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View Full Version : Start Dumpin em now Model 70s are coming back


Wildalaska
October 17, 2007, 05:38 PM
Should start shipping again in Jul-September 2008...I have no idea what SKUs will be available first.

So much for Model 70 speculation :)

WildgoodnewsfortodayAlaska ™

ZeroJunk
October 17, 2007, 05:57 PM
Cool.I have been looking at them on GunBroker.Prices all over the place.It will be interesting to see where they make them and what the quality will be.I need another one like another hole in my head,but I feel it coming.

joab
October 17, 2007, 06:04 PM
Is this the Mossberg concern's work

mudstud
October 17, 2007, 06:38 PM
The fact that Model 70's are coming back is old news. What is interesting, is now we have heard a halfways specific time frame. However, the new Model 70's should be at the Shot Show (more old news), so we will possibly then have an indication of what models will be available. I'm certainly not "dumping" any of my Model 70's, just because they will once again be available. I highly doubt the new Model 70 will be as cheap as they were before they closed New Haven. The prices of new guns are going up fast, and the new Model 70's will certainly be priced to "compete" with their competition.

Let's see, a new Remington 700 CDL SF is $900 at my local money pit, with the WSM's being another $50. Does any body seriously think a new Model 70 Classic Stainless Featherweight, if these will in fact, be once again available, are gonna somehow be CHEAPER than the Remington? Not likely, friends and neighbors.

There are those individuals, of course, who seriously overpaid for their Model 70's, based on speculation, panic, or whatever. But the majority of Model 70's sold after the closing of New Haven, that I have witnessed, when the actual SELLING price is considered, weren't all that high. Couple that with the fact that the price of new guns is going up fast, and I think the majority of persons who bought Model 70's during the "panic" will turn out OK.

There, of course, was a lot of trolling for suckers going on, but I don't think all that many of those were actually sold for their exorbitant asking price. Certain SPECIFIC model and caliber combinations did sell for very high prices, such as the Classic Stainless 375 H&H, and it may be difficult to recoup that money if, and when, a new Model 70 is available at a lesser price. But, overall, I still believe, that those who purchased Model 70's at anything even approaching a reasonable price, will be just fine.

Not to mention, certain caliber and model combinations, will certainly not be available in the future. Does any body expect to see a 7mmSTW again? A 300RUM? Or for that matter, maybe even the WSSM's? All instant collectors items there.

I can't see any further down the hole than anybody else, but I expect the new Model 70's will once again eventually be produced as a full line, with Super Grades, Classics and Wally World CRPF's all competing for their market niche. Possibly the Wally World Model 70's will be as cheap, or nearly, as the 2005 models, but I doubt the Classics or Super Grades will be.

Once again, I ain't "dumping" a doggone one!! :D:D ('Course I'm not "buried" in any of mine!). YMMV

FirstFreedom
October 17, 2007, 07:51 PM
1. Doesn't matter if you deal only in pre-64s anyhow, as my acquaintances do (not me).

2. Regardless, there will be *some* premium to an American-made "pre-08" used 70, over a foreign-made used 70, however small of a premium that that may turn out to be.

3. Glad to hear it - thanks for the info - choice is good - where will they be made?

4. Any word on the 94s?

Smitty in CT
October 17, 2007, 08:11 PM
Should start shipping again in Jul-September 2008...I have no idea what SKUs will be available first.

So much for Model 70 speculation

Any word on country of origin?? The last rumor I heard was it was going to be a lower priced A-Bolt???

Is this the Mossberg concern's work

I haven't heard this one...please elaborate???

Wildalaska
October 17, 2007, 08:27 PM
They will be made in the FN plant in SC

WildwherethenewhavenmachinerynowresidesAlaska ™

ZeroJunk
October 17, 2007, 08:58 PM
Wildandwheretheunionsdon't

bobn
October 17, 2007, 09:38 PM
whatever zero. and management took a big cut too i suppose....bobn

Mike Irwin
October 17, 2007, 10:57 PM
Doesn't matter to me.

