Tell me how bad I suck...

[MTMilitiaman]

First off, I should note, that I am a rifleman. I prefer rifles. I am better and more confident with them. With my M1A, I will boastfully proclaim that I am "better than average." Handguns are curious little instruments of limited utility for situations you know you shouldn't be in, shotguns are fun but largely over rated in the roles they can be practically assigned to, but rifles--rifles are where it is at. With that disclaimer out of the way, I will admit that I suck with handguns. Yep, you're pretty much safe even downrange if that's all I got.

At 25 yards, eh, I'd rather not discuss 25 yards. It will be a while before I feel confident moving the target out to that range.

At 10 yards, I do okay. My double taps are strung vertically from the navel to the junction of the collar bone, with most of them in two separate ~3 inch groups bracketing the 10-ring. If I slow down and aim, I don't to too bad, I guess.

The afternoon started with me putting ten rounds downrange at 25 yards with my Glock 20 and with my bro's SA MilSpec. The Glock isn't painful or unpleasant to shoot, but those 180 gr Double Tap rounds certainly let you know you just touched something off, and the pistol is undeniably snappy. These characteristics personally don't lend themselves to accurate shooting, and the results showed this. But within half a mag through the SA, I noticed something happening. I became more relaxed. The 1911 is heavier and the .45 itself is not nearly as snappy in its recoil characteristics as the full power 10mms. After a mag through the Glock 20, it seemed like I could watch the front sight of the Springfield almost all the way through its path. The pistol just rolled back in the hand, and seemed all-together more domestic, almost tame, by comparison. My groups shrank, and by the time I got through the first couple magazines, I had reaffirmed my desire to own a 1911. I didn't have much ammo for the 10mm handy, but was able to put a little more than 100 rounds through the .45. There was no malfunctions from either pistol.

Heres the last 25 round group I fired at 10 yards from the Springfield:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/SAMilspecTarget.jpg

Now before I get flamed, let me make it clear than I am not bashing Glocks or the 10mm Auto here. I will readily admit that my skill with a handgun is limited and that this is largely responsible for the limitations I see in the Glock 20 right now. I also want to make it clear than I really enjoy my Glock, I don't see myself parting with it, ever, and I admire the Glock for its simple functionality, love the 10mm, and especially love the Glock 20 for the level of simple, reliable firepower it puts in a usable package. But it shares the 10mm's tendency to require dedication to master. Again, I've seen a 16 year old girl do fine with it. But only hits count, and I found myself hitting more with the 1911. I enjoyed the experience more, I like the recoil characteristics more, and those .45 caliber holes look good on paper. I think I can find room in my collection for a 1911 to exist beside the Glock, in perfect harmony.

Two quick questions before I invite you guys to let me know how bad I suck, hopefully with some pointers to accompany the criticism.

What causes off-center primer hits in a 1911? And what would cause me to shoot about two-inches right at 10 yards with the Glock, and two-inches left at 10 yards with the 1911? Keep in mind I shoot left-handed.

[SCREAMIII2006]

Are you one of those guys at the range with 100 pounds of sandbags that takes 20 minutes to set up?
I know I am.:o
It took me a while to get used to shooting a handgun.
With a rifle your all hunkered down sitting or prone absorbing the recoil into your bags or shooting rest.
A pistol is another story,anticipating recoil was my biggest problem.

I agree with you on that the recoil on the 45 is quite manageable,even enjoyable.

[HappyGunner]

I also am much better off shooting my 16" AR15 but for everyday carry the law here don't allow it.:o
I myself would not really count on needing to shoot at 25 yards or even 10 yards for defending my life. Most things happen at around 5 yards or closer.

So if you can do as well as in the picture IMHO your doing great.:)

[rellascout]

Not bad shooting. I would suggest a full sized 9mm next time out. Very controllable and you can learn to track your front sight.

I like to start people off with 9mm or 22LR. Shooting the larger calibers early can cause people to develop bad habits which are harder to break later but that is just my opinion.

Once you can control a full sized 9mm without loosing sight of the front sight then its time to move up.

[MTMilitiaman]

Are you one of those guys at the range with 100 pounds of sandbags that takes 20 minutes to set up?

No. In fact, I find I use a rest at all less and less these days. I've hardly ever use a rest for handguns. Sometimes I do for rifles, but mostly I practice offhand and field positions with a shooting sling on my rifles.

I like to start people off with 9mm or 22LR. Shooting the larger calibers early can cause people to develop bad habits which are harder to break later but that is just my opinion.

I agree. We have a Ruger Mk II that I practice with. That and those YouTube videos with Todd Jarrett have helped immensely. I am seeing improvement, but it is still discouraging to see me printing all over paper at 25 yards when others are claiming sub-3 inch groups at that range.

