How to Protect a High School Church Missions Trip in Inner City L.A.?

[Psalm27]

I will be co-leading a trip of Senior High schoolers to inner-city L.A. this July. We will have about 14 pretty adolescent girls and 5 adolescent guys along with two male adults (one of them me) and two female adults (both probably useless in a street confrontation and themselves attractive targets). The trip itself may be seen by some as willfully putting ourselves in harm's way, but since Jesus did that for others, that's our justification for going to teach kids in the inner-city a week long Vacation Bible School.

Mixing faith in God and pragmatism here could be an interesting discussion in itself. I believe in praying like I have no one else to save me but God and then preparing to defend myself and others as best as He enables me. After all, God gave me a brain and a body and some useful resources. I'm 5'8" and 200 lbs.

So, with that in mind, how can I best prepare to protect the individuals in our group?

L.A. city law limits knives to 2.5 inches while in a public school area, unless one is teaching. We will be teaching a Vacation Bible School, probably not in a public school area, but I figure I would stay on the safe side and am currently planning to carry a 2.5" fixed blade neck lanyard knife under my shirt.

I know some marital arts: muay thai and jujitsu, enough to put some hurt on about maybe half of any potential bad guys we may encounter and to get my butt kicked by the other half. Between the small knife, martial arts and cell phone, I figure I could at least deter two thirds of the bad guys, assuming they are not armed with guns, on drugs, or mentally ill and aggressive.

In addition to teaching Vacation Bible School to inner-city kids, we will be eating at various ethnic restaurants with our high schoolers and will be there a full week. Plenty of opportunities for encounters with bad guys, in my opinion.

Also, one of the high schoolers' assignments, my least favorite to be honest, is that they each take some money and take a homeless person to breakfast. (Not all, but at least half of the homeless are mentally ill in some way. Some of that mental illness includes psychotic or aggressive traits).

So bottom line: 14 pretty adolescent girls, 5 adolescent guys, shepherded by 2 unimposing female trip leaders and 2 adult male trip leaders, one of whom is me.

* How would you plan on protecting any individual in our group who may be threatened, especially in the interval between calling 911 and the arrival of the L.A.P.D in the inner city poor neighborhood?

* Should I also carry pepper spray? (I think I should, the sticky kind that blinds and doesn't irritate the potential victim). Advice welcome on that.

* Should I try to get the other leaders carry pepper spray also?

* Is the neck lanyard knife a bad idea, more potential trouble than benefit?

I'm reading some books on preventing inner-city troubles ("Safe in the City" by Marc "Animal" MacYoung, etc.). Also planning on reviewing some Krav Maga knife and gun defenses before we go.

Any constructive thoughts or insights would be helpful and very welcome. Not going is not an option or a solution. Thanks!

[echaraska]

The best thing that you can do is stay in a large group the entire time of the trip. Don't let anyone wander off unless they are in groups, I've lived in some bad parts of town several times in my life and a group of people is more effective than a knife or pepper spray any day of the week. But, I would probably carry pepper spray as well, remember it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it!

Also, just be smart about decisions... Don't go wandering the streets at one in the morning or carry more than a few dollars on you at a time.

[oldbillthundercheif]

If you are so fired up about doing things as Jesus (Hay-Zooz) did them, wouldn't you be better off turning the other cheek?

But then there was that one quote where he told one of his followers to carry not one but two swords, and to sell his clothes to get them if he had to...

Your religious preferences make this an interesting issue, but if it was me, I would carry the sword.

You will not be the only preachers in these areas, though. Ask some of the other folks ranting on the streets how they handle personal defense. I'm sure you will get some interesting responses.

Have fun.

[Psalm27]

If you are so fired up about doing things as Jesus (Hay-Zooz) did them, wouldn't you be better off turning the other cheek?


True, if it is MY cheek, that's a different story.

Jesus also said, "Do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6) I don't think anyone would argue that 14 adolescent girls aren't pearls worth protecting from the swine.

Finally, wouldn't you agree that Jesus is the ultimate example of putting one's own life at risk to save others? That's what I'm asking about doing.

I agree though, the question is an interesting mix of trust in God versus trus in self, and pacifism versus self- or other-defense.

Thanks for all your replies!
Mark

[BillCA]

First of all, I hope your trip is successful and untarnished by bad folks.

All of the adult chaperones should carry at least a small can of OC spray with some education on how and when to use it along with where to carry it for quick access.

I'm not usually a fan of stun guns, but you'll be working in close proximity and if something starts, pepper spray may hit your kids or another chaperone. Using a stun gun could allow you to separate an antagonist from the group and push him away... just before you give him an Oleoresin-Capsicum baptism.

You might try contacting the L.A.P.D. Chaplain's office. There may be advice or volunteers that assist religious groups with these kinds of missions.

Since you also have 3 months, figure out where the kids will take the homeless people to breakfast. If it will be a local restaurant, see if you can't pre-pay for the meals and get vouchers -- or if it's a chain like Denny's, buy gift cards for the kids to use -- instead of cash. This way, if one of your subjects takes off with it, all it's good for is a meal you'd have given him anyway.

[DeathRodent]

Inner city LA covers a lot of ground - the neighborhoods are different - do you have a neighborhood or area name of where you are going?

For example, south central, compton, downtown, mission district, etc...in LA we use "major cross streets" as location aids - for example the Rodney King riots started at "Florence and Figueroa" which are the names of the 2 major streets that intersect.

I think pepper spray and maybe an air horn are better for group. Just being in a group offers a lot of protection in itself.

One thing to know about LA if you cut someone with your knife and he runs away there is a good chance he will return later, maybe that day maybe the next and do a drive by shooting.

Given your situation and the fact that you will be in the area for a week, I think it is better to frighten your attacker away - you don't want them to come back with a gun in a few days.

It is not as bad as you may think, stay in groups, stay in populated areas, think about where you are going at night escpecially, and don't flash valuables.

[Blackwater OPS]

LOL, it's not a war zone friend. :rolleyes: Just act polite, don't talk to strangers, and generally behave the same way you would if unarmed in downtown Dallas. Stay in a group so no one gets lost or seperated, and wear identical bright t-shirts so it's easy to spot one another. No one is going to attack you.

