First Video Footage of Utah Mall Shooting...

[KWBSales]

Here's the link: Mall Shooting Video (http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_044000331.html)

[mvpel]

"Courageous" video? Not that I blame the guy taking the video one bit, but the headline author demeans the term "courage."

And I can't decide what makes me sicker, the idea of being unarmed and defenseless and cowering inside a tacky gift shop while people are being killed, or the killer himself.

[Slugthrower]

Sadly, today this is what passes for courage. If you actually seek out and engage a BG, you are insane or just plain blood thirsty. America... :rolleyes:

Land of the what, home of the what?
Surely they jest.

[mvpel]

I wonder if the mall had a "no guns" policy like the Simon malls here in New Hampshire, including the Mall of New Hampshire?

[waynedm]

A few people in other threads said guns were banned in that mall.

Makes me wonder how many of the shots fired in that video were misses.

[Doug.38PR]

not much to see. I see a few policemen cautiously going by the camera at a few points and I hear a few gunshots and shouting in the background.

Courage? Not really. Courageous cameramen are the ones who followed the Marines onto Tarawa and Iwo Jima and filmed the action. Not somebody hiding behind some shelves in a mall store pointing a camera at the door.

Like someone else said, not that I blame the guy with the camera hiding in the store.

[mvpel]

I'd love to see substantiation of that gun ban rumor - I did some searching to see if I could find the mall webpage, but got thousands of hits about the shooting instead.

[Don H]

I wonder if the mall had a "no guns" policy like the Simon malls here in New Hampshire, including the Mall of New Hampshire?

A few people in other threads said guns were banned in that mall.


I'd love to see substantiation of that gun ban rumor

It is not illegal to CCW in any mall in Utah. Signage banning CCW has no force of law, neither does "mall policy". The most that could be done would be to ask you to leave. Failure to leave would be trespassing. No different than ignoring a sign that required a person to wear shoes in the mall.

[mvpel]

http://www.gonh.org/uploads/236/TrolleySquareGunBan.JPG

Photo courtesy of W. Clark Aposhian.

[Don H]

No matter what signage they post, it still is not illegal. Nor is it effective.

[Playboypenguin]

I agree that the term "courageous" had no place in that title. Truth being told though, if it was me and I was armed I would have most likely did what the guy shooting the video did and hunker down and let the police handle it. As long as my family was safe I would probably not get involved. Sacrificing my own life would be a horrible thing to do to my loved ones.

[ATW525]

I wonder if the mall had a "no guns" policy like the Simon malls here in New Hampshire, including the Mall of New Hampshire?

No matter what signage they post, it still is not illegal. Nor is it effective.

Which makes it about the same as the policy at the Mall of New Hampshire. That policy hasn't stopped me from carrying on the few occassions I've felt the need to venture into the mall.

Anybody who trusts what shopping malls call "security" to provide protection for them needs to have their head examined.

[mvpel]

Never said it was illegal, I should mention.

This looks like a job for the Gun Free Zone Liability Act...

[badbob]

This looks like a job for the Gun Free Zone Liability Act...

The Gun Free Zone Liability Act. I think I could support that, unless it's a misnomer like the "USA Patriot Act".

badbob

[Edward429451]

The courageous thing is just him getting a star on the curve (like kindergardners) for being a good little sheeple and doing what the administration wants.

The sign didn't work, and yet, if a ccw, or even a non 'permitted' ccw was there and engaged the BG, he'd be called a BG and charged too. America.

It's a shame that modern era has come to reward (& call courageous!) the type of behavior that killed Kitty Genovese. It's called intelligence to not even try to help your neighbors of your community in a sudden emergency! I'm not saying that I would've rushed out and engaged the BG, just that it's never sat well with me the thought of don't get involved, let the authorities handle it. Hide for my families sake? Of course I don't want to die, but am I not morally expected to have a sense of civic duty? Aren't we all?