I like Remingtons.

riddleofsteel
October 18, 2007, 08:46 PM
I doubt the first 100 off of the line will outshoot any odd 100 Savages of identical calibers right out of the box.

:p

rampage841512
October 18, 2007, 08:51 PM
I was hoping for some news like this.

DPris
October 18, 2007, 08:54 PM
Winchester/Browning says no 94s in 2008.
Denis

joshua
October 19, 2007, 03:46 AM
Hmmm... I like model 70s with the CRF. I haven't seen any FN made BA rifles under $800. There is hope... josh

biglabsrule
October 20, 2007, 11:43 AM
I don't plan on dumping my model 70, I can't leave her she's my baby....

Slugthrower
October 21, 2007, 07:28 AM
Not surprising that FN will be making the Model 70. Their precision "tactical" bolt action rifles use the pre-64 model 70 action. It would only make sense, since they have the machines and tools to do so. Now, the question is will they be made with wood stocks or will they be synthetic stocked as the current rifles are and what chamberings will they have?

FN is making the Winchester shotguns too, look at the ones they have on their web site closely.
Maybe they will make the lever guns eventually as well. Time will tell.

DPris
October 21, 2007, 11:30 AM
Where do you think FN got those Model 70 & shotgun actions from? They were not making their own at the same time the USRAC plant was turning them out. :)
One of the most likely speculations when the New Haven plant closed was that one or more of the three models made there would eventually be produced in the Carolinas by the FN plant.
Denis

mudstud
October 23, 2007, 07:52 PM
I am not able to verify this, but this was found on another forum. The new Model 70's will be built in SC, and delivery will begin in June of 2008. The new Model 70's will be offered initially in four models, all Classics. The Super Grade will be offered in 30-06 and 300WM for MSRP of $1149. A Featherweight Deluxe will be offered in long and short action calibers including WSM's, for $999 to $1049. The Sporter Deluxe will be available in similar calibers as the Featherweight, and for similar prices. An Extreme Weather SS, with a Bell and Carlson stock and fluted SS barrel is to be marked at $1149 to $1199.

If this info is indeed accurate, it shows Winchester is not going after the mass market, at least initially. For these prices, customers will expect an extremely well built rifle. No mention of the Wally World models, or any CRPF models.

Once again, I am not able to verify this on either Winchesters webpage, or Brownings. This originally appeared on www.leverguns.com this afternoon. Cheers!! :D:D

azjohn
October 23, 2007, 08:32 PM
No way I am getting rid of my 54 yr old Md 70. It's a family hand me down that is 1 yr older than me. Grandfather to son;father to son. John

DPris
October 23, 2007, 09:02 PM
Winchester isn't going after any market. There is no longer an actual Winchester company. It's now merely a brand name licensed from Olin Corp to allow Browning to market guns produced by FNH & Miroku (& possibly one or two other makers here & there :) ) that can be labeled as Winchesters for the name recognition value.
Models & marketing will be decided by Browning & FNH.
Denis

guntotin_fool
October 24, 2007, 01:39 AM
They aint yankee winchesters, they are not showing up in my house.

joshua
October 24, 2007, 06:32 AM
If my sons ever buy me one I'll accept it with open arms and a big ear to ear smile. Yipper! josh

MeekAndMild
October 24, 2007, 04:20 PM
Wild, if I dumped my Winnie I wouldn't have anything to complain about any more. :rolleyes:

FirstFreedom
October 24, 2007, 11:36 PM
They aint yankee winchesters, they are not showing up in my house.

Only thing better than a yankee winchester is a Dixie winchester made in South Carolina. :)

tulsamal
October 25, 2007, 09:14 AM
There is no longer an actual Winchester company.

I understand what you are saying but the important thing is that there are still Winchester _designs_ and that is what will be produced by FN. They aren't going to just import some Czech bolt action and roll mark Winchester on it.