Carry OC if it makes you feel better, but just stay out of any trouble you see. Side note: Don't use the sticky foam OC, it can be thrown back at you.

Homeless people are not hard to find, but it may not be so easy to get one into a car with you, or a good idea. Skip that part unless you want to have some problems. This is CA, someone is going to sue you if their kid get assaulted by a homeless person.

[C Carman]

I work in LA everyday, rite on the border of Compton and Gardena. Its not like most people think it is. 90% of the time if your respectful and polite most people will respond the same way. Everything in the 'inner city' is about respect, so if you act respectful to people the worst they'll usually do is ignore you rudely. That being said there are the other people that come up the 10% of the time. One tip i would give is to get the number directly to the police or sheriff's station in the area you will be working in. Calling 911 in LA just gets you put on hold. If you call the station directly you have a much better chance of getting help.

[SpiritWalker]

Wow, I could write a very long response but everything I have to say is in the Word anyway and has little to do with the focus of this website.

I'll keep you and the young people in your care in my prayers.

[Psalm27]

To those Christians out there reading this, I realize the apparent contradiction of anticipating danger while doing something in service of the One who is love Himself and who works out everything in conformity to His purpose. The safest place to be is in the center of God's will. I got that down. (The fact that I'm going in the first place might indicate some faith in God's ability to protect me and everyone else).

On the other hand, we are fallen people, in a fallen world, under attack by the devil. I think we have screwed things up so badly that we don't even realize how awful things really are. Bad things happen. I don't think anyone will argue with me on that point.

Also, I don't mean any offense to those living in L.A. - I myself barely escaped assault by a crazy person in West Virginia, so it happens all over. This is the first trip I'm co-responsible for though. (As to where we'll be exactly, that is still being worked out by other people...I don't know yet).

"It's hard not to be paranoid when everyone is out to get you". =]

Thanks for your input and advice!! I appreciate it.

Peace,
Mark

[Blackwater OPS]

Hey, at least you won't be alone amongst the other religious zealots out here. Just take care to heed the no solicitor sign on my door, I mean it. I don't mean to be disrespectful (I believe strongly on G*d myself), but your words and tone are very familiar to me, and usually come from the guy on the corner living in a refridgerator box. :cool:

[Doug.38PR]

To those Christians out there reading this, I realize the apparent contradiction of anticipating danger while doing something in service of the One who is love Himself and who works out everything in conformity to His purpose. The safest place to be is in the center of God's will. I got that down. (The fact that I'm going in the first place might indicate some faith in God's ability to protect me and everyone else).


As a Christian reading this, I see no contradition whatsoever for a missionary or a Christian in any profession to expect danger at times whether directly witnessing to others for Christ or just laboring to be fruitful in life.
This is probably better suited for PM than on open forum (but I'll just consider it information for proper tactical mindset), but to say that you are "safe" in being at the center of God's will is hardly accurate. Your bad choice of words remind me of a line from Chronicles of Narnia in refering to the Hero of the book, Azlan the Lion: Of course he’s not safe. But he’s good

Such is true of God. Life a Christian isn't safe, but it is GOOD. Look at the missionaries, saints and soldiers throughout history from Paul to George Washington to Dr. David Livingstone.
They faced dangers FAR worse than you being in the inner city LA. Like Blackwater said, it's not a war zone. They faced bandits, storms, war, cannibles, savage tribes from all over the world, etc. But their work and legacy lives on to this day. They spread civilization and brought medicine and hope to those who had none. (not for their glory or name but for God's)
The Bible tells us we are going to face dangers and challanges in this world.
Like them, you must use common sense, carry what defense you can, don't let anyone go anywhere alone, stay in groups, don't go out after dark if you don't have to, be aware of your surroundings. Last but not least, realize that we are all going to die sometime. There is only so much you can do to preserve. Such is true of anybody anywhere.
And if you are a man of faith you know that God has it all under control and knows when your time is(even you noted that all things work together for the good of those who love Him)

If you are so fired up about doing things as Jesus (Hay-Zooz) did them, wouldn't you be better off turning the other cheek?


Members of the religion of Sillyanity have no idea what the expression means. It means, don't take things personal. Don't seek personal vengence. It doesn't mean don't seek justice, don't seek preservation of life, don't set boundaries. It doesn't mean be the world's rug or pushover while keeping a perky chirpy Walt Disney smile on your face while singing "Kumbaya" and Barney songs.

BTW Psalm27, I pray for safety and success of your mission. Go getum trooper!;)

[CALNRA]

My family is Orthodox Christian and we take it very seriously. when one is doing missionary work one seldom brings women and children with them for the very reason that you are concerned. a man who has nothing to worry about can teach with all his mind.

that being said, LA is not THAT bad of a place if you are not entangled in the gangland warfare and roaming around after dark aimlessly. If you truly feel it is that dangerous, you may be better served NOT GOING. The vast majority of violence is black-on-black, hispanic-on-hispanic, and occasionally across the two groups.

Be smart, be sensible and low key, if you are driving keep the vehicle doors locked, windows rolled up and keep knowing what's around you and be prepared to run a light or two if necessary. Oh yeah, stay in doors after dark, that's all I can offer as someone who goes to school near Oakland.

[Psalm27]

Good point, Doug. Yah, "Safe? Of course he's not safe, but he's good...he's the King I tell ya"...one of my favorite lines also. Your comments are great too.

Blackwater, we'll be teaching a Vacation Bible School to kids. I don't expect you will be coming and participating in that, so you won't hear from us. :cool:

Thanks all for your thoughts and your prayers,
Mark

[Blackwater OPS]

Sounds boring:p

Now Oakland, THAT'S a war zone.

[CALNRA]

Oakland? eh, it's okay, stay out of anywhere near MLK Jr BLVD and you are most likely safe.

Last time I dropped off someone at the Amtrack station in Richmond and passed the road that I came on, now that was a war zone. Never seen so many people with dreads in the middle of the street on a Thursday at 1 PM. I told myself to keep driving since if I made a U turn they would have surely thought it was a drive-by.

Oh Yeah Psalm, NO SUDDEN U_TURNS. seriously.

[C Carman]

Hehe, 'no U-turns,' its funny how true that is.

