7.62x39 "armor piercing" ?????

[oldcars]

I just ended up with about 4600 rounds of 7.62x39 ammo in a trade with a good friend of mine. 2200 rounds are in tins and he says they are "armor piercing" rounds which he paid alot of money for during the ban. They are packed in "sardene" tins of 550 in wooden crates. The ammo itself is all copper colored (shell and bullet) and packed on stripper clips. The writing on the box apears to be chinese. I dont realy have a use for "armor piercing" rounds in my AK, so I was wondering what are they worth? are they anything special or should I just shoot them up as regular ammo?

[RedneckFur]

I had crate of those a few years back. Didnt seem all that special to me. They would do one heck of a job on a tree though.
My guess is that its either normal FMJ, or perhaps steel core ammo. I'm not familiar much with the reasons behind putting a steel core in ammo, but i'm willing to bet it had to do more with the price of metals than because the steel penetrated better.

[banditt007]

i'm not for sure, but the AP thing is prob a crock of shat. i'm guessing they are just standard FMJ bullets. or steel core FMJ bullets. steel core not really doing much aside from lessening the amount of lead used per bullet. If you could post up pics and what the base where the primer is looks like/whats on it, should help someone who knows this ammo on what exactly you are looking at.

there IS a website somehwere that shows all sorts of 7.62x39 ammo explaining where it was made, its specs, pics of it ect. good webpage i guess you'd just have to search for it.

[Gewehr98]

Because Olympic Arms started to market an AR-15 pistol chambered for 7.62x39. Those who already had the stuff were legal to keep it. Since then, all imported 7.62x39 ammo is lead core, with steel or copper jackets - not AP steel core.

[USMCG_HMX1]

It's just surplus ammo and I would shoot it just like I would anything else, although being careful doing it.

NATO surplus is technically "AP" as well due to the core of the bullet being made that way, so it's safe to assume what you have is constructed in a similar fashion.

Make sure you've got a good backstop or burm you're shooting into.





Kris

[Csspecs]

I almost started a forest fire with steel core ammo, the steel makes sparks if it hits rocks or gravel.

I would sell it at the next gun show and buy new lead core stuff with the money.

[oldcars]

Now I am tempted to pull a bullet and cut it open!!! Thanks for all the info guys, I am not into the stuff much so I can shoot it up and not feel to bad, but if its worth more than regular lead core I would sell it & buy something else. (like lead core or some more 223!!!)

[Hedley]

Sounds like Norinco steel core. It's worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay.

[oldcars]

By the headstamp it was made in factory#31 in 1992

[Csspecs]

Just so you know, every gunshow I have ever been to the old steel core 7.62x39 ammo was at least double the price of new lead core most of the time lead core x39 was about 3.00 a box and the steel would run between $6-10 a box (depending on if it was sealed or not).

Call around to a few gunshops that are into selling AKs and the like, and find out what they will give you for it (you may get more for a trade than cash).

[Rimrod]

Gewehr98 is right on this one, the ATF has banned the steel core ammo. Not only because of Olympic Arms but also because there was a barrel made for the T/C Contender in 7.62X39 which made it a "handgun" round. Thanks to idiots like Howard Metzenbaum, AP ammo for handguns are a no-no.

What you do with it is up to you, but if you find the right buyer it will be worth more than the non-AP stuff.

[Csspecs]

Just so you know steel core is not AP ammo, the steel core was a cost saving measure (steel is cheaper than lead).

It may improve the penetrating ability's of the round but there is nothing that I could find that said it actually does anything more than normal lead core.

That said it is still worth more because you can't buy new.

[Gewehr98]

BATF wasn't concerned in the least bit about the Thompson-Contender single-shot barrels in 7.62x39, nor the Magnum Research Lone Eagle single-shot handguns. Their importation ban was a specific response to Olympic Arms' producing an ad in the December 1993 Shotgun News, touting their OA-93 autoloading pistol in that chambering. A synopsis here:

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIL3.html

And here:

http://www.thegunzone.com/762x39.html

Of note in the latter article is the 1994 definition of armor-piercing ammo. ;)

[joshua]

I have a wooden box of that stuff. It cost more due to the reason mentioned. Save it for the next Y2K :D We sold a large drop shipment of that stuff when we use to run a gun shop and about a dozen NHM-90. That was right after the Rodney King riots in southern California. The dangers of starting a fire with those steel core rounds is real. I have personally seen dried grass catch on fire on an outdoor berm. The person using the lane was firing an SKS with Chicom steel core 7.62x39. Sell it or shoot it, nothing really special about it except someone out there will pay good money for it just because it is marked AP. josh

[FirstFreedom]

That's just steel-core stuff which is very penetrative - don't try to use it an an indoor range or anything with just a steel backstop - must use an earth burm - not useful for much unless the fecal matter were to collide with the rotating oscillatar, and bad guys are running around with body armor.

