Springfield XD KB!... [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums

Mokumbear

December 16, 2006, 03:12 PM

Ouch!

I am no expert, but it does seem from anecdotal evidence that
reloads raise the chance for a KB.

Do you think that polymer framed pistols of any variety have a greater chance of a KB?

Now, on the other hand, my local gun shop has a KB'd revolver that
certainly looked like it was once a pretty solid piece of steel hardware.
It was reloads in this case, also.

(Although, I might add that in a play to increase profits, they insist you
buy your ammo there, which I dislike). They can then point to the
KB'd revolver and say, "See!"...

Gib

December 16, 2006, 04:05 PM

The KB doesn't look even close to the chamber from the picture. It looks as if it went off just above the mag. Pretty strange.

BUCKMARK

December 16, 2006, 04:09 PM

"The KB doesn't look even close to the chamber from the picture. It looks as if it went off just above the mag. Pretty strange."

That's usually where they blow out. Many Glocks that have KB'd did the same.

Look at the right side of a Kahr poly handgun...they have a "blowout patch" built into the frame.

4EVERM-14

December 16, 2006, 04:15 PM

Could it have been a high primer-out of battery discharge??

Gib

December 16, 2006, 04:19 PM

You’re starting to scare me. :eek: I think I'll stick with carbon steel frames.

Doug.38PR

December 16, 2006, 04:27 PM

stay away from plastic guns

MrApathy

December 16, 2006, 05:09 PM

is that a KB or did it fire OOB
big difference. I know the XD40's have as good as chamber as you can get with a autoloader. dont know about the 45acp.

slide is OOB.

how many times was the brass loaded. 45acp kbing is nothing new
as far as mentioning glocks big whoop. 1911's have kbed long before glocks. though 1911's in 45acp for most part have unsupported chambers coincidence glocks do too but glocks have a feedramp and have the ability to have better support. glock has been improving the chamber support and same time had to rework magazine followers slowly fixing the engineering fubar.

table gunsmith doing a ramp or throat job on 1911 or glock will have the gun dangerously unsupported in no time regardless of ammo.

so what primer was used in the load?

something funny the camera date stamp says 3/18/2003 yet the newspaper in the background says Dec 15 2006

denfoote

December 16, 2006, 06:04 PM

something funny the camera date stamp says 3/18/2003 yet the newspaper in the background says Dec 15 2006

Good call!!

I'm begining to smell the faint odor of photoshop residue!!!! ;)

Ausserordeutlich

December 16, 2006, 06:07 PM

The original story is on XDforums. The camera's date was incorrectly set. Guy was using 5gr. of a fast powder; probably doublecharged, though could have been a feedramp-induced setback.

The composition of the frame had NOTHING to do with the event. You could mount a slide and barrel on an oak frame and it'd work o.k.

JDG

December 16, 2006, 06:43 PM

Doublecharge? Xds CAN fire out of battery, high primer could have done it. Most likely a reload booboo. :eek:

JohnKSa

December 16, 2006, 06:50 PM

stay away from plastic gunsI've seen at least one expert recommend plastic guns because they tend to absorb more of the impact by stretching or deforming rather than transferring it to the shooter or breaking up and turning into shrapnel.

Blowing up a gun has little or nothing to do with what the frame is made of and a lot to do with the ammo being used.

Mokumbear

December 16, 2006, 09:29 PM

Thank you for the clarification...

Are you implying this is a reload issue rather than a gun quality issue?

Certainly, using non-standard reloads adds a "wild card" to the equation.

Anyway, just like in aviation they say "any landing you can walk away from is a good landing",
I suppose that any KB that just results in a little hand injury is no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

All the same, on 2nd handling (but not firing) I was not really thrilled with the XD95.
It just seemed "cheap".

I would prefer my handguns made in the US, Germany or Austria, but that's just my 2 cents.

arkie2

December 16, 2006, 10:01 PM

Anyway, just like in aviation they say "any landing you can walk away from is a good landing",

They also say the definition of an excellent landing is one where you can use the equipment again. Guess this would just qualify as a good landing!