[maverickmage]

It's quite funny to see how people out of state views LA. I've lived in LA all my life and it's not as dangerous as most people makes it out to be as long as you keep to the basic rule that everyone should follow in any major city which is:

Keep to yourself. Even if the person looks dangerous, don't overtly act prejudiced against them. for all you know, they might not be the bad guy they seem to be. Always stay together as a group. No one should go off by themselves, particularly if they're not familiar with the place. Avoid alleyways and stay in plain view of the public. And for the love of God... don't preach.

Regarding weapons... don't carry the knife. It can make a situation potentially worse and the fact that most of those that you have to worry about are probably traveling around in groups makes your knife ludicrous at best. If you end up pulling it out, it will more than likely end up aggravating them so that they become more aggressive, or make it so that they need to show their dominance by attacking you...

and on a sidenote... picking up bums are a BAD idea. Unfortunately majority of them have some sort of mental illness and interacting with them might end up opening a can of worms that you probably don't want. Hell, some might even approach your group and start aggravating you, in which you and your group should ignore the person and just walk away.

EDIT:
Remember, if your traveling as a group, always have at least 1 adult in the front and 1 in the back to make sure no one gets ahead of the group and no one straggles behind. confrontation can help clear some problems, but it should always be the last option that you have left. particularly in good old CA LA.

[claude783]

I doubt that you will have any problems. The children attending a Bible School Summer program will have their "parents", older members watching out for you.

As to it being a war zone, I would hesitate to move about at night. During the day, it is doubtful that you will have any problems.

My wife's uncle, disappeared from Flordia, depressed, wanted to die. He was picked up by the LAPD who ran a check,then he was kicked loose. Living homeless. So, his daughters (wife's cousins) arrived to look for "dad". I spent 3 days scouring McArthur Park, the LA Homeless Shelters, talking to people on the street.

Of all the people I talked to only had one who hasseled me, but two of the other homeless came over that told him to go...we had several of the homeless say they "wished" someone loved them enough to come looking for them...

And yes, by the grace of the Lord we did find one homeless man out of 70,000. I needed to use the restroom and get something to eat, so wife, Missy (Missy wife's cousin) and I went to McDonalds. There they mixed up our order, which delayed us. Going back to McArthur Park, Missy screams out, there he is (walking down the street). Since it was a one way street, we let her out and go around the block. She is crying, hugging him and he is in a state of shock that he was "found". We hussled him into the car and returned to the park where we picked up Cora (other daughter) and my son.

It is heart wrenching to see little children living in the streets, knowing that they are starving, cold, dirty, and have no hope...and this is America.

Now, this is the part which might sound strange, carry a small pocket knife, not for defense, but if you need to cut rope, etc. For defense go and purchase a nice pair of work boots/shoes with the steel toes...can shatter a man's leg without all of the fancy kicks and punches!

[RevolverLover]

All of the adult chaperones should carry at least a small can of OC spray with some education on how and when to use it along with where to carry it for quick access.


Also, you can't have OC spray that holds more than 2.5ounces.

[dogtown tom]

...big stick. Not a Buford Pusser/Walking Tall 2x4, but 1.5" x 5' or so wooden pole.

Call it a cane, a walking stick, a hikers staff or a shepherds crook.

Decorate it, staple a sign or flag to it and it is not threatening.

[RevolverLover]

Decorate it, staple a sign or flag to it and it is not threatening.

That would attract more attention.

[Capt. Charlie]

I just gotta say this: When Psalm27 started this thread, I expected flame wars that would make thermite look cool by comparison. Even though Psalm27 has asked a very valid question, the mere mention of religion generally results in pandemonium, which is why the subject is generally taboo here at TFL.

At any rate, the expected conflagration didn't occur, which once again makes me proud to be a TFLer and mod. here :cool: . Thanks for keeping this civil, guys.

Psalm27, you might consider contacting the Chaplain's office at LAPD and ask how to contact their branch of Peace Officers For Christ International (http://www.pofci.org/). I'm willing to bet that one or more members would volunteer to act as both guide and bodyguard. Just a thought.

[Blackwater OPS]

Also, you can't have OC spray that holds more than 2.5ounces.

Where are you getting that from?

[oldbillthundercheif]

Y'all should listen to Blackwater... ATF agents tend to know the rules.:D

[rb4browns]

Not much to add what others like Blackwater have not already, but it's not a war zone here. Of course keep your guard up and of course be prudent - bad stuff is more likely to happen here than most other places. But it's not Baghdad.

I can't comment on the religious stuff per se, I'm an Orthodox Jew so I'll save the theological discussion for another time and place :D .

Enjoy what L.A. does have to offer - the breathtaking diversity, the beach, weather and just the overall exciting pulse and energy of the city.

As one of the other posters said, we generally define "where you are" in L.A. by major cross-streets. I live in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood defined by the intersections of Pico Blvd and Robertson Blvd. hence my 'hood is "Pico-Robertson." Distances are measured in minutes, not miles. I live 8 miles from my workplace. It takes me an hour to get home..... We call the interstates freeways here, and they are defined by where the freeway goes from the city center - "San Diego Freeway" is I-405, Santa Monica Freeway is I-10. They can be confusing. As in any major urban area be aware and have your finger on the temperature of where you are. If you start getting *bad vibes* as we like to say here in Southern California then trust your gut and move on.

Enjoy your trip!

[Kentucky Deer Hunter]

A week long missions trip... Now that brings back memories. I've been to Venezuala, Ecuador, and Chile (1 month in Chile) and I've led a group to Daytona Beach, Florida. Am I professional?... No. But I've never had a problem with "security" by keeping my head up and making sure that my other leaders were mature enough to handle the responsibility of a trip like this. I've never been to L.A. or California for that matter, but I would not think of it as a war zone. You can take pepper spray and other things if you prefer so, but there are a few basic things that you need to remember and hopefully you won't have to go Rambo on some BG.

1. Stay in a group (Already mentioned and Don't forget it.)

2. Don't look like a target. If you are walking around looking oblivious with a huge $800 camera hanging around your neck and your $250 Palm Pilot out checking your schedule, you are just asking for trouble. Keep it simple.