[Rimrod]

Gewehr98, I read about it in a gun magazine which I learned not to trust anyway, so I will concede on the T/C. The fact still is the same though that the BATF jumped on it as soon as it was chambered in a "handgun".

I've never seen any of the ammo marketed as AP but the fact that it had a steel core was enough for it being classifed as such by the BATF geniuses.

[Hedley]

Aren't they still importing steel core 5.45 ammo that could theoretically be used in AK74 pistols?

[Mike U.]

I'd hang onto it.
As time goes by, it'll only be more desirable if the ban is not lifted.
At some point, it might be fairly lucrative trade fodder.

[Gewehr98]

Aren't they still importing steel core 5.45 ammo that could theoretically be used in AK74 pistols?

The ATF has deemed steel core 5.45x39 and green-tipped steel penetrator 5.56mm NATO ammo as legal to import, no problem (for now). They're specifically exempted, as is black-tipped AP .30-06. Go figure - but it appears ATF was really concerned about the 7.62x39 steel core AP ammo in conjunction with the OA-93 AR pistol. Of course, the B-West AK pistol was already on their radar.

Single-shot Contender/Encore pistols and the like didn't bother them too much.

Nor did steel-jacketed ammo get banned, which some here confuse for the real AP steel-core. There is a difference in both construction and intended application, just to be fair.


WHAT IS AP AMMO, BY FEDERAL LAW?

The definition of AP ammo is at 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17):
"(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

[Secretary means Secretary of the Treasury, in reality determinations
are delegated to the Technology Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
and Firearms (ATF)]

Note the following things from the definition:

1) The definition was changed as part of the 1994 Crime Bill (9/14/94),
primarily by the addition of "full jacketed" bullets intended to be used
in a handgun whose jacket is more than 25% of their weight. The previous
language is at the end of this article, for comparison purposes.

2) AP ammo is the bullets ONLY, not the loaded ammo, although ATF has
identified some AP ammo by the loaded ammo, not projectiles, for the
information of FFL dealers, who are not supposed to "willfully"
transfer AP ammo.
From this it follows that loading the bullets identified above into
completed rounds does not constitute "making" AP ammo; making the
bullets themselves does.

3) USE - The bullet must be able to be used in a handgun. Rather than
construing this to mean regular handgun calibers, ATF construes this to
mean any caliber for which a handgun has been made, including handguns
in rifle calibers, like .308 Winchester, and 7.62x39, for purposes of
bullets covered by (B)(i). Thus bullets suitable for these calibers,
as well as other rifle calibers for which handguns have been made (at
least commercially made) which are constructed as described below would
or should be AP ammo.
However bullets that fall into the AP definition under (B)(ii), because
their jackets comprise more than 25% of their weight (solid copper bullets?)
must be intended for use in a handgun, not just be able to be used in a
handgun.

4) CONSTRUCTION - The bullet must either have a core made ENTIRELY out
of one or more of the listed metals, or be a full jacketed type bullet
with a jacket comprising more that 25% of its weight. Thus SS109/M855
.223 (5.56mm) bullets would not be covered, because their core is only partly
steel, and partly lead. Lead is not a listed metal, and bullets with
cores made partly out of lead are OK. ATF has expressly ruled that
SS109/M855 bullets are not covered.

5) Hardness of the bullet is irrelevant.

6) Ability to actually penetrate any kind of soft body armor is irrelevant.

ATF has listed the following rounds as AP ammo:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet.
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

[SteelCore]

I agree that it's probably ordinary steel core ammo, and pulling a bullet or putting a magnet to the bullet will reveal that. If you don't have a magnet handy and you pull the bullet, you shouldn't need to dremel the bullet open -- the steel will be exposed at the bullet's base (at least it was when I pulled one).

I have a bunch of steel core 7.62x39 myself (various dates and countries), but I'm just kind of sitting on it. I don't want to shoot something that I might never be able to buy again. (It irks me more than a little bit that AP ammo is restricted at all. That's plainly contrary to the intent of the Second Amendment.)