Sarge

December 16, 2006, 10:08 PM

What you have here is a case head failure. It blows out the bottom of the case at the 6 O'clock position and down through the mag well, often wrecking the mag and grips. This happens with the gun in full lockup.

It can be due to weakened brass, an overcharge or a deep-seated bullet that spiked the pressure.

The gun handled the pressure well enough for a plastic pistola. I have seen the same thing with 1911's whose barrels have have been over-ramped, leaving too much unsupported brass. It typically wrecks or blows the mag out, and cracks one or both grips.

KaBooms are rare in 9mm Glocks; they are much more prevalent in the .40+ Glocks. Having been privvy to NCIC teletypes on the subject since the guns came out, I can tell you that it's not "the ammo." Many LE Glocks have cracked up with factory loads.

This is the first XD I have seen that suffered pressure-related structural damage. After running three of them hard for a couple of years (including LOTS of lead-bullet reloads in the .40's) I'm pretty sure that their full chamber support is the reason why we haven't seen more postsl ike this one.

I'm not particularly "pro XD", and in fact I won't buy anymore until Springfield changes their "no parts for the peons" policy. Neither am I 'anti-Glock" but if I had one in .40+ I would be ditching the factory barrel for an aftermarket job with better chamber support and conventional rifling.

...or just keep my 1911, which suits my purposes fine.

JohnKSa

December 16, 2006, 10:44 PM

Having been privvy to NCIC teletypes on the subject since the guns came out, I can tell you that it's not "the ammo." Many LE Glocks have cracked up with factory loads.Like any other manufacturing concern, it's safe to assume that Glock puts out a faulty gun now and again--so you're right, it's not always the ammo.

However, I feel safe in making a couple of statements.

Whatever the cause of a particular kB!, the frame material is not the issue.

All factory ammunition is not the same. I've seen internet articles about a few kB!s resulting from the dangerously shoddy A-Merc ammunition. Those got written up as "factory ammunition kB!s", but that's hardly the whole story. Even Federal--one of the better manufacturers, had some ammunition issues early on apparently resulting in kB!s that drove them to redesign their .40S&W case. Again, that's factory ammunition causing kB!s but where the gun isn't at fault.

It's hard to get good (accurate) documentation on the ammunition being used in kB!s. As I've posted before, the one and only kB! that I've been around ruined the gun and also apparently damaged the memory of the shooter while leaving him otherwise totally uninjured. :rolleyes: He couldn't remember anything about the ammunition he'd been using--said he was using lots of different kinds. Later some of his friends (who were also at the range) confided to me that this was his first effort at reloading. Another "factory ammunition kB!?" Well, that's how the shooter reported it. He was just hoping Glock would give him a gun--or at least fix his cheap. Now tell me that a police officer who blows up an issue weapon using reloaded ammunition in violation of his department's policy is going to stand up and say that he ruined PD property by breaking the rules. Probably not--that's more factory ammunition kB!s.

Setback. Even good quality .40S&W factory ammunition without any design flaws can be rendered very dangerous with even moderate amounts of setback. In the 180gr loadings, relatively small amounts of setback (caused by repeatedly rechambering a round in an autopistol) can easily drive the chamber pressure past proof pressure levels resulting in yet another way that factory ammunition--even good quality factory ammunition can blow up a perfectly good gun.

Am I saying that it's ALWAYS the ammunition? No, of course not, there are almost certainly cases where there's a problem with the gun. Saying otherwise would be just as foolish as claiming that it's ALWAYS the gun.

Daves-got-guns

December 16, 2006, 10:54 PM

i would have to say, i would not buy ANY glock in .40, just because i have heard awhole hellofa lot more kbs and out of battery firing cause kbs in THIS platform then any other gun on here. I have scene pics of 1911s, smith wessons a ruger, but for glocks little over 20 year service and as many kbs as ive heard of, id say no glockie for me. I would buy a glock in 9mm, because i havent heard of a handfull of kbs in this caliber, but the .40 sound slike too much. No reloads in any of my autoloaders, even though i dont reload they will never touch or chamber into any of my weapons. Factory ammo works plenty good, and reloading in a revolver might be ok, but id rather not push it.

