Sentry fire safe, why can't it be a gun safe? [Archive]

a1abdj

April 26, 2007, 11:39 AM

There are a few reasons you should not use a Sentry fire safe (and other document safes) for storing weapons.

First and foremost, gun safes and document safes have little in common. The insulation used to protect against fire is different. Document safes use a moisture rich insulation designed to bake off in a fire. This generates steam inside of the safe, which keeps the contents protected. This same moisture rich insulation causes a high humidity level within the safe, and will rust firearms. Sentry specifically mentions this in their owners manual.

Most gun safes use gypsum board for insulation. This has a much lower moisture content which protects the guns, but is not nearly as effective against a fire. The Sentry is a UL rated fire safe. There is currently no gun safe on the market which passes the UL test for fire. Most independant testing is not worth the paper it is written on. It is surely not acceptable to insurance companies that require specific ratings.

The second major reason is that the Sentry safes do not meet legal standards for safe gun storage. This is especially true in California with the CA DOJ storage requirements.

There are certain types of safes that are smaller than typical gun safes, and suitable for pistol storage. These include steel plate safes (no insulation), small gun type safes (gypsum board insulation), or composite safes (burglary and fire protection). Most of the time, these types of safes will not be available through your local sporting goods store or big box retailer. You'll have to speak with somebody in the safe business.

waterhouse

April 26, 2007, 05:58 PM

a1abdj,

I understand about how if there is a fire the moisture rich environment of a document safe will be bad for my gun.

If there is no fire, will a document safe be a fine place to lock up a gun if nothing else is available? Or will it be more moist in a document safe all the time, not only in times of fire? Basically can a document safe be used safely as a non fire lock box for guns, or will they rust in there?

a1abdj

April 26, 2007, 06:40 PM

From what I've seen with document safes, the cheaper they are, the more humid they are inside. The higher end fire safes tend to use better designed insulations.

If you'll notice on the Sentry document safes, the interiors are made of plastic. This isn't strictly a cost issue. The older Sentry safes with steel interiors often rusted. Another forum member on another gun forum put his cigar hygrometer in a Sentry safe over night. The hygrometer reported 80% humidity levels (firearms should be stored in the 30% to 40% range).

These types of insulations tend to keep the interior of the safe moist at all times. If you do not open the safe on a regular basis to let the safe air out, you will often notice a musty smell, especially on paperwork.

If you must store moisture sensitive items inside of a document safe (firearms, coins, stamps, etc.), then you should store them in a microwave safe tupperware style container.

This does not apply to all Sentry products. Sentry offers a wide variety of safes which could be used to store firearms. This advice is solely for the UL rated document safes that they sell. I should also add that the locks on these cheaper document safes are nothing more than privacy locks. You will get very little burglary protection from this type of safe.

newerguy

April 26, 2007, 07:51 PM

Many document fire safes, including my Sentry, can be pried open with a screwdriver. You can't pry open my gun safe, anything that will fit in the door gap will bend. My document safe cannot be bolted to the floor, my gun safe is. I can pick the lock on my document safe is a couple seconds (used to do locksmithing when I was a kid). I couldn't pick the key lock on my gun safe (it's an electronic lock with a backup key).

There are lots of documents I want safe from fire, like my insurance policies, my marriage license, my will, etc. The stuff I want safe from theft is is the gun safe (with the rattlesnake :D ).

One of the most street smart guys I ever met (he might have been the toughest old coot I ever knew) used to say, "locks are for honest people".

BobK

April 26, 2007, 08:05 PM

Listen to a1abdj. I have lost count of the Sentry fire safes AND Sentry gun safes I have had to open because they failed internally. Sorry to offend anyone, but they are JUNK! With Sentry you truly get what you pay for. Here at the local gun show I have seen Liberty gunsafes for under $700.00.

It is every gun owners responsibilty to secure and keep safe their firearms. Put off buying that next gun and get a good quality safe that can be bolted down and is made in the US.

Playboypenguin

April 26, 2007, 08:32 PM

I have them side by side in the utility room. They are more than enough to deter the common thief and did not cost an arm and a leg. I have them lag bolted to both the concrete floor and the foundation wall.