[HappyGunner]

Some people might shoot 3" groups at 25 yards off hand standing but I have not seen it happen.:rolleyes: Now at 15 yards I have but just a few times in many years at the range and by expert hand gunners.:)

[MTMilitiaman]

Maybe offhand is optimistic, but I've seen it done from a bench at that range, and it was my understanding that 3 inches at 25 yards from a rest was almost a universal standard. At any rate, I am a long ways away from that. Right now, I'd be happy if I could reliably keep them in a group twice that big.

[quickcanary]

No G20 target? :p

I think you're doing fairly well, actually. Becoming proficient with a pistol is obviously different than doing the same with a rifle, so it could be that you are being too hard on yourself since you're accurate with rifles. I wouldn't worry about it too much and would just practice, practice, practice.

Don't worry about doing one ragged hole at 25 yds...that's nice for bragging rights but as was pointed out, not really needed if one is primarily interested in self defense. I think the main thing is to be reasonably accurate and be quick & confident when operating the weapon. I firmly believe that muscle memory and lack of hesitation are more important than tackdriving accuracy in a SD situation. In a range scenario, that might not be true. In a perfect world, we'd have both but I think you're well on your way to where you want/need to be!

[varoadking]

Some people might shoot 3" groups at 25 yards off hand standing but I have not seen it happen. Now at 15 yards I have but just a few times in many years at the range and by expert hand gunners.

I don't consider myself an expert by any means, but if I couldn't shoot 3" groups at 15 yards consistently...I'd quit shooting...

[HappyGunner]

I was meaning a real handgun like a .45acp not a .22.;)

[JohnKSa]

Some people might shoot 3" groups at 25 yards off hand standing but I have not seen it happen. Now at 15 yards I have but just a few times in many years at the range and by expert hand gunners.3" at 25 yards offhand is not outside the realm of possible. I won't claim that every 25 yard group I shoot is 3", but I can do it at least once a range trip if I have a gun that can do it and ammo that the gun likes. On occasion (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238783) I can do better.

I'm talking about slow-fire groups. Not double-taps or anything like that. Resting in between each shot, taking as much time as it takes to get it right. Not in competition and not under any kind of pressure.

Here's a range report and review (http://www.therallypoint.org/forum/index.php?topic=1298.0) I did with some group sizes mentioned. It took me maybe 2 or 3 hours to shoot the nine or ten 25 yard groups reported. I also had maybe another 4 or 5 groups that I botched (called fliers) during that range trip.

If you want to see some REALLY impressive groups check out some of Stephen Camp's posts here and on THR.

[HappyGunner]

http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u199/photobug4741/?action=view&current=ACOG052207b.jpg

[Harris304]

"tell me how bad i suck" Actually you don't suck at all. I think your a good shot with that 45 and i would not want to be down range from you.

[Manedwolf]

If you like the 1911, try the SIG P220 too. :)

[azredhawk44]

That's good shooting.

As far as the +/- 2" issue, that could be variations in the sights between the two guns. Considering how consistent your group was with the 1911, I wouldn't worry too much about any mistakes you're making with grip, heeling, trigger slapping or the like. They are minimal, if there at all.

[zukiphile]

I will admit that I suck with handguns.

I don't think that matters if you are shooting for fun.

The best guy can get better. That's the ever present challenge. That's why it will retain your interest.

JohnK and a newly minted shooter will be doing the same thing generally when visiting the range. John will focus on his technique to get his 25m group from 3 inches to 2.5; the new shooter will apply those techniques to get from 8 inches at 10m down to 6 inches. (The latter describes my first time out.)

I'm worse than average with a rifle, but I imagine you would tell me the same thing about rifle practice.

[JohnKSa]

JohnK and a newly minted shooter will be doing the same thing generally when visiting the range.Well, I try to shoot a couple of good groups per range trip, but I spend a good bit of time in a normal range trip (as opposed to when I'm trying out/reviewing a new gun) just having fun.

Trying for the best groups I can get is hard work, so I don't usually spend a lot of time at it. :D

Besides, if you talk to the self-defense trainers, they'll tell you that if you're shooting groups smaller than a paper plate you're shooting too slow and you need to speed up!

[FirstFreedom]

Holy crap! Note to self: Don't insult JohnKSa until you're beyond 50 yards if he has a handgun on him, and even then keep on running! :eek:

MT, I'll tell you that you suck if it will make you feel better, but that's pretty good shooting there really - looks like both gun & user are tuned well enough to TCB.

[MTMilitiaman]

Hmm, well, I've always been my own hardest critic.