3. Tell your kids to leave their valuables at home (already mentioned but I want to take it one step farther). Valuables should include any flashy jewelry, $200 shoes, CD/MP3 players even if only the earphones are exposed, actual cameras (take disposables), and purses (use small backpacks). I also don't like the CD/MP3 players because one of your kids might not hear you yelling for them to get out of harms way. *Side note: Have everyone carry their wallet in their front pocket and as someone else said, carry little or no cash. We always had the kids pay for the trip up front and we paid for everything, that way the kids are not responsible for the money, lost or spent:) .

4. Keep a strict rule on what your kids can wear. Like somone else said, wear the same shirt so you can find your kids quickly. More importantly, do not let the girls wear clothing that is even slightly revealing. Actually take it one step farther, don't let them take the t-shirt you give them and make it reavealing by saying "It's so hot out here, I'm going to tie my shirt up and make it a belly shirt!". You've just made yourself a target. Make a rule on how short the shorts can be or if you're going to let them wear shorts at all, etc...

5. Make your kids aware of the dangers that are out there. Do not scare them and make them feel uncomfortable, but teach them to be mature and not make "scenes" or play practical jokes while you are there.

Now I know this a church event, but kids will be kids and no matter how good your group is, there are always a few that like to make a joke or cut up. Just keep your head on your shoulders and you will be fine.

[Samurai]

This day and age, a good cell phone is a child's greatest weapon. Make sure every child has the phone number for the LAPD, the hotel operator, and each adult on the trip programmed into their phone. If they get lost, separated, or worse, they can call.

Other than that, remember, nearly 10 million people living in Los Angeles walk around every day without incident. A VERY small fraction of 10 million people equates to a LOT of violent crime, but it's still a small fraction. You'll be fine. Just stay in groups, have a plan, and stick to the plan.

Oh, and the "take a homeless guy to breakfast" idea? HORRIBLE idea. Go in groups. Stay in groups. Do NOT split up and allow a 14-year-old girl to go engage a homeless person by herself!

[RevolverLover]

Where are you getting that from?


PC 12403.7 (e)

[Claude Clay]

homeless to breakfast. Think l o n g & hard on that idea.........i will bet you will come to view it as a top 10 on Letterman's list of DUMBEST IDEARS EVER. Top 3 I have ever heard from ~any~ point ~of~view. If you think my words harsh, wait till one of your guests goes & puts the rant in restaurant- damage ensues & what the police will say to you...that will be harsh. Perhaps buy them street vender food near a park & sit & chat with them---out in the open in the day light not to far from the street, four of you to 1 of them. Sometimes what sounds good in an academic enviornmet, when critiqued in the real world may be found to be fatally flawed.

[David Armstrong]

LOL, it's not a war zone friend. Just act polite, don't talk to strangers, and generally behave the same way you would if unarmed in downtown Dallas. Stay in a group so no one gets lost or seperated, and wear identical bright t-shirts so it's easy to spot one another. No one is going to attack you.
Blackwater covers it pretty good. Even in downtown L.A. most of the people are good people, and crime is a relatively rare event.
We will have about 14 pretty adolescent girls
Just out of curiosity, would the plan change any if the girls were not pretty?

[guntotin_fool]

I too have taken groups of people on trips like this, not to LA but to NOLA, before and after Katrina, Chile, Guatamala, and to both Buffalo County SD and Jefferson County Miss. both historically the poorest counties in America.

Make contacts with local (and I mean with in the zip code of where you are going ) churches, ask them for both logistical and informational help. Most are very willing.

Call the local PD chaplain, ask him which Logo's and team wear are gang related. Obviously ban any that are from the group. Find out what he feels is best response to gang trolling, that is, a car drives by slowly, with hands flashing signs out the window. Tell your kids this is not the time to make the "looser" L on their forehead. To some, no response, or laughing at them is a sign of disrespect. Make sure all know if a car comes by doing that and then makes a U Turn, it is time to get inside, under cover, or behind something sturdy, or at least get down.

Do the dress code thing, No belly shirts, no short shorts, Get matching ball caps and Tees with your churchs logo on them, nothing other than "mission trip 07" or something similar to ID the purpose of your visit. LA or BUST is not a good idea.

ALL kids should have a cell phone, 911 works in LA, but include all leaders cell phones in the memory, make sure they list their parents not by name by MOM or DAD or HOME, in the directory. In the event of the unthinkable, a cop can always find who to notify using directory. Check each kids phone to make sure the leaders phone numbers are in the directory. If they get lost, tell them to call you first, 911 second. If they get in trouble call 911.

Girls can not wander in groups of less than 4, this is mandatory. All trips to the rest room are in groups of 4, mandatory.

Bringing a Homeless to breakfast is a crappy idea. Bring him lunch, or breakfast, but include a tract or new testament or just talk to them, if they want to talk back fine, if they wander off, you have done your good deed and leave it at that. Many do not want to be found, many are there for reasons of mental instability or drug addiction. They often find any type of helpful contact to be threatening. We would drop off a team and park nearby, the team would hand out breakfast and a small care package of toothbrush, wipes, kleenex etc, and word of mouth would bring the needy to us. We always kept the kids under a watchful eye and kept a vehicle nearby to pull the kids out if stuff went south in a hurry.

Weapons depend on situation. Obviously you can not get a carry permit for LA county. Bringing in a gun without is a big NONO. I did carry where I was able to. We usually went as a construction/rehab crew to work on local buildings, so we had the usually framing hammers, crowbars, etc, Not the best, but better than nothing. In south america, we did have locals with arms who stood watch. I actually felt safer there than in NoLa even though I had a carry gun.

I do not know where you are coming from, location wise, but if you feel your kids are very naive about what is coming up, make sure that you get them to understand the seriousness of behavior in that place. Otherwise, have fun and enjoy the Lord's work.

[Mike P. Wagner]

Bringing a Homeless to breakfast is a crappy idea.

I am a Jew, but doesn't your scripture record stories of Jesus of Nazareth dining with prostitutes and thugs? It's been a long time since I looked at your Gospels, but don't your Gospels have some account of him being rebuked for dining with unsavory folks? If I recall that story right, he didn't hand them some food and a tract, he dined with them.

As I read your scripture, it seems that Jesus of Nazareth walked among and ate with pimps, prostitutes and thugs (weren't tax collectors more or less governmnet hired thugs?). It seems like he went to unsafe places and deal with unsavory people in the middle of an violent insurrection and an equally violent military occupation.

