Glock 22 KB!

[SundownRider]

Don't have any pictures, sorry, but I will describe as best I can. Brother in law was shooting, and he's okay, just shaken up a little.
There is a visible split in the chamber of the barrel, starting forward from the rear, just under the numbers on the chamber. Seems like things blew downward.
The side of the grip blew out, right where the magazine release would be on the right side, about a 4-5mm squared hole.
The extractor took off of its own, and might still be going, for all I know.
Slide is jammed tight, although there is not bulging or damage that I can see, I think it is the barrel splitting causing the stoppage.
Case can still be seen in the chamber.

Not a double charge, as far as I can tell, since a double would have blown this gun to hell and gone. Methinks the round was not fully into battery, and a relatively novice shooter didn't know that anything was wrong before he touched it off, like a slide not fully forward. This would have a larger unsupported case area.

Loads were 3.4g of CLAYS behind a Rainier 180g JFP.

[AngusPodgorney]

Impossible! GLOCKS don't kaBoom, it's all lies! They're perfect, it must have been the ammo!:D

[Silvanus]

Sorry to hear that, but seriously, was it factory ammunition or reloaded? Almost every KB I've ever heard of was with reloaded ammo...

[mikejonestkd]

>>>Loads were 3.4g of CLAYS behind a Rainier 180g JFP.


Reloads....

kaboom!!!

Glad no one got hurt.

[threegun]

Name a gun that won't KB if fired out of battery.

[HappyGunner]

I take it this was using re-loaded Ammo.:rolleyes:

[Ralph2]

was this the first round of a magazine or a later round? What is the overall length of the cartridge? Hogdon shows 3.5 as a max load with a OAL of 1.125 inches. If the crimp was not tight enough it might have set back. That can cause a pressure spike. 40's were supposedly prone to set back because the case thickness at the opening varies more that with other cases.

I have not used Clays before. What is the volume for a charge of that weight? is it a small volume? I wonder how much of the inside of the case it filled after the bullet was seated.

[HSMITH]

It was an obstructed bore or setback, either one with Clays and heavy bullets is KABOOM time. Send it back to Glock, they will fix it for a really reasonable charge, and your BIL will be back in business.

He really needs to pay attention to setback prevention, it could happen again.

[SundownRider]

The loads were relatively mild, actually comfortable to shoot, and the bullets were seated to slightly under overall case length using a dillon case length gauge, and the rounds go though a factory crimp die before heading to the range. The round was the 7th, I believe in the magazine, and we had been using this load for a while without any problems. I was shooting the same load in my XD40 next to him went things went screwy.

[nass]

This may sound like a dumb question, and maybe it is, but how many pistols will fire if they are not returned to battery??

Glad BIL is OK....

[tango3065]

Read the owners manual and see what it says about using reloads.

[HSMITH]

That load is mild FEELING, pressure is at or above normal factory ammunition. Make no mistake about it, running fast powders and heavy bullets feels like a milder load than it is but pressures are not mild at all. If I read your post right he was a little under OAL listed in the data, this raises pressures even higher.

It is entirely possible to have a VERY mild feeling load running WAY over normal pressures.

Plated bullets slip in the case easily, combine that with the factory crimp die smashing the bullet back into shape if one seats a little crooked or something like that and you have every ingredient you need for bad things to happen.

Take the loaded ammo you have left. Push the bullet into a bathroom scale while holding on to the case. Put about 50 pounds of pressure on them. Measure before and after lengths of the rounds. If they are slipping you need to get that fixed NOW, your XD will pop at the seams JUST like the Glock did under the same circumstances. For that matter so will everything else you can name.

[BigJimP]

Glad to hear everybody was ok.

I'm not a Glock fan - and Glock says no reloads - and I think it's partly because they know a portion of the case is "unsupported". But I think the gun is designed so it won't fire when it's as far out of battery as you suggest - yet something went wrong.