There's a wacko over there with a SG shooting people randomly. There's people in the wrecked car that is on fire over there. I might burn my hands, I might get shot. My family's worth more than those people? Sounds good on paper I guess but there's something that don't ring 100% about the correctness of that line of thinking. Let them die for what is ultimately selfish motive? Whats happening to mainstream thinking? It's called giving back to the community, which is our extended family. We used to roast the people who wouldn't help Kitty Genovese, and now they would be called courageous and good family people...:barf: My conscience wont let me buy it.

[Playboypenguin]

There's a wacko over there with a SG shooting people randomly. There's people in the wrecked car that is on fire over there. I might burn my hands, I might get shot. My family's worth more than those people? Sounds good on paper I guess but there's something that don't ring 100% about the correctness of that line of thinking. Let them die for what is ultimately selfish motive? Whats happening to mainstream thinking? It's called giving back to the community, which is our extended family. We used to roast the people who wouldn't help Kitty Genovese, and now they would be called courageous and good family people...
Surely you are not comparing pulling someone from a burning car with getting between the local authorities as they do their job and the bad guy. When that guy was filming the police were already on the scene. Even if he had been armed he would have no business involving himself in the gunfight.

Not to mention that even when protecting yourself or a bystander you are usually not allowed by law to procede to a scene in which you are not already involved. Doing so would probably end up with you being charged with a crime also, being sued by the shooters family, or anyone else your actions may have brought harm to if you shoot the wrong person or miss and hit a bystander.

If I was there when it happened I would have first seen to the safety of my loved ones and then did what I could to protect others. If I was at the other end of the store in a shop (as it appears the camera man was) I would not go racing to the scene. I do not see myself as Rambo. More than likely I would only end up shot by authorities. I would have had people seek cover, then sought cover (with a good viewpoint) myself with my weapon at the ready and held my ground in case he approached.

Running TOWARDS a gunfight is seldom a good idea.

People are issued carry permits primarily for one purpose..SELF defense. Not to be a back-up or substitute police force. Trying to take that role would probably end up in disaster and start people thinkng that their are way to many people out there with a hero complex and a gun. If you want to help your community volunteer your time at a shelter, give money to the humane society, clean up a road, work in a soup kitchen, visit the elderly...don't strap on a gun and try to be a self appointed protector of the innocent and punisher of bad guys. None of this precludes you from pushing someone out from in front of a speeding car or rescuing someone from a burning building. They are a completely different scenerio which does not include killing someone to protect someone else and they do not involve breaking the law.

This is all just my opinion. I am no stranger to dangerous situations. I went to Panama and the first Gulf War and saw combat more than once. I did what I was supposed to do without a second thought but I still know my place and when to let professionals handle the situation. I also know where my loyalties lie. My first loyalty is to my family, after that comes friends and innocents and my community. Abstracts like god and country never even figure into the equation for me (a reference to the following post). When I went overseas and fought I did so for my family, friends, and fellow citizens...not for some supreme being or for a flag.

[robc]

We've had a loyalty inversion. My Great Grandfather fought in WWI, even though his wife was pregnant. Both of my grandfathers fought in WWII. One had a new bride and the other had a baby boy (my dad). The loyalty of our citizenry went something like, "God, country, family..." in that order. Now its, "Self, family, property, ideals, friends, etc." God and country don't even rate any more. I thank the hippies. Too busy protesting Viet Nam to pick up a shovel and lend a hand. When I saw that reporter calling our President "Mr. Bush" I wanted to reach through the T.V. and slap some respect into him (the reporter, not the pres.).

I have a feeling that the next couple of big attacks by terrorists will act as a glass of ice water to the face of America. Of course, there will be a herd of college profs telling our youth that it's our fault for being prosperous. I want to choke them all.

[Edward429451]

Surely you are not comparing pulling someone from a burning car with getting between the local authorities as they do their job and the bad guy. When that guy was filming the police were already on the scene. Even if he had been armed he would have no business involving himself in the gunfight.