I would also expect that a number of the beggars he knew had "mental instability or drug addiction" issues. Alcohol was certainly known, and I think that I recall opiates of some kind being available. If they were available, they were abused by at least some people. Didn't he confront a crazy homeless man living in a graveyard and drive the demons from him?

I think it's pretty easy to develop a "stained glass" view of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus of Nazareth, but I don't think it's accurate. Wasn't Jesus crucified between two armed robbers? That suggests that armed robbery was known. Is there any reason to believe that being a Jew in 1st cenury C.E. Jerusalem was any safer than benig a suburbanite in central LA? I am pretty sure that historians will tell you that thousands of Jews were crucified during the Roman occupation, which made Jerusalem a pretty dangerous place (for a Jew).

I am not an expert in the Gospels, but I don't ever recall any mention of him carrying any kind of weapon or protection. Didn't he give a sermon on trusting in G-d, something about lilies of the field and birds?

I don't now how far you all take emulation of Jesus, so maybe I've got the wrong idea.

Mike

[Blackwater OPS]

PC 12403.7 (e)

Correct you are, since OC would probably considered "tear gas" by that statute. I have never heard of that being enforced though, it's a new one on me.

[C Philip]

I would definitely carry a pepper spray. I don't know about the knife, 2.5 inches isn't long enough to reach any vitals unless you plan to go for the neck or eyes, which is a pretty limited area of attack. I think a carry knife should be at least long enough to reach the heart and other vitals in the thoracic cavity.

[maverickmage]

@Mike

Please don't try to lecture. Times were different back then. Jesus was not in danger of being stabbed and mugged for dining with them. Add that to the fact that he was never alone but rather always had his disciples around him. (12 grown men with him? not a lot of people even now would try something) He did not go to dangerous places rather, but that he ate with those who were considered the dregs of society.

And back in those days... opiates and alcohol were for the rich. the poor could not afford it. Time has made a world a much more dangerous place. Ask any parents and they'll tell you that :p .

[claude783]

I keep seeing the idea of taking a homeless person to dinner getting a little feedback. Can't really disagree with the problems involved, however, again, if you go to any of the fast food joints, you will find the homeless, it would not be difficult to get something "carry" out. Another thing which is appreciated in their enviorment are "restroom" tokens. Finding water, trying to keep clean, using the toilet is a problem for them. A few tokens: have each member of the group ask for tokens for the restroom...then include them in the "take" out that you are giving to the homeless. You will have no problem finding "children" living on the streets who are in desperate need. To many, its just overwhelming...

As an aside, yoiu should all go to Pink's for hot dogs, maybe go to Roscoe's Chicken n waffles,

I was a us navy sailor during the viet nam war, went to many countries, saw quite a bit of the world, but the poverty is the same everywhere.

To Quote "The poor you shall have with you always!"

[Blackwater OPS]

Pink's is super awesome. Best hot dogs in the US. (or anywhere)

[Mike P. Wagner]

Please don't try to lecture.

I am sorry if I sounded like I was lecturing - I am trying to understand how Christians relate to the figure of Jesus. I don't have a dog in this fight - the Jews don't do missionary work (by and large). It seems to me that as a missionary, your ability to reach out and touch someone is directly proportional to your openness to them. Being open to a dangerous person is inherently unsafe. It doesn't seem to me that you can do missionary work and be "safe". As I read your stories about him, it appears the he did not have much concern for his own safety.

Times were different back then. Jesus was not in danger of being stabbed ...

It odd that you use the verb "stabbed". Try a web search for "Sicarii". It strike me that Jesus stood a very good chance of being stabbed after his refusal to confront the Roman Empire over the issue of taxes!

The notion that 1st CE Jerusalem was some kind of peaceful idyllic place with happy little shepherds and sheep gamboling around is just wrong.

I am not competent to judge Jesus's message, but he brought it to a dangerous place at a dangerous time - and it was a dangerous message.

Jews were crucified by the hundreds and thousands. It was not a safe time to be a Jew in Jerusalem.

At any rate, we are far off topic here.

Mike

[TexiCali Slim]

take a homeless person to breakfast.
Maybe insted of that you could take a homless person some breakfast. (like some McDonalds) you'd probobly have more sucess with that anyways since you could talk to them there on their own turf. Also starting before noon might be a good idea because it is before the homeless people get drunk or wired up on whatever.
Also I am just going to hang it out there that you may want to avoid wearing Red or Blue shirts, that might get you harrased in the wrong neighborhood. Gangsters are like snakes, it's not so much the older ones you have to worrry about it's the up and comers that are looking to earn respect by being as ruthless as possible.

Just as a Q? why arent you doing this in Dallas insted? Plenty of homless people here.

[Psalm27]

First of all, thanks for all your responses. I appreciate you helping me wrestle with how to prepare tactically for something that, on the surface, may seem ridiculous to some.

It is real important here to differentiate between me worrying about danger to myself, which isn't really the issue, and me trying to best prepare to protect a large group of youth in an inner-city environment. The protection of the large group of youth is the issue.

It is plenty dangerous in the inner-city here too. There are plenty of homeless in Dallas. However, we all live a long way north of that part of town, in the northern suburbs of Plano. Most are very wealthy, crime rate is low, police protection is ubiquitous. That is just reality.

(Idea you all inspired though: we might make a trip to downtown Dallas to a soup kitchen or something as preparation/bonding time. I might be able to persuade us to do that. That would be cool.)

This whole missions trip was not my idea, I'm just stepping up to help. The larger group of some 200 kids are all going to different places: some Costa Rica, some Mexico, some Montana, some Los Angeles, etc. So, the group I'm going with was picked to go to L.A.

As to does it make a difference if the girls were not pretty. Well, I don't know. They might attract more attention from certain elements.