Gregg

Unregistered
October 25, 2007, 10:05 AM
Who really cares? Not many people were buying Winchester model 70's before... thats why they went out of business. Why is someone going to want one now?

ZeroJunk
October 25, 2007, 01:58 PM
The pre-64 Model 70 winchesters were the best production bolt action rifles ever made.

pesta2
October 25, 2007, 02:45 PM
The pre-64 Model 70 winchesters were the best production bolt action rifles ever made.

Hummm I think the source is better Mauser. You won’t get as much gas in the eye when the primer blows.

Mike50
October 26, 2007, 06:05 AM
"There is no longer a Winchester Company"

When was there last a Winchester company? Did it end When Oliver Winchester died? Or when his heirs sold the company? Who is Winchester? The name and original factory was owned by Olin for many decades. Olin wasn't Oliver Winchester either. You could say the same thing about Remington. Since Epaulet Remington died, is there a Remington company. They have brand new owners now also.

What is a company?

Really it's just the name and whoever owns the right to use the name, and of course, who owns the patents.

DPris
October 26, 2007, 12:33 PM
Mike,
No, there's quite a difference. You're not understanding.
Remington is still a company, a corporation, with fixed assets, production facilities, employees, marketing network, distribution network, and so on. It is a corporate entity, it has a legal existance and a concrete location.
There simply is NO Winchester company any more, period.

Like the Charles Daly name. CD is not a company, has no corporate presence, no manufacturing plants or abilities, and is only a brand name used by KBI to market certain products.

FN in Herstal, Belgium, owns Browning. Browning bought the rights this year to license the Winchester name from Oilin Corporation. This was done to position Browning to import and sell Winchester-marked guns made by FN & Miroku primarily.

Again- there is NO Winchester company. It's only a brand name right now. Browning handles imports, parts, repairs, service, marketing, and so on for all Winchester-marked firearms. :)

Denis

Gewehr98
October 26, 2007, 12:53 PM
Egads. Looks like the first buyers are going to pay for the move to the new factory, in one fell swoop. :(

Mike50
October 26, 2007, 03:02 PM
Denis, I will have to semi-concede that you are at least partially technically correct. However, once the name of Winchester was owned by someone other than the company that manufactured them, it is pretty easy to argue that there wasn't a Winchester company then either.

When would you argue that there IS a Winchester company? Theoretically, if there is a factory in North Carolina that manufactures nothing but Winchesters, would you consider them a Winchester company again? If it manufactures Winchesters and also FN's would it lose its status as a Winchester company?

If you answer no, then once again, you are talking about Remington also, as well as Winchester for a number of years in the past. If you answer yes, then what about the factory that makes the currently named Winchester rifles and shotguns in Japan?

(boy I love to argue) What about Winchester ammunition (Olin) that owns the Winchester name? You could say that they are the Winchester company - that they are just allowing someone else to do the manufacturing, distributing, etc.

In today's corporate world, everything is a shade of grey.

DPris
October 26, 2007, 03:22 PM
Mike,
You're splitting hairs & ignoring what I said.
It's not a matter of philosophy in saying once Winchester himself died, or once his heirs sold it, the company ceased to actually be the Winchester company.
My point, again, is simply that there is no Winchester company.
There is a Ruger company. There is a Remington Company. There is a Colt company. There is a Smith & Wesson company.
All are solid corporate entities with structural organization, and physical properties.
Wax philosophic all you want, but there is no entity known, either legally or physically, as Winchester firearms today. There is no Winchester-owned production facility.
Winchester Ammunition is a wholly owned subsidiary of Olin Corporation, and is a totally different matter.
Browning, on the other hand, makes none of the products it markets under the Browning trademark. By your reasoning, you'd say each of the companies that do produce "Browning" products ARE actually "Browning". Faulty reasoning. Browning does, however, exist as a corporate entity, with physical assets that belong to the company, an organizational structure, and a marketing and product distribution system.
Browning (the company) exists. Winchester (the firearms company) does not.

