Effect of cancellation of .mil trials on the joint combat pistol?

[FirstFreedom]

My gun shop guy tells me that he thinks it's unlikely that the Taurus OSS and other brands' advertised new models will ever actually materialize, due to the cancellation of the US Military trials for the JCP - true?

Maybe he just wants me to buy one of the other guns he DOES have right now. ;)

[PSP]

What is the difference between the 24/7 and the OSS?

[Manedwolf]

Who says the US is the only customer for the OSS?

IMI is selling the Tavor all over the world, and the US isn't a customer. They're not even allowed to be imported here.

[Bart Noir]

The new .45 M&P from S&W must have been designed for the competion. it has a frame mounted safety that the earlier M&P versions do not.

And isn't HK advertising their new .45? I can't remember the model number as I don't keep up with HK's models.

Bart Noir

[whitebb]

My thinking is they would bring it to the commercial market. You spend a lot of money engineering a pistol for the government, and they pull out. You are still stuck with engineering expenses and some tolling expenses. The only way to get the return on your money is to market it to the civilian market, and if its a great pistol, make some $$.

[HorseSoldier]

I think the OSS is the only JCP submission that has not made it to market yet. HK 45s are just now shipping, M&P 45 is out, Glock 21SF is out, and Sig 220 Combat has been available for a while.

[IdahoG36]

The new .45 M&P from S&W must have been designed for the competion. it has a frame mounted safety that the earlier M&P versions do not.
I believe it was. I don't know if the GLOCK 21SF was designed for the trial. It does not have a manual safety. I thought that Socom wanted DA/SA capability also, which would exclude the M&P and GLOCK.

[MTMilitiaman]

It was. I don't believe that the GLOCK 21SF was designed for the trial. It does not have a manual safety.

I believe you are correct, but it is common for people to assume the 'SF' means "Special Forces," when it doesn't, and I suppose it is logical to assume that a major force in the industry would submit a handgun to the trials in order to stay competitive, and since Glock's only recent product addition is the 21SF, I suppose it would follow that could be it.

I also think it is interesting that as far as we know, Glock didn't submit a pistol to the trials or have a submission ready, or in any way make a run for the contract. That could only mean they believe they have enough of the police and civilian markets to not need the military contract.

[tulsamal]

That could only mean they believe they have enough of the police and civilian markets to not need the military contract.

Glock didn't participate in some earlier military trials because they were unwilling to agree to some of the terms. Specifically they were unwilling to allow US production. Think of the Beretta 92. First they bought made in Italy pistols. Then the parts were made in Italy and assembled in the US. And finally they were totally made in the US.

The US military doesn't want to have a general issue weapon which is only produced in a foreign country.

Gregg

[Rob96]

The G21SF was geared towards the SOCOM pistol trials. SOCOM came first before the JCP program.

[ragwd]

I thought the 21SF meant slim frame ???

[Rob96]

I thought the 21SF meant slim frame ???

It does.

[RevolvingCylinder]

The US military doesn't want to have a general issue weapon which is only produced in a foreign country.
And that's a good thing. If there ever comes a time where we have total war, we'll need to be able to make our own. Most people have forgotten the vital role manufacturing capabilities play in total war.

[Wrangler5]

I thought I had read that the winner of a US military weapon competition had to essentially surrender its patent rights as part of the deal. They may be able to make/sell the guns for a while, but at some point the gummint can decide to let others in on the program and go with the low bidder. Leaving the original winner with only the bragging rights.

I'm not a patent lawyer or government procurement expert. Just what I've heard.

[IdahoG36]

If there ever comes a time where we have total war, we'll need to be able to make our own.

This is very true. There are some weapons that the military currently use that are produced here by foreign companies. FN builds M-16s in South Carolina for use with our forces, and HK builds the 416 and 417 here also.

[HorseSoldier]

I believe you are correct, but it is common for people to assume the 'SF' means "Special Forces," when it doesn't, and I suppose it is logical to assume that a major force in the industry would submit a handgun to the trials in order to stay competitive, and since Glock's only recent product addition is the 21SF, I suppose it would follow that could be it.

G21SF is basically the JCP submission, minus the cross bar safety above the trigger (which was added to the drawing board when Big Army jumped on the SOCOM project, delaying and then ultimately killing it, but that's another topic). While officially SF does mean "Slim Frame," it is a deliberate play on words with "Special Forces" on the part of Glock, and why they didn't call it the "RD" reduced grip model or similar.

I also think it is interesting that as far as we know, Glock didn't submit a pistol to the trials or have a submission ready, or in any way make a run for the contract. That could only mean they believe they have enough of the police and civilian markets to not need the military contract.

Because the world is full of corporations who don't want more money? :confused: As far as I know, the Glock 21 was submitted for the SOCOM-only contract as is, and then was modified when the SOCOM contract bloated up into the JCP with its Big Army specific requirements. It may not be in Glocks' financial interest to mess around with a US production capability for the onesies and twosies they sell to law enforcement and civilians here in the US, but if Gaston & Co. can't turn a profit on a 645,000 unit contract (+ spare parts and replacement weapons for the next 30 years), even with a CONUS manufacturing requirement, I'm amazed they ever even got started in the kitchen magnet business or whatever he was doing pre-Glock 17.

And that's a good thing. If there ever comes a time where we have total war, we'll need to be able to make our own. Most people have forgotten the vital role manufacturing capabilities play in total war.

It's an entirely moot point what company we buy weapons from, since federal law stipulates that anything we adopt beyond very small scale contracts has to be manufactured here in the US. This is why FN has a factory here to make M249s and M240s (in addition to M16s), this is why Beretta has a factory here for M9s, why HK keeps looking at a CONUS manufacturing capability, etc.

HK builds the 416 and 417 here also

They are in the process of developing US production capability, but existing 416s in US military service were built in Germany. As were the MP5s we use (technically, some of those are Brugger & Thomet weapons manufactured in Switzerland/Turkey). US manufacturing requirements only kick in above a certain threshold for # procured, and so some limited use weapons can slip through the cracks (i.e. I believe most if not all M11 Sig pistols in US service were made overseas, but the much larger Beretta contract required US production capability).