Can any other 9mm hold a candle to the Sig P210?

[FirstFreedom]

Such as the S&W Perf. Ctr. 952, accuracy-wise and in other respects? The prices are right up there, or in the case of Korth, past there....

[Jim Watson]

Accuracy, maybe a S&W PPC9.
Otherwise, like as a sidearm or IDPA or IPSC competition gun, it is not competitive. The thumb safety is a long reach, the heel magazine catch (in all but the most expensive variant) is stiff and awkward, and the magazines are tight in the well. A magazine disconnect is inconvenient.

[croyance]

Lugers with their fixed barrel are said to be extremely accurate. Good luck seeing through the sights though.

[Ichiro]

From what I've read, no.

[357 Plato]

If we are talking ?standard? i.e. not heavily modified 1911s I think the P210 is the most accurate handgun out there.

According to an article I?ve read, the Swiss tested the M47 (P210): They mixed parts from several guns and put them back together. If they grouped any larger than a pack of cigarettes at 50 meters, it was a reject.

Again according to this article the P1900 (Swiss Parabellum in 7.65) would make even smaller groups.

I don?t know how much of this is BS. I?ve shot both and compared them to my Peters Stahl. I?m not good enough with any pistol to duplicate the Swiss findings.:D

In the real world the Parabellum very hard to shoot accurately. Trigger and sights need a lot of work to make this pistol in to a target shooter.

The P210 is way better to shoot. Only thing is that it makes a weird ?jump? when fired. It is hard to explain.

My Peters Stahl (1911 style 9mm) is much easier to shoot than both of these guns. It has very low felt recoil that makes it very pleasant to shoot.

But at the end of the day you might get a marginally more accurate gun in the P210. But you need to practise more to reach the full potential in this fine gun.

One thing you need to know: The P210 is NOT made for +P+ ammo. It is designed for subsonic ammo. If you use a lot of hot ammo you might end up with a cracked frame. And last: You do not want the military version you want the target version.

[Lloyd Smale]

my sti trojan 9mm outshoots my 952 and cost less to boot. Its also alot more reliable and is a hell of alot less finiky when it comes to ammo choises and bullet profiles.

[ddskehan]

the 210 is a great gun. So great that you don't want to screw the finish up by shooting. Mine has been a safe queen for 10 years for me, and 50 more with the first owner. The european mag release does leave me wanting more thou. Mine has been the most accurate pistol i've ever owned. My great grandkids will love it.

[jtb1967]

My Hi Point 9mm is a real tackdriver! Just kidding :D

[281 Quad Cam]

When I look at the design of a CZ-75, I see a Sig P210.

Schematics... CZ-75 first, than P210.
http://www.mek-schuetzen.de/Blueprints/cz_75-2.gif
http://www.mek-schuetzen.de/Blueprints/sig-p210-pic.jpg

Both have internal frame rails.
Both have a barrel with a kidney-bean cam.
Both have kidney-cams riding on the slide-stop-pin.
Both have 2 locking lugs which lock into the slide (like a 1911)

Their trigger groups look very similar, the sear and hammer, etc.
Even their extractors look like basically the same thing.

Is it possible that a modified, slightly different, or polished surfaces CZ-75 could be as accurate as the P210?

[kymasabe]

I don't know about a CZ-75...but I shot a CZ-85 Combat that was scary-accurate and can be tuned for really great performance and feel.
Do I own one though? Nope, bought a SIG P226 instead.

[JoeHatley]

I don't own a 210, but I have shot one a few times. I don't like the mag release, so when it came time to buy my own target 9mm, I went with the S&W.

Rapid Fire.
http://www.iowatelecom.net/~hatley/952_rf.jpg

I've not had an regrets with my decision.

Joe

[hknut]

NO, that is one accurate firearm!

[TexasCop]

I always thought the p7m8 was one accurate gun, along with the benelli P018, it looks a lot like the p210 and the one I've shot was extremely accurate.

Edit to correct BENELLI, not Bernadelli...

[stephen426]

If you are talking about factory gun to factory gun, I believe that the Sig P210 is the most accurate gun out there. As good as it is, you can get custom guns to match it. That would not be comparing apples to apples though. The Swiss have a well deserved reputation for precision and they pride themselves on their old world craftsmanship.

