mean it would be easier on the gun. Like I said I don't know much, but if the pressure in the barrel is higher...doesn't that mean it is harder on the barrel?

So in terms of this bullet thread, doesn't that mean that you could load a .45 regular a lot hotter than this new round? and doesn't that mean that if they were both loaded at the same pressure in the barrel, the good old .45 acp would have better terminal ballistics (it would be moving faster)?

Maybe I don't get this new .45 argument, but to me, it doesn't make sense. How can a smaller bullet out perform a bigger bullet if all the same propellent technology is used. ?!???

[sholling]

You might try a G21 SF.Thanks for the thought but I was actually trying out the 21 because they didn't have a 20 in stock and I was thinking about a 10mm (Socrates's fault). The 20 and the 21 are supposed to have the same grip size. It didn't work for me. Anyway I've spent so much money on pistols (1 Kahr, 2 M&Ps and a high-end 1911) in the last 12 months that I'm holding myself down to the two pistols already on my list for next year.

[Bullet94]

The 20 and the 21 are supposed to have the same grip size.

They do and were to big for me so the 45 GAP. But the rumor is that Glock is coming out with a G20 SF. I’ll have to check them out.

[gvf]

? We were all asked to give an opinion and it's not my problem if you are too thin skinned to accept that other people have opinions that differ from yours.

You don't give opinions, nor did many. The OP asked for comments and opinions and discussion on the wealth of information he posted. He hadn't shot it, he was investigating it. You told us what guns YOU use and your confidence the world will follow suit, tossing out anything else. The information posted was never mentioned. This is not having an opinion or a discussion; this is having biases. Too bad, kills inquiry and interesting exchanges.

Ah well... as for .45 GAP and .45 ACP. Who cares, they're two little hunks of metal. People use what they like. That's fine.

The funny thing here is that occasionally some poster will try to get a word in between all the diatribes against GAP - (weird enough as the energy behind THAT is) - and gently offer "I LIKE shooting the GAP" or "The more I investigate, the more I like it" and everyone will completely ignore them, as they hurtle on to more arguments against it - as if somehow the reason for a product's value or lack of it were different than that people like it and find it worth looking into. Shows the weird religious nature of these gun discussions at times, closed mindset, leaping over the very people who like something to PROVE what they like has no reason to exist. So, it has been an interesting discussion after all, ....to watch all this weird psychology projected onto two inanimate little cylinders. The posts were about the posters much of the time.

But the smaller number that were really making intelligent good points, and many of them not planning on using GAP, I really found interesting, JohnSka and others, the poster who brought up expense - a definite problem, and I never thought of the economic effect on LEOs that requiring expensive ammo must have, this from another voice. You'd think they'd purchase for them. Perhaps some do. I only shot a Glock 37 due to the urgings of an off-duty NY State Police Officer who was like a little kid with a new toy at my range- said he and all his friends on the force loved the GAP and the 37. (He was right: this was the first time I shot a Glock when I shot his, and the first time I shot the GAP. I bought the 37 three hrs later). Anyhow, you'd think if he was paying for all his practice ammo he'd have been a lot less of a fan. So, maybe the State Cops in NY get theirs paid for. But everyone should on any LE agency.

Anyway, for those posters and some others: good exchanges! I like the GAP and the gun I shoot it in, so I hope it stays around and more guns are chambered for it etc

[kgpcr]

What are the chances of a .25GAP ?? now that is one that the market is screaming for. almost the same as the .45GAP

[IM_Lugger]

So in terms of this bullet thread, doesn't that mean that you could load a .45 regular a lot hotter than this new round? and doesn't that mean that if they were both loaded at the same pressure in the barrel, the good old .45 acp would have better terminal ballistics (it would be moving faster)?
Yes, .45ACP +P (same pressure as the GAP) will be a little more powerful than the .45GAP... But both calibers compared to 9mm, .40 10mm are low pressure rounds so I wouldn't think t

If you question my logic, then let me put it to you like this. The .40S&W is a shorter cartridge (like the GAP) and operates at a higher pressure (like the GAP, granted the GAP's pressure is much less) that will fit into a frame that has a smaller grip than the .45. Yet one of the biggest gripes about the .40 is the increased recoil when compared to the .45.

Increased pressure causes the slide to move at a higher velocity and translates as recoil to the shooter. I am going to assume that glock uses the same slides for their ACP and GAP pistols. The GAP is going to recoil more even if you cannot tell difference. Your ability to hold it tighter by getting more grip because of the reduced magazine well size is going to affect your awareness of the increased recoil.
personaly I find .40 to have less recoil than .45ACP in the same platform. After shooting a 1911 in both calibers back to back .45 definitely had more kick. But .40 was a little snapier...

About the recoil of ACP vs GAP, I have to admit I've haven't shot the new .45:o but don't see why it would have more recoil. I don't think higher pressure mean more recoil! You get the recoil from the burning/explodeing powder pushing the bullet out of the barrel and since in both cases the bullet has the same velocity and is moving at the same speed recoil should be identical. Pressure is between the powder and the barrel only ;)

[kristop64089]

John, I would be in complete agreement with you if we only had revolvers, but since high cap semi autos are a reality I will take the .45ACP

And on that logic, I would choose 10mm. I would go as far to say It is the MOST versatile auto-loader round. The .45acp is a great man-stopper, but, outside of this the round is limited.

The fact that the cost of this round is rising(as well of the rest of them) is forcing me to sell most of my .45's in favor of other guns.

I can buy a brand new XD GAP with all the gear for $375. Springfiels has discontinued the gun. I'd buy the GAP just for collection purposes. Sadly, I'll probably be down to my 1911 and Hopefully(after christmas) a compact .45(wish they would make one in the M&P) as I cannot validate owning any more .45's

[JohnKSa]

If the pressure goes up then the recoil goes up to. Recoil is proportional to the momentum of the ejecta (powder gases and bullet) and has little to do with pressure.

The recoil of the GAP is less than an ACP round with the same bullet weight and velocity because it uses less powder and there is therefore less ejecta. I wouldn't expect the difference in recoil to be significant.

[Bullet94]

If you’re interested in purchasing a Glock 45 GAP check this out. They sell then new for $400.00 with 2 mags and a laser -

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/dowournewcat.html

[sholling]

kristop64089,
Sadly, I'll probably be down to my 1911 and Hopefully(after christmas) a compact .45(wish they would make one in the M&P) as I cannot validate owning any more .45's
Rumor has it that two new sizes of M&P45 will be introduced at SHOT. A "Commander" and a Compact. I haven't seen either so I can't give you any more details.

[kristop64089]

Sholling, Thank you.

I want only one more .45, but it has to be a compact(for carry reasons) It pains me to trade out of my full size .45's, but they just won't get the "playtime" they deserve.

[dakota1911]

I have no interest in it right now.

[speedracer211]

springfield no longer makes the xd in 45 gap

[gmarr]

This is suppossed to be a forum for the exchange of ideas and experiences. It seems to become something similiar to a hockey game whenever a Glock, or the 45 GAP in particular, is mentioned. Starts out ok then the fights start. After a few minutes no one remembers the score.

The GAP works. Works as good as the ACP. Deal with it. It's also not intended to replace the ACP, it's intended as an alternative to provide similiar performance in a smaller frame size. Just like everyone has a favorite handgun and caliber there's others available that do as good or better a job. Don't put someting down just because you don't like it. I've been carrying my G37 on-duty for three years now. (LEO in Miami.)

Yes, I have (3) 1911's, 2 in ACP., one in 10mm. Also .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 mag, .45 Colt, .380, 9mm Mak, and soon .38 Super.

[JohnKSa]

springfield no longer makes the xd in 45 gapWhere did you hear that? It's still catalogued on their website as XD9504SP06...

[kristop64089]

I've got a couple distributors catalogs(JSC is one) in front of me, and it shows XD GAP as discontionued.

Not a good omen for the round

[JohnKSa]

Not a good omen for the roundOverall there's still one more model on the market in the chambering available at the end of 2007 than there was at the beginning.

Besides, according to Ayoob's article in the Sept/Oct 2007 American Handgunner, Winchester is selling 3 to 4 million rounds of GAP a year and is expecting demand to increase "significantly" based on recent adoptions of GAP handguns by "several state police agencies". The article also mentions that Winchester considers itself "a strong No. 2" in the LE market, trailing only ATK who owns Federal and Speer. Logically then, one would expect that ATK is making and selling as much or more GAP than Winchester.

I just don't see it going away anytime soon...

[kristop64089]

I wish it would take off. I'd buy this XD in a flash for the money he is asking.

Unfortunately, he has been sitting on these all year.( he is a small dealer)

Anybody that is interested in them PM me and I'll get you his info.

[gvf]

In my area, looking randomly at one store, it costs .31 a round for ACP and .36 a round for GAP. This is about the difference between a .38 Special (standard) and .357 Magnum. I pay the extra 6 cents for the latter because the magnum gives me certain benefits - though not cost - as compared to the .38 Special. As does the GAP : it was immediately comfortable, wickedly accurate, and the gun fits my hand like a glove. One benefit is not cost. Although if I buy online in bulk, at least compared to store-bought ACP, there is no difference. So, I can pay a little more but for me, the extra $150-$200 a year, is not of real significance. I spend much more on coffee. (If it is of significance for some, then it's not a good choice obviously.)

The LEO who just posted snagged it all in my opinion:

This is suppossed to be a forum for the exchange of ideas and experiences. It seems to become something similiar to a hockey game whenever a Glock, or the 45 GAP in particular, is mentioned. Starts out ok then the fights start. After a few minutes no one remembers the score.

The GAP works. Works as good as the ACP. Deal with it. It's also not intended to replace the ACP, it's intended as an alternative to provide similiar performance in a smaller frame size. Just like everyone has a favorite handgun and caliber there's others available that do as good or better a job. Don't put someting down just because you don't like it. I've been carrying my G37 on-duty for three years now. (LEO in Miami.)

Yes, I have (3) 1911's, 2 in ACP., one in 10mm. Also .357 Sig, 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 mag, .45 Colt, .380, 9mm Mak, and soon .38 Super.
gmarr is offline Report Post

[Sturmgewehre]

Yeah, but what happens in a SHTF scenario? Let's say civilization as we know it crumbles, zombies infest our cities and it's not safe to go out at night. You're left scouring the countryside in the daylight hours looking for ammo for your Glock. You hit an abandon National Guard armory and all they have is .45 ACP!!!!11!!1! What do you do with your gun now?!?!?!!!11!:

:D

John, you're wrong. It's going away. I looked into my crystal ball last night and it clearly said .45 GAP was leaving the universe on Sept 14th, 2011 at 3:56pm. At that time all handguns will be taken by aliens from the Zeta Reticuli system. This is where the .44 Auto Mag cartridges and guns wound up ya know. :D

[SDDL-UP]

There is a true glut of new cartridges on the market right now, from the 308 Marlin Express to the 500 S&W Magnum to the 45 GAP.

