Long Range Varmint

[longshank]

I have a Cooper 204, RRA 223 for p-dogs and coyotes. However, I have read mixed reports of how well these perform under windy conditions.

My question is as follows. What is my next purchase? I have read a lot of favorable comments about 243 and 308 as bucking the wind quite well. I also want the next rifle to double as a deer rifle, so either of the aforementioned possibilities would work in that regard. Another possibility may be a 25-06 though I don't see that one mentioned much as a varmint rifle. I "may" reload at some point in the future but want the option of buying off the shelf ammo if I need it. Any help would be appreciated.

As a side, do muzzle brakes really help on muzzle jump? I am not recoil sensitive as I shoot skeet and sporting clays almost every weekend. I just want to reduce muzzle jump so I can watch my shots, particularly on the p-dogs. That is one major reason for buying the 204.

[Scorch]

Good questions.

Yes, 204 and 223 will drift in the wind, 223 more than the 204. Yes, a 243 or 308 will drift less in the wind, but they kick more, and after a few hundred times of being nudged by your rifle it becomes tedious or painful.

You can
1- buy a medium-barreled rifle for deer hunting, but it will heat up fast when shooting prairie dogs.
2- buy a heavy-barreled rifle for p-dog hunting, but it will be heavy to carry for deer hunting.

With either a 243 or a 308, the likelihood of a deer-weight rifle staying still so you can watch impact is very slim.

The reason you don't see 25-06 mentioned very often in the context of varminting is that it is too much for high-volume varmint shooting. Muzzle blast will make you woozy after a while. Don't get me wrong, it is a fine, flat shooting, accurate round. It's just too much for high volume varmint shooting.

I generally advise against muzzle brakes for rifles where you will be in the same county as them when they go off, especially if you will be laying on the ground and catching redirected muzzle blast at close range. Also, you will get lonely, as all your friends will move away so they don't get the muzzle blast every time you shoot. There are a few brakes that redirect the gases forward and keep the noise level down some.

[Bill T]

http://img279.imageshack.us/img279/3369/remington700250612at.th.jpg (http://img279.imageshack.us/my.php?image=remington700250612at.jpg) http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/2963/file0144jr3.th.jpg (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file0144jr3.jpg)

This is my Remington 700 Heavy Barrel Varmint in .25-06. It really vaporizes chucks with the 117 gr. Sierra Boat Tail. Bill T.

[nico]

The Remington 700p ltr (http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700pltr.htm) seems like one of the best options for a factory deer/varmint rifle. At 7.5lbs, it's only half a lb heavier than my sporter-weight 22" barrel ruger (which also has a much lighter stock), but with a much heavier 20" barrel. From what I've read, it should be capable of at least 3/4MOA with good ammo. iirc, they're around $800.

If you don't want to sacrifice the muzzle velocity of a 20" barrel and don't mind the weight, the Savage 12fvss (http://savagearms.com/12fvss.htm) is 8.75lbs with a 26" fluted barrel. I think they generally go for a little more than $500, but once you put a good stock on it you haven't saved that much over the 700.

[Buckythebrewer]

There is a catch to scorch's comments.A 223 ar15 loaded with 77-80's in 1-8,1-7 twist can do better than a 308 in the m1a and m14.The main reason I say this is because those 2 rifles have limitations in there operating rods under higher pressures(crunch!) needed to drive the longer/heavier bullets that are more balistically efficient than the 77-80gr 223..So on its best day a 308 in a bolt gun can do far better because(but you have added recoil and more work on a bench to keep them under control) it can use the longer/heavier high BC bullets needed to out perform the HIGH BC 223 bullets,but thats only from a bolt gun in most cases..Most ar15's are more capable than the m1a and m14's:eek: If they are setup right.Im talking 600+ and sometimes to 1000yrds..I am talking accuracy only,and Im sure the 308 is more capable knockdown because of the endless bullet selection and weights, and types..

As far as long range accuracy you will see the ar15's in 223 being the most accurate and capable around with the right bullet+load/barrel combo..well maybe there is something better you can get in other custom ar15 calibers (6.5 grendel maybe?:))

My advice get another ar15 24" 1-8 twist, get a heavy stainless bull barrel in 223,,fill the stock up with lead or whatever and trust me you will have a rifle that doesn't move much(my ar15 weighs 14.5 dry:))..

muzzle brakes help alot for sure when it comes to recoil and jump,Sometimes they can HURT precision shooting ,but also they can help sometimes too.

[Double Naught Spy]

On muzzle brakes, if you have something like a 24" varmit barrel on an AR15 (.223) and are shooting from a bipod or bags, there is very little recoil. If you are shooting from a lighter gun, say a 16" barrel, you can get a goodly amount of muzzle jump and there a brake makes a big difference.

[oldbillthundercheif]

I think the man said he was not "recoil sensitive".