On this very board we did alot of checking into safe qualities awhile back and after talking to firemen, calling manufacturers, and even speaking to a rep at Underwriter Labs I was unable to find enough of a difference to make it worth all the extra money.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Misc/safes.jpg

Johnc

April 27, 2007, 03:47 PM

a1abdj is 100% correct. I made the mistake of using a document safe for some hand guns. I now have surface rust on some nice guns. They retain moisture. Like a dope, I never asked why you should not use them for guns. In the instructions they tell you "not for use with guns".

If you must use one temporarily, I would recommend using large amounts of desiccant and recharging/replacing them often.

You are a wiser man than I for just asking!

Playboypenguin

April 27, 2007, 03:52 PM

a1abdj is 100% correct. I made the mistake of using a document safe for some hand guns. I now have surface rust on some nice guns. They retain moisture. Like a dope, I never asked why you should not use them for guns. In the instructions they tell you "not for use with guns".
I think the original poster needs to clarify which model of Sentry safe of which he is speaking. Many of the Sentry safes list firearms and their intended usage.

BobK

April 27, 2007, 08:37 PM

Playboy, the model you have is prone to failure. I have opened several. There is a BIG difference. And what the heck do firemen know about gunsafes? Not trying to give you a hard time. People never listen and learn the hard way. And of course foks get pissed at me when I tell them how much it's going to cost to get the safe open. It ain't worth the headache. Buy American made safes.

skeeter1

April 27, 2007, 09:44 PM

I've got a Sentry document safe in the basement primarily for storing papers. I put two 40gram dessicant canisters in it and stored one handgun inside for a year with no problem. Now I have a full-size gunsafe with a pair of Remington 365 mini-dehumidifiers. Both seem to work well, but I like the Remington dehumifiers much better because you cand just plug them into an outlet to recharge rather than having heat up the oven.

NJ-Dirtrdr

April 27, 2007, 10:13 PM

I bought the fireproof/floodproof Sentry safe from Walmart that was previously mentioned. After a quick inspection, I quickly threw away any hopes that it was actually floodproof. Once I was over that, I decided to drill some holes in it to bolt it to the floor.

Document safes use a moisture rich insulation designed to bake off in a fire. This generates steam inside of the safe, which keeps the contents protected
When I drilled through the safe, there was this very moist material that clogged up my drill bits...almost like clay. Now it makes sense as to why all this stuff is sandwiched between the steel layers (which were alarmingly thin BTW).

After my first hand disection, I wouldn't dare store anything in there that would corrode. Just a thought.

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 02:10 AM

And what the heck do firemen know about gunsafes?
They know first hand the survival rate of so called "fire safes". All the research I did was unable to find anyone that claimed a safe would actually survive a fire to the degree they are rated. Firemen and a friend that is an arson/fire inspector says none will survive a direct fire for anywhere near what they are rated.

A call to UL (which rates the safes) revealed that they do not actually test the safes. The just certify the information given to them by the manufacturer.

As for failures, thousands of openings so far and no issues. I have one Sentry safe I have had for many years and no issues. If they ever did fail I would just cut them open and not be out much money.

ShootemDown

April 28, 2007, 03:38 AM

I have a cheap all metal sentry safe, it is not fireproof.

it comes with key and combo lock. it fits 6 handguns easy. got two shelves.

99 dollars.

http://www.staples.com/sbd/img/cat/std/s0146339_std.jpg

a1abdj

April 28, 2007, 10:11 AM

They know first hand the survival rate of so called "fire safes". All the research I did was unable to find anyone that claimed a safe would actually survive a fire to the degree they are rated. Firemen and a friend that is an arson/fire inspector says none will survive a direct fire for anywhere near what they are rated.

I have many photos taken by fellow safe techs which show burned safes. We are often called out immediately after a fire to open and recover the contents of safes which often have the dials and handles melted off.

Safes rated by UL and other recognized agencies do often protect their contents. The items inside may not survived in pristine condition in all cases, but they do typically survive.

Gun safes that have been tested by unrecognized agencies often do no protect their contents. In many cases, it's a complete loss.

A call to UL (which rates the safes) revealed that they do not actually test the safes. The just certify the information given to them by the manufacturer.

