CMP High Power Shooters?

[Reidman]

I shot my first high power match last September and despite my poor shooting :rolleyes: I enjoyed it greatly. The range master let me use one of the club guns, a Bushy HBAR. I finally have the time to get back into shooting and I plan on getting involved in some matches this spring. Right now I have been practicing with a Daewoo DR-200 I picked up from my uncle. It shoots ok and I like shooting with it but if something major breaks I have to go to Korea to get it fixed.

So for all those CMP shooters out there...

1) What is your rifle of choice?

2) How much coin did you drop?

3) Any advice besides practice practice practice?

[P-990]

If you want to shoot CMP matches (Excellence in Competition matches, the P-100 and NTI at Camp Perry) and NRA matches, an AR-15 in a Service Rifle configuration is pretty much THE rifle to get. Nothing else worthwhile, unless you want to get into a true Match Rifle.

Good rifles are available out of the box from Rock River, Armalite and even DPMS:
Rock River NM (http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR1285X&storeid=1&image=nma2407.gif&CFID=5827510&CFTOKEN=20387039)

Armalite NM (http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=15A2NM&Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822)

Also as an option, you can buy an upper from White Oak (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/) and mate it to a lower of your choosing.

Expect to drop between $1000 and $1500 for the rifle.

Really, you need a free-float tube, 1/2-MOA (or finer) sights and a good trigger. Fine points will vary on experience and preference. Slings will vary also; some use the cotton M-1 type, others of us use the 1907-pattern.

Oh yeah, and practice practice practice. Dry-firing at home helps, as does range time at reduced ranges and at full-course ranges. Trigger time helps, but it has to be quality, well practiced and rehearsed trigger time. Blowing ammo for the sake of making noise is counter-productive to good habits. (I use a .22 or pistols for those gotta-blast days.)

Get into reloading, as it will save you a bundle of money on good match ammo and is the ONLY way to get satisfactory 600-yard loads IMO. I started off buying into the "shoot cheap ball ammo (or similar reloads) for practice" philosophy, but quickly switched to shooting my best bullets all the time. Most ball ammo is good only if you're happy to shoot edge to edge on the 7" 10-ring at 200 and 300. Otherwise it is a waste of barrel-life on a match barrel to shoot anything but the good stuff.

Lastly, my personal rifle is an Armalite M-15NM with stock sights, stock trigger, a WOA 1-7" Wilson barrel (replaced the original). It works for me, shoots accurately and is very forgiving to shoot. I use a Turner Biothane All-weather sling of the 1907-pattern. Other gear can be added as you grow, but a good rifle will stay with you.

Good luck and stick with it! A few matches and some serious practice and you'll be surprised how well you can shoot and how far you can do it.

[rbrgs]

If you start shooting High Power matches, you'll hear this a lot: "Get a Garand"

[MythBuster]

If you want to progress quickly in highpower competition the Garand is the LAST rifle you want.

If two shooters of about the same ability start off, one with a Garand and the other with an AR, the AR shooter will make expert in less than half the time it will take the Garand shooter.

The AR is so much eaiser and quicker to master.

[Logs]

Shot my second match this summer at Camp Perry. I used my Garand which I have about $500 in. A buddy of mine is going the AR15 route and he has over $1,500 in his gun. I recommend the Garand since the CMP has them for a great price. GOOD Luck.

[rbrgs]

I didn't say shoot a Garand, just get one. It's the rifle our guys carried when they won the war--every serious rifleman needs one.

[nbkky71]

rbrgs: don't confuse the John C. Garand matches with the CMP National Trophy matches. While you can shoot an M1 in the trophy matches, the firing line is dominated by the AR15 nowadays. A accurized M1 Garand rifle can be built, but it will set you back some serious $$$, and is more maintenance-intensive to keep it accurate.

A good starter would be a service rifle upper from John Holliger at white oak armament. They are quite affordable and shoot very well. I've been shooting one for 3 years now and am on my third barrel. I'm shooting a standard Bushmaster XM15E2 lower. Spend the money and get a good trigger too. I shot a Rock River tuned NM trigger until I upgraded to a Geiselle this year. Well worth the $279!

The key to shooting well is mastering the basics: 1) position 2) breathing 3) trigger control and 4) sight alignment. Consistency is important as well.

The truth is that practice is important, but be sure to make it quality practice. As P-990 said, shooting just to make noise is counter-productive. I shoot live-fire once a week on Sunday morning and I shoot no more than 50 rounds at a time. Anything more feels like a waste to me.