I would recommend you quarantine your reloads - until you can check every one of them using a "case gague" - to make sure they drop in and out of the case gague with no resistance. Personally I use a case gague as a "go" or "no go" and if they stick going in or out I toss the cartridge. But if you get some loads that won't go in and out of a case gague - you need to figure out why ? crack in case, seating depth, resizing problem, etc

I know you are within the max limits of 3.5 gr of clays on that load but you might want to back off it another 0.1 or so ( but make sure you stay at least at the min). Even after I checked all of your reloads with a case gague - I would randomly pick at least 10 cartridges - pull the bullets and weigh the powder drop and see what you have in all of those cases. If you have anything over 3.5gr (maybe over 3.4 gr) I'd pull all of the bullets - dump the cases - and go thru your loader and find out why it is not dropping precisely at 3.3 or whatever you set it up to do. If you can't get Clays to drop what you need, dead on the money, I would recommend you consider another powder like TiteGroup that is a lot "finer" vs the relatively larger flake of "Clays". I like Clays in a 12ga shotgun - but I don't think it drops clean enough to suit me in a handgun.

I don't know if it's possible to double charge a round with 3.5 gr ( or 7.0 gr) but unfortunately, I think it might be possible to fit it in there. It is possible to double charge a round - and it would be a very bad thing. I would really go thru your loading procedures and make darn sure you have everything worked out to eliminate that as an issue. If you can afford it - upgrading to a Dillon XL 650 with the powder check station - might prevent this type of thing from happening. It's a very good press - and not that you can't load great shells with any press - but the powder check station gives me a little peace of mind .......

But please don't just continue to shoot those reloads - without checking them - we can all make mistakes ....

[LUPUS]

All Shooters,
I strongly advise you to visit the Glock features in www.thegunzone.com.
Please check it and end the discussion about the perfection after seeing phase3 malfunctions,out of battery shooting, KBs with standard pressure factory ammo despite of many upgrades.
Best.

[HSMITH]

Thegunzone is biased drivel, not worth reading. It is hard to find lower quality information.

[Sturmgewehre]

Not a double charge, as far as I can tell, since a double would have blown this gun to hell and gone. Methinks the round was not fully into battery, and a relatively novice shooter didn't know that anything was wrong before he touched it off, like a slide not fully forward. This would have a larger unsupported case area.

Loads were 3.4g of CLAYS behind a Rainier 180g JFP.

If it were a double charge, the damage you mention sounds about right. A double charge wouldn't grenade the gun, typically nothing more than what you described, sometimes less damage. I've seen a double charged .45 ACP blow out the magazine, blow off the grips but other than that no other damage was done to the pistol.

I would venture a guess and say the KB was caused by either a double charge or a case not being fully resized (although even this is hard to get a Glock to KB given the disconnector will prevent firing out of battery).

[Edward429451]

Another endorsement for steel guns. Plastic is better how?

I accidently fired a 40 S&W Hydrashok in my 45acp 1911 once. No damage to gun at all. Muffled pop, no recoil, gas everywhere, multiple splits to very bulged case, no injury to shooter. Field stripped & inspected, looked good, continued with my range session.

[AngusPodgorney]

Thegunzone is biased drivel, not worth reading. It is hard to find lower quality information.

Show me the bias? Just about everything is backed up with cites, etc. You don't have to like the messenger but that doesn't mean the message is tainted.

[HSMITH]

Edward, shooting a 40 in your 45 doesn't prove anything, that is the opposite of what we are discussing in this thread. Having seen a couple 1911's let go with double charges or a blocked bore I can tell you that the shooter was hurt worse than he would have been with a Glock in the same circumstances, those 1911 grip panels turn to SHRAPNEL when the magazine (made of steel) and magazine catch (made of steel) don't let go. In a Glock the biggest danger seems to be the extractor leaving at high speed......

Angus, there is a lot of history with the author of thegunzone, way too much to go into in this thread. Suffice it to say his writings need to be taken with a grain of salt.

[roadrash]

How many times has this brass been loaded?I think weak or split brass can cause KBs in chambers that are not fully supported!I love my G17 but I will never buy a .40 caliber Glock!If you want to shoot reloads ,buy an aftermarket barrel!