As far as the big picture goes, if you believe that Jesus is God, then you believe that he is always in control. Even while he was being crucified, as God, he offered himself up for us voluntarily. (That's why Christians celebrate Good Friday, instead of just mourning it as the day of Jesus' execution as a criminal). I believe He is in control of this trip too. However, part of his being in control is that he is sending me along, with my experiences and sensitivity to personal defense and link to you all too. Maybe I will be needed to protect someone, or will be needed to prevent a dangerous situation in the first place. Or, maybe he just wants to show me that he is amazingly more capable of protecting us than my little efforts could ever be. Or all of the above... =]

So back to the nitty-gritty: no knives, no sudden U-turns, taking homeless to breakfast generally seen as a bad idea by many. (I think that's on the agenda though, so I don't think I can prevent it. It's possible that the group we're working with will help us make that safer: go in groups, find people at a shelter, etc. I dunno. That whole thing freaks me out too. Not because the homeless don't deserve our love and attention as much as the next person, but because of the potential danger to the kids). It very well may be we will be taking breakfast to them, as Guntotin outlined above. Sounds like a much better plan.

I have 4 bottles of 1.6 oz Mace Pepper Gel (the new stuff, not foam) on the way, one for each leader, as well as a 750k volt Raptor stun gun for me. (All just in case, I don't plan on us being trigger happy). I won't be bringing the knife, except in my multi tool. The kids aren't supposed to bring cell phones because they would be on them all the time with their friends (or iPods, etc.), so only the adults have the cell phones. We will get the local number for the police in our area and program it in though. Stay in a group, surround with leaders as much as possible, don't flash valuables. Don't go out at night, if possible. Tell kids to be respectful and not provoke anyone in any way. Dress conservatively, no gang colors, insignia, or anything provocative. The gals don't go anywhere in groups of less than four.

When we get closer to July and know more specifics, we'll get in contact with local groups if possible.

Anything else? Thanks again for your thoughts!

[gnut]

No offense meant Psalms 27. Aint there any souls needin savin in Dallas.

[Mike P. Wagner]

I have 4 bottles of 1.6 oz Mace Pepper Gel (the new stuff, not foam) on the way, one for each leader, as well as a 750k volt Raptor stun gun for me.

How willl you use these? Doesn't missionary work involve getting close to the people you're trying to touch? I think of both of these weapons as working pretty weill when there is some distance between attacker and attackee. Can you use them when the the attacker and attackee are less than an arms length apart? Won't be standing a pretty good chance of macing/stunning the students you are trying to protect.

I can't imagine your shouting "Stop" to someone who may be walking up to you to be saved, and then macing him or her! I think that would be counter productive to say the least!

I am not arguing here - just trying to figure out the protocol.

So some guy or group of guys who look like gangbangers (to people from realtively wealthy subsurbs) start approaching your group. What do you do? Do you mace them, stun them, or give them a hug and pray with them? How do you decide? If a smelly, unkept man walks up mumbling to himself, how do you judge his intentions - isn't he exactly the kind of person you are trying to save?

Mike

[RevolverLover]

So some guy or group of guys who look like gangbangers (to people from realtively wealthy subsurbs) start approaching your group. What do you do? Do you mace them

He can't just mace them if they "look like gangbangers." If he doesn't use the mace in self-defense it is punishable by imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars, or by both the fine and imprisonment.

[Mike P. Wagner]

He can't just mace them if they "look like gangbangers." If he doesn't use the mace in self-defense ...

Yeah - I am not sure what the protocol is when I am initiating contact with someone whom I suspect is a criminal and/or mentally unstable. I think the whole picture is more complicated when I initiate the contact. It's not like someone kicking down my door.

Mike

[DeathRodent]

OK the protocol for pepperspray or mace is you have to let the other guy hit you or hurt you first! Its California after all! I am being serious thats the rule here unless you plan to not be around afterwards (like run away and not file a police report).

When I first moved to LA I was a Real Estate Appraiser and as the youngest, newest, no experience, right out of college, last hired I got the worst area - basically east side of the 110 from San Pedro (until the office realized that San Pedro wasn't that bad) up to Watts.

My best advice - ignore and keep moving - do not stop and try to explain and engage - unless its part of your mission work - but ignore the ones trying to hassle you or that look like young, drunk, stoned, high, looking for trouble not salvation types - they will be easy to discern becasue they will be pushing for a fight. The ones that are not looking for a fight will most likely leave you alone or ask a lot of questions.

I also learned real quick that most criminal types are not early morning types - the two usually do not go together so start early and get back to where you are staying early - its going to be light here fairly late - I can't imagine that you do mission work after supper hours but maybe you do.

LA is no worse than many other cities - heck I'd rather be in downtown LA at night than Milwaukee where I grew up.

[BreacherUp!]

BillCA brought up a good point. Contact the LAPD Chaplain's office.
Know what areas you will be working, and program your phone for that LAPD Divsion's number.
If your kids are wearing some sort of church group t-shirts, you really shouldn't have many problems. This will also provide better ID.
LA is just like every other big city. Know what areas to avoid and when.
Be nice to everyone you meet, but have a plan to end them.

[claude783]

Again, the vast majority of the homeless in LA are not violent. Those who are usually end up in body bags, done in by other homeless. Most of the people there are just down on their luck. Factory closed, jobs not available, a few missed paychecks, family, friends tired of them sleeping on their couches, and presto, stone pillows.

The girls should be given a little "street smarts", don't go off by themselves, stay in a group, this means even going to a bathroom, take a couple with them.

Now the McDonalds I went to, has a park right next door, quite a few homeless around it. There was also another church group when I was looking for Johnnie, that came to the parks and was feeding the homeless...

Be as innocent as a dove but as wise as a serpent!

Going to Dallas and helping out is a great idea. At my wife's college (her work place) there are several college groups which go and work in soup kitchens, etc. You might contact your local college and see which of their groups go down to the inner city...also, check with local pastors who probably have "out reach" programs.

As for the mentaly unstable, we use to have a guy in Wilmington, the area I work (down in the harbor) who I called the Wild Man of Wilmington. Dressed in trash bags, hair uncut, a real mess. Would stop and give the poor soul some money. He was more fearful of "people" than you would imagine. With the cruelty out there, I suppose he was a victim many, many times. For awhile there he was cleaned up and was wearing a prescription bottle around his neck. But haven't seen him in quite awhile.

I suppose it should also be mentioned that any "physical" confrontation could result in your having serious health problems. You don't know who has what kind of blood borne disease, HIV, HEP AB and or C, TB, etc. Any of these gotten through a scratch, bite, could prove very fatal.