I wouldn't bet on 50% of them to be around thirty years from now.

The 45 GAP does not fill any needs I have.

[easyG]

I like the fact that you get ballistics synonymous with that of the .45, paired with the higher magazine capacity of say the .40, .357Sig, or close even to that of the 9mm.
I can't see much use for the GAP.

With the .40S&W and the .367Sig you already get as much or more power than the old .45ACP, and you still get nearly as much magazine capacity as a 9mm.

I just can't see the need.

[Mark Milton]

I went to the mountain asked the Gun Prophet about it.
The gun prophet is never wrong, you know.
I remember back in the 80s when everybody was laughing at the then-new Glock and he told me that the day would come when every idiot who wanted to be a pistolero would have to have one. Even me.

So, I asks him, "Gun Prophet, what do you think about the .45 G.A.P.
The gun prophet ran his fingers through his long white beard, scratched his bald pate, scratched his butt, and belched and said,
"Tis the .41 Action Express of the future." then went back into the cave.

There you have it folks.

I wondered a bit because we all know how the industry is quick to try and sell us stuff we don't really need. I rubbed the magic lantern, yelled "Shazam!!" and the Gun Prophet came back out.
I asked him, "Are you sure the .45 G.A.P. is the .41 Action Express of the future?"

He looked me straight in the eye and said, "Sonny, didn't you learn anything from the Herters .401 Power Mag?"
I started to ask him if it might be the .41 magnum of the future, but figured I had best not push my luck. After all, I didn't want him to zap my Springfield 1911 with a lightning bolt and make it non- Mil Spec.

[Boris Bush]

Sturmgewehre

If it gets to SHTF, then there should be plenty of battle field pickups laying around. At that point I wouldn't care what I had, resupply is only one dead enemy away at that time anyways............

Dont get me wrong :) I like ya, just thought I would throw that in there.

To be honest I do not have a single .45 anything in my house right now, If I did go for a .45 I probably would get the GAP simply because I have shot 9mm guns for sooooooooo long that the feel would be the same, and I would have the legendary 45 stopping power..... whatever that is.

Alas I have so much 9mm and it has worked for me so well in actual use (not range use, killing use) that I see no need to upgrade as of now.

[Sturmgewehre]

Sturmgewehre

If it gets to SHTF, then there should be plenty of battle field pickups laying around. At that point I wouldn't care what I had, resupply is only one dead enemy away at that time anyways............

Dont get me wrong I like ya, just thought I would throw that in there.
Hopefully you could tell I was joking. ;)

[Sturmgewehre]

So, I asks him, "Gun Prophet, what do you think about the .40 G.A.P.
The gun prophet ran his fingers through his long white beard, scratched his bald pate, scratched his butt, and belched and said,
"Tis the .41 Action Express of the future." then went back into the cave.

Milton, your prophet was spot on. The .40 GAP sucked so bad it hasn't even come out yet! :D

[NGIB]

However, the .45 GAP does give us more fodder for the "best caliber" wars...

[Officer's Match]

Plus before it's introduction I never knew that "GAP" was Austrian for "kurz".

[curmudgeon1]

So, in regard to the future of .45gap; does anyone know of any projections for the numbers of Ladies in the Law Enforcement field for the next, say, five to ten years ?

[gvf]

::

[Sturmgewehre]

Plus before it's introduction I never knew that "GAP" was Austrian for "kurz".

That's odd, I always thought it was an acronym for "Glock Automatic Pistol". :D

[curmudgeon1]

quote: "dead horse.jpg"

O.K. !

[USMCGrunt]

Ya know, I've never done this before but I can see getting a .45 GAP barrel for your favorite .45 ACP pistol and making it work without any problem. Of course why would you want to? However, I can't see if the .45 GAP goes the way of the .41AE anything you can convert a .45 GAP pistol to a caliber that would still be in production. Too large of a breechface to work with .40 S&W or 9mm and too short in the grip to work with .45 ACP. I guess if you're going to convert a .45 GAP pistol into another common caliber is going to mean replacing the slide and barrel and then only into .40 S&W or 9mm.

[Bullet94]

I think there are a few GAPophobes posting here.

GAPophobia:
An innate fear of the use by anyone of the .45 GAP cartridge in preference to the .45 ACP cartridge.

[MrAnteater]

I'm all for new rounds. Keeps the sport interesting and current.

How can there be too many calibers or guns? :D

I would own one of everything if I could afford it!

[Bullet94]

MrAnteater - You certainly are a gun man!!!

[gvf]

http://www.ryanmcbain.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif

[auto45]

I think a single stack, ACP Glock introduced today would vitually end the GAP sales, except for police departments that want a Glock, higher capacity and a 45.

If the 40 wasn't such a large seller, I think the GAP would do pretty good.

Personally, I'd choose a GAP over a 40 if I had to choose.

[Socrates]

Glock 36???
:rolleyes:

YOu mean full size, I gather.

For CCW, the Glock little guns and the GAP make a LOT of sense, and, I originally would not consider anything but 45 ACP, or 10MM either.

[Wulfmann]

Kind of odd that Glock has the smaller handled G36 single stack in 45ACP but the smallest 45GAP is a double stack (G39).
The G39 is slightly shorter but for concealed purposes the gun is considerably wider and the handle thicker.:confused::rolleyes::confused:

Seems to me a single stack 45GAP sub compact would make the most sense.:cool:

Wulfmann

[Officer's Match]

Seems to me a single stack 45GAP sub compact would make the most sense.

Now that you mention it, a Kahr in GAP does make some sense...

[kgpcr]

Only Gastons ego would think he could one up JMB!!

[cold dead hands]

Now that you mention it, a Kahr in GAP does make some sense

I am kinda willing to agree with that provided they make one in their MK format. An MK 45GAP might find it's way into my carry routine provided it was a least 5 shots with a flush mag and six shots with the extension.

BUT...then again I would prefer they stick with an MK 45ACP so that I don't have to buy yet another cartridge and I want to have the option of +p for CCW and maybe +p+ (and if I was to lose my sanity, a .45 Super) for a first shot. That just isn't going to happen with a GAP gun.

[easyG]

Seems to me a single stack 45GAP sub compact would make the most sense.
I agree.

But what would it offer that a single-stack .40S&W or a single-stack .357Sig does not?

[Bullet94]

Here's mine.:D

[IdahoG36]

I think that like the .357 Sig, the .45 GAP was a good idea that will never really become mainstream. I don't have any real experience with the GAP, but it sounds valid on paper. I just don't think that it will reach the status of the 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.

[rgillis]

Wow Monty, you ask one simple little question and look what happens.

I've been pondering the whole GAP question for a couple of months. Firstly, I must say that I like Glocks, I know they are not for everyone, but they work for me. I recently had an opportunity to shoot a Glock 37 and I have to say, I really liked it. Being afflicted with the curse of small hands the G37 is a double stack .45 that really worked for me. (I still for the life of me cannot understand why Glock cannot come up with a full size handgun with a single stack mag that will hold 8-9 rounds.) But that is a whole other issue.
Will the G.A.P. ever catch on? I have my doubts. But I still may add one to the stable anyway.

[kgpcr]

I think the GAP is dying a slow death. Around here they cant give them away. the only thing keeping it alive at all is some Depts got them for almost free from Glock. With out that they would be done already!

[Desertscout1]

I think the GAP is dying a slow death. Around here they cant give them away. the only thing keeping it alive at all is some Depts got them for almost free from Glock. With out that they would be done already!
Purely speculation with zero facts to back it up. The GAP is my 3rd best selling caliber in Glock. 3 companies now make 7 models of .45 GAP. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.

[kgpcr]

For 95% of us they serve no purpose that is not already filled nicely. Maybe the 5% will keep it alive who knows? i just think its a dead horse.

[easyG]

The GAP is my 3rd best selling caliber in Glock.
I'm curious.....where exactly did you get this info from?

I have my doubts as to its validity.

[HammerBite]

I'm curious.....where exactly did you get this info from?

I have my doubts as to its validity.
I suspect that a gun dealer probably knows what he sells.

[Shane Tuttle]

Purely speculation with zero facts to back it up. The GAP is my 3rd best selling caliber in Glock. 3 companies now make 7 models of .45 GAP. I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.

Of the three, one is really pushing for the sales of it since they came up with the cartidge (Glock). If you include Springfield Armory in one of your three I think they pulled the plug on producing XDs in the GAP. And only 7 models between 3 companies is just plain absymal in terms of providing wide availability of choice to the consumer.

Third best seller? As an example: 9mm is the best with, say 50 sales... .45ACP second with 40...and GAP at 5? The local shops in my area can't get rid of them and if they so happen to have a gun in GAP, it gathers quite the dust bunnies...

I think with all the numbers of LE agencies carrying the GAP issue is just plain tainted as all get out to use as a baseline on the future popularity of the cartridge. I will concede to the fact that as long as LE has to use the GAP, the cartridge will hang around. However, I think since in the consumer market it's not quite building steam like the .40SW appeared to do eventually.

In my little dream world, I think one would get a better idea of what LE agencies prefer to have chambered in their guns if each INDIVIDUAL could choose what they want to have. No matter the cost. I think there would be quite the surprise on who would come out on top if each cop could decide what he/she wants to carry. This includes gun brand AND cartridge.

[orionengnr]

...the only interest I'd ever have in GAP is if SA ever does offer the EMP in GAP - that'd be pretty cool for ccw.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

...Except for the fact that I already own an EMP, and while it is a jewel, it is only slightly smaller than my Kimber UC, and is not one bit lighter (both are 24 oz).

So I guess I don't see any advantages either.

Now if you could chamber it in a Kahr PM9 size (and weight) pistol, you might have something...

[saspic]

Are people even aware of this pistol? It sounds kind of heavy at 29 oz., but they say it, too, has the circumference of the grip reduced.

http://www.paraord.com/product/product.html?id=105

PXT LDA Single Stack Carry Option Series
Model: Carry GAP

The award-winning Para Carry, measuring just 6.4 inches long and 4.75 inches high, has now been chambered for the new GAP cartridge. The Carry Gap still has the stopping power of the .45 ACP, but utilizes a smaller cartridge, reducing the circumference of the pistol frame. This compact pistol also proves to be remarkably controllable, thanks to the Griptor grasping grooves and smooth pull of the LDA trigger.

CWX645G
Caliber: .45GAP
Capacity: 6+1
Barrel: 3"
Weight: 29 oz.
Overall length: 6.4"
Height: 4.75"
Hammer: Spurless
Sights: 3-Dot
Finish: Steel Covert Black

[Officer's Match]

I shot a Carry 9 today, which is similar to the Carry GAP. I did like it alot. My only complaint is the slide was actually a little difficult to retract. Combination of the unusual "griptor" grasping grooves which to my eyes look pretty cool but for me don't offer a good grip, and pretty dog-on stiff recoil spring - and this was a 9. I gotta' imagine the GAP is pretty stiff too, although it is 5 ounces heavier, which may be in the slide which would reduce the spring rate needed.