Sarge

December 16, 2006, 11:23 PM

John,

I am personally aware of three that went KaBlooey at department qualifications. One was with Winchester USA .40 ball, and another .40 (IIRC) was with Hydrashoks. The third was a 10mm, and it was a reload- the same reload they had shot hundreds of through Colt Deltas, without a problem.

Those NCIC TTY's I mentioned? The vast majority, WAY above 80% were at department quals, during a firing exercise, and with factory ammunition. We saw (my wife & I; she was a 911 dispatcher and I was the Sgt. in charge of the firearms program at the time) between 50 and 75 of those TTY's over 5 years, between '90 & '94. I didn't keep a tally of which ammo blew what caliber Glock. It became apparent early on that they were blowing with a wide enough variety of issued factory loads, that no one brand was responsible. There was simply no other conclusion to arrive at, other than the gun itself having a problem.

I have had two different Dept's under my belt since then, and both have either tried to get me to buy a Glock, or tried to issue me one. I have thus far successfully avoided either one. Sigs, Berettas and 1911's have occupied my duty holsters when I carried autos. i may get stuck with one someday, but I will replace the factory barrel with an aftermarket job with better chamber support- and conventional rifling. Or I simply won't carry it.

Shane Tuttle

December 17, 2006, 12:11 AM

Understanding that all aspects must be considered, you really have to just put 2+2 together here. "Reload"? "Lead RN"? I don't care if it's the almighty 1911, drop in sand then pick up and keep firin' Glock, or the only polymer gun you should get XD. Personal reloads jack up the probability of failures. Throw all the "data" you want, but common sense dictates that.
"Not only a Glock issue or a fully supported chamber issue"? Sure doesn't help matters either.
"Glock haters are not going to like this news"? If you're building an argument that XD "lovers" aren't going to have a leg to stand on anymore based on those pics, I think you'd better not pursue law. Besides, I think that a good number of Glock "haters" really don't want any good citizen behing any gun that fails no matter the brand. Maybe I'm off of context.
The word "Reload" ought to be closely examined. There's not a SINGLE gun on the market that is immune to faulty reloads.
Both brands of guns are well made and isolated incidents can and WILL occur.

JohnKSa

December 17, 2006, 12:22 AM

Even if the problems happened on the range with qualification ammo, that still doesn't totally rule out ammunition issues. As I pointed out, Federal had some problems with some of their early .40S&W ammo. Even factory ammunition from normally reliable sources is not immune from blowing up guns.There was simply no other conclusion to arrive at, other than the gun itself having a problem.Well, not exactly. Even when it seems that there is a wide variety of good quality ammunition causing the problem, there is actually another quite reasonable possibility. It's possible for a perfectly good round of ammunition to be the one travelling down the bore when a perfectly safe gun comes apart. Stay with me now! :D

Shooting excellent quality jacketed ammunition down the leaded bore of a Glock pistol (or even other pistols--some Beretta pistol manuals contain a strong warning against this practice) is a great way to get it to spontaneously disassemble. Add to that the fact that it's often difficult to detect leading in the Glock bore (I once had to argue for quite awhile with a poster on another forum to convince him that the used Glock he just bought had a heavily leaded bore) and you get a very plausible way for a person to blow up a perfectly safe gun with perfectly safe ammunition.

Sure, they're firing good quality qualification ammo on the range under supervision--but did someone check the bore for leading, BEFORE the qualification started, to see if the "cramming" they did to pass the qualification was done with cheap lead ammunition? Probably not...The third was a 10mm, and it was a reload- the same reload they had shot hundreds of through Colt Deltas, without a problem.Like it or not, there's a good reason for the "no reload" prohibition that Glocks come with. The larger chambers can definitely stress the brass more--if the brass has been through a previous firing cycle, that extra stress can be enough to get a failure. I can only say that in this case, if a person doesn't want to follow the manufacturer's instructions, Glocks are not for them unless they're extremely careful and know about as much about the Glock pistols and reloading as Glock does.

Again, I am NOT saying that all Glock kB!s are ammunition related! That would be just as foolish as maintaining that all of them are gun related.