Well, yes I am. Whats the difference? If I got burned arms I couldn't work so there's the fam to thiink about first, right? That would be the direction your logic was taking, save yourself & the fam.

I didn't mean get inbetween the police, I was postulating being there at first shots fired, before the police showed up. The tone of your post leads me to believe that you'd hide with/without the fam. I said I wouldn't rush to engage the BG, but society & humans being what it is, I/we/you should do something if circumstances allow for it at all. We shouldn't plan to not do anything, it sounds bad and would be reprehensible to me to even consider it. Sorry if I misunderstand you, but you come across like you care not for your fellow man?

I would do what I could that the circumstances allowed for. This is not rambo talk, it's being willing to help in an emergency. If the police are on the scene, all a citizen could do is add confusion to the LEO's already tense situation, not good. But if they're not...my god man, would you really leave the defensless to fend for themselves? Thats wrong.

[Playboypenguin]

I guess you misunderstood my post then. I was dealing with the situation that the camera man appeared to be in at the time of the filming. He was not in the immediate vacinity of the bad guy and police were on the scene.

If I was there when the guy pulled the gun I would do as I stated in my last post and see to the safety of my family and then deal with the bad guy as best I could but if I was not on the scene I would no procede to that scene if authorities were already there as was evident in this video. I am not law enforcement nor am I a self appointed punisher of bad guys.

[gc70]

Different people have different views on their obligations to society. Several generations have now been officially told to "leave it to the professionals."

[Edward429451]

It just sounds bad to hear Americans talking like that. We used to be a good strong country with a rifle behind each blade of grass. Times change I guess. You tryna make me feel old?:D

[mvpel]

Thousands of years ago, Leviticus 19:16 was penned:

"Do not stand idly by while your neighbor's blood is shed."

[Don H]

Thousands of years ago, Leviticus 19:16 was penned:

"Do not stand idly by while your neighbor's blood is shed."

And your point?

[Doug.38PR]

And your point?

I would guess that we have a responsibility to each other. Everyone should be armed, otherwise all we can do is idly stand by while our neighbor is murdered.

[Edward429451]

Hey thanks for the referance from an authoritive source mvpel.:)

Don, is that statement not succinct and to the point?

The point is to give all you people the other side of the coin to think about. This is a debate forum and people who come read here should have something to chew on besides: Everyone should be armed and defend themselves, if the planets are aligned, it's the third thursday of the month, you're in your own home and have already retreated and taken 2.7 rounds from the BG. Thats hogwash. Le's use some critical thinking skills and realize that we may be able to help our communities and our country by stepping up to the plate. If you would be willing to pull someone from a burning car, knowing it could blow up and kill you, then you should be willing to engage a wacko who is on a rampage killing innocent people, irregardless of the statutory laws.

gc70, many more generations have been told by THE authority to "don't just stand there, try to help."

[Don H]

Don, is that statement not succinct and to the point?
Actually, it's not. It is very broad and vague, and the applicability to the SLC situation isn't at all clear.

[Edward429451]

Broad, yes. Vague, no. Apllicable to the SLC situation, maybe not. Sometimes situations are such that its impossible to help.

If us responsible gunowners tried as hard to help people as we do to jump through the administrative hoops to be correct & lawful...The world would be a better place. Sometimes the law is not entirely correct and we have a responsibility to search our hearts to do the right thing where the law fails.

[Bogie]

Are we gonna bitch about it, or are we going to try to change something?

Let me know what you guys decide.

[mike2q]

All guns should be outlawed, then something like this could never happen. Also, they need to make that "no weapons" sign bigger. The problem is that the shooter proably didn't see it and wasn't aware of the malls policy. Since the shooters parents didn't speak english its also the malls fault for not printing the policy in multiple languages to ensure that people of all cultures know that they are not permited to bring firearms onto mall propery and fire them at mall patrions.