[Half-Price Assassin]

this is a very sensitive topic. there are many people out there that love their GLOCK 22s (me), and those that dont like GLOCKs. To the poster of this thread, if your story is true, thank you for sharing, but without any real proof, like pictures, or anything visual to confirm this, how do i know this isnt more GLOCK bashing? I am not trying to be rude, but just saying if you or someone makes a big claim like that, proof is needed.

But anyway thank you for sharing. :)

[SundownRider]

Trust me, I'm not Glock bashing. I have shot this Glock and others and have found them very reliable, well-built guns.

Please be careful in insinuating dishonesty.

In all honesty, it doesn't matter which gun, the point was the accident happened. I appreciate all information as to how this may have happened and what to do to to prevent it inthe future.

It just so happened it was in a Glock 22.

Would you feel better if it was an XD?

[Rob96]

I believe this one needs to be chalked up to a bad reload.

[LUPUS]

Dear HSMITH and other Friends,
All the Kb reports are proofed by photos. There is also more info about non-Glock KBs, slide fractures, etc. The phase3 malfunctions and out of battery firing reports are coming from the most well known LE agencies.
I also admit that Glocks are though reliable pistols. But simply they do not fit everybodies' bill. A pistol with a half cocked striker with a round in the chamber without a second strike capability is not for me. I also experinced that the hard primed submachinegun cartrigdes are not ignited reliably in most striker fired pistols. I want a pistol with a completely uncocked firing mechanism behind my chamber or a cocked but locked one which also will ignite any kind of primed cartrigdes without fearing of blowing into my face and hands.
Long live;
BHP
CZ 75
SIG 226
H&K USP
Best.

[roadrash]

:barf: GIAFR

[Abstract]

Sounds exactly like a doublecharge to me. Why would you think that more damage would have been done by a doublecharge? Firing out of battery might have resulted in a blown case, but there'd be no damage to the chamber, as the chamber pressure would actually have been lower than if the round had fired properly.

There's little room for error in .40 reloading. The use of a fast powder and heavy bullet grossly exacerbates the problem.

Glock will repair or replace the pistol at a significant discount.

[Officer's Match]

LUPUS, you could add Taurus to that list based upon your criteria.

[Edward429451]

Edward, shooting a 40 in your 45 doesn't prove anything, that is the opposite of what we are discussing in this thread. Having seen a couple 1911's let go with double charges or a blocked bore I can tell you that the shooter was hurt worse than he would have been with a Glock in the same circumstances, those 1911 grip panels turn to SHRAPNEL when the magazine (made of steel) and magazine catch (made of steel) don't let go. In a Glock the biggest danger seems to be the extractor leaving at high speed......


Forgive my ignorance on this but I don't get it. What's the difference? 30K or 40K of cup/psi going backwards out of the barrel into the gun is different how? Burst brass is burst brass, is it not?

Again, forgive my ignorance if I'm missing something.

[AngusPodgorney]

Angus, there is a lot of history with the author of thegunzone, way too much to go into in this thread. Suffice it to say his writings need to be taken with a grain of salt.

I know Dean. We don't always agree or get along but pretty much everything on TGZ can be backed up and corroborated.

[Abstract]

I know Dean. We don't always agree or get along but pretty much everything on TGZ can be backed up and corroborated.


Haven't wasted any time on The Gun Zone in several years, but, at one time, there was a plethora of misinformation there. One of Dean's first pics was of a blown-up Glock that clearly showed an aftermarket barrel, but he didn't acknowledge that for some time.

Dean is also lacking even a rudimentary understanding of simple h.s. physics. Unless he's made corrections, he's holding out the Portland P.D. fiasco as an example of KBs that were due to Glock's design flaws in the G21s.

[novaDAK]

Name a gun that won't KB if fired out of battery.
Name a gun that will fire when out of battery that much. :p

[JohnKSa]

What's the difference? 30K or 40K of cup/psi going backwards out of the barrel into the gun is different how? Burst brass is burst brass, is it not?You won't get anywhere near that much pressure from firing a round in an oversized bore & chamber. If anything, firing the .40 in your .45 probably subjected it to less pressure than a normal .45 round would have.