Shane Tuttle

December 17, 2006, 01:51 AM

John and invssgt,
I believe those are valid statements you posted.
I'm not a hater of either brand. I just think the obvious sometimes stares right at people and they still suggest little or no wrong doing.

threegun

December 17, 2006, 07:11 AM

What I find suspiciously funny is how so many KB's by Glock are from Law Enforcement. 50-75 KB's with 80 percent law enforcement.....why? I also find it odd that with so many civilians owning Glocks there aren't dozens of pictures like the XD. Glock out sells XD and has been around much longer so where are the pictures? Something stinks, lots of story's and few pictures.

The only KB I witnessed was a 1911 and a reload. Despite the steel frame it blew the mag contents out the bottom and the grips turned into splinters under the shooters hand. The man wasn't injured bad but did suffer some pokes and burns.

Sarge

December 17, 2006, 08:15 AM

OK, then, it just must be the ammo, improper cleaning, bad reloads...anything but a design flaw by Glock. Glad we settled that. Anybody thirsty?

http://brandnoise.typepad.com/brand_noise/images/koolaid.gif

Shane Tuttle

December 17, 2006, 09:06 AM

...+1!

Striker1

December 17, 2006, 09:16 AM

Ummmm...Glock-ade!

Ausserordeutlich

December 17, 2006, 09:52 AM

Invssgt: While I find your "expert" analysis of handgun design to hardly merit a response, I would be interested in how that one reload that went bad was "exactly the same" as all the other reloads that didn't go bad? You really don't know, do you? Of course not!

Back to those NCIC reports! I'm sure there's lots of "expert" information there about handgun design. I doubt that Glock's design had anything to do with that XD's problems. As to how the plastic stood up to high-pressure loads; frames don't stand up to high pressure or low pressure. They just serve as a platform for the parts that do stand up to high pressure.

Sarge

December 17, 2006, 10:46 AM

Ausserordeutlich,

I never claimed to be an "expert".

My "analysis of handgun design" is nothing of the sort. It is simply the shared experience of a LE firearms instructor during the advent of the Glock pistol, in law enforcement. The NCIC reports reflected the collective experience of agencies nationwide, during that same time. I don't recall any efforts at handgun design analysis incorporated in any of them.

We did however pay attention to them. Good police work is a matter of eliminating ungrounded theory, identifying common denominators, examining evidence, and being able to recognize probable cause. You become pretty cold and analytical, and if your head's on straight your only allegiance is to the truth. We carry this mindset over into our evaluation of equipment, and while there are always some 'brand cheerleaders' in every outfit, the average cop don't care whether he's driving a Ford or Chevy, as long as it works and don't blow up under him when he needs it most. Car or gun aficionados certainly exist in law enforcement, but few in admin listen to them. So in the end the bean counters win and the Glock is now prolific in law enforcement.

"That one reload that went bad" was positively NOT "exactly the same" as all the others. Safe reloading (which I have done for 30 years) is a matter of staying within a set of acceptable tolerances, and only an idiot would suggest that any two from the same batch was "exactly the same" anymore than any two rounds from a box of factory loads are "exactly the same." Hell, it may have been a bad reload for all I know. What may be relevant is that one reload from that batch blew a 10mm Glock, and the rest were fired through Colt Deltas without incident. I guess that should tell us that the Colts were all faulty? My penchant for common denominators evidently blinds me to that fact.

And finally, on your comment "As to how the plastic stood up to high-pressure loads; frames don't stand up to high pressure or low pressure. They just serve as a platform for the parts that do stand up to high pressure." Hell, let's just make them out of fire-resistamt industrial cardboard then. It's even lighter than polymer and after all, it don't matter does it?

Thanks for taking the time to set me straight on all this, despite the fact that my opinions "hardly merit a response." There's a solution for both of us, and it's called the "ignore button." I use mine liberally and suggest that you do, too. I doubt that we'll be debating very much in the future.