Truth be told though, that is about the best I've ever done with a handgun. And it gets exponentially worse as the range opens up.

Guess I'll just have to keep practicing ;)

[abarth]

Dude thats not bad, I seen worst than that at the range all the time, and a few of them were cops:eek:. Just practice more and you will see improvement. To answer your original questions, there are many reasons for a 1911 firing pin to hit off center, the most common one is either the barrel was fitted too high or too low relative to the lugs inside the slide. If it is too high and the gun operated fine thats ok. Too low may affect the longevity of the barrel. Regarding shooting the Glock to the right and 1911 to the left, have you shoot both guns on bench rest to see if it is the guns or you?

[zukiphile]

Besides, if you talk to the self-defense trainers, they'll tell you that if you're shooting groups smaller than a paper plate you're shooting too slow and you need to speed up!


I suffer at the other end of the spectrum. The culture at my armoury is dominated by bullseye shooters. These guys deride any pace that exceeds five rounds a minute. (Yet when I shoot as slowly as they do, my accuracy deteriorates.)

Somewhere between IPSC and bullseye is a pace I can enjoy.

[mr kablammo]

Relaxation is the key. You should be surprised, but not scared nor startled when the gun fires. Don't try to squeeze the bullet out of the gun nor push it down to counter recoil. Get a neutral grip with the support hand doing the heavy work and the firing hand/finger doing the subtle work. Although it is not about guns, a good book on the mental process is 'Zen and the Art of Archery'. Get nice slow relaxed respiration. Check out the forum for Brian Enos also.

[GW45NUT]

You are not a bad shot at all. Just keep practicing and having fun.;)

[JohnKSa]

(Yet when I shoot as slowly as they do, my accuracy deteriorates.)I think a good bit of shooting is not letting your head mess things up. One of the best groups I've ever shot was a 10 round group at 25 yards using a Ruger MkII Govt. I had 10 rounds left in the box at the end of the range trip so I ran the target all the way out to the back and shot a pretty fast group using only one hand. Not really ripping them off, but not taking my time either. Just shooting when the sights came back on target. When I brought the target back to the line, I nearly fell over--it was easily under 2".

Ever since then I've realized that aligning the sights and pulling the trigger is EASY, the hard part is keeping your brain from getting over-involved and ruining everything...

Sometimes I whisper "front sight-front sight-front sight-front sight" to myself while I'm squeezing the trigger to give my brain something to do besides spoil the shot. ;)

[quickcanary]

Ever since then I've realized that aligning the sights and pulling the trigger is EASY, the hard part is keeping your brain from getting over-involved and ruining everything...

Well said. There is a difference between concentration and over-analyzing! I would think the latter is more of a problem for newer shooters that are trying to obtain tack-driving accuracy; it is definitely possible to think TOO much about the upcoming shot and when that happens, accuracy can definitely take a hit even though you're trying to be as accurate as possible. With more range time and experience, one can achieve concentration, relaxation and confidence which (especially the first two) are conducive to good groups.

[Perldog007]

Not bad shooting. I would suggest a full sized 9mm next time out. Very controllable and you can learn to track your front sight.

I like to start people off with 9mm or 22LR. Shooting the larger calibers early can cause people to develop bad habits which are harder to break later but that is just my opinion.

Once you can control a full sized 9mm without loosing sight of the front sight then its time to move up.

What he said. My first gun was a model 29. If my second one had not been the MkII .22 I would still be trying to hit beer cans 15 feet away with limited success.

That is nice work with the .45. From the information you gave on the right - left issue, This gun nut would say pay close attention to how your trigger finger engages with the trigger. If possible get some snap caps and do a little dry firing and see if the pull is moving the muzzle. 2" at 10 yards would not take much of a motion.

The 1911 trigger is presumably a shorter reach than the model 20. If the lower part of your trigger finger is engaging on the 1911 could it be pulling the gun slightly into your hand? Could the opposite be true with the 20? Just my first guess.

I would also encourage you to seek out a coach. Looks like you have a solid base of skill established. I found an old timer who was used to teaching beginners and coached me for gratis so he could practice unteaching old dogs bad tricks. Worked out for both of us.

[Surefire_U2]

I have the opposite problem. I'm primarily a pistol shooter, and find shooting pistols easier than rifles. I am more confident with pistols. I can handle heavy recoil in a pistol (or revolver) with no issues, but heavy recoil in a rifle hurts my shoulder.

With a scope and bench rest, I can get excellent groups with a rifle, but free-standing with open sights my shots are all over the place with a rifle.

I can get excellent groups with a pistol even free-standing.

My weakest link is shotguns--I'm very ineffective at taking the 12 gauge buckshot recoil without damaging my shoulder.