This is probably going to sound strange, but over the years I have had the opportunity to observe many, many homeless. First they will appear to have a chalky appearance, then this slowly turns to a kind of yellow: The final color is when you begin to detect the yellow molting towards a pea green color, after that you don't see them again.

A friend of mine, works at a Mexican Grocery Store, which had a guy hanging out all the time "homeless/drunk". I told her be kind to him he isn't long for this world. About 2 months later, was found dead...when she asked me "how" I knew, explained about the color change in their complextion...when I first saw him, noticed the yellow, beginning to go towards the green...Oh, well, as I said this is a strange post!

[Mike P. Wagner]

My best advice - ignore and keep moving - do not stop and try to explain and engage -

I guess that's the interesting part of this dilemma for me. Your advice is exactly how I deal with this issue in a strange city. But that seems counter-productive to missionary work. The core of missionary work is explaining and engaging.

they will be easy to discern

Is there a theological issue with assuming that you know who deserves to hear the message you are trying to preach?

In general, situational awareness would tell me to keep away from some folks - but I think that's the same folks you are trying to reach with mission work.

I would also guess that by the time you are close enough to hand some a tract or have a sincere conversation about Jesus, you're probably too close to use pepper spray or a stun gun.

It's an interesting spiritual dilemma (at least interesting to me :) ). Can you really evangelize someone while carrying weapons to be used against them?

Mike

[Abndoc]

It's an interesting spiritual dilemma (at least interesting to me ). Can you really evangelize someone while carrying weapons to be used against them

When the Pharisee and the Roman guards came to arrest Jesus, one of the disciples cut off the ear of one of the guards with a sword.

I don't suppose this was the first time he carried that sword.

[Mike P. Wagner]

When the Pharisee and the Roman guards came to arrest Jesus, one of the disciples cut off the ear of one of the guards with a sword.

I forget the whole story. How did Jesus respond to that action. Did he bless it?

Mike

[psssniper]

If I was to guess I'd say that you are going on a trip with the Center for Student Missions or CSM. My wife used to work for them and I personally have been on the LA trips with groups of kids. CSM has been doing this type of work in LA and across the country for almost two decades. They are a known entity there in LA and unless someone does something dumb like wander off in the middle of the night (...... like I did) you'll be fine. This isn't a meandering free for all through the wild city, you'll go to specific places at specific times to do specific things. Your "city host" is someone who lives there and knows whats what and they will be with you throughout your stay. Some of the things that you do will be uncomfortable and stretch your boundries while some will be easy, like the vacation bible school. You'll be fine!
Use common sense and be alert and have fun. Yes I did have a knife with me but I always have a knife with me ;)

[Abndoc]

Mike Wagner --- We're getting off topic and perilously close to a relogious subject, so if it's ok with you, I will pm my answer to you.

[Psalm27]

Thank you all for your interesting comments and thanks to the moderators for permitting a hybrid spiritual/real-world, self-defense tactics discussion. :)

Yah, I'm not denying the contradictory nature of protecting oneself versus making oneself vulnerable to share something spiritual. The whole point of going is to give and to bless, certainly not to hurt anyone or even be paranoid all the time! I'm probably being paranoid enough for the whole group, which, I think, is a healthy division of labor. :cool:

When Jesus sent out his disciples in the Bible (book of Luke, chapter 9, for instance) he told them not to take any provisions with them (including a staff, which could be used for self-defense). However, the disciples weren't made responsible for watching over 20 kids and were given specific instructions on how to do what they were told from God Himself, which makes their situation arguably a little different than mine.

More insights I've taken down are to be most active earlier in the day, definitely wear identifying clothing, and a few other things.

Mike W, the passage you were referring to is found in Luke 12:27-31: "Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well."

I hope I'm not "worrying" about personal security (again this isn't about ME, it is about the kiddos). I don't think anyone would argue that the above passage means one shouldn't shop for groceries or make other preparations with what God has given them. That's what I think I'm trying to do here. I don't see any contradiction. Good observation though. I appreciate the check on my actions.

I believe it makes sense to pray for protection and guidance as if I had no other resources (which is ultimately closest to the truth), and then preparing using all my petty resources to prevent any unpleasantries. It may or may not be a physical war zone,...probably less of one than I am anticipating. It will certainly be a spiritual war zone though, as it is everywhere, but especially where the devil has people under oppression. As I understand his tactics, the devil isn't above using some altercation to make this an unpleasant and distasteful experience for a teen to remember.

So, I would really appreciate your prayers, certainly value and will use your insights, and thank you for the great discussion!

Peace,
Mark

[nbk2000]

If you're that worried about it, and have a handgun, carry it, regardless of what the law is.

They can only prosecute you if they find out about it, and there should be no need to pull it, but if you DO need it, you'll likely REALLY be needing it.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

If you can get a TASER, that'd be great too, as most of the scummy types have had 'encounters' with it, and know what it is. ;)

If you go with pepperspray, don't bother with a little pocket can, get the 1-pound riot size, since you'll likely have a whole group of cretins to be dealing with, since they rarely travel alone.

[Hook686]

Are you not in the hands of God on such an outing. Protected by the presence of the Christ Jesus ? Love, or fear, the choice is yours I'm thinking. My daughter went and helped in the LA soup kitchens more than one summer without any incidents. Trust in the Lord.

[C Carman]

I believe wholeheartedly in God's ability to protect, but i also know the reality of life esp in a big city like LA. Bad things happen to good people. My friend's dad was a missionary but that didn't keep him from getting run over and killed on his motorcycle while overseas.

I was thinking about this thread as i drove into LA for work today and i realized, your group will probably be in more danger driving on the freeways than anything else.