I don't think the person you spoke with at UL knows what they are talking about.

All fire rated safes must undergo a furnace test, a drop test, and an explosion (from steam) test. After the initial testing is done, the safe manufacturer must allow random inspections of their facilities by UL representatives to insure all of the safes being produced are identical to the safe submitted for testing.

As for failures, thousands of openings so far and no issues. I have one Sentry safe I have had for many years and no issues. If they ever did fail I would just cut them open and not be out much money.

Inexpensive products are built with inexpensive parts. In my experience, safes like Sentry, are much more prone to failure. I have also seen 20 year old Sentry products still in use.

I often charge more to deliver these types of safes than the safe cost. I also often charge more to open them than the safe cost. Sometimes cheap products don't end up being the bargain people thought they would be.

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 10:27 AM

All fire rated safes must undergo a furnace test, a drop test, and an explosion (from steam) test. After the initial testing is done, the safe manufacturer must allow random inspections of their facilities by UL representatives to insure all of the safes being produced are identical to the safe submitted for testing.
You would think that but it is not the case. UL is not legally required to actually perform the tests or validate the testing of any item that would not pose a threat to human life or pose a safety hazard. Therefore they often accept money for endorsing things such as safes without testing as long as the manufacterer provides a warranty for the product.

I spoke to several people at UL and they even referred me to their legal division which pointed me to the laws which stated pretty much what I just said.
Inexpensive products are built with inexpensive parts. In my experience, safes like Sentry, are much more prone to failure. I have also seen 20 year old Sentry products still in use
You mean like all those inexpensive cars like Honda and Toyota that came from overseas in the 80's? Or those inexpensive eectronics like Sony, Toshiba, and others that came from overseas in the 80's also? Sometimes they are just cheaper because where they are made and the labor that makes them.

a1abdj

April 28, 2007, 11:39 AM

UL72, Tests for Fire Resistance of Record Protection Equipment, provides for testing for Fire Endurance (section 5) and Fire and Impact (section 6).

Unless you can show me something, in writing from UL, I would have to say that your information is incorrect. I deal with safe manufacturers on a daily basis. I'm pretty sure they aren't lying when they speak of sending their safes for testing, or having inspectors at their facilities.

I can't find them at the moment, but I actually have some photos of vault doors being tested at UL.

As far as the inexpensive.....

I don't mean anything similar to the cars. I mean they use the cheapest components available in order to bring the price down.

Let's take electronic locks for instance. Many chinese electronic locks are simply a circuit board and solenoid. No bounce protection, no manipulation protection, no relock protection, and otherwise very easy to defeat.

There are electronic locks that the government uses that cost 5 times what that Sentry safe costs, just for the lock. Obviously, these locks are a little more sophisitcated, and offer better reliablity and function.

A very basic, decent quality, mechanical lock runs about $150. How can you use a quality lock when the whole safe sells for $100?

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 11:43 AM

Unless you can show me something, in writing from UL, I would have to say that your information is incorrect.
Call them and ask for verification of the testing process on a certain safe. See what it gets you.

Manufacturers do their own testing under their own conditions and then produce whatever results they want which UL then endorses for a fee.
Let's take electronic locks for instance
How is that relevant to the safes I am using? They have manual locks. Similar to the same basic inexpensive manual combination locks that have been on our storage buildings at hom for at least the last 25 years.

a1abdj

April 28, 2007, 12:58 PM

Call them and ask for verification of the testing process on a certain safe. See what it gets you.

I don't need to call them. They spell out everything in writing. You can see for yourself here:

http://www.ul.com/faq/index.html

A small sample of what is said:

Q: Can you tell me about your Representatives and factory inspections?

A: UL Representatives audit a manufacturer periodically to make sure that a product continues to be manufactured the same way it was manufactured when it obtained UL certification. Factory inspections are unannounced and are conducted on a periodic basis. The UL Representative typically checks random samples of the customer's current production against the product description (Follow-up Service Procedure) written by the engineer who originally evaluated the product. If the product contains materials that are not readily identifiable, UL may conduct sample testing.

Now this is a generic statement made regarding all UL listed products, not just safes. If you'll note, it specifically mentions an engineer who originally evaluated the product. Believe it or not....safes are actually sent to, and tested at UL facilities by professional safe & vault engineers.