[Army GI]

Unless the military or some other large government agency officially adopts the 45 GAP, there is no reason for it. The whole point of it is to modernize the 45 ACP. It uses less materials (lead, brass, etc) to manufacture in volume, it's short enough to fit in a 9mm-framed pistol yet you get the effectiveness of the 45.

But now, only a few niche police departments and hobbyist like us here on the boards shoot the 45 Auto for recreation.

[Socrates]

I REALLY don't get that part. If you are recoil sensitive to the heavier bullets in 45ACP, why not just go to the lighter, 165 grain bullets? You get a big hole, 9mm like recoil, and decent velocity.

GAP, since it uses less powder then the 45ACP, even with the same bullet weight, should recoil a little less. I for one, would LOVE to have a Kahr sized 45, that weighs 18 oz.

A slimline Glock, single stack would be great as well. I need the smallest, most powerful package I can find.

[Army GI]

Soc,

-The 165gr bullet is not known to be very effective in .45 caliber. You have to have the right balance of weight and size to have an effective bullet. Too light and it doesn't penetrate well. Too heavy and it gets nowhere. Hunters have a fancy name for this, it's called sectional density. Most people consider the 185gr the lightest end of the spectrum with the 230gr the best choice usually. Remember, 45 Auto load with the best police record is the Federal Hydrashok with a 230 grain hollowpoint. By the way, this is at standard velocity and is only a few points short of the 357 Magnum.

-45 GAP might use less powder, but the powder is more powerful per unit so you actually develop higher chamber pressure than a 45 ACP.

-If using equal bullet weights at similar velocities, whatever is fired from the lighter gun will have the most felt recoil. Heavy calibers and lights guns don't really go very well.

[Desertscout1]

I didn't read every post in this thread because much of it is just too silly. However, I did run across this quote...
springfield no longer makes the xd in 45 gap
which is not accurate. There are 7 models of the GAP currently being made by 3 manufacturers. They are all currently listed and available in at least 3 of my distributors catalogs. I don't know where you're looking but they ARE out there.

[kgpcr]

3rd best selling caliber?? I woudl call bull**** on that one. maybe one gun shop where the cops use them but not nationaly!

[easyG]

I suspect that a gun dealer probably knows what he sells.
It does not matter that a particular gun dealer sells alot of .45GAP Glocks.....

It matters what Glock sells as a company.

And I don't believe that Glock sells more .45GAP pistols than it sells 9mm, .40S&W, and .45ACP pistols.

In fact, I would even hazard to guess that Glock sells more .357Sig pistols as well, making the .45GAP a solid number 5 in sells.

[Desertscout1]

3rd best selling caliber?? I woudl call bull**** on that one. maybe one gun shop where the cops use them but not nationaly!
I would assume that English is your 2nd language so I'll type this a little slower for you.
Yes, I said 3rd best selling caliber. Yes, I said in my shop, not nationally. No, there are no LEA's or LEO's around here that use the GAP. Yes, my books are available for you to check this FACT anytime you wish. Yes, to check my books, you will have to come out from behind the relative safety of your computer monitor to do so.

[Desertscout1]

OK, here's the numbers. I have sold 524 Glocks in the last 3 years. I didn't count the .40's and 9mm's but they VASTLY exceed everything else. However, the GAP is safely in 3rd.
The following numbers are just Glocks...
10mm - 13
.45 ACP - 7
.45 GAP - 26
.357 SIG - 11

GAP's rarely sit on my shelf for more than a week or so and often not that long. And it's not because I try to sell them because I have no use for either the ACP or the GAP.

As I said, the books are available for your perusal.

[easyG]

I'm surprised that you sell that many.
Considering your location, could it be Mexicans who are buying them and taking them back to Mexico, or guys selling them in Mexico?

I only ask because I have heard it said (don't know if it's true or not) that in Mexico it is illegal for civilians to own handguns in military calibers (9mm and .45ACP).

Does anyone have the real scoop on this?

[Desertscout1]

No, best I remember, I've never sold one to any Mexican whether they lived here or there. You are correct about military calibers in Mexico...Thou shalt NOT!

However, the most popular centerfire handgun caliber down there, overwhelmingly, is the .38 Super and I have sold a few of those to Mexicans that in turn took them back to Mexico
.
All the GAP's that I have sold have just gone to normal, every-day Joe's locally.

[klausmotown]

First time poster, but I have been reading the forums for many months now, as well as THR and others. Amazing wealth of information and opinion.
I have owned a 4" 45 GAP XD for about 2 years now. One of the nicest shooting, reliable, easy to maintain guns I have out of 7. Everyone who has ever shot it enjoyed it and was accurate. In South/mid- SE michigan, I have never had a problem finding ammo, it has never been more than 1.50 more than ACP prices anywhere I have seen it. I'll give you that there may be only a couple boxes of GAP compared to several ACP wherever, but it is there. Gander Mountain, Dicks, all my local ranges (not Walmart however, but the person I talked to said they would order it for me if I wanted). My father, brother, and a friend (Marine sniper just back from the sandbox) all loved it. All 3 have 1911s and 1 has an M&P 45. I recently purchased online 500 rounds 230 grain Rem UMC JHP for 175 bucks. Can get Ranger Ts for $229 per 500. Federal LE Tactical HST 45 ACP are $10 more per 500.
Yes they are less popular. My experience has been that ammo wise they are not harder to find or " so much more expensive than ACP". And they certainly don't suck. Even without +P loads I feel pretty damn confident this round will do the trick. Feels to me, much better in the hand than my Dad's colt, my brothers Kimber, and my friend's Springer Operator. All of which I think are awesome guns ( the Operater is next on my list). All of this is my own personal opinion.
I prefer My CZs for carry ( P-01, P-06, RAMI 9) but I have so far been blessed with a trouble free Ruger GP 100 4", Bersa 380 CC, XD 45 GAP, and a Taurus PT111.
My advice is try it, and not worry bout internet heresay. If you don't like it don't buy it. I can't believe how many times I have hear parroted from one article the qoute that pops up in every GAP thread I've ever read, and I think I have read all of them. An answer to a question noone asked. I remember reading that very article about 3 years ago. Pretty sure departments test guns and calibers extensively before they adopt them department wide. If the GAP sucked, noone would use them, even if they are offered super cheap. My .02.

[Shane Tuttle]

OK, here's the numbers. I have sold 524 Glocks in the last 3 years. I didn't count the .40's and 9mm's but they VASTLY exceed everything else. However, the GAP is safely in 3rd.
The following numbers are just Glocks...
10mm - 13
.45 ACP - 7
.45 GAP - 26
.357 SIG - 11

Sooooo....out of 524 Glocks, 26 of them were GAP models sold? In three (3) years? 467 other models sold weren't GAP. I don't view that as safely in third in sales....unless GAP's finish in a 100m dash is represented by Homer Simpson and the other models are Flo-Jo and Carl Lewis...

GAP's rarely sit on my shelf for more than a week or so and often not that long.

So, are you having troubles with your distributer due to only receiving 26 models in 3 years? Man, if that's the case, let me know by PM. I think I can give you a couple of shop owners' phone numbers that may work out a deal here to get them off their hands....

[kgpcr]

26 out of 524 is pretty piss poor for such a star caliber!!! I bet the reason you have sold that many is your local cops carry gap! I bet you bad mouth the ACP and make them feel bad if they want one and push the crap out of the GAP.

[MontyCop05]

I bet the reason you have sold that many is your local cops carry gap!

kgpcr,

Go back up the page and read DesertScouts post. He had already stated that the LE agencies in his area DO NOT carry the G.A.P. Dare I suggest that you s l o w d o w n and read what is posted before you do the same. Why not wait and see if Scout can elaborate? Why jump at the chance to flame? This is getting to the point where some are no longer posting opinions, but posting their personal hatred, and lack of acceptance of the fact that some may actually like the G.A.P. cartridge.

As I started this thread, its nice to see that it has fueled much debate, however it was not meant to be a pissing contest for die hard .45 ACP-ers to take on the world. I too own, shoot, and love the .45 ACP cartridge. That's not going to change just because Gaston came up with a bright idea. However I am not so closed minded that I just shove the G.A.P. off into the corner with the .41AE. I am willing to give it a fighting chance, while not pointing fingers at the guy thats selling them.

[Desertscout1]

Ya' know, it's hard not to take the risk of getting banned when you deal with know-nothing wanna-be gun experts sometimes. Let me see if I can address this and stay civil...

Tuttle8, You are either incredibly mathmatically challenged or you have a difficult time just distinguishing number shapes. After the .40's and 9mm's, yes, the GAP is SAFELY in 3rd place. Look at the numbers, for crying out loud! Or maybe get someone to read them to you. 26 is bigger than 7, 11 or 13. Since I already said that the 9's and 40's took up 1st and 2nd, that makes 26 the next largest number and, in 3rd place for Glock sales. Since I took this store over the year the GAP first came out, I don't suppose that's all that bad for a cartridge that no one had ever heard of up until then.
No, I don't have any trouble at all ordering them. I can get them anytime I want. I order as many as I think will sell in any given time period. Quite naturally, they don't sell as well as some of the other ones so I don't order as many. I never said the GAP competed with anything else. I just said it was 3rd best seller in Glocks. Your dealers are not having a hard time getting rid of them unless their sales people are unknowledgeable morons about calibers, as so many people are.


26 out of 524 is pretty piss poor for such a star caliber!!! I bet the reason you have sold that many is your local cops carry gap! I bet you bad mouth the ACP and make them feel bad if they want one and push the crap out of the GAP.
LOL! I'm not quite sure what to say to you, kgpcr. You obviously have an ego that you have to stroke every so often. Since you have obviously lost the first round of debates, now you're trying to make something out of nothing. No one ever said it was a start caliber compared to anything else. No one cares that 26 is small portion of 524. It is still my 3rd best seller. I'm having a difficult time understanding what is so hard to understand about that. Personally, I don't think it's all that bad considering the length of time that the other calibers that the Glock is chambered in have been around. No, I'll say it again, ZERO cops here carry the GAP.
For not knowing me at all, you're pretty bold and prety rude with your remarks. There are so many guys like that though that use the computer monitor to hide behinf=d and make comments that they cannot back up.

I told all of you that my books are available for anyone that wants to see them. Put up or shut up.

[Officer's Match]

DesertScout, I wouldn't worry too much about the matter. Certain topics just seem to be beyond the enthusiast's ability to remain rational. For me personally, the 39 is the model that makes the GAP a desirable round. I don't have one (yet), but wouldn't criticize someone who likes the GAP. As I said, why waste you time battling this issue?

[Socrates]

I'd like to see some real world ballistic results of the 45 GAP out of the G39, with a 3.48" barrel.