I would argue that there WAS a Winchester firearms company when there actually was one. :rolleyes:
Denis

Mike50
October 26, 2007, 03:57 PM
Well, again, I have to semi-concede that you are at least partially technically correct. Otherwise, I would have to concede that you ARE correct, which would mean I'm wrong. How humiliating that would be, especially since it would be the first time.

I think I'm arguing the point because I have always taken issue with those who said the current Winchesters weren't really Winchesters since they weren't manufactured by the "real" Winchester company. That has gotten me "stuck" in argument mode.

I think I'll go find another shooting forum somewhere else and state that "there isn't a Winchester Company anymore". Maybe I can start an argument. On the average, I will only have been half-wrong.

DPris
October 26, 2007, 06:21 PM
I don't get into the philosophy of the argument that once a company's sold it's no longer the company it was before the sale.
Even though Ruger is no longer owned even in part by any Ruger family members, it's still the Ruger Company. Guns that were & are & will be produced by Ruger after Senior's death are still Rugers & still made by the Ruger Company.
There are certainly Winchester rifles & shotguns that are undeniably Winchester designs, with Winchester names on them. It's just that for a number of years, there has been no Winchester company, and getting back to the original point- "Winchester" is not going after any market. :)
Denis.

mudstud
October 26, 2007, 07:24 PM
Who gives a darn!! Browning itself is just a marketing company anyway. The plant in SC is owned, now, by FN, who owns Browning, who in turn now has the rights to manufacture Winchesters. If all these corporate shenanigans really bother you, buy a Tikka, owned by Sako, who in turn is owned by Beretta, (who also owns Benelli, Stoeger, and many others), and who seems to want to own every gun company. Or Remington, owned by Cerberus, who also owns Chrysler and Bushmaster, or one of those black rifle companies. Which arm of some corporate octopus that owns what, is an exercise in futility, and makes no difference anyway, except to those who like to argue about "fine points". Whether "Winchester" or another arm of a larger corporate entity owns a certain plant, is totally irrelevant to anything. I really don't give a darn whether the title to the plant in SC says Winchester on it, or Browning, or FN, or Herstal.

I'm just glad the Model 70 is back, and made in the U.S.!!

ZeroJunk
October 26, 2007, 07:38 PM
Is there any reason why a modern plant with CNC machinery can't duplicate the pre-64 action that was discontinued because of the amount of labor involved?Their are close copies on custom rifles going for kilo-dollars.Seems to me $900 for a well QC'd rifle would be a bargain.I'll buy one.(or two)

Fat White Boy
October 26, 2007, 08:09 PM
I bought a Model 70 in .270 at Walmart about 6 or 7 years ago. It is extremely accurate using stock Corelokt 130 gr ammo. I use it on wild pigs. I haven't missed yet...

rantingredneck
October 26, 2007, 08:14 PM
.......but I've always preferred the Remington 700 :o

I must not be much of a rifleman.......:eek:

Mike50
October 27, 2007, 08:35 AM
OK, I'm willing to be wrong here (again).

I don't think you want to duplicate the pre-64 Model 70. In my opinion, the last rifles were superior to the pre-64.

The last rifles have far superior gas control in the bolt and in the shroud. In other respects, they are nerely identical. They don't have the bolt guide identical to the original, but the new one is just as effective, maybe better.

The originals were lauded for there one piece forged bolt. I don't know how the new ones were made.

Has anyone noticed that the last rifles had a new bolt shroud that was flat on the right side like the originals (looks nice), yet has new gas shielding on the left side? The last rifles also had a very nice target crowned barrel and much improved recoil pad (why have the major rifle makers resisted recoil pads for so many decades).

I purchased several of the last rifles, and they have noticeably better quality of fit, finish, and checkering. I had to send one back for a small crack in the stock and they put a new stock on it.

Everyone denigrates that quality of the last ones. My experience is just the opposite. Model 70's have had poor quality control in the stock checkering department since at least the 1980's. The last ones were improved in many areas. Herstal, I believe, was trying to upgrade the rifle.