It's also important to take periodic breaks as well. I had been shooting for the past year and felt like I had plateau'd at EXPERT level. After taking a couple months off I came back into the sport and my scores shot up. It paid off because I just got my MASTER class card in the mail today! :)

[Tim R]

If you want to progress quickly in highpower competition the Garand is the LAST rifle you want.

Not always so! If you want to pass up the guy who started out with the AR shoot the 30 until it won't move you around while in position then get the AR. The problem is the 30 is twice the money to shoot even if you reload.

Reidman......

RRA makes a very good NM service rifle which will take you to master right out the box. The other thing that comes with the RRA NM is their 2 stage trigger which is one of the better 2 stage triggers available until you get into the big bucks.

When I went from a match tuned 308 M-1 to the AR 3 years ago, I bought a RRA NM lower, and a upper from http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/. I had about $1100.00 in a top shelf match tuned service rifle. One thing I really like is the pinned rear sights WOP does. This keeps the rear sight from moving back and forth. The other thing I like is the rear sight comes with different size's of rear aperture's which can be changed depending on the light. I like and use 1/4 X 1/4 MOA sights on the AR.

I now have 2 WOP uppers. Both shoot 77 and 80 gr Match Kings like a house of fire. I could not be more happy with either upper. I took the new upper to Perry this year. The one thing I hate with these rifles is if the bullet doesn't go where you wanted it to, it's not the rifle and it's not the ammo.

I hate this time of year as range time is hard to get, I don't think my 4X4 would make into the range.

As for the sling, I use a leather sling after being treated with neats foot oil and streched over night. Just keep the oil away from the keepers.

[rbrgs]

I bought a Bushmaster through the CMP in 2000, later I put on a bloop tube and aperture front sight, but what I actually shoot these days is an AR15 service rifle that looks like a 1965 M16, not a 1985 M16A2 (I had to grind out the insides of the A1 handguards to make them fit the free float tube, the barrel is 1X12 so I can shoot 55gr ball, the sights are 1/2MOA...it makes sense to me)
When I just shoot for fun, I shoot a Garand or .30 Carbine, but then I never shoot beyond 200yds 'cause I live on an island (Hawaii) and our club is the only place I can shoot without flying somewhere.

[Casimer]

Reidman are these CMP matches 100yd matches? - how far will you be shooting?

If they're 100yd matches, a Garand is probably fine. BUT if you're going to be shooting to 300 or 600 yards with pit service (i.e. live people in pits under your targets), you shouldn't shoot a Garand unless you've had it worked on. It's a safety issue.

If you're considering an AR, check out nationalmatch.us - it's an HP forum w/ a buy/swap/sell section. You can put together a decent match AR for a lot less than a new one.

[kittyhawk]

PM sent


Dave

[Scorch]

are these CMP matches 100yd matches?CMP= Civilian Marksmanship Program

CMP shoots are typical of other matches. They are shot at actual and reduced distances, across-the-course or one position, three distances or one distance, in other words they are varied to meet the needs and abilities of the shooters and the capabilities of the firing range. They are a great way to get used to the rules and procedures of firing matches. Ask who directs them at your local gun club.

[Reidman]

The matches at my range are 100 yards with reduced size targets to simulate range. I would like to travel sometime to check out a true 600 yard match. Camp Perry is a name I hear a lot around here.

The range master also teaches a class at the college here in town. I shot small bore at 50ft and earned expert rank. That's what started it all...:rolleyes:

Rock River is a rifle I have been looking at for a while. From what I hear its the best intersection of quality and value available.

[nbkky71]

...you shouldn't shoot a Garand unless you've had it worked on. It's a safety issue

Any M1 with a good condition barrel should be easily able to hit paper at 500/600 yards (assuming the shooter is doing their part). You may not shoot a great score, but you won't be unsafe.

If your rifle is having a genuine safety issue, it shouldn't be on the firing line in the first place.

[Casimer]

I can definitely recommend the RRA National Match A2. That's what I'd started with. They're quality rifles.

By safety issue, I don't mean that the rifle is going to explode, I mean that the rifle may be so inaccurate that it endangers the pit crew. If the standard is simply getting on paper, then there's also a good chance that you're off paper and hitting target frames, carriers, and other hard objects away from the targets. I'm sure that if you called the CMP and asked them whether you should take your newly received rack/field/service grade Garand to a 600yd XTC match they'd tell you to have it worked on by a gunsmith first.