Nanuk

December 17, 2006, 01:50 PM

When my agency tested pistols a couple of years ago, numerous guns were tested. All were 40 cal, and all passed. The XD was not selected because somewhere during the 10,000 round test the front sight fell off.The H&K P2000 was selected. The H&K had zero failures, zip, zero, nada. Issued with an LEM. I just got my P2000 last week, my USP/C has thousands of rounds and no problems. We use Federal, and Winchester 155 grn JHP. DHS went with several vendors due to the ammount of ammo we use. I have heard of KB's in glocks, H&K's, 1911's, and several rifles. I think there are several factors contributing, flaws in cases, flaws in the steel used to make firearms, pressure spikes, crude in the barrel/chamber. Like a traffic accident, each one should be investigated the same way. The only problem is gun manufacturers do not want a design flaw to become public knowledge, and will pay big money to ensure this.

hpg

December 17, 2006, 02:15 PM

Okay,

Everyone , just to be SAFE, Send me all your polymer framed guns. I will protect you from them.............:D .......hpg

dave421

December 17, 2006, 03:12 PM

The Body Bagger

December 17, 2006, 04:15 PM

What I find suspiciously funny is how so many KB's by Glock are from Law Enforcement. 50-75 KB's with 80 percent law enforcement.....why? I also find it odd that with so many civilians owning Glocks there aren't dozens of pictures like the XD. Glock out sells XD and has been around much longer so where are the pictures? Something stinks, lots of story's and few pictures.

Maybe because we shoot often? I can't help it if I recieve 200 practice rounds a month along with refilling my mags with duty Gold Dots, and that doesn't include our mandatory training days where we recieve another 200+ rounds.

JohnKSa

December 17, 2006, 05:00 PM

OK, then, it just must be the ammo, improper cleaning, bad reloads...anything but a design flaw by Glock.Wow, and this after I posted in BOTH of my last posts that "I am NOT saying that all Glock kB!s are ammunition related!" with underline and exclamation point for emphasis the last time.

The design LIMITATIONS of Glock pistols are well known, however, following the manufacturer's instructions will virtually eliminate the associated issues. Of COURSE, there are some defective Glock pistols out there--they're made by humans. However, if there were sufficient evidence to support the allegations of a design FLAW that resulted in blown up guns, you can bet that the lawsuits would have either forced Glock to make a change long ago or driven them into bankruptcy.What may be relevant is that one reload from that batch blew a 10mm Glock, and the rest were fired through Colt Deltas without incident. I guess that should tell us that the Colts were all faulty? My penchant for common denominators evidently blinds me to that fact.I explained to you why a "good" reload might cause a problem in a Glock but not in another firearm. Furthermore what I posted is certainly not some special technical insight known to me alone. Even sources as general as Wikipedia mention the repercussions of the larger chambers that Glock pistols are known for.They just serve as a platform for the parts that do stand up to high pressure." Hell, let's just make them out of fire-resistamt industrial cardboard then. It's even lighter than polymer and after all, it don't matter does it?Semi-auto pistol frames obviously have some structural design requirements that can not be met by cardboard but that are fulfilled quite well by a high grade polymer.

Finally, here's the disclaimer again--I'll even add some to it.

I am NOT saying that all Glock kB!s are the result of ammunition problem--that would be ridiculous--just as ridiculous as trying to assert that all Glock kB!s are the fault of the pistol or the manufacturer. Glocks have several WELL-KNOWN design limitations that can result in spectacular problems if they are ignored. And, like any other manufacturing concern, it's certain that Glock has put out a few defective pistols.

The problem with the Glock issue is that you have a good number of Glock owners who won't/can't admit that their pistol is anything but perfection and a good number of Glock haters who won't/can't admit that it's anything but junk. A little objectivity would be nice, but it's clearly too much to ask.

minsonngo

December 17, 2006, 05:21 PM

Okay,

Everyone , just to be SAFE, Send me all your polymer framed guns. I will protect you from them............. .......hpg

OMG... whats your address? I need get rid of all my polymer framed guns ASAP. I want to thank you on behalf of everybody for sacraficing yourself to save us all! :D

dave421

December 17, 2006, 05:40 PM

Maybe because we shoot often? I can't help it if I recieve 200 practice rounds a month along with refilling my mags with duty Gold Dots, and that doesn't include our mandatory training days where we recieve another 200+ rounds.