The 25-06 is a real nice round and will obliterate varmints and horned-beasts alike. I see no problem with it...

He also said he wanted the gun to double as a deer rifle and you guys are recommending ARs? I like the black rifle as much as anyone, but it would not be my first choice for medium-sized game. Unless, of course, you live in an area with lots of smaller deer who have a habit of attacking hunters guerilla-warfare style. In that case, a sustained fire-screen weapon like the AR or AK would be great.

You can't go wrong with .308, though. That's probably what I would go with, but pick what you like. As for muzzle brakes... they make for a very loud rifle and you will still probably not see your round impact unless you are shooting at something very far off.

[FirstFreedom]

I'd stick with .243 Win, .257 roberts, 6.5x55mm, .25-06, 7mm-08, or .308, for a rifle doubling as both a long-range varminter and deer gun. .243, 7mm-08, and .308 will have the largest selection of bullets at both ends of the spectrum, and .308 is a caliber that a precision rifle for a good price can be be found chambered in. Probably the best choice is a 6mm (.243 or 6mm Rem) - you can find 55, 60, 65, 70, 85, and 80 grain loads for varmints, and 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, and 107s for deer.

[44 AMP]

Has been given, there are lots of medium calibers that will do double duty without serious drawbacks. The .308 is rather heavy for varmints, and some rifles don't do their best with the lighter .30 cal bullets. Fine deer round though. I have used .308 with 110gr and 125gr bullets on woodchucks, and it did a fine job, but I stopped using it when I got a .22-250.

The .25-06 is hard to beat, but like one fella said, there is considerable muzzle blast. The .243 is a fine compromise as well.

On the subject of muzzle brakes, most designs vent gas back, and to the sides, reducing recoil. This also has the effect of increasing the effects of the blast for anyone not directly behind the rifle.

There is one consideration about muzzle brakes not mentioned, that when shooting prone, the brake lessens the amount of dust kicked up by the blast, directly in front of the rifle. There is, of course, still a lot off to the sides...
If you shoot prone in dry/dusty conditions, this could be an important consideration.

[joshua]

Although a 25/06 can be considered a varmint gun I'd be reluctant to shoot pdogs all day with it. That is abou the same for the 308, 7mm-08. The 243 is usually a lot of gun for varmints, but it's very good for those long range shots past 400 yards. It will beat the 22-250 in the long range varmint category, but it still a bit much for an all day of shooting. I already own a 22-250 and a 223 for varmint shooting. I have a 308 and I don't plan on using that for varmints at all. My 270 Win will probably be better than the 308 for flat trajectory and speed with 90 grain bullets. If you really must have a varmint rifle that will double as a deer gun I'd advise the 260 Rem. The only draw back is nobody makes it in a varmint rifle set up. I wish Savage would chamber their Long Range Precision in 260Rem. Kind of a selfish post eh? :D josh

[Picher]

If you handload, consider mild loads in a .243, using 85 grain bullets. Also, consider adding weight to the rifle for varmint hunting. I have a lead insert for my magazine that has a bullet tray in the top. It added a little over a pound and reduced felt recoil. Other lead weights can be added to a stock through a large hole in the buttstock. They can all be set up to be removed for deer hunting. A new super recoil pad can also make shooting more pleasant.

You can have your cake and eat it too!

Picher

[longshank]

Thanks guys for all the feedback. Like I said, this will not be my primary varmint gun rather an alternative long range shooter for those really windy days. As far as the comment on shooting prone, most of my p-dog hunting will be in the panhandle area of Texas. We have lots of little crawly things called rattlesnakes, so I almost always shoot from a bench or table. Thanks again.

[hoytinak]

I used to use a .270 around north TX (Amarillo area), worked great for p-dogs, plus not a bad little round for whitetail.

[T-Mac]

I guess the question is....what kind of varmints? And how many?
Are going to shoot lots of targets or gophers..or a few coyotes?
Many good opinions and good information posted in this thread.

For your next gun, you named some good options.
Which one turns your crank?

I love my old .22-250.(Rem 788...it is so NOT fussy)
Personally, I'd go with a 6mm before .243. (In fact, I did - a Rem VLS)
And, every red blooded American shooter deserves a sweet shooting 25-06. (Mine is a BDL)

More guns = More fun ;)

[Art Eatman]

If the wind is fairly steady, it's much less of a problem. My only prairie dog shoot, so far, was in a mostly-15mph wind, with gusting to maybe 20. I was using a .223.

Around 200 yards, it seemed, I'd just hold on the upwind edge of the critter. Maybe a tad of daylight. Out where I was holding some 6" over, for distance, I'd hold 3" to 4" upwind.

Just a learning experience, is all. There were enough cooperative critters around that I never worried about distance, really. I did make one straight-downwind shot with a .220 Swift, holding at least 6" high. Fair distance, seemed like.

Art