As far as the original poster's question goes...

From the Rainier website:

We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using lead bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data. If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend reducing maximum charge by 10%.

Hodgdon says in their reloading data that max for 180grs bullet with Clays is 3.5grs but adds this caution.

WARNING: This data is intended for use in firearms with barrels which fully support the cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in firearms which do not fully support the cartridge may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case head separation, or other condition which may result in damage to the firearm and/or result in injury or death of the shooter and/or bystanders.

So basically your friend's loads were near max for a true jacketed bullet (compared to Rainier's plated bullets). Following the bullet manufacturer's recommendations would have had him reduce the powder charge to 3.1 to 3.2 grs.

In other words, his reloads were over max according to the bullet manufacturer's recommendations, and furthermore, that's using load data from the powder manufacturer who says that load is only for pistols with fully supported chambers.

Wanna hear the punchline? I don't even reload. I found all that out in about 2 minutes using an internet search engine.

[jlh26oo]

I'm a huge GLOCK fan. My favorite make by far.

But I would never buy a GLOCK in .40. It just raised an eyebrow when I saw the before & after .40sw chambers when GLOCK recently redesigned them (with more support). GLOCK at least felt there was enough of a problem to change it. So it was either A) a real problem b/f they tightened up the chamber, and at best the new ones are the way to go, or B) there was no real problem, and GLOCK needlessly tightened things up (not a fan, even if it only impacts feeding reliability by a fraction of a percent).

Love GLOCK, but I just avoid them in /.40sw, ymmv.

[Joe D]

Hmmmmm! Split chamber - can we all say double charge together.

[HSMITH]

Edward, what you are missing is the 40 round in a 45 chamber isn't 'contained' well at all, it has big gaps all the way around as well as front and back. The gas has openings everywhere to escape. The case looks very dramatic, but actual pressure that the gun is subjected to is probably extremely low. If the 40 round is supposed to make 35K psi that will only happen if that pressure is contained in the case and down the bore. The extreme amount of fouling from this is also proof of very low pressures, when the powder burns normally it doesn't make anywhere near that much fouling but if you burn it in an open pile you will see the same type of fouling. Yes, gas goes everywhere and comes out of virtually every gap in the gun, the case looks very dramatic, but it just isn't a high pressure event.

Back to the topic. What press was the ammo loaded on? Have you done the very basic setback tests yet?

[SundownRider]

The reason I don't think it was a double charge is because the case would have been nearly filled with powder, and the bullet would have compressed the powder to the point of the bullet sticking out abnormally and being noticed.

BTW, the loaded rounds measured 1.126", which is .001" longer than what the powder manufacturer's listed OAL is, so no additional pressure was applied.

Also, I tried the weight test as suggested earlier and was able to put 80 lbs on the round and the bullet did not move at all. And yes, I measured it both before and after.

At this point, I am going to guess the brass was weak and being in a chamber not fully supported, caused the rupture, so we'll be getting rid of this lot and starting with new.

Thanks for the advice. You guys have a lot of knowledge I wish I had the time to accumulate.

[Joe D]

Your deductions are not correct. The unsupported chamber is one of the oldest Glock myths. A simple case failure will not cause the damage you described. A case rupture will normally just blow the mag out, not split the barrel.
Once again there is nothing wrong with the stock Glock chamber. My old G35 had over 100,000 rds of reloads through it when sold.
I have seen two Glocks blown up at an IDPA match. One was a G21, the other was either a G22 or G17 don't remember which. They were blown up back to back on the same stage. Both shooters had a first name of Randy.
Both were clearly over/double charges.

[Sturmgewehre]

I don't see how a case failure would destroy the barrel. The only scenario that really makes sense is a double charge or over charge.

[Abstract]

The reason I don't think it was a double charge is because the case would have been nearly filled with powder, and the bullet would have compressed the powder to the point of the bullet sticking out abnormally and being noticed.


I've seen folks put 16gr. of AA#5 in a .45ACP case! You're only talking about around 7 grains, total, in a .45ACP case.(I don't want to go back over this thread, and I'm recalling that you were using 3.5gr.) At any rate, weak brass won't split barrel chambers.