Wonder if the Glock is like the 45 ACP, which really doesn't seem to get loaded well for sub 4" barrels?

[Shane Tuttle]

Tuttle8, You are either incredibly mathmatically challenged or you have a difficult time just distinguishing number shapes.

No need for the condescending remarks just because others may be jumping your case. I really wanted clarification as to why the assertion of being apparently happy to say 26 GAPs is a solid third place in sales. Yes, I do know the 9 and .40 is counted before the GAP sales. And, I clearly stated that if you are able to sell them readily, I might have connections here to help out the local shops move guns that don't sell well here.

I do question the statement of selling one almost every week for the past 3 years equates to 26. Elementary as you think my math is, that should roughly equate to 156. I'm not calling BS on you until you can clarify your statement, if you wish.

Even though you appear to be condescending to others as well as me here on this thread, I'd like to keep this on the level. I've asked simple questions that request clarification to further provide experiences with the GAP in other areas of the world that may not be the same as it is here. If not, that's fine by me. There are other threads that have members that don't mind engaging in lively discusssion w/o denegrating each other.

As to ones that may think I'm belittling the GAP or think it's useless, my original post #32 will clarify my thoughts on the cartridge..

[Desertscout1]

No need for the condescending remarks just because others may be jumping your case. I really wanted clarification as to why the assertion of being apparently happy to say 26 GAPs is a solid third place in sales. Yes, I do know the 9 and .40 is counted before the GAP sales. And, I clearly stated that if you are able to sell them readily, I might have connections here to help out the local shops move guns that don't sell well here.
OK, let's assume that you were completely on the level here, which I'm having trouble believing but, whatever. A couple hundred 9mm's, a couple hundred .40's, 26 GAP's. Doesn't that make the GAP 3rd place if there are no other calibers in between? I guess I'm really struggling to see what is hard to understand here.

I do question the statement of selling one almost every week for the past 3 years equates to 26. Elementary as you think my math is, that should roughly equate to 156. I'm not calling BS on you until you can clarify your statement, if you wish.
The reason you question the statement is because I never made it. THIS is the statement I made..."GAP's rarely sit on my shelf for more than a week or so and often not that long." This present tense. I figured it would be obvious to most that the GAP had to work it's way up the ladder like any of the rest of them. I never indicated in any way that I have sold that many over the entire 3 years. Like I said, It was new and there were VERY out ANYWHERE for the first year or so. It's safe to say that majority of these GAP's were sold in the last 1.5 years.

Even though you appear to be condescending to others as well as me here on this thread, I'd like to keep this on the level. I've asked simple questions that request clarification to further provide experiences with the GAP in other areas of the world that may not be the same as it is here. If not, that's fine by me. There are other threads that have members that don't mind engaging in lively discusssion w/o denegrating each other.
I appear condescending because of the difficult time that I am having getting an incredibly simple point across. After a while, I just get frustrated.[/QUOTE]

[Desertscout1]

Officers Match, you are, of course, correct.

socrates, here's a pic of a G39 that we did for a guy in AZ. Since we did some trigger work on it, we took it out and test fired it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Desertscout1/Boa%20G39/IMG_39tgtfrt.jpg

[Shane Tuttle]

OK, here's the numbers. I have sold 524 Glocks in the last 3 years. I didn't count the .40's and 9mm's but they VASTLY exceed everything else. However, the GAP is safely in 3rd.
The following numbers are just Glocks...
10mm - 13
.45 ACP - 7
.45 GAP - 26
.357 SIG - 11

This is your direct quote (duh). I took it as these have been your sales for the past 3 years in that that was the time you started to sell GAPs. This is where I was first questioning where you were coming from. I didn't know most of your sales were in the last 1.5 years on the GAP.

My guess was that even though it doesn't stay in inventory for more than a week, doesn't mean you've had a steady flow of availability every week either. However, I wanted you to stake that claim before I put words in your mouth...

The reason you question the statement is because I never made it. THIS is the statement I made..."GAP's rarely sit on my shelf for more than a week or so and often not that long."

...as I did here. My apologies for doing so. I miscontstued what you posted and am guilty as charged.

I appear condescending because of the difficult time that I am having getting an incredibly simple point across. After a while, I just get frustrated.

Understood. I don't have the computer best computer skills and rely heavily in my line of work to read nonverbal communication. That's why I'd rather dissect, to a fault sometimes, for clarification. Granted, I think if I had the info. on the sales of the last 1.5 yrs, that would have helped. On the other hand, one shouldn't have to explain every detail of how many squares he uses when going to the toilet...

Hope no offense taken. And your clarification is appreciated...

[Desertscout1]

No sir, no offense taken at all. Sometimes I get so aggravated with some of the dummies that post on these boards that I forget that there are rational, intelligent questions as well. My apologies to you also.

[Desertscout1]

I didn't know most of your sales were in the last 1.5 years on the GAP.

I just went back and counted. I was right but not by much. It looks like I've sold 14 out of the 26 GAP's since 1 July of '06.

[JohnKSa]

26 out of 524 is pretty piss poor for such a star caliber!!! I bet the reason you have sold that many is your local cops carry gap! I bet you bad mouth the ACP and make them feel bad if they want one and push the crap out of the GAP.How about a little more objectivity and a lot less emotion, it's not like we're discussing religion or politics. ;)

[Desertscout1]

Here's another G37 that we just finished for a guy in Michigan...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Desertscout1/Stippling/IMG_randomBoa.jpg

[Chui]

Interesting caliber. Too costly at the moment due to lack of interest. I've not shot it yet, though there is one for rent.

As for recoil there are at least two factors: mass* velocity (momentum) and energy [0.5*mass*(velocity squared)]. The pressure rise rate is often neglected and is part of the culprit with the .40 S&W when compared to the .45 ACP. Burn rates are crucial in automobile combustion chambers as well as in pistols.

If I have less case capacity and same bullet mass and velocity guess what? I HAVE to have a faster burning powder. If the "average pressure levels" are the same then I MUST have higher peak pressure rise rates and therefore will be perceived as "peakier" in recoil impulse.

What's this to do with the .45 GAP vs. .45 ACP debate? I dunno. I've not shot a GAP yet.

I'm not interested due to availability and cost, though I do like the concept. For me, .45 ACP is sent thru 1911s so grip size, recoil impulse or any other perceived advantages of GAP over ACP is not much of an issue. For others, it may be a blessing. The bottom line is shoot the most "powerful" combination that you shoot well [surgically precise (fist-sized groups) at reasonable speed (0.25 splits or less)] at five yards or so.

[Socrates]

Interesting caliber. Too costly at the moment due to lack of interest. I've not shot it yet, though there is one for rent.

As for recoil there are at least two factors: mass* velocity (momentum) and energy [0.5*mass*(velocity squared)]. The pressure rise rate is often neglected and is part of the culprit with the .40 S&W when compared to the .45 ACP. Burn rates are crucial in automobile combustion chambers as well as in pistols.

If I have less case capacity and same bullet mass and velocity guess what? I HAVE to have a faster burning powder. If the "average pressure levels" are the same then I MUST have higher peak pressure rise rates and therefore will be perceived as "peakier" in recoil impulse.

Right idea, wrong information.
Yes, mass has a great affect on recoil. In the cartridges we are discussing here, the bullet mass is the same.

The GAP uses slightly higher pressure and a more efficient ratio, to get the same speed, out of the same powders as the 45ACP, but, with around 25% less powder.
Think the 308 and 30-06. The 308 is just more efficient for the bullets that are most commonly used, using less powder, but getting the same ballistic result. If you've ever reloaded 45 ACP, double charging with something like Bullseye is a real problem, because so little powder is in such a large case.

Recoil is down, because with the GAP, using 25% less powder, with the same size bullet, over comes the very little increase in pressure it uses.

Looking at the 40 S&@, the powder charges are inbetween
the GAP and 45 ACP, but at nearly 60% more pressure, and, with little benefit in bullet speed, at least with the 200 grain bullets I've been using as a standard.

So, for the velocities the 45 ACP works at, the GAP is a more efficient length, using much less powder, but, getting the same ballistics. The 45 ACP really should be loaded to
45 Detonics levels, 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps, or 230's at 1100 fps, which it does easily, with about 25-30k pressures. That seems to be the level at which the 45 ACP is most efficient.

Another plus for the GAP is with the small powder charges used, you get much more even powder burning, and less velocity variation, resulting in better accuracy.

By the way, there is NO rational reason for the 40 to be preceived as being a high recoiling cartridge. Physics doesn't lie. The powder charge is less then the 45 ACP, and, the increase in pressure doesn't justify the recoil everyone thinks the 40 has.

I think the reason it gets that rep is cheap powders, and maximum profit for the ammo companies.

As a general rule, the big 3 buy bulk left over powders from other applications, and use them in handguns. They aren't commercial powders, and, they are often high recoil, low velocity powders. I can't help but think the 40 suffers from that, since ballistically, and reloading table wise, there is NO reason for it to be a recoil monster, except for it being put into 9mm guns, when it should probably be in guns with slide weight similar to the 45's.

DesertScout: NICE WORK. Have to apply for a CCW here. In my town, the police have their own 'approved' CCW list, and, I've heard it's DA only, and somehow, the new guys have managed to make a Glock a DA only gun.:roll::rolleyes:

Seems my 360PD works, but not my 1911. Also, if carrying legally, I have a bit more room to carry, and don't have to worry about the expert, prying eyes of the police.

By the way, as for the 40 recoiling so much, I can only go back to some wonderful ammo
Remmington put out, about 25 years ago. It was 44 special, and, it came with a 250 grain lead bullet.
The case was filled with a very slow burning, high recoiling powder. The flash was huge, giant recoil, and the bullets moved so slowly you could easily see them. Accuracy was horrible, not being able to put 5 shots on a FBI target, at 7 yards. The final straw was at these meager velocities, I figure about 550 fps, it leaded my barrel, in only 20 rounds, and, the garbage cost 22-24 dollars, and that was nearly 30 years ago.
I went home, loaded some 240 grain HP's at about 1000 fps, went back to the range, and, the gun recoiled a LOT less, I put all 5 shots on the nose of the target at 7 yards, with little flash, either.
I've NEVER bought anything from Remmington since.

I use the cheap powder to my advantage in stuff like American Eagle. the 230 grain bulk stuff they sell uses a cheap, high recoil powder. I use this for practice in my 45 Super Kimber, and, it works great, cycling the gun with extra stiff springs, and giving me cheap ammo to practice with. It recoils about the same as the 45 Super I carry in it.

[kgpcr]

14 GAP's in a year and a half is not much of a screamer sales wise!

[Chui]

Right idea, wrong information.

Yes, mass has a great effect on recoil. In the cartridges we are discussing here, the bullet mass is the same.