How is that relevant to the safes I am using? They have manual locks. Similar to the same basic inexpensive manual combination locks that have been on our storage buildings at hom for at least the last 25 years.

Many Sentry gun safes use a non mechanical, direct entry lock. No relockers, loose tolerances, and very little manipulation resistance. These types of locks also do not use relockers, and are easily opened by punching.

The locks I spoke of are mechanical locks. These locks have their own internal relocker, which are usually backed up by a secondary relocker installed by the manufactuer. These locks typicall have tight tolerances, and offer some manipulation resistance. Punching one of these locks will cause a theif more trouble that what it's worth.

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 01:05 PM

a1abdj

April 28, 2007, 01:50 PM

Simply do as I stated and call them and demand verification of testing on a certain safe as I and another board memebr did awhile back. You will be told (after getting days of run around) what the actual process is and what laws govern it. You will then be referred to the manufacturer for the testing process details. Stop quoting sales ptches from the company themselves and call them on the carpet like I have said and see for yourself the reality of the situation...or do you just believe everything you read?

Here's what I do know. Insurance companies and many government agencies require UL ratings on their products. If it's not rated by the UL or equal foreign system, it's not considered rated. If it's not rated, it can't be used. If it can't be used, it has no value.

If you own a jewelry store, your insurance company wants to see UL ratings. If you own a bank, your vault door will have a UL rating (not counting doors made prior to ULs founding).

As for the locks...you clearly cited (when questioned about why you say they will fail) electronic locks. The safes you slammed do not have electronic locks. The locks on them do not have sloppy tolerences like you are saying now either. if I m off by one or two numbers either way it does not open. I have had similar locks for many years and never had one fail except in cases of rusting.

I'm not slamming these safes. I'm simply answering your question as to the "cheapness" of them.

Here's a general rule: Cheap safes are built cheaply. Expensive safes can be built cheaply. Cheap safes will NEVER be built expensively.

Consider this: Your $400 Sentry safe has to be built out of raw materals ($$) in a Chinsese factory ($$) using raw labor ($) for a profit ($$). These safes have to be trucked to the shipping terminal ($) and transported across the ocean ($$). Then they have to be shipped here in the US to their retail location ($$) and sold for a profit ($$).

Out of all of that expense, How much do you think they can afford to invest in the product?

You are in the business. Point me towards some documented failure rates or some studies.

There are many sources of this information, but it is not available to the general public for obvious security reasons. Don't take my word for it. Call your local safe techs and see what they have to say about them.

I am not saying that you don't get what you pay for or that I would not like a nicer, bigger safe. I am saying sometimes you pay for more than you are really getting and if someone doesn't have a few grand to throw away on a safe the cheaper alternatives are more than adequate. Their is no reason to go slamming them just because you want to sell a more expensive item.

I agree 100%, but I'll share a secret with you. I sell cheap imported safes myself. The difference is, I know what I'm selling, and can explain the differences to a consumer.

It seems that many people buy gun safes because they want a safe, and not because they need a safe. I suppose it's some sort of status symbol. People who need safes don't put the price high on the priority list. Many gun safe owners want to spend as little as possible.

If you want to keep your guns away from smash and grab burglars and children, then an inexpensive cabinet or deadbolted closet will provide you with that protection. These instances don't need safe for protection.

Here's what I tell my local customers:

If your gun safe is so secure, then why aren't the local banks using them? Surely they'd rather spend $500 on some gun safes than the $100,000 that they spend on those vaults that they use.

When it comes down to it, you do get what you pay for. Sometimes it's better to have a guy like me explain it to you first though. You won't get very much useful information from the guy at the sporting goods store.

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 02:15 PM

Here's what I do know. Insurance companies and many government agencies require UL ratings on their products.
That is not at all true of non-electrical and non-regulated products such as safes. A gunsafe no more needs o be UL rated than do my tennis shoes.

The gunsafe manufacturers pay for the UL rating so they can list the safe as UL rated against failure in a fire. That is when the experiences of inspectors and firemen come into play. I have yet to find a single one that believes the safes do what they say based on their person observations.