ZeroJunk
October 27, 2007, 11:01 AM
Mike,the only complaint I have had with the later ones is the safety.I had a CRF 25/06 and 300 Weatherby and even using the thumb an index finger it was loud enough to mess me up a couple of times hunting.I have a custom rifle on a 52 vintage action and it is much quieter.Lawyer deal I suppose.But ,they need to do something with the detent mechanism.It doesn't need to take 20 pounds of force to get it off safety.

Art Eatman
October 27, 2007, 11:07 AM
The average pre-'64 Model 70 with its factory iron sights was around a 1.5 to 2 MOA critter. With a scope, generally around one MOA to 1.5. And, sure, some did quite a bit better--some.

Post-'64s were easily equal insofar as group sizes, and many were definitely better.

I had a pre-64 featherweight .243 that never shot as good as my '70s version Ruger 77. I had a 1966 variety Model 70 in .264 that was a tack driver. My 1952-vintage Supergrade .220 Swift holds around 3/4 MOA, but one MOA isn't uncommon--no matter how much load tailoring I've done.

Nice guns, yeah, but, IMO, "It's a cult thing."

:), Art

Mike50
October 27, 2007, 02:03 PM
Ditto on the 3 wing safety. Some of my newer ones work good, but most of them require too much effort and tend to be noisey unless you work them carefully.

I "fixed" one years ago, by takeing it out and working the detents over with a dremel tool. Sure leaves you wide open for a lawsuit, though. I can only imagine how much the Winchester engineering department worried about that. Never tried grease. Think I'll try that someday.

mudstud
October 27, 2007, 07:45 PM
Mike, I definitely agree with you, that Herstal was trying to upgrade, update and improve the Model 70. Some of the improvements incorporated into Model 70's, are, like you mentioned, the bolt shroud with the gas flange on the left side, the square cut recessed target crown, and the cushy recoil pads. Another improvement was the use of Williams machined extractors on Classics, in place of the MIM extractors used on most models previously. Another upgrade, altho some will argue against it, was the one-piece bottom metal. It was, in the stainless models anyhow, a one-piece alloy, with a stainless floorplate. The older two-peice style was all steel. Some don't like the one-piece concept, and prefer the two-piece style. Others don't like the use of any alloy in the bottom metal. Obviously, the attempt was to lighten the Model 70, which is not known as one of the lighter actions extant. For those who can't stand alloy, or who just want to upgrade, the very classy Williams one-piece bottom metal is available, and is now made with the "in the bow" Oberndorf style floorplate release.

Grudgingly, I will have to admit that quality control may have slid some in the last few years. Some late production Featherweights have poor inletting around the floorplate. Others have poor inletting in the barrel channel, but as an old 700 shooter, I am quite accustomed to dealing with that!! :D These are about the only problems I have personally observed. Tho I have heard of other problems, but I think most problems, other than these, are really quite rare.

I don't know how accurate the old pre-64's were, they are a bit before my time. But as an old 700 shooter, I can tell you this, my Model 70 Classics, on average, out shoot my 700's. BUT, my most accurate hunting rifle, is still a 700!! :D YMMV

FirstFreedom
October 27, 2007, 09:54 PM
The pre-64 Model 70 winchesters were the best production bolt action rifles ever made.

Ahhh, the myth and legend that is the pre-64 Win 70. 'Bout 85% hype, 15% substance. They were good, espec. relative to the 64-70 models, but no better than many modern turnbolts. Someday the bubble will burst and the kids of all these old timers will be holding the bag on just ordinary rifles. Still, the old timers will be happy and content to go to their grave feeling proud of their pre-64s - more power to them. I'm glad to see them come back, too - the more in the marketplace, the better for consumers, and I like model 70s personally. I just hope people buy them - I'm surprised frankly that they are coming back as stiff as the turnbolt competition is, and the lackluster sales prior to USRAC closing (in my understanding).