[brando]

"Gods will" will never take me where his grace cant keep me.
But i try to be prudent and i try not to put others in harms way because of my faith.
i was homeless for two year as a result of my drinking and drugging and got sober 11 years ago and now run a ministry that reaches out to the homeless.
we take blankets and coats out to the hobo camps and to the people on the streets.
you have to remember something here.
when im out there, im on my turf.and when your out there your on their turf.
Take stuff to give them.homeless people aways wellcome gifts such as blankets and clean white sox,bottled water,food stuff they can open and eat right on the spot.
i would recommend going to a public meeting place such as a homeless shelter and getting with them there as this will be much SAFER for you and your friends.the staff there will know these people and whom will be best served by you.
i think this will be one of the greatest gifts to the kidds to meet the homless and help them.it will allso make you greatfull for your set of problems.
dress down!!! dont wear jewelry!!! " dont ever take out your wallet out" to give someone money.
if you have to give money give small and have it in a pocket and ready.if there is more than one homeless guy never let one get behind you!!!!
buy food coupons from a wendy's to give to them rather than money.
when i was homeless i allways ask people for money cause i would say i was hungry but it was allways for booze.
Going out at night? not a good idea.
street people go by rules that your not familiar with.
Hope this helps.
if you say a prayer and trust, i beleave he will put the people infront of you that your sposed to help.
Peace

[nbk2000]

God looks out for fools and little children. Everyone else...in Colt we trust. ;)

[Psalm27]

Hook686: Are you not in the hands of God on such an outing. Protected by the presence of the Christ Jesus ? Love, or fear, the choice is yours I'm thinking. My daughter went and helped in the LA soup kitchens more than one summer without any incidents. Trust in the Lord.

I agree. However, we are fallen people, in a fallen world, under attack by the devil. One of our missionaries' daughters was just killed in Africa by cerebral malaria just a few months ago. My choice is love, with preparation, and respect of the situation.

Good point though regarding fear. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

You can pray for us if you want! :) I'd appreciate that. There's a balance between saftey awareness and a good, trustful attitude in there somewhere.

Also, Carman, good point also about us being in more danger from accidents on the highways. My own mother was killed in a car accident two years ago. :( While it seems mentally less threatening than the other stuff, driving is the most dangerous thing we do, realistically and statistically speaking.

Thanks again!

[Dan M.]

There's some good advice here, but I want to echo psssniper's in particular. The church/organization you'll be working with to run the VBS should have the best, most pertinent advice as to local does and don'ts. SoCal isn't nearly as bad as most of the country thinks it is. Have some fun while you're here too. There's lots to be had.

[lavalamp]

OK. First thing that comes to my mind is mall ninja priest.

"and two female adults (both probably useless in a street confrontation and themselves attractive targets)"
right, like women can't fend for themselves AT ALL. Nice going. I'm male by the way. Or wait, they're not trained in those mighty martial arts like you, so they can't keep those homeless knife-wielding evil beggars off!

Isn't there that one part that goes "live by the sword, die by the sword"? Man, I dunno how you're gonna get around that one.
Knives, jujitsu, krav maga, pepper spray, and inner-city defense tactics--you're set to defend a whole city raid. How much pepper spray? Got enough for 3 waves of those psychotic maniacs with their 2.5 inch knives and UZIs and AIDS !?

You'd think that the people that are really keen with Jesus would wholly confide their trust in that He would protect them and their loved ones to the end.

But you know, in case that doesn't work out, you've got that pepper spray in your backpocket Psalm27!

Or maybe it's all a test!

My Constructive! Thoughts! It's probably best to ignore this post than to provoke any crap. I'm gonna try to keep my reply limited to this one post :)

I PRAY FOR YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE TO BE SAFE! GOOD NIGHT!

[Blackwater OPS]

If you're that worried about it, and have a handgun, carry it, regardless of what the law is.

I don't think advocating illegal acts is the right course here...

[nbk2000]

How many times have we seen people here say "I live in [insert city/state] and can't get a CCW, so I've carried my [Firearm Name] for [X years] without one"?

And then all the +1 replies?

Legal or not, it's done, and condoned by an apparent majority of people here, either with +1, or silence, though obviously not you.

Besides which, I could get into the Constitutionalist view that the 2nd overrides any local restrictions against it, so the local laws are moot.

And then I can get into how the 2nd is a RIGHT, and not a PRIVILEGE that can taken away, and thus even that 3rd-strike candidate gang-banger in the 'hood has the same right to a gun as the church-goer who's never even thought about breaking the law.

But I digress.

If someone is going into a jungle filled with dangerous animals, do you tell them they can't carry a gun for protection because the law says it's illegal? Screw that!

[bunni]

There's very few areas of So. Central LA that will be dangerous during day light hours - and you'll have no issues in Downtown LA.

The truly dangerous situations you'll recognize immediately, and I hope you leave when you do.

:)

[John 242]

I guess LA has changed quite a bit over the last 20 years since I left. I grew up close to Imperial Blvd on W. 116th st, next to the 405 (Before the Century Freeway was built). It was pretty bad.
No, LA's not Baghdad, but don't get lulled into complacency. Things can 'go south' in a heart beat.
Attacks do happen in the day light, or at least they did in the 80's when I lived in there.
My family experienced so much violence, that I find it hard to believe we are talking about the same place.
Just a different, although definitely negative perspective.
The advice given so far has been spot-on.

A 'heads-up' though; bringing a homeless person into a restaurant may end up up causing a confrontation. Some people aren't as charitable as you and may not appreciate your efforts. Frankly, most homeless people smell. Your fellow dinners may get pissed off and take it out on you. Especially the younger, more aggressive types.

[jimutc]

I think carrying a whistle to attract quick attention is a good thing, in addition to the advice of blackwater.

Fox Mini 40, or regular sized are great.

[Beckerich]

I'm sure you could pack a bazooka in your lunch box.

[SixDemonBag]

This entire thread is insane. You're not stepping into a war torn country, you're traveling in a PACK to a specific location that isn't all that dangerous. LA is dangerous if you're in a gang, not the Flanders taking a drive down Hollywood Blvd. No one is going to bother you. You've seen too many movies, LA isn't ANYTHING like you've hyped it up to be in your head, the biggest problem you're likely to encounter is finding a parking spot big enough for Jesus' bus.

Seriously, go easy with the tactical ninja routine. Pulling a knife will only get you shot in the 99% unlikely chance anyone even gives your group a second glance. The only time you'll be needing Jesus is when you're stuck in the hell that is LA traffic.

9 times out of 10 you have to find trouble in LA, not the other way around.

[Doggieman]

I skipped all the off-topic replies, but to answer the OP's question: go with pepper spray. Give it to all the group leaders with instructions on when and how to use it.

I wouldn't take any knives or any such thing.

I'd recommend anybody in a city carry pepper spray/mace whenever possible. Yes even men. It is incredibly effective against man and beast. Spray and run against all but those with a gun.