The gun safe manufacturers know this too. They play the numbers game. They know that only 1 in a 1000 safes will ever even see a fire. Then if the owner of that one actually goes to the effort to obtain damages from the manufacturer, and not just rely on insurance, they are still in the black. The paying off of the very rare fire claim is worth the added sales the rating and warranty will provide.
There are many sources of this information, but it is not available to the general public for obvious security reasons.
Why is that? Failure rates for cars, door locks, etc are readily available though consumer testing sites.
If your gun safe is so secure, then why aren't the local banks using them?
Because it is a matter of dealing with probabilities and meeting federal requirements for FDIC insurance. Comparing the needs of an individual looking for a safe to protect a few guns from young hands or the common mash and grab burglar to the needs of an istitution like a bank, which is more likely to be the focus of a more professional and sophisticated theft attempt, is comparing apples and oranges.

That is like saying "If your standard SUV is so safe why don't the troops in Iraq drive them around Baghdad instead of the armored hummers?"

a1abdj

April 28, 2007, 02:52 PM

That is not at all true of non-electrical and non-regulated products such as safes. A gunsafe no more needs o be UL rated than do my tennis shoes.

You're right. Gun safes need not be rated, because they can't be. Therefore, they can't be insured in most cases.

The UL safe testing doesn't exist because some gun owners need to store guns. It exist because insurance companies need to know their exposure. If you are storing insured valuables, quite often, your insurance company will dictate you store those valuables in a UL rated safe.

UL doesn't just test safes for their fire resistant abilities. They also test file cabinets, and other freestanding devices. I can assure you that there are far more fireproof file cabinets in use today than there are gun safes. For a business that relies on the protection, and an insurance company responsible for the loss, a UL rated product is being used.

The gunsafe manufacturers pay for the UL rating so they can list the safe as UL rated against failure in a fire. That is when the experiences of inspectors and firemen come into play. I have yet to find a single one that believes the safes do what they say based on their person observations.

There are no gunsafes currently on the market that carry a UL fire rating. This is further proof that you can't just pay the UL for a label. Gun safes can not pass the UL's strict requirements, and therefore, can not be UL rated against fire.

The RSC rating is a burglar rating of sorts, and is issued by the UL. Key words here are "Residential Security Container". The UL doesn't consider them safes either.

Your fire fighter friends are probably right. I have never seen a gun safe survive a serious fire either. But I'm not talking about gun safes, I'm talking about UL rated fire safes. These are two totally different animals.

Why is that? Failure rates for cars, door locks, etc are readily available though consumer testing sites.

To maintain some level of security. If everybody knew how you could open a sentry safe in 30 seconds using a screwdriver, then that would put a lot of people at risk.

The failures discussed include detailed information about drill points and other entry methods that should never be made available to the public.

Because it is a matter of dealing with probabilities and meeting federal requirements for FDIC insurance. Comparing the needs of an individual looking for a safe to protect a few guns from young hands or the common mash and grab burglar to the needs of an istitution like a bank, which is more likely to be the focus of a more professional and sophisticated theft attempt, is comparing apples and oranges.

No it's not. You said that UL ratings don't mean anything. If they don't mean anything, why would they be required?

You further say that no testing is actually done by UL, and the labels are just bought. If this was the case, those UL rated vaults, required by the FDIC, wouldn't really need to meet any security requirements at all. Every manufacturer could just buy the tag and place it on their new cardboard line of vault doors.

That is like saying "If your standard SUV is so safe why don't the troops in Iraq drive them around Baghdad instead of the armored hummers?"

It's really not. Gun safes, for the most part, offer little security when compared to "real safes". Yet everybody tells me how their gun safes will defeat burglary attacks that not even rated safes would withstand.

I'm looking at a photo know in a Cannon catalog. They show a cutting torch cart sitting next to one of their safes, and the paint is burned. Please explain to me how a cutting torch is incapable of cutting through 1/8" steel.

BobK

April 28, 2007, 04:40 PM

Playboy, if you feel the need to justify your ownership of Sentry safes, it is not nessessary. Frankly I don't care. It's is amazing however that you doubt the knowledge and experience of those that work/service these safes on a daily basis.