[atblis]

sounds like a reloading issue to me. Why would you use Clays for a 40S&W (yes I know there's data for it, but still...)?

or possibly out of battery

[SundownRider]

Abstract, it was a 40 S&W case.

Atblis, Clays was used because it was available, and there was data to support it. Personally, I would lean more towards Universal or a slower burning powder.

[HSMITH]

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of 40 loaded with Clays, and that is not overstatement at all. It isn't the powder at fault and it absofreakingpositive-a-lutely wasn't a case failure that split the barrel. I have done the testing, in stock Glock barrels as well as in fully supported ramped barrels. I am not guessing. It was an overcharge, setback or an obstructed bore. The overcharge would have to be at least 35% more powder under worst case circumstances. Clays will without a doubt get nasty REALLY fast at a certain point, but it is WELL above current printed data. The thing with Clays is you get very little or no warning at all before things get out of hand. Get some setback and you arrive at the point where it gets nasty really quickly, and if it is not a controlled experiment you could blow up a gun easily. Obstructed bores don't care what you are shooting if your loads are capable of much more than just pushing the bullet out of the barrel, really bad things happen with obstructed bores.

[Abstract]

Smith's got it! :)

[HSMITH]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Abstract. It is almost funny how many people put things down or comment on a particular gun yet they have NEVER done even a LITTLE bit of the testing to find out if it is true or not. It is truly sad to have a website that is devoted to convincing people of something that isn't true where the author has not done the testing to find out if it is true either and has instead chosen to rely on anecdotal 'evidence' from others. The whole Glock KB thing is mindboggling to me really.

[deadmarsh]

I've seen four Glocks KaBoom, all using factory ammo and all with LEO training. Three were G22 40 S&W and one a G21. The 40 cal were using Winchester and Remington 180gr standard practice ammo -- the G21 used CorBon 185gr factory...the pictures below are from the G21 that I have in my camera -- the others are at home on the other PC...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t78/JWDeadmarsh/NMColtpre-70025.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t78/JWDeadmarsh/NMColtpre-70024.jpg


Glock concluded the G22 were cased by ruptured cases, and the G21 seemed to have fired out-of-battery. Glock replaced the pistols with new, but took the old in exchange...

Dead

[Odd Job]

Thanks for showing us that, Deadmarsh. I would love to see the others too.

[FirstFreedom]

Hodgdon says 3.5 is max load for 180 grains:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/40sw.php

So this was 0.1 gr under max. Therefore, it would appear that something besides the load itself caused the problem:

-Bullet seated too deeply
-Too weak or split brass
-Lead buildup in barrel
-Firing out of battery

Least he's ok; that's good. .40 S&W and Glock makes for not much wiggle room at the edge of pressure limits - reloading must be done extremely carefully with that combo, *especially* with heavy bullets like 180 and 200 gr.

[HSMITH]

deadmarsh, I certainly appreciate your experience and value your opinion, but I cannot figure out how a ruptured or split case would blow the gun up. Any of us that have been shooting long have split cases with no harm at all to the gun, a rupture over the feedramp would just vent pressure down and possibly blow the extractor and magazine out but nothing more. As far as I can figure out any type of case failure will only vent pressure, not exacerbate it.

Do you know of a way that a ruptured case can split a barrel?

There was a local area police department that lost several G21's that looked just like your picture. Ammo used was commercially reloaded ball. I have been told that the problem was insufficiently heat treated barrels but no one I have been able to find from the agency owning them, the store that sold them, or Glock will comment on it.

I do know that they blew several up in a period of just a few weeks after recieving the guns, and wholesale changed them out with 40's within another couple of weeks. The store that sold them both batches said the 40's have been problem free so far.

[10 MickeyMouse]

Name a gun that won't KB if fired out of battery.

BHP. Specifically, one in .40 S&W firing handloaded 165 gr. Gold Sabres. The Black Pearl grip panels cracked and extractor went flying, but the gun was fine.

Double charges are no joke, but the gun should be able to digest ONE. Proof loads are way overpressure for a reason.