[nbkky71]

If the M1 can't hit a 72" target at 600 yards, then any serious competitor should realize that something is wrong well before they walked up the long line. Most M1's will shoot around 4MOA, on average...maybe a little less using quality ammo. True, an inaccurate rifle can be a danger to others. At such point a line official should prevent the competitor from firing any further.

I'm sure that the CMP will tell you that in order to be competitive in an XTC match you'll need to have your M1 worked on (ie - accurized). You'll get no arguments from me on that point. I just recently took posession a full-tilt match M1 built on a Springfield 5.8mil receiver that will shoot around 1.5MOA using M852 ammo. Believe me, it cost a pretty penny to get that level of accuracy.

Yes, there are certain things that you'll want to check out with any M1 before you start shooting, such as a snug gas cylinder and tight gas cylinder plug. But to call an M1 unsafe just because it's a rack/service grade rifle is a bit much.

fyi... I have shot my CMP service grade H&R 5.7mil at 600 yards using Greek M2 ball. It wasn't the best score I've ever shot, but all rounds were on-paper.

[rbrgs]

The minimum acceptable accuracy for an issued Garand is 4MOA. Every CMP Garand that I've shot (and that's plenty) would hold at most 3" at 100yds; that's 18" at 600 with M2 ball (and yes, I have shot LC68 at 600yds through an as issued Garand, I even won the match)
If you're hitting the target frame, don't blame the rifle.
PS How many people hit the target frame with a 1/4MOA Space Gun 'cause they misjudged the wind? The one time I shot at a range with pits, the frames were wood. Sounds like unsafe range design to have steel over the pit crews head. Anybody else? Is it common for target frames to be made out of steel?

[Casimer]

If you guys are attending matches where they'll allow you to use ball ammo at 600yds, then we're dealing w/ entirely different standards of safety. Good luck - wear a helmet!

[rbrgs]

Casimer, where exactly do you shoot that they don't "allow" ball ammo? CMP Competition Rules, 10th edition, 6.6.1 Rifle Ammunition "If ammunition is not issued by the match sponsor, rifle competitors may use any safe ammunition..."
I don't have my NRA book in front of me, but their rule is the same. What exactly is unsafe about shooting 18" on a 72" target? And compared to Joe Beginner with a 1/4MOA Space Gun who has no experience judging the wind (assuming he even has a 600yd zero). Where do you think 2 and 8 came from?
Have you ever even shot a Garand?
The CMP sells Garands so folks can get into High Power without spending a lot of money; it replaces the old Dep't of Civilian Marksmanship, which was all about getting M1 Garands (one per lifetime, but they were cheap) into the hands of High Power Competitors. For you AR guys who just tuned in, the M1 Garand was the Service rifle for several generations, while Match Rifles were almost all bolt guns.

[nbkky71]

Since when is ball ammo unsafe?

The CMP says that competitors may use any safe ammunition. The NRA says no tracers (and possibly no AP ammo). Any ammo may be fired without danger to competitors or range personnel. Ammo that repeatedly blows primers or splits cases can be ruled unsafe.

If you're hitting everything else BUT the target then there's probably something else wrong other than your ammo.

[Tim R]

I have not shot ball at 600 out of a M-1 myself, but I know people who have. Casimer.....I'm not sure what M-1's you have dealt with but I have a CMP service grade which shoots very nice if I do my part. Reloads tighten it up even more. I also have a CMP field grade with a VAR barrel which shows promise but I haven't wrung it out yet. First impressions are good though. These are not my 600 yard guns but I would shoot the service grade out to 600 with no problem. I wonder if you have thought of what they were shooting back in the day when M-14's had not shown up yet? Not every one could afford a tuned M-1.

I know some old timers who can still remember what lot numbers shot the best in the 173 gr. match ammo.

When I was shooting for the Navy, I saw many a as issued M-14 being fired at the Fleet matches. Didn't seem to slow too many guys down. I will admit those who were shooting the better scores had tuned M-14's, but like I said not everyone had one.

We have a Jr. in my circle of shooting friends who has shot a M-1 out to 600 more than a couple of times. He's 15 years old. While his scores were lower than the rest of us, he is a up and coming force. The club just got a couple of RRA NM's and even us Masters are worried the kid is going to thump us one of these days very shortly.

Reidman your choice of the RRA NM is a wise one. Excellent rifles.