The locks (mechanical or electric) and bolt works as well as overall design are vastly inferior to just about any US made gun safe. On the battery operated push button type locks, the first thing that breaks in the lock solenoid which mades it impossible for the owner to open unless he cuts it open.

The mechanical locks are'nt much better. The nylon self locking nuts fall off rendering the lock useless. The wheel packs wear faster and break.

There are no relockers on the lock or bolt works. The handles fall off. The bolt works become misaligned so the safe won't open.

When talking gunsafes, the words from firemen, or UL white coats don't mean anything to me. I have seen first hand many, many people that are totally disgusted and upset when their planned hunting trip or range visit is postponed because they can't get their safe open. Then they get more upset when they learn how much it will cost and that there are no replacement parts. Buy what you want. But you will never succeed in convincing me that these safe are worth the trouble. I know better.

Regards.

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 05:49 PM

It's is amazing however that you doubt the knowledge and experience of those that work/service these safes on a daily basis.
I am not doubting his experience or skill working on safes at all. I am informing him that he is incorrect on how UL does it's testing. The onlly reason I know is I went through several days of phone tag with their managers and legal department before finally getting the truth straight from the source.

As for the locks. Mine came with a 10 yr warranty. If they go bad I just call sentry and they repair the safe or supply a new one. I have still never had one go bad myself and never known anyone that has.

I am still open to someone showing concrete evidence that the more expensive gun safes are better. not anecdote...evidence.

This being said, I am still planning on getting one of the nicer safes (preferrably one with the Ruger logo on it) in the near future. Not because I think it will serve the purpose better...just because it looks nicer and is bigger.

If I spend $300 on this safe and it lasts the 10 yr warranty (and I buy a new one every 10 yrs) I am still saving alot of money over buying a $2500 that last me the rest of my life so the nicer ones don't really save any money or work all that much better. They are just nicer. I can buy a Ford or a Lexus. Both will serve it's purpose very well and go just as many miles. One just does it with more style.

Playboypenguin

April 28, 2007, 05:56 PM

To maintain some level of security. If everybody knew how you could open a sentry safe in 30 seconds using a screwdriver, then that would put a lot of people at risk.
Didn't BobK say earlier that opening one was a costly process? Which one of you is correct?
And of course foks get pissed at me when I tell them how much it's going to cost to get the safe open.

I seem to have noticed in my tenure on this baord that once safe dealers get involved in safe discussions it starts being like talking to used car salesmen. :)

a1abdj

April 28, 2007, 08:23 PM

Didn't BobK say earlier that opening one was a costly process? Which one of you is correct?

I charge $125 an hour, minium two hours, plus expenses.

There are some Sentry safes that can be opened with a hammer and a screwdriver in less time that it will take you to read this reply. Even if I did open it with that method, which I wouldn't because it's unprofessional, I would still charge the $250 plus the $10 for the broken screwdriver.

I have a good friend of mine who is a lawyer and works out on a regular basis. He used to move safes with me when he was going to law school. I've heard he's getting around $300 an hour now, and I'm sure he'd still help somebody move a safe if they were willing to pay for his time.

I once heard that a locksmith opened a safe with one quickly drilled hole. His customer was upset when presented with a $300 bill for 5 minutes worth of work. His customer wanted an itemized bill to justify that $300 charge. He presented a new bill with itemized charges: Drill one hole $5.00, Knowing where to drill that hole $295.00.

I seem to have noticed in my tenure on this baord that once safe dealers get involved in safe discussions it starts being like talking to used car salesmen.

I resent being lumped in with that group. There are many people who sell gun safes. Most of them don't have the training, experience, or equipment that I have invested in. I might sell gun safes, but I also sell $100,000 vaults.

I deliver gun safes for 4 high volume gun safe dealers in my area. If they are safe professionals because they sell safes, why can't they handle their own deliveries? Many gun safe salesman are like used car dealers. I'm more like a full service new car franchise, complete with service department and body shop along side new and used vehicle sales.

I think I have figured out where you were steered wrong:

I do think you may have actually called UL and requeseted information about fire testing performed on gun safes. I think that you were told that the manufacturers did not submit their safes to UL, tests were conducted independantly by the manufacturers, and fire ratings were easily bought. All of those statements are true statements.