Sarcasm aside, someone made the comment about having to relly on mall security. I know for a fact that the security at trolly square is unarmed. They don't even have pepper spray. I have a friend who is a security guard for that particular mall and he tells me his only real power is to chase those damn skate punks off the rails. He also assists in walking pretty girls who work at the mall to their cars late at night.

Thats all said, I carry regularly and live withing 5 min of the mall in question. Had I been there I seriously doubt I would have tracked the shooter down to engage him Bruce Willis Die Hard style. If the shooter came my way and I thought I had a clean shot then I would like to think I would have the courage to use the tools at my disposal to save those people who could not protect them selves. I would only do this if my actions would prevent the death of someone who was in immediate danger.

I'd like to hear others thoughts on the situation.

also, The CCW issue has been disscussed on local talk radio. Most of the TV news outlets keep reminding us that the mall shoper who engaged the shooter with his concealed carry weapon was a police officer. He was employed by a town 45 min to the north. He was not working, just shoping with his wife. Effectively, he was just like one of us on our day off. News outlets reassure us he was a trained officer as if that somehow makes him super human in his ability to aim and shoot a gun. It really bothers me that had he not been an officer, that his heroic actions (officer or not, what he did took courage) would have been questioned and accused of vigilante behavior. Utah is a very gun friendly place and even here is amazes me the ignorance regarding firearms. People I know who have lived here their whole lives are shocked to find out that there is no waiting period on any guns. You walk in with a AMEX and walk out with a USP. The population is too easliy influnced by hollywood and what they see on the "news". Sad.

[Playboypenguin]

News outlets reassure us he was a trained officer as if that somehow makes him super human in his ability to aim and shoot a gun
That's a funny one.

No offense to the active LEO's on this board, but when I was in law enforcement I was amazed at the lack of skills with a firearm and general poor handling habits most officers displayed.

I even made a post not too long ago about how I was unfortunate enough to be present at a local law enforcement agencies firearms qualifications. I left very afraid.

IMHO, on any given day of the week, if you chose ten randomm LEO's and ten random CCW license holders and had a firearms competition the LEO's would walk away not only defeated but embarrassed. Not to mention how the license holders would also probably have alot more general handgun knowledge. I have been amazed in the past at some things said by LEO's.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Playboy - not to argue but I tend to think you overestimate the average CHL holder. I'm being cynical but my trainer friends tell me that most folks get the permit just so that they can carry in their car. They never train or compete.

At least, police get some training. I think you are overestimating the competence based on the committed folks you meet. I have friend with CHLs who talk the gun talk but have little training or experience under stress. I doubt they would be superhuman deadly shots in the mall situation.

The experience we have had with two CHLs in rampage situations lately haven't been that good. Yes, they aided in the situation but the Tyler gentleman (a hero surely) made some serious tactical errors as did the gentleman in the previous Washington state mall shoot out - where he didn't fire and got shot himself.

Now, these numbers are too small for any reasonable conclusion but I'm just more cynical about the average CHL. I certainly don't see all the CHLs in San Antonio turn out for a match or a class. It's usually the same gang.

[rock185]

It's pretty easy for some to talk about what they would or would not have done in this situation,or what others actually present should have done. Training, experience and personal courage would certainly enter into one's response. Contrary to what some seem to believe about police officers firearms skills in general, the officers in this town actually seem pretty competent in both their marksmanship and tactics. I have participated in three or four concealed weapon permit initial/renewal classes. The firearms proficiancy, and perception of the rights and resposibilities, of persons carrying a concealed weapon, displayed by the vast majority of the participants was troubling to say the least. I would question if any of the CCW class participants, at least in the classes I attended, would be able to effectively employ a firearm in a similar situation. I wasn't there and I won't pretend to judge the courage or actions of those that were. I do think that young off duty officer conducted himself appropriately and courageously.