The GAP uses slightly higher pressure and a more efficient ratio, to get the same speed, out of the same powders as the .45 ACP, but, with around 25% less powder.

Think the .308 and .30-06. The .308 is just more efficient for the bullets that are most commonly used, using less powder, but getting the same ballistic result. If you've ever reloaded .45 ACP, double charging with something like Bullseye is a real problem, because so little powder is in such a large case.

Recoil is down, because with the GAP, using 25% less powder, with the same size bullet, overcomes the very little increase in pressure it uses.

Looking at the 40 S&W, the powder charges are inbetween the GAP and .45 ACP, but at nearly 60% more pressure, and, with little benefit in bullet speed, at least with the 200 grain bullets I've been using as a standard.

So, for the velocities the .45 ACP works at, the GAP is a more efficient length, using much less powder, but, getting the same ballistics. The .45 ACP really should be loaded to .45 Detonics levels, 200 grain bullet at 1,200 fps, or 230's at 1,100 fps, which it does easily, with about 25-30k pressures. That seems to be the level at which the .45 ACP is most efficient.

Another plus for the GAP is with the small powder charges used, you get much more even powder burning, and less velocity variation, resulting in better accuracy.

It's nice to see others who delve deeply into this. I'm not familiar with the details of the cartridge. Thanks for the information; it's greatly appreciated.

By the way, there is NO rational reason for the .40 S&W to be preceived as being a high recoiling cartridge. Physics doesn't lie. The powder charge is less then the .45 ACP, and, the increase in pressure doesn't justify the recoil everyone thinks the .40 S&W has.

I think the reason it gets that rep is cheap powders, and maximum profit for the ammo companies.

As a general rule, the big 3 buy bulk left over powders from other applications and use them in handguns. They aren't commercial powders, and, they are often high recoil, low velocity powders.

I can't help but think the .40 S&W suffers from that, since ballistically, and reloading table wise, there is NO reason for it to be a recoil monster, except for it being put into 9mm guns, when it should probably be in guns with slide weight similar to the 45's.

I use the cheap powder to my advantage in stuff like American Eagle. The 230 grain bulk stuff they sell uses a cheap, high recoil powder. I use this for practice in my .45 Super Kimber, and, it works great, cycling the gun with extra stiff springs, and giving me cheap ammo to practice with. It recoils about the same as the .45 Super I carry in it.

I'm not sure if it's inexpensive, readily available powders or just poorly engineered/selected powders. I do know that the RATE of pressure increase is much higher in the .40 S&W cartridges compared to all but... that g*ddamned American Eagle crap. :barf::D

It's also nice to hear someone else who has experienced this, too. That is probably just as you described -- INEXPENSIVE (read: surplus of powder for something else) powder. For the record, Bruce Gray (Grayguns, Sig Sauer) has stated that he has loaded .40 S&W without the nasty snap in recoil for various competition that still meet Major. My response is that they ALL should be loaded that way...

I sense that there IS more recoil in .45 than .40 S&W, but it's the pressure TRACES (or the FFT of same) where one can determine the differences between the two because everyone (or nearly so) will describe the recoil characteristics as "snappy" compared to the "push" associated with the .45 ACP. The .45 ACP is more pleasant so I shoot it better and therefore prefer it for self-defense.

Again, wonderful confirming reply, sir.

[Bullet94]

kgpcr

GAP the new 41AE. An answer to a question nobody asked.


What are the chances of a .25GAP ?? now that is one that the market is screaming for. almost the same as the .45GAP


Only Gastons ego would think he could one up JMB!!


I think the GAP is dying a slow death. Around here they cant give them away. the only thing keeping it alive at all is some Depts got them for almost free from Glock. With out that they would be done already!


For 95% of us they serve no purpose that is not already filled nicely. Maybe the 5% will keep it alive who knows? i just think its a dead horse.


3rd best selling caliber?? I woudl call bull**** on that one. maybe one gun shop where the cops use them but not nationaly!


26 out of 524 is pretty piss poor for such a star caliber!!! I bet the reason you have sold that many is your local cops carry gap! I bet you bad mouth the ACP and make them feel bad if they want one and push the crap out of the GAP.


14 GAP's in a year and a half is not much of a screamer sales wise!


I seem to get the impression you don’t like the 45 GAP. Maybe you should read this -

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661542

[JohnKSa]

By the way, there is NO rational reason for the 40 to be preceived as being a high recoiling cartridge. Physics doesn't lie. The powder charge is less then the 45 ACP, and, the increase in pressure doesn't justify the recoil everyone thinks the 40 has.Recoil velocity is directly related to the ejecta momentum and inversely proportional to the weight of the firearm. It is NOT a function of pressure.

Ejecta is everything that comes out the muzzle (powder gases and bullet) and momentum is proportional to the mass velocity product of a moving object--the ejecta in this case.

The ejecta momentum of the .40 is very similar to that of the .45 but the .40 is typically shot out of smaller, lighter firearms. That means that the recoil velocity of a typical .40 pistol is higher than the recoil velocity of a typical .45 pistol and that translates to more felt recoil in the general case.

Your theory about cheap powders may be accurate, but it's not required to explain this situation--it's pretty straightforward physics.

[Socrates]

Ahhh, no. Recoil is caused first by combustion, creating gases, which creates pressure, which determines how quickly the two things accelerate away from each other. One of the often overlooked factors in recoil is powder burning speed, and Chui was absolutely right in bringing it up.

In short barreled guns, you need a quick burning powder to quickly get the light bullet up to speed, prior to exiting the barrel. With a slow burning powder, you get the same effect I found with Remingtons garbage powder, very slow bullet speed, since the powder doesn't have time to completely burn, and develop adequate pressure.

So, with a slow burning powder, the controlled explosion occurs over a longer period of time, resulting in more of a push, rather then a crack. A fast burning powder results in everything happening at once which accelerates the items away from each other with a more severe spike.

I had a friend/mentor who's job was to rate detonation cord burning rates for Lockheed, doing this with the world's fastest camera. The cord would burn in the 50k-150k feet per second rate, but, it was still considered a burn, not an explosion.

Now in such small cartridges burn rate may not play a major role, but, it does determine the speed the recoil occurs at, while the ft-lbs of recoil can be the same.

Where this really comes into play is when you start building cartridges that function over 40k in pressure, with heavier bullets. The 454 Casull has correctly earned the reputation for being one of the worst recoiling cartridges of all. Why? If functions at such high pressure that it creates both a ton of recoil, combined with that recoil occuring suddenly. In this case created by using a relatively slow burning powder, and a heavy bullet. The bullet holds the pressure in place, then, when it reaches it's 50-60k levels, the gun and bullet accelerate very suddenly, in different directions.

I get the same effect with high pressure 375 H&H ammo, vs. a 450 or 500 Nitro Express. The MUCH bigger NE cartridges have much more room, and, the pressure with the slower burning powder occurs slower in generation, with the result it's more a shove then snap. The 375 H&H, even though it uses much lighter bullets, is snappier, because unlike the original 40k specs, we try and wring everything we can out of it now, and load it to very high pressures, my 300 grain softpoint Weatherby ammo in particular.

I think the real answer to the 40's recoil problems is it's just shoved into guns designed for the much lighter bulleted 9mm, with stiffer springs, and, slide weight is not increased to compensate for a cartridge that is much closer in size to the 45ACP then the 9mm.

The 45 GAP is really what the 40 should be, in that the 45 GAP is a way more efficient cartridge then the 45ACP, at reaching the levels we usually use for 45ACP. 45 Detonics, and 450SMC are really more the level the 45 ACP case size justifies. You can load Speer 260 grain HPS to 1000 fps out of the 450SMC, and, that reaches Lee Jurras' Holy Grail for heavy bullets, in a normal auto.

I also think the timing isn't changed on the 40 S&@ retooled 9mm guns. They probably figure since the guns designed for about 35K, and, the 40 is too, they don't need to change much, but, the gas volume in the 40 is near double the 9mm. Result is the guns maybe opening too soon, while pressure is still too high, resulting in a high velocity slide, accelerated by way more pressure, and, for a longer period. If the gun opens early, the force that is sending the slide back could not only be just as high, or higher, but, it could also occur for twice as long, since the gases created by the 40 are considerably larger in volume then the 9mm. So, you have a slide accelerated back not only with equal force, but with double the duration, due to the higher volume of gas.

This really reminds me of S*@ everytime they come up with a new magnum, and, the inevitable top strap and forcing cone cutting that occurs, due to the greater gas speed, and volume.

[JohnKSa]

Recoil is caused by conservation of momentum. Pressure enters into it only as the mechanism that causes the motion but is not a factor in the calculation of recoil velocity.

What I posted was correct and can be verified in any physics text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentumthe controlled explosion occurs over a longer period of timeYou're talking about a difference that is less than two hundred millionths of a second. Maybe changing the duration of an event by 200 millionths of a second changes something from a push to a crack if you have a high-speed camera, but for a mere mortal there is no practical difference.

[Socrates]

Your opinion. Feel free to contact Gary Reeder, and ask him why he's convinced his wild cat, necking the 500 S&@ down to .452" is an excellent cartridge that easily matches the 454 in bullet performance, but without the recoil.

Mr. Reeder also observes in his blog that the recoil from the 454 is considerably different from similar calibers.

I realize these aren't the rounds at discussion here, so, I will point out once again that I agree that probably the most important things in recoil perception with the 40 is putting a near 45 ACP size cartridge, in guns designed for 9mm, with, nothing other then a spring change, no change in mass, read a heavier slide. That coupled with cheap ammo, and getting what you pay for, powder wise, end up with a cartridge that is preceived as heavier in recoil. Doubling the pressure will also affect recoil, or at least my observation is it does.

If you load 9mm ammo to 12k pressure, like starting 45ACP loads, you have NO recoil...

Likewise, a 450 N2 with 500 grain bullet at 2150, using max 25k pressure, is a easy gun to shoot, compared to a 458 Lott, loaded with the same bullet to 2200 fps, at 50K.

John, I'm really curious if you currently reload, and, if so, how much you change your ammuntion pressure, and, if you can notice the difference, going from slow burning powders to fast ones, and, from the low end of the reloading tables to the high end.

My experience has been with both rifles and pistols is you reach a sweet spot, or point of diminishing returns, where the recoil seems to increase geometrically, while the increase in velocity increases arithmetically.

[gvf]

WARNING: Some here suffer from dangerous disease: (this was linked by another poster but should be posted in neon):


"
According to *Butch's* dictionary.....

GAPophobia:
An innate fear of the use by anyone of the .45 GAP cartridge in preference to the .45 ACP cartridge.

GAPophobes always seem to want to argue about how there is no purpose for the .45 GAP cartridge, no reason for it to exist. No amount of bandwidth wastage on the subject is too much!

They completely and callously disregard the fact that some people don't have hands that are big enough to handle a G21 well, but really like the Glock for it's many virtues, and want the historical power of the .45 ACP cartridge. They also don't seem to care that those of us who can be relatively comfortable with a G21 sized grip may simply *prefer* the smaller grip frame.