I would say that you (or your department) is NOT the norm. I know of a lot more cops that shoot only at quals or training and don't go to the range than ones that go to the range even monthly. There are a lot of cops that aren't gun people.

The problem with the Glock issue is that you have a good number of Glock owners who won't/can't admit that their pistol is anything but perfection and a good number of Glock haters who won't/can't admit that it's anything but junk. A little objectivity would be nice, but it's clearly too much to ask.

I would have to agree with that. Glock owners are the most infuriating gun owners to me. I really wish Glock would drop the whole "perfection" BS. The Glock haters are just as bad but at least they don't seem to be as numerous.

Sarge

December 17, 2006, 06:44 PM

Wow John, thanks for clearing all that up. I think.

*bing*

I'm known far and wide for being notoriously, incurably anti-Glock.

Not. (http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2006/03/straight-talk-on-glocks.html)

JohnKSa

December 17, 2006, 07:00 PM

I'm known far and wide for being notoriously, incurably anti-Glock.I don't recall saying you were... However I did take the time to look at the link you provide as evidence of not being anti-Glock and note that you specifically say, without qualification, "The KaBoom issue. It's real, and no it's not "the ammo"...".

That is false. You could qualify the remark: e.g. "The KaBoom issue. It's real, and no it's not always "the ammo"..." and bring it from the realm of opinion into the realm of fact, but as it stands in the link, without any qualification, it is not true.

Most kB!s are clearly ammo related, regardless of the gun involved. Therefore any statement completely absolving the ammunition has no basis in fact. It's been documented that Federal redesigned it's .40S&W case after several incidents--that, in and of itself, is clear and irrefutable evidence that at least some kB!s have been ammunition related. And even Dean Speir, noted Glock critic, admits that most kB! incidents are the result of ammunition problems.

I'll say it one more time.

Again, I am NOT saying that all Glock kB!s are ammunition related! That would be just as foolish as maintaining that all of them are gun related.

threegun

December 17, 2006, 07:02 PM

what is it with people and glocks? EVERY gun out there has had a kb. EVERY gun out there stands a higher chance of having a kb with reloads. there ARE more reports of glocks having a kb than anything else. Is it all BS? So what if it's mostly reloads? That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. If it's ONLY a reload problem, why aren't the other guns having the same problems? Do glock owners just suck at reloading whereas other gun owners have no problems? If it's NOT an issue then why is glock redesigning the chambers? Facts are facts, glocks are reliable guns that have more reports of kbs than other guns out there. Deal with it. It doesn't mean you own a crappy gun, it doesn't mean that you made a bad decision, it just means that instead of a 1% chance of having a kb, you have a 4% chance, whoopteedoo.

The only problem is that there isn't a higher chance of a KB in a Glock. Just a higher percentage of KB's being Glocks because they out sell everything else. More guns equal more KB's whatever the percentage.

Maybe because we shoot often? I can't help it if I receive 200 practice rounds a month along with refilling my mags with duty Gold Dots, and that doesn't include our mandatory training days where we receive another 200+ rounds.

Most LE I know either don't get practice ammo or don't use it. Many of my Glock shooting friends shoot regularly in practice for action pistol, IPSC, IDPA, and three gun. Many more civilians reload also.

My conclusion based on everything I have seen is that all handguns can KB. Glocks KB's are more prevalent because Glock pistols are more prevalent. If it was a chamber support issue then those guns with full chamber support wouldn't KB. Pretty easy to figure out.

threegun

December 17, 2006, 07:20 PM

Invssgt,

OK, then, it just must be the ammo, improper cleaning, bad reloads...anything but a design flaw by Glock. Glad we settled that. Anybody thirsty?

Design flaw???? Are you serious? Is firing out of battery a design flaw? Most do. If chamber support was the culprit XD's and H&K's wouldn't KB. To easy to blame the gun as you have done. I say prove it is the gun or quit saying its a design flaw. Show me an independant, impartial investigation that says it was a design flaw. Get real man you are just giving your bias opinion and then calling others kollaid drinkers for giving their bias opinion.