ZeroJunk
October 27, 2007, 10:23 PM
FF,I thought when I posted that I would get a bigger response.I have had at least 100 bolt actions of most descriptions.All of them with the exception of some worn out 98's or 03's were good enough to hunt with.And those were easily ressurected.I like the Winchesters.But,I also like Weatherbys,Sakos,Remingtons,Rugers,Brownings,Kleingunthers,commercial Mausers.

No telling which I will have at any given time.

Mike50
October 28, 2007, 07:50 AM
I'll bet we don't see a Custom Shop again. Ever.

Selfdfenz
October 28, 2007, 08:18 AM
Someone mentioned the bolt action market is pretty thickly populated with entrants at this time and I agree. Perhaps it's also worth mentioning that in most the price and model catagories there are numerous options.

It doesn't make any difference what catagory the "new" Wincherster ends up making a reentry point if they don't deliver competitive quality and performance realitive to other units in that group. There isn't a hole to be filled.

A $900 Winchester that's less or not more accurate and not better built than a $550-$600 CZ won't fly.

Best,

S-

mudstud
October 28, 2007, 06:43 PM
Tell me, do CZ's still have that back-asswards safety? :D

Selfdfenz
October 28, 2007, 06:47 PM
You bet they do! :)
And it works taerg.
Best

S-

mudstud
October 28, 2007, 07:39 PM
:D

Danny Creasy
October 28, 2007, 11:30 PM
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/sheffieldshootr/WinchesterModel70-1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/sheffieldshootr/WinchesterModel70-2.jpg


I purchased this new when I was 19 from Tuscumbia Hardware in 1976. It is a .243 made after Winchester started to upgrade the line again but before they went to a short action for .243s, .308s, etc.. I remember another gunshop at about the same time had one like this in .222 Remington. Can you imagine the magazine block that one had to have:D?

I handloaded for it but the best group I ever fired with it was with cartridges from a box of factory Federal Premium (85 gr Sierra BTHPs).

A couple of years after I mounted the Leupold M8 fixed 6 (center pointed crosshairs) on it I removed the front and rear sights. I decided to put them back on today. I guess my tastes have changed over the years and I like the looks of a centerfire sporter like this better with the sights on it. They don't impair the view through the scope at all.

I have not hunted in years since I got more interested in competitive shooting. Sometimes I think about selling this rifle. But, you know what? Everybody needs to have a good .243 on hand;).

Silentarmy
October 29, 2007, 12:16 AM
Labor Union members can stand on the line unemployed while illegals make the guns for all I care! It disgusts me to no end to see these jokers thinking they are worth all that and that no one else can do their jobs! We shall indeed see huh? FN has owned Winchester and browning for yrs! I don't believe for a second that guns made in connecticut are the slightest bit better than guns made anywhere else in this country or most others. The "My Daddy hates........." is the only reason most can give for their gun bigotry!

JohnKSa
October 29, 2007, 12:21 AM
Epaulet RemingtonArgh...

bobn
October 29, 2007, 09:15 PM
silent army? question for you,,,did you happen to notice that the rumored price of the sc m70 is going up 300 dollars from the conn union built price? now where do you think thats comming from? hm, duh? i bet corporate greed far outstrips labor costs....bobn

Wildalaska
October 29, 2007, 10:34 PM
Or the price of raw materials.

WildsteelandwoodAlaska tm

Mike50
October 30, 2007, 08:43 PM
ShefieldShooter,

That is an extremely nice Model 70. If you get rid of it, you will regret it later.

Mike

Danny Creasy
October 30, 2007, 11:22 PM
Good advice Mike.

wpbarrett
November 4, 2007, 07:54 AM
sheff, I have a rifle made in 1978 just like the one you showed. great looking rifle, my dad gave it to me just last year he said it was time to rest he just turned 81. how could any price be put on a gun like that. my 2 year old will make that choice. thanks for showing.

Bill