Even though it's been proven many times that the .45 GAP round is very much equal to the standard .45 ACP round (and very often is even a touch more powerful), GAPophobes will often repeat the inaccurate ramblings of those who think it could not be, and/or refuse to be honest about it.....but facts are facts.

Often GAPophobes cannot understand that a lot of folks feel the standard .45 ACP and .45 GAP cartridges are powerful enough, they just don't feel a need to have a .45+P or .45 Super, or compare the GAP to them. The .45 GAP, like the .45 ACP, is plenty mean enough!


It appears that GAPophobes are for some reason afraid that if the .45 GAP becomes popular, or in any way 'mainstream', they will somehow loose the ability to use or get their regular .45 ACP ammo or guns made for the round. This is obviously nonsense. Did the unstoppable .45 Colt go away when the .45 S&W (Schofield) appeared? Or when the .45 ACP appeared?

A note to GAPophobes: Can't we all just get along? We don't need to argue every time we desire to talk about the .45 GAP round. A lot of us like ALL .45's! I even like the .455 Webley round!


Galeophobia or Gatophobia- Fear of cats.
Gallophobia or Galiophobia- Fear France or French culture. (Francophobia)
Gamophobia- Fear of marriage.
GAPophobia- Fear of the .45 GAP cartridge.
Geliophobia- Fear of laughter.
Geniophobia- Fear of chins.
Genophobia- Fear of sex.
Genuphobia- Fear of knees.
Gephyrophobia or Gephydrophobia or Gephysrophobia- Fear of crossing bridges.
Germanophobia- Fear of Germany or German culture.
Gerascophobia- Fear of growing old.
Gerontophobia- Fear of old people or of growing old.
Geumaphobia or Geumophobia- Fear of taste.
Glossophobia- Fear of speaking in public or of trying to speak.
Gnosiophobia- Fear of knowledge.
Graphophobia- Fear of writing or handwriting.
Gymnophobia- Fear of nudity.
Gynephobia or Gynophobia- Fear of women."



Or as someone far wiser than me put it:

"...so, tinfoil hat wearers need not freak about black helicopters being dispatched."

[JohnKSa]

Your opinion.No. The calculation of recoil velocity based on momentum has been accepted science for a few centuries now.John, I'm really curious if you currently reload, and, if so, how much you change your ammuntion pressure, and, if you can notice the difference, going from slow burning powders to fast ones, and, from the low end of the reloading tables to the high end.Comparing WITHIN a given caliber, pressure will, of course, tend to affect the velocity of the bullet which is the bulk of the ejecta. Therefore if you compare WITHIN a caliber, increasing pressure tends to increase momentum and therefore recoil velocity.

That does not even begin to work comparing BETWEEN calibers.Likewise, a 450 N2 with 500 grain bullet at 2150, using max 25k pressure, is a easy gun to shoot, compared to a 458 Lott, loaded with the same bullet to 2200 fps, at 50K.If the two guns are similar in weight then the recoil velocity from loads with similar weight bullet and muzzle velocity will be similar. Again, this is established science.

However, when you compare rifle cartridges there's also the issue that the powder charge can differ significantly. Powder is part of the ejecta and the powder gases exit at a much higher velocity than the bullet. If there is a large difference in the powder charge when comparing two rifle rounds that can make a significant difference in recoil. As an example, in the case you mention there would be about a 2% difference in recoil if you don't take powder charge into account. If one assumes the Lott uses 20 grains more powder (I don't have loading data for the two cartridges), the difference in recoil jumps to 12%.

There may be other differences that make one rifle feel like it recoils more than another. Stock design, for example, has a significant effect on FELT recoil, but that's another story.

My point is that in these situations we must FIRST look to established science to explain what we observe. ONLY when that fails to explain the phenomenon do we start looking elsewhere. Otherwise things become hopelessly muddled with opinion and science taking equal value--or sometimes opinion winning over science. There's already plenty of that in the firearms world, we certainly don't need more of it.

[gvf]

The calculation of recoil velocity based on momentum has been accepted science for a few centuries now.


Interesting discussions. This thread is getting better the longer it goes on.

BUT: what if anything explains recoil "perception". I had 0 experience, or close to, with handguns until 9 mos ago when I got ccw and began shooting. I bought a .357 Python, my 1st gun, because of unbelievable price ($439) before I actually had the permit, or rather I put it on layaway. I was convinced with no experience, being 60 yrs old with small, thin hands, I would have to use .38s in it. The first time I shot I tried .357 with fear and trembling. AND: nothing. No problem. Easy.

I also have .45 Gap in Glock 37. Again, fine gun that makes recoil easier but still: others have shot both guns, far younger and with more experience, and they often have a "wow! too much for me!" reaction afterwards. And I am bewildered because recoil seems so easy. A family member also commented when he gave me his .44 magnum to shoot. Said most don't hit the target the first time because the recoil causes severe flinching. I shot a nice line close to center and he noticed I didn't move a muscle from any recoil-flinch. From my end, I noticed it but it felt like it was a secondary, background experience, I didn't pay much attention to it as I was concentrating on the sight picture. I wasn't really aware of much recoil.
So, what explains that? Can't be experience with none under my belt - and I know others who have similar atypical reactions to recoil, some like me, others the reverse: .38s seem like thunderbolts to them. Any explanations? Or just psychological conditioning? I'm thankful I have a good reaction to recoil, but it seems a bit odd what it's due to....

The only explanation I have come up with is my profession: Theater, where one must exclude all distraction (the audience) and hone in with great concentration on other things close at hand. Perhaps that has something too do with it. Who knows.......but the science of recoil and its perception do seem like they don't always go together.

[Socrates]

My experience has been with both rifles and pistols is you reach a sweet spot, or point of diminishing returns, where the recoil seems to increase geometrically, while the increase in velocity increases arithmetically.

John: Please explain the above observations using the physics you quote above? Why at a certain point with powders does recoil increase big time, with a very small percentage increase in velocity?

Actually, I'll ask my gunsmith, since he's got a degree in the subject.

Forums are funny. My observations are pretty much boilerplate reloading 101 observations. Wonder why that isn't the case here?

[JohnKSa]

Please explain the above observations using the physics you quote above?1. Clearly the person didn't measure the recoil velocity but is instead stating their opinion based on felt recoil. A strong hint that this is the case is the word "seems" in the quote. Another strong hint is that NO one measures recoil velocity because it is so easy to calculate based on Newton's laws and no one has challenged the concept of conservation of momentum in centuries.

2. Felt recoil is very subjective. An example of this subjectivity is provided in the post immediately preceding your last post. For most people the sensations of blast and felt recoil are combined/mixed to some extent. Increasing pressure definitely increases blast, particularly in shorter barrels.

3. Increasing the powder charge DOES increase recoil, but certainly not geometrically.Forums are funny.Opinions and subjective evaluations are funny. That's why they use science and not opinions to construct space shuttles. ;)

[Perldog007]

I have to go along with the felt recoil being subjective. I never could hit very well with heavy revolvers until I wore plugs under my ear muffs. Reducing the noise made the recoil seem much lighter.

[kgpcr]

Hello my name is Kevin and i am a Gapaphobe! I trust in the .45 ACP that has been around 100yrs. I see no reason to change to the GAP it has nothing for me that i dont already have. i also dont like to look for and pay more for my ammo. I also like to get more reloads out of my brass. I also like the fact it will be here 10 yrs from now.

[gvf]

Hello my name is Kevin and i am a Gapaphobe! I trust in the .45 ACP that has been around 100yrs. I see no reason to change to the GAP it has nothing for me that i dont already have. i also dont like to look for and pay more for my ammo. I also like to get more reloads out of my brass. I also like the fact it will be here 10 yrs from now.

Then don't shoot it.

[Bullet94]

Hello my name is Kevin and i am a Gapaphobe!

NO KIDDING! :barf:

I trust in the .45 ACP that has been around 100yrs.

Good for you. To bad this thread isn’t about the 45 ACP.

I see no reason to change to the GAP it has nothing for me that i dont already have.

Nobody wants you to change.

i also dont like to look for and pay more for my ammo. I also like to get more reloads out of my brass. I also like the fact it will be here 10 yrs from now.

Good for you. To bad this thread isn’t about the 45 ACP.

[Niantician]

My opinion would be that if you are too small to properly grip a 45acp handgun, you're most likely too small to handle any 45cal recoil, at least in a combat situation. I'm 5'7" 170lbs, and I carry a double stack 45acp very well. If you're smaller than me, and can't grip a 45acp, maybe you should stop kidding yourself and buy a 9mm. Oh and "too bad this thread isn't about the 45acp"?? That's funny, I thought the 45gap used a 45acp bullet.

[Officer's Match]

I'd say technique/skill has a little more to do with it than physical size.

[Niantician]

I don't think you can have any technique/skill if you can't properly grip your firearm. Or handle it's recoil.

[Officer's Match]

I don't think you can have any technique/skill if you can't properly grip your firearm

Precisely the point of the GAP.

Or handle it's recoil.

I'd say technique/skill has a little more to do with it than physical size.

[Bullet94]

I thought the 45gap used a 45acp bullet.

The 45 GAP cartridge uses a 45 caliber bullet. The 45 ACP cartridge uses a 45 caliber bullet. They both use 45 caliber bullets. There’s no such thing as a 45 ACP bullet.

[Niantician]

There's no such thing as a 45acp bullet? Ask 100 gun owners where a 230gr jhp came out of, and 98 would say a 45acp. One would say a 45autorim, and one would say 45gap.

[Bullet94]

I’m done posting in this thread. If you don’t see a value with 45 GAP don’t buy one. If you do want a 45 caliber in a 9mm size Glock buy it, you’ll like it.

[gvf]

I’m done posting in this thread. If you don’t see a value with 45 GAP don’t buy one. If you do want a 45 caliber in a 9mm size Glock buy it, you’ll like it.

Exactly. I like black cars. Why is it necessary for you to tell me you think red cars are better? Can't JohnSka, Socrates, Bullet94 and others have a decent discussion without all the "noise"?

This stuff kills intelligent discussions or OPs who really want a question answered.

People can go have fun with their big "things", in whatever category, have a ball, but they shouldn't feel the need to share it all with everybody. We don't care.

[Socrates]

OK
Haven't used the chronograph, to develop loads, only to test afterwards, and, with my guns, I'm not intrested in what the maximum limit a 525 grain bullet with 40 grains of 4227 is going to do. I'm working more on the low end of any reloading tables I can find, except with service calibers.

That said, here is what happens when working up with a chronograph. With a little increase in powder, you get a pretty consistent increase in velocity. When the velocity starts diminishing, with the same increase in powder, this is generally when your accuracy starts going down, as well. You will hit a point where you are increasing powder, but, the bullet is not going any faster. You are generating more recoil, however, since the explosion, or burn is larger, at higher pressure, and creates more gas. To quantify this, physics wise, the increase in pressure, results in more gas, and, since it can only exit in one direction, it DOES result in more recoil, with the bullet going the same speed.