The truth remains that all of that has nothing to do with UL. That is how many of these manufacturers get their ratings from independant testing facilities such as Omega Point. UL has not certified any gun safe as a fire rated container.

What I have told you is also true. Any safe that does have a UL tag has in fact been submitted to UL for testing or review. All fire safes are tested, and some burglary units are built to standard specs with standard materials and don't need individual testing.

So I don't think that you were wrongly informed, I simply think you've got it backwards.

BobK

April 29, 2007, 01:28 AM

A ten year warranty on a Sentry safe is like a ten year warranty on a Yugo!!

WHO is going to pay for shipping to and from the factory? The bottom line is this. In my professional opinion, your safe is a piece of crap.

I'm sick of ignorant know-it-alls who try to justify buying the worst piece of junk safe to put thousands of dollars worth of guns in them. Kind of like parking a Ferarri out on the street. It does'nt make sense. Same goes for the dumb business owners who put all their cash in these safes and then can't get them open the next day to open for business. Sure they saved money when they bought the safe, But how much did they lose when they could'nt open for business with no cash!

As far as the car salesman statement, you must be as dumb as you sound. All you have proven so far is your ignorance and lack of USEFUL knowledge regarding gunsafes.

Our discussion is over.

Anyone else who feels the need to buy CHEAP feel free to do so. It WILL cost you later. Buying cheap and buying smart are two different things.

It goes to show that some of us think differently. And then again some of us don't think at all.

ShootemDown

April 29, 2007, 04:22 AM

Mine is cheap, but it worked for years and years. The mechanism is simple. you put the key in, and you turn. the bolts retract.

I does the job, keeps the honest people honest. Local law requires a "safe" if you own more than 4 handguns.

you dont need a safe that can repel professional thieves, those costs thousands of dollars.

a cheap safe is good enough to keep out your children, the super who comes in to fix your toilet and your relatives who stay the night.

If you worry about real theft, insurance is the answer, not a $10,000 safe. (for the homeowner who have regular guns)

Marvinsson

April 29, 2007, 07:44 AM

a1abdj,

On a semi-related topic, I have a safe from Irwin Safe Company in Albuquerque, NM, and it's not fireproof. Is there a way that I can add sheetrock or something to it to make it a firesafe, or would I be wasting my time & money?

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

a1abdj

April 29, 2007, 10:52 AM

Mine is cheap, but it worked for years and years. The mechanism is simple. you put the key in, and you turn. the bolts retract.

I sell cheap safes. I also sell very expensive safes. I have seen failures on both types of safes. With that said, the cheaper safes are more of a gamble. This is true for mechanical function, and the protection they offer.

I don't have any problem with people who buy cheap safes, so long as they are an educated consumer, and are willing to accept that risk. It seems that a lot of people who sell these cheaper safes are selling the consumer a false sense of security.

I does the job, keeps the honest people honest. Local law requires a "safe" if you own more than 4 handguns

There are many laws around the country that regulate the safe storage of firearms. In California, one of the best known examples is the Department of Justice's requirement. The law not only mentions a safe, but goes on to describe the features a safe must have. If the safe doesn't have those features, you are in violation of the law. This is why many safe catalogs mention the term "CA DOJ Compliant".

a cheap safe is good enough to keep out your children, the super who comes in to fix your toilet and your relatives who stay the night.

I agree completely. I often suggest simple locking cabinets to these types of customers. A dead bolt on a closet door will also work in this situation. A safe isn't really needed at all. Not even a cheap one.

On a semi-related topic, I have a safe from Irwin Safe Company in Albuquerque, NM, and it's not fireproof. Is there a way that I can add sheetrock or something to it to make it a firesafe, or would I be wasting my time & money?

You can add X gypsum boardto the interior of the safe. This is a UL rated fireboard sold at all of the home improvement stores, and required by building code to be used for garage walls that share a wall with a home. Each layer of 5/8" board will give you approximately 30 minutes of protection in a 1,200 degree fire.

In reality, this type of fireproofing offers limited protection. It certainly wouldn't hurt, but it also may not ever help.