One more thing. I've shot at several different ranges in several different States. None had steel target frames, non had steel holding the target frames. I have shot a a couple of ranges which had steel above the people in the pits head which the steel was flat on the ground. This kept rocks, dirt and sand from showering down when someone hit the burm once in awhile. It also provided shade. This pit pig liked the set up.

[mountainclmbr]

What is it about AR's that make them better for High Power besides reduced recoil? I have a Garand and a SA M1A, but no AR. Never shot High Power, but trying to make time in my schedule to take a course. The club offers their own guns - AR's or you can bring your won gun and ammo. Any strong recommendations?

[Swampy1]

What is it about AR's that make them better for High Power besides reduced recoil?

Nothing really..... The reduced recoil of the AR15 and 5.56mm cartridge combo make it MUCH easier to hold a solid position (Thus better scores.) during the rapid fire stages. The heavier recoil of the .30 cal platforms make it a LOT harder to hold hard during the rapids. This is where the smaller black rifle usually and on average wins out over the bigger wood and steel rifles.

The slow fire prone and standing stages are a wash between the two, accuracy wise. There it comes down to shooter subjectivity as to which one he shoots best with.

Just an example: I shoot a Match Grade M1 in .308 chambering both across the course and in 600 yard belly matches. I have never been able to break out of Expert class in the X-course events due to my relatively mediocre rapid fire scores..... but in the all prone 600 events I am able to KAATN with my old M1. My last two 600 events ended with me taking High Service Rifle over all the Masters and High Masters shooting AR's. At the Planet Matches in August I shot a 776-26X (above HM break point) and at the MO NRA 600 Championships in October I ended with a 774-30X (Upper end of Master class, only two points off HM.).

Accuracy wise a good tuned .30 don't give up much to the .22 AR....

Just my 2 bits,

Best to all,
swampy

Garands forever

[Scorch]

Any strong recommendations?Take your rifle and 70 rounds of ammo and try a CMP shoot if you want to ease into High-Power shooting. It's a non-stressful alternative to shooting an actual match. Many clubs shoot the same course of fire as an actual match, plus you can get help on the firing line from experienced shooters who will likely share a lot of knowledge with you as a new shooter.

What is it about AR's that make them better for High Power besides reduced recoil?1- In real matches, you will shoot up a lot of ammo, and ARs are cheaper to feed.
2- They are also inherently more accurate than a wood stocked, long operating rod, two-lug autoloader, and you can get an exceptionally accurate AR for thousands of dollars less than an exceptionally accurate M14 or Garand (please, no flames, that's just the way it is).

[Casimer]

Gentlemen please take another look at my earlier posts - I'm not saying that the M1 is unsafe, or that ball ammo is unsafe to shoot. The safety of the rifle and ammo to the shooter isn't the issue. What I'm arguing is that an untouched CMP Garand doesn't tend to possess the necessary accuracy for mid-range shooting, out to 600yds - ball ammo often exacerbates the problem. I know that the CMP allows ball ammo, but NRA XTC matches that I attend often do not - e.g. New Holland Pennsylvania and IIRC Bridgeville DE. Now I don't know what would happen if you showed up w/ ball ammo not knowing any better, but I do know that you'd be told not do so again. There are legitimate safety issues that arise when you have the potential for a high percentage of shots off-target. You may have a 3-4 MOA rifle on the rest, but none of us are 0 MOA shooters, unless one of you is Carl Bernosky.

These are issues that have been hashed-out repeatedly on nationalmatch.us, and concerns that are held by a lot of competitors and match directors.

[P-990]

What is it about AR's that make them better for High Power besides reduced recoil?

Beer-budget friendliness, ease of maintenance, ease of shootability, good barrel life, good to excellent accuracy and drop-in-parts that really work are reasons I can think of off the top of my head. Really, at 600 yards a good 80gr load will hang with a .30-caliber load.

IMO, the M-1/M-14 types are better laid out for shooting, especially offhand, but the AR is more shooter-friendly, if that makes any sense. The dinosaur rifles will shoot with the AR, but not as cheaply and easily from what I have seen.

Oddly enough, when I stopped shooting my dad's stock 03A3 and M-1 at our 300-yd league, and just shot the match AR, my scores went way up. It turned out I was holding better than those rifles would shoot, and I went from 170-180 scores to 190+ on that MR-63 target. Still, get an M-1 to collect because they're still available, but be realistic about what you're equipment is capable of if you use it to learn to shoot Highpower.