I suspect a quick and dirty way to design a commercial load would be to use a pressure barrel, take a cheap powder. Pour powder in till target pressure is achieved, somewhere close to the top end for pressure for the caliber, to insure that autos cycle. Measure velocity, sell ammo.

[JohnKSa]

To quantify this, physics wise, the increase in pressure, results in more gas, and, since it can only exit in one direction, it DOES result in more recoil, with the bullet going the same speed.The powder produces the gases, that is why the powder charge weight is part of the recoil velocity calculation. So it's actually the powder increase that produced increased recoil, not the increased pressure. The increased pressure is another byproduct of increasing the powder charge just as the increased recoil is.

So within a given caliber, and sticking with the same kind of powder, increasing the powder charge increases both recoil and pressure.

There's still the problem of comparing across calibers due to differences in case capacity and the types of powder used. That's where it becomes apparent that pressure, in and of itself doesn't increase recoil. The GAP is one example. In spite of the fact that it uses the same bullet at the same velocity and HIGHER pressure, it actually recoils slightly less than the ACP because it uses a lighter powder charge.

[Socrates]

The powder produces the gases, that is why the powder charge weight is part of the recoil velocity calculation. So it's actually the powder increase that produced increased recoil, not the increased pressure. The increased pressure is another byproduct of increasing the powder charge just as the increased recoil is.

So within a given caliber, and sticking with the same kind of powder, increasing the powder charge increases both recoil and pressure.

There's still the problem of comparing across calibers due to differences in case capacity and the types of powder used. That's where it becomes apparent that pressure, in and of itself doesn't increase recoil. The GAP is one example. In spite of the fact that it uses the same bullet at the same velocity and HIGHER pressure, it actually recoils slightly less than the ACP because it uses a lighter powder charge.

Excellent. Part of my point as well. that's why I don't get the 40.

Remember that how fast the burn occurs is also part of the recoil picture. The amount of time it takes for the powder to burn, given equal amounts of powder, also determines the force of the recoil. YOu have to step a bit into the real world to see how that happens. As pressure builds, the bullet may start moving, allowing the pressure to be reduced. If the bullet doesn't start moving, maximum pressure is achieved, and, as the bullet starts to move, it is released in the direction oppositte the bullet, hence recoil being sudden.
The question becomes are you using the barrel as part of the combustion chamber? In other words, if the bullet starts moving, before all the powder is burned, then the recoil is reduced, because the gas pressure is not as high as it would have been if the bullet had not started to move.

An example of this is testing the 297 loads from Buffalobore for the 430 grain .500JRH, out of three different guns.

First we used this one:
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/JACKS%20AND%20EDS%20GUNS/BRFCustomvs.jpg

Custom BFR in .500JRH. Velocity is advertized as 1350 fps, and that's exactly what we got.

Next was this gun:

http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/seville%207%202006/500lever.jpg

Custom David Clay with IIRC, a 18" barrel. Chrono result:
1350 fps. Combustion is happening completely in a 4" barrel, and, adding barrel length does not benefit velocity.

Next gun, the original Ruger Alaskan, a RugerSRH Jack converted to .500JRH before Ruger even dreamed of the Alaskan:
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/seville%207%202006/SRH500cylinder.jpg
Velocity about 1250 fps, IIRC.
Conclusion: The bullet does move before peak combustion is achieved. Peak velocity happens between 3-4" barrel length, with the bullet moving already. Because the bullet leaves the 2" barrel prior to complete combustion, the pressure required to move the bullet at 1350 fps is not achieved.

Because the powder fails to combust in the gun, a good deal of powder is outside the barrel, thrown forward, and combusts in a fireball in front of the barrel. This powder cannot be part of felt recoil, since it as a sphere combustion as it burns, with no restriction.

So, in the real world, barrel length, bullet weight, gun design, all add to the complexity of a simple recoil calculation.

For example, with my 360PD, and light bullets, like Corbon 125's(rated at 1450fps), we get one heck of a flame ball, and the bullets going 1204 fps. The recoil calculation, if you just use standard calculations, is inaccurate, because a considerable amount of powder does not burn in the chamber or barrel.

If that same case was loaded with Bullseye, chances are better that the combustion would be complete, and recoil would be higher, given similar pressure, and powder volume.

I believe the bullet moving is also part of the felt recoil equation, though I can't say how much, and if it affects service caliber guns.

If the bullet moves, and is down the barrel as peak pressure is achieved, I think this lessens the feeling of recoil, since the acceleration occurs over a longer period of time, and, you can feel the difference in powders, even with the same velocity results.

As for comparing the GAP, 40, and 45 ACP: I think you are right, that it's hard. First off we have hints: Look at the brassfetcher.com tests of the 45 ACP rounds, and you have a really hardtime thinking the ammomakers care about what powders they use. The velocity loss as you go to short
barrels is REALLY scary in these rounds.

May have to look at the 40 tests, and see if velocity loss in shorter barreled guns is as severe as the 45ACP stuff tested.

[JohnKSa]

The recoil calculation, if you just use standard calculations, is inaccurate, because a considerable amount of powder does not burn in the chamber or barrel.I don't understand why you think Newton's laws are inadequate to describe recoil velocity.

Recoil velocity is proportional to ejecta mass times ejecta velocity. If the powder burns outside the barrel then the largest part of the ejecta (the bullet) will have a lower velocity and therefore the recoil velocity in the STANDARD calculation will be reduced as well. Because the bullet leaves the 2" barrel prior to complete combustion, the pressure required to move the bullet at 1350 fps is not achieved.That is incorrect.

The peak chamber pressure is achieved just as the bullet starts moving. A little research should satisfy you that this is the case. However the fact that the pressure drops once the bullet gets underway doesn't mean that there's not enough to keep accelerating the bullet. Unless the volume of the bore is large in relation to the gas volume created by the combustion, it will generally keep accelerating the bullet for many inches of barrel although there is a point of diminishing returns when bullet/bore friction becomes greater than the force of the expanding gases. In .22LR guns, for example, the gas volume is insufficient to accelerate the bullet past 16 to 18 inches and the friction between the bore and bullet dominates past that point resulting in reduced muzzle velocity past that point as barrel length increases. This sort of effect is also seen in very large bore calibers with medium to low power since there is a lot of bore volume to fill with not much gas.

What's very likely happening in your rifle is that the bullet is accelerating past 1350 and then slowing back down when it hits the point of diminishing returns at which point the force due to the expanding gases is less than the bore/bullet friction force.

HOWEVER, in all cases (barring minor differences due to chamber differences in the guns) the peak pressures will all be virtually identical and will occur just as the bullet starts to move.

[Socrates]

Possible you are right.

So you're saying the bullet needs a certain length of barrel for the gas to act on it, accelerating it to peak velocity?
In otherwords, the peak pressure occurs in the 2 inch, but, the powder charge needs a total barrel length of 3-4 inches to accelerate the bullet to maximum velocity?

If this is the case, why do you have giant fireballs, and terrible ballistics ala 44 special Remington ammo and a 3" barrel, or 125 grain bullets in 2" 357's?

[JohnKSa]

If you fire the same load in several guns, the peak pressures will be more or less the same in all of them. Any differences would be due to temperature differences or differences in the chamber and leade. For example a tighter chamber or higher temperature means slightly higher pressures and if the bullet is touching the rifling it will be harder to start and will therefore result in higher chamber pressure.

The peak pressure happens just as the bullet starts moving--say within the first inch or so of travel. The combustion has to get the bullet moving, break the crimp and swage the bullet into the rifling. Once you overcome those issues, it takes much less force to keep the bullet accelerating. Even though the pressure begins to drop significantly almost as soon as the bullet moves, there's still enough to keep the acceleration up until the dynamic friction of the bullet moving down the bore exceeds the force from the pressure. That happens sooner if the bore volume is very large or if the powder volume is very small or due to a combination of the two. It could also happen if the bore friction was very high, but that's getting into pathological cases...

The reason that you get fireballs from short barrels is that the pressure continues to drop until the bullet exits the bore. The shorter the barrel, the more pressure is vented to the atmosphere when the bullet exits. In addition the bullet moving down the barrel increases the volume of the gases which physics tells us causes a cooling effect and furthermore, some of the powder may still be burning in the barrel. The shorter the barrel, the more pressure is vented, the hotter the vented gases are and the more likely you are to have still-burning powder in the ejecta.

Here are some examples of graphs showing pressure & bullet travel together. These are for rifle cartridges but the principles are the same.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_accuracy_loads.htm

[Socrates]

Thanks, but that link is for Sabots, a different kettle of fish.
Helped test shoot the BRI sabots in the early 80's, and, my friend knew a few things about em, since he took pictures of with the worlds fastest camera of armour being breached by sabots.

That said, it's not a perfect world. I've had a few 'conversations' with Lee Jurras, the original designer/proponent of light, heavy jacketed HP's, at high velocity. His favorites are 180 grain, heavy jacketed soft point and HP's, at 1900 fps, out of a model 29. Lee used
unusual means to keep the bullets in place long enough
to get the pressure up to get that velocity out of a handgun. Suffice to say that the bullets would start to move, if the crimp wasn't perfect, and, coupled with essentially using tar paper to glue the bullet in place.

In 45/454, we use bullet weights over 260 grains to insure proper combustion of powder, prior to the bullet moving, with heavy loads. If you want a case of the bullet moving too soon, load a hard cast 230 grain bullet over a case of H110, out of a revolver.

That said, this thread has sent me looking around for ballistic tests on the calibers, and here is what I've found in commercial ammunition:

The 45 ACP does need barrel length, and, the commercial loaders are using powders slow enough to require a longer barrel for peak velocity. Why the rounds fall off so quickly when the barrels are shortened can possibly be explained by the low pressure of the cartridge, but, it's more likely the powders being used are slow enough so they need the extra barrel length to accelerate the bullets to the quoted specs.

45 GAP I have to check into more, but, it seems it's loaded for short barrels, and, since the G39 is the barrel standard, it seems to work at near the right velocities.

40 S&@ seems to suffer VERY little velocity loss, when shot out of a Glock 27. Hornady states 950 fps, advertized, and, out of the 27, with a 3.48" barrel, chronographed results are around 930 fps. Since the 40 powder capacity is just a bit less then the 45ACP, and powder charges are pretty close, I would conclude that the 40 recoils for the following reasons:
Putting a near 45 ACP size charge of powder in a 9mm sized gun
Using fast burning powders, designed for short barrels, to keep velocity up
Using heavier bullets then 9mm.

Overall, I was VERY impressed with the LACK of velocity lost going with the Glock 27, and it's test results.