Marvinsson

April 29, 2007, 10:58 AM

a1abdj,

Thanks for the info. What is the chance that a safe in a poured concrete basement will ever be subjected to the type of temperatures we're talking about?

shamus005

April 29, 2007, 11:11 AM

thanks for the advice, everyone. It's enlightening to know that "non-gun" fire safes can rust your guns due to their fireproofing.

the search will continue for an economical solution to my dilemma.

Playboypenguin

April 29, 2007, 05:27 PM

As far as the car salesman statement, you must be as dumb as you sound. All you have proven so far is your ignorance and lack of USEFUL knowledge regarding gunsafes.

Our discussion is over.
Gee, name calling...classy.

Guess the used car salesman comment must have hit very close to home.

Playboypenguin

April 29, 2007, 05:35 PM

I don't have any problem with people who buy cheap safes, so long as they are an educated consumer, and are willing to accept that risk. It seems that a lot of people who sell these cheaper safes are selling the consumer a false sense of security
I bought my safes to just keep them out of the hands of the common criminal until I can get a better one later (or live my dream and build a secure gun room in the garage).

I agree completely that a nicer safe is probably better quality.

I do not agree when people try and make it sound like the Sentry safes will not work. I have had similar safes back home that I have had for 20 years and they still work. So I just base my decisions on personal experience. I also just buy Ford's and have never had a single mechanical issue in 15 years. Some people have other experiences.

In some ways I wish the ones I have here would go bad. it would give me the push I need to either get something more attractive or build the gunroom.

I would like either a safe or a gunroom that has a digital lock on it. I stayed away from them on the cheaper safes because of exactely what you said earlier. I do not trust the cheaper electronic locks.

waterhouse

April 30, 2007, 04:16 PM

a1abdj, thank you for your comments, they have been very informative.

Playboypenguin

April 30, 2007, 05:05 PM

This is a little bit off topic but what type of door or electronic lock would you recommend if someone was building a walk-in safe?

BobK

April 30, 2007, 11:54 PM

You can buy an American Security door with either S&G electronic or mechanical lock. See their website.

a1abdj

May 1, 2007, 03:30 PM

This is a little bit off topic but what type of door or electronic lock would you recommend if someone was building a walk-in safe?

This is a tough question, as it depends on the situation.

If it's existing construction, and you're looking for a "vault" door, then the AMSEC is hard to beat. It's light enough to be man handled into place, and dimensionally similar to most interior doors.

If it's new construction, I think the Fort Knox doors are nice. For better security, Graffunder builds some really nice doors. All of these doors will weigh over 1,000 pounds, and are most easily installed during the construction process.

With that said, I think used doors are the best value. You can typically get a 5,000 pound, stainless steel, bank rated door for a thousand or so dollars more than the Fort Knox units. This gives you real security and a heck of a conversation piece. These types of doors can only go into new construction.

If you're wanting to stay away from the vault door look, you can order FEMA hurricane rated doors with multi point locking mechanisms from commercial door dealers. These look like regular commercial steel doors, and are quite secure.

d94jonca

May 6, 2007, 10:25 PM

i've relied on my bolted down stack-on with electronic lock for many years now. never had a problem and didnt see a need for anything more expensive since my guns are only worth a couple of thousands tops, and in the unlikely case of a fire or expert burglary insurance would kick in anyway.

the comments about cheap electronic locks that refuse to open made me wonder though. if the solenoid (or whatever it was called) would break - does that mean my manual override key would not work eithe?. i could always cut it open but would really not like to as it would make a big mess. how common is it really that cheap safes break down to the point that the manual key stops working also.

thanks

a1abdj

May 7, 2007, 12:20 PM

the comments about cheap electronic locks that refuse to open made me wonder though. if the solenoid (or whatever it was called) would break - does that mean my manual override key would not work eithe?. i could always cut it open but would really not like to as it would make a big mess. how common is it really that cheap safes break down to the point that the manual key stops working also.

As long as you have the key, you're fine. If and when your solenoid goes bad, it's usually not a replaceable item. In most cases, you will simply buy a new safe and dispose of the old one.

The owners of these safes have a habit of keeping the keys inside of the safe, or loosing them. When this happens, the safe has to be drilled. Just keep your keys in a safe place, aside from inside the safe.