I'm one of those people that likes to push the limits, and many other handloaders have shaken their heads when I tell of some loads I've tested. But my all steel S&W and Tanfoglio autos have taken the punishment in stride.

If my experience in the automotive feild has proven anything, it is this: Steel parts will show signs of pending failure for some time, where polymers simply fail. Certainly steel can fail abruptly, but this happens at a much higher threshold than with polymer.

As for the arguement that a full-on KB in a steel gun is more devastating than a polymer one:rolleyes:. The polymer chunks will be less dangerous at distance because the lighter material slows down faster, but when your hand is wrapped around it, it doesn't much matter. Firecrackers are made of paper, and they've claimed many fingers.

[JohnKSa]

Hodgdon says 3.5 is max load for 180 grains:NOT!

Hodgdon says that 3.5 is max load for 180gr JACKETED bullet. Rainier (the bullets he was using) has a caution on their website that says powder charges should be reduced by 10% when using loading data for jacketed bullets with their plated bullets. That means that his load was actually 8% over max.

AND, if you look at the top of the Hodgdon page, it has a caution that those loads are only for pistols with supported chambers--"code" for "don't use these loads in Glocks.

So he's using a load that is over what the bullet manufacturer recommends in a gun that the powder manufacturer says that the load data isn't suitable for.

[Tim R]

The damage described with the 22 is simular to the damage to my Chief's 35 when he fired off a double charge of 231. His daughter was helping him reload and told him about charging twice on some. He thought he got them all picked out but I guess he did not.

Lets not forget our beloved 1911 has an unsupported chamber. I'm not afraid to reload for either 45 ACP or .40. Granted, there is a huge difference in operating pressures, but a double charge will bend a 1911 as well.

Edward, you must not have much luck. I would have to point my 1911 straight up in the air in order to get the firing pin to hit the primer. If I point it down a .40 just drops out the end of the barrel.

[HSMITH]

Tim, my buddy has a Kimber 45 with enough extractor tension to fire a 40, kind of a PUFT sound, gas venting everywhere and the gun is FILTHY in one shot, the bullet even hit the target!! The case looked pretty extreme, but all in all it was really pretty tame. His face got pretty red, but that was the only casualty from the mishap. My Para 45 won't hold a 40, but the Commander 45 I tried it in will. My 40cal 1911 type will hold a 9mm too. I don't think it is all that common but I don't think it is all that rare either.

I have not shot sub-caliber rounds intentionally in my guns, but if it happened it wouldn't be the end of the world.

[Edward429451]

kind of a PUFT sound, gas venting everywhere and the gun is FILTHY in one shot, the bullet even hit the target!! The case looked pretty extreme, but all in all it was really pretty tame.

That is exactly how a 40 acted in my Colt 45. I still have the case. Split 3 times lengthwise and left it in the chamber. I easily extracted the swollen case with my fingernail.

(appreciate the previous clarification Hsmith.)

[deadmarsh]

deadmarsh, I certainly appreciate your experience and value your opinion, but I cannot figure out how a ruptured or split case would blow the gun up. Any of us that have been shooting long have split cases with no harm at all to the gun, a rupture over the feedramp would just vent pressure down and possibly blow the extractor and magazine out but nothing more. As far as I can figure out any type of case failure will only vent pressure, not exacerbate it.

Do you know of a way that a ruptured case can split a barrel?


I'm no expert at all -- so I'd say no. I just shot this picture during training. Glock took care of all the pistols, so the end result for the LEO's was acceptable. I. like you, would sure like to find out what's happening here with the factory ammo. But with all the Glocks in use, I think it's a minor issue really, mathematically at least...

[glock223327]

My Kb incident was with clays & a 170 gr cast bullet ,but it was in a baretta 96 . It was the last round in the magazine .It took me a long time to figure it out. If you use clays powder it would be very hard to double charge it & seat a bullet as clays uses a lot of case space. At the time mine happened i was not crimping my reloads. Being the last round in the magazine i leaned toward bullet setback .Now i crimp all of my 40 cal. reloads to be on the safe side