Finally, I'm convinced that the lighter bullets seem to be the way to go in all calibers, save the 450SMC or Detonics or Rowland. Getting 1350 fps in velocity seems to be the key...

[JohnKSa]

Thanks, but that link is for Sabots, a different kettle of fish.I think you will find that it doesn't make any significant difference. I just picked that page because it had the proper style of graphs on it.

Here are a couple that don't involve saboted projectiles.

http://www.realguns.com/images/444chrtcomp.jpg

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/223plot.gif

[Socrates]

VERY COOL. Does Quickloader factor in powder charge, powder speed, barrel length, etc.?

If so, it would be a lot of fun to punch in the numbers, and powder charges for the GAP, 45 ACP, and 40 to compare
how quickly the bullets get up to speed...Check that.
I remember this program. It's on Mr. Huntington's laptop, and, requires using an external chrono sensor, IIRC.

More on this in a couple days...

[rdenisj]

From Niantician:
My opinion would be that if you are too small to properly grip a 45acp handgun, you're most likely too small to handle any 45cal recoil, at least in a combat situation. I'm 5'7" 170lbs, and I carry a double stack 45acp very well. If you're smaller than me, and can't grip a 45acp, maybe you should stop kidding yourself and buy a 9mm.

Excuse me? I am 5'7" 230+lbs and I can't properly grip a double stack 45acp. Guess what, I can handle the recoil from a single stack 45, which I have owned, as well as my Taurus 415 in 41 mag with a 2.5 in barrel which I frequently carry, and can handle in a "combat situation". It would be in bad form to compare the size of one's hands to how much recoil one can handle.

[rgillis]

Niantician wrote: My opinion would be that if you are too small to properly grip a 45acp handgun, you're most likely too small to handle any 45cal recoil, at least in a combat situation. I'm 5'7" 170lbs, and I carry a double stack 45acp very well. If you're smaller than me, and can't grip a 45acp, maybe you should stop kidding yourself and buy a 9mm. Oh and "too bad this thread isn't about the 45acp"?? That's funny, I thought the 45gap used a 45acp bullet.


At first glance I thought that perhaps this was an attempt at humor; the statement was just to absurd to be taken seriously. But me thinks you were actually serious. I respect your right to voice an opinion, but please.

I don't really think the discussion at hand has anything to do with any one persons ability to handle the recoil of the .45acp:rolleyes:.

I for one have a difficult time wrapping my mitts around the Glock 21. This fact presents a dilemma of sorts for me, as I like the Glock platform, and in order to find a full size .45 in a Glock that fits my hand properly I really need to go with the GAP line. The size of my paws has very little to do with my ability to handle recoil. I will concede one point to you however. My ability to properly grip a particular handgun would be of utmost importance under stress. For this reason I am taking a serious look at the GAP in the form of the Glock 37.

If you prefer a double stack .45acp in whatever platform you choose, good on ya, and feel free to exercise your given right as a consumer to purchase whatever handgun suits your fancy. But there really is no need to chastise anyone else for doing the same.;)

[Niantician]

Not trying to chastise anyone. I'm sure there are many exceptions to my opinion. Which is why I used the terms "my opinion" and "most likely". We are all very passionate about the calibers we choose to carry, and for good reason. I don't find the caliber useful, and since the title of the thread is "45gap, WHAT SAY YOU?" I thought, opinions from both sides were welcome. That was my opinion, and instead of getting offended, maybe you should take it to heart. I've changed calibers and bullet weights a couple times based off people's honest opinions from TFL.

[rgillis]

Niantician wrote:
Not trying to chastise anyone. I'm sure there are many exceptions to my opinion. Which is why I used the terms "my opinion" and "most likely". We are all very passionate about the calibers we choose to carry, and for good reason. I don't find the caliber useful, and since the title of the thread is "45gap, WHAT SAY YOU?" I thought, opinions from both sides were welcome. That was my opinion, and instead of getting offended, maybe you should take it to heart. I've changed calibers and bullet weights a couple times based off people's honest opinions from TFL.

Not offended by any means my friend;), and you certainly are entitled to your opinion.

However, I'm confused by the last part of you previous post as it seems to be arguing exactly the same point I was attempting to make. That point being, we should all use what works best for us, and if it's a GAP then so be it.

Now if you were to ask if I wished that Glock would have decided to solve the problem by manufacturing a full size single stack .45acp? My answer to you would be an enthusiastic HELL YES!

[Socrates]

The benefit of these discussions is the dialectic process. By trying to substantiate a position like, "I have no use for the Glock."

Or in my case, I haven't really thought much about it, the actual discussion creates a more informed consumer, and, makes the opinion a well thought out, educated opinion, rather then a sensory response like,
"I don't like purple glocks."
"I don't like redheads who carry glocks." etc.

While these are opinions, they aren't particularly welcome, since they don't often lead to intelligent discussion, about how those opinions were formed.

I've learned a ton about a caliber I had, at first glance, no intrest in. Yet, I'm always trying to get the hardest hitting caliber I can shoot well, into the smallest gun possible.
Glock has sort of done that with the 39, giving you a 3.48" barrel, coupled with a 45 ACP end result. It recoils less, since they accomplished this with minimal pressure increase, and, for the caliber, with light bullets, it uses powder more efficently then the 45 ACP. It also uses 45 bullets, so I don't have to add a caliber, or reloading dies.

Now the question becomes what to shoot out of it, and, if I'm happy with the 230 grain bullets, or, should I try for light fast out of it, and, can I get close?

Looks like the best I can get out of the Glock is a
155 at 1152.
185 at 1017
200 at 1000
230 Hornady doesn't list

45 ACP
185 @ 975
200 @ 950
230 @ 960

45 super
WOW Hogdons loads for 45 Super are 100 fps under what
buffalobore.com loads at.

So, I'm not going to get 1350 fps out of the Gap, which leaves me with 230 grain bullets, or 200's at 1000 fps.

Let's look at double tap, and see what they get out of comparable calibers:
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"
DoubleTap .45ACP
Looks like the GAP can use heavier bullets, but, looses about 100 fps, and mag capacity to the 27 Glock.

185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"


DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

OK:
So, currently I have a 45 Super level 45 1911 that works great. Full size, can't use for CCW around here, but ok for HD, target shooting, etc.

For SD CCW I have a 357 magnum, that, runs 125 grain bullets at 1204 fps, or, maybe the fusion stuff at 1100 fps. And Federals 158's are supposed to be in the 1100-1200 fps.

Now, where does the GAP fit in? It won't go light and fast, 115 grain bullet at 1350 fps, and, it won't go heavy and slow, 250's at 950 fps.

45 ACP/Super With Macnetts 230 grain bullets looks really good, 230 grains at 1010, and, I might get that out of a Commander, or better, CCO sized gun.

Looming in the background is the Glock 29. It will go light fast, and do it well. Ammo would mean reloading for another caliber, however.

The Glock 30 has been known to run 45 Super, but, my gunsmith says it won't stay closed long enough, and may wear out quickly, along with the chamber sizes, which means an after market barrel for better barrel support, and, using cheaper brass, so it's more like 45 Detonics. Now the cost advantage of the 30 goes down, since, IIRC, the tighter barrels are about 200 bucks from Lone Wolfe.

My conclusion?

I have an additional possibility to consider. The GAP might fit in in that it's a very small auto, with 45 ACP ballistics.
No reloading costs added, and, it uses powder better then the 45 ACP, and is avaliable in 9mm sized guns. For heavy bullets. Since mag capacity in Kali is 10, it fits in well, compared to the 26/27 9mm/40's.

So, that adds the Glock 39 for consideration, along with the 29 and 30. Or, I might also just pick up a Model 60, carry two guns, have 10 round capacity, and, the extra inch on the 3" model 60 gives me real 357 ballistics.

For CCW in our area, the police chief approves DA only guns, and Glocks:rolleyes::barf: Try and tell me how a Glock is DA...
Anyway, my 1911 will not pass CCW here, so that leaves the 360PD, which will, and I can qualify with another gun, maybe a Glock.

Maybe I should just save the money and move...:rolleyes:

[Chui]

For CCW in our area, the police chief approves DA only guns, and Glocks Try and tell me how a Glock is DA...

Anyway, my 1911 will not pass CCW here, so that leaves the 360PD, which will, and I can qualify with another gun, maybe a Glock.

That is very, very odd, Socrates... Double Action guns only... Any particular reason he finds Single Action firearms non-suited? Where exactly do you reside? One would think what he's choosing to do is unlawful.

The Glock, M&P, XD are all Double Action Only-type of actions are they not? While I find them all superb for fighting I find the 1911 easier to carry despite it's mass.

[Socrates]

Chui:

People's Republic of Kalifornia, in, an actually conservative area. Good news is the new chief at least issues CCW's. The prior guy hadn't issued one in over 30 years.

Illegal? ALL state and federal restrictions on firearms are illegal, if you read the Second Amendment on it's face. Second amendment was intentionally applied to the Federal government, which has violated that trust with it's restrictive laws, and policies.

Through the 14th amendment, the 2nd should have also been applied to the states, another over site by the Supreme Court, which gutted the 14th amendment with the Slaughterhouse cases.

Odd they rule in favor of states rights then, but haven't in nearly 100 years after...

Have to pick the legal battles you want to fight. Guess I could take that one on. Working on it.

There was a LEO shooting, by accident, where someone put their finger in the trigger guard, and did not intend to fire.
Girl if I remember. Maybe on Youtube. Perhaps he thinks the heavy trigger pull will insure that the shot, if it occurs, is totally intended by the shooter.

I would certainly argue that cocking the hammer on a SA, or, flipping the safety off a 1911, squeezing the grip, and pulling the trigger accomplishes the same thing.

Knowing the former armour for our city, I strongly suspect
the new guy is just your average guy, knows little, and is trying to be 'politically correct'.

s esq.

PS I have yet to see the list. Apparently it's like any other law about guns, arbitrary.
Glocks are ok, even full auto glocks if you have one:eek: 1911's aren't. Go figure...

[JohnKSa]

The Glock, M&P, XD are all Double Action Only-type of actions are they not?They work very differently if you look at the internals.

The Glock slide compresses the striker spring about 50% by distance (around 25% by energy) and the trigger pull completes the compression and releases the striker to fire the gun. It's not a true DA since the trigger won't do anything unless the slide does the pre-tensioning and it's not a true SA since the trigger must complete the tensioning proces, it doesn't merely release the striker.

The XD slide does nearly all of the striker spring compression and the trigger does very little other than release the striker to fire the gun. Internally it's pretty much an SA gun but externally it operates very much like other "DAO" guns so most people assume it is.

I don't know the details of the M&P's internal operation, perhaps someone else can fill in those details.

[slim whitman]

I have a good quantity of Federal American Eagle G.A.P. ammuntion for sale - 185 FMJ if anyone is interested - IM

If this post is in the wrong forum, please let me know

Thanks

sw