As for the penetration of 7.62x39 steel core, I'm pretty sure those who said it wasn't designed to be armor-piercing are right -- I believe it was simply cheaper than using lead, like RedneckFur said. However, it's listed as a Class IV threat on body armor charts, as opposed to Class III for (presumably) lead core 7.62x39:

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php

One other point: It's probably corrosive ammo, so you'll want to clean your rifle accordingly if you do decide to shoot it.

[Gewehr98]

A magnet will also attract a steel-jacketed bullet. Steel-jacketed bullets and their assembled ammo are not part of the ban. They'll look like normal rounds, because they have a copper wash over the steel jacket material. So keep the Dremel or mill file nearby if you really want to know after the magnet "alerts" on a suspect round. ;)

Steel core (ie, internal steel penetrator rod) is AP. By comparison, steel jacket w/ lead core is not, and is simply a cost-saving manufacturing expedient. Let's not confuse the two.

[SteelCore]

Those jackets sometimes have steel in them? I didn't realize that -- thanks for pointing it out.

[john in jax]

I'm with Hedly, that "all copper wash/color" sounds like the Norinco mfg I was selling back the mid-late 80's. It's been a LONG time but IIRC Norinco had a bad reputation for accuracy, because they were using whatever cheap scrap they could lay their hands on for the cores leading to inconsistant bullet weight, etc.... Shoot it and enjoy it, just don't expect it to group consistantly.

[TPAW]

Had some AP a while back. To my surprize, it went through an oak tree trunk that was about 18 inches thick! About 8 to 10 rounds acutally split an engine block!.........:eek:

[Mike U.]

So, what's the consensus of the group?

Should he keep it or sell/trade it off?

[USMCG_HMX1]

Keep it ... it's a no-brainer.




Kris

[Csspecs]

I'd sell it or trade it, if you can double your ammo or better. Your ammo is almost 13 years old, you could have new ammo and more of it!

[Mike U.]

Or he could roll the dice and make much more further down the line. As much as I'd like to see every RKBA related ban go to the ninth hell where it belongs, I don't see the armor piercing bullet ban going anywhere for quite a while.

Also, 13 years old is nada when it comes to ammo. I'm shooting 1950's ammo out of my Mosin right now and it still has mucho OOMPH!!

Or, were you looking into possibly buying his, Csspecs?
If so, sooorry. :o :o :p :D

[Gewehr98]

So 13 year-old 7.62x39 ammo? No big deal whatsoever. ;)

[Mannlicher]

I say keep it for that possible rainy day. I have several sealed tins of the Norinco copper washed ammo. Head stamp is 31/93. I find it to be as accurate as any other 7.62 X 39 in my two SKS rifles, and my SA93 AK.
I never sell anything that you probably can't ever get again.

[Csspecs]

Well he asked if he should sell it or shoot it.

Now if he was going to keep it tucked away that would be another story.

[oldcars]

I don't like what I have heard about starting fires with sparks, I live in a very dry part of Oregon, and anything like that I try to avoid. I realy don't shoot the AK that much and I feel that the 3000 rounds of lead core stuff I have should keep me having fun for quite awhile. I have seen the prices that this stuff goes for $.50-1.00 a round!!!! thats insane!!!! could I get $200 per 550 rounds? thats under .37cents a round. I know if I sell it I might never get any more, but is it realy that special? I only have one gun that shoots 7.62x39, and I have 5 that shoot .223/5.56 so mabe I should trade for some of that?

[Csspecs]

Thats what I would do, its worth more money than it really is worth for what it is.

And you can buy green tip ammo in 5.56

[45reloader]

Do you have a loose round to cut open and see if it's the old Norinco steel core ammo.


To be honest.The world has more steel cored ammo then lead.Just here in the U.S. we can't have it.

I still have about 120 rounds of the steel core ammo for my AK's.
Rain day ammo for when the SHTF.

[oldcars]

I just have the tins.

[Keith Eckensviller]

The 7.62 x 39 was never intended to take on anything heavyer that a person. So I will agree that the AP designation is bogus. I will go with the FMJ and maybe the stee core or partial steel core (Top part steel and bottom lead). I have some cheap Norinco stuff and I know it's not AP but it put a realy nice clean hole in 1/4 ince plate steel at 75 yards. I don't think it's worth much so just enjoy shooting it at pop cans or what ever your favorite target is.:)