[Kermit]

Maybe it would really depend on the user & the mission. So, my answer would be...maybe

[bg226]

Sphinx 3000

[Magyar]

Unless you're talking about the Sig 210-2 or -4, the others don't count...Personally, all the "gushing" over Sigs & CZ's make me extremely nauseous as if they are the only pistols worth talking about...
Let's see, according to Col. Cooper...Good trigger, Good Sights, Ultimate Reliability are all you need for the "ultimate pistol".
The Asian Assassin, currently the official sidearm of the R.O.K. fits my needs for 1/2 the price, and what a "trigger".
P.S. Why isn't the Sig the sidearm of our military forces? They came in 2nd because of a claim of price undercutting....
http://i8.tinypic.com/24vus1y.jpg

[larvatus]

One thing you need to know: The P210 is NOT made for +P+ ammo. It is designed for subsonic ammo. If you use a lot of hot ammo you might end up with a cracked frame.The Swiss Army pistol ammunition is the 124gr. FMJ 9x19mm Pistolen Patrone 41, made by RUAG. It is a high-pressure combat round, at least equal in its chamber pressure, muzzle velocity, and recoil impulse to SAAMI-spec rounds of similar bullet weights. Since there is no SAAMI specification for 9mm +P+ loads, the claim that something or other "is NOT made for +P+ ammo" is quite meaningless.

As described here (http://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html), starting in 1965, from serial number P 57001 onwards, the P210 slide was hardened in excess of the original military specification to resist wear. At the same time, its frame was strengthened to resist cracking reported by Swedish shooters. Coincidentally, the Swedish shooting community enjoys access to hot Bofors M39B 9x19mm ammunition, banned from import to the U.S. owing to its unmatched capacity for penetrating body armor. Later on, frame cracking traced to faulty machining tolerances was observed in a batch of commercial pistols numbered in the early 70 thousands. Lastly, as a cost-cutting measure, starting sporadically at SN range of P300001 onwards, the P210 manufacturing techniques substituted frames and slides CNC-machined out of steel billet for frames and slides milled out of steel forgings. Numerous Swiss shooters reported a decline in quality starting around the SN range of P311XXX onwards. The CNC-machined parts appear to be softer and less durable than the parts milled out of forgings.

[larvatus]

If you are talking about factory gun to factory gun, I believe that the Sig P210 is the most accurate gun out there. As good as it is, you can get custom guns to match it. That would not be comparing apples to apples though.Well said. Long-range accuracy of the P210 is excelled only by the Swiss Luger and unequalled by any service handgun of comparable reliability. It is possible to build a M1911 pattern pistol that shoots tighter than 50mm six-round groups at 50m. However, unlike the P210, it would no longer be suitable as a service arm. In fact, Swiss army acceptance tests rejected guns that shot too accurately, for similar reasons.

[larvatus]

When I look at the design of a CZ-75, I see a Sig P210.One crucial difference is the lack of a barrel bed stopping the recoil cycle in the CZ-75. Hence its tendency to break slide pins.

[radom]

I dont know about a barrel bed but the CZ guns use the exact same system of any Browning design gun with the barrel stopping by the slide stop pin.
On I have never have had the pleasue to shoot is the Walther P-88, Many experts claim that they are up with the 210 on accuracy. Not a low cost easy to find gun though. But I guess the same goes for a 210 also.

[larvatus]

I dont know about a barrel bed but the CZ guns use the exact same system of any Browning design gun with the barrel stopping by the slide stop pin.Look closer. The M1911, the FN GP35, and the SIG P210 all stop the recoil cycle by the lower barrel lug and/or the lower rear edges of the breech end of the barrel coming to rest in a receptacle cut into the frame. Unlike the CZ-75, these pistols do not significantly stress the slide stop pin in the recoil cycle. For the M1911, this feature is illustrated here (http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf). The P210 layout is shown here (http://www.gunmanuals.ch/source02b/Pistole_49_Anleitung_fuer_den_Waffenmechaniker.pdf).

[Pinky Carruthers]

Walther P88 is an excellent and very accurate pistol.

[918v]

My P226 Sport Stock is just as accurate and more comfortable to shoot.

[larvatus]

My P226 Sport Stock is just as accurate and more comfortable to shoot.Sauer pistols are test fired at 25 meters with groups similar to those delivered by the Neuhausen guns at twice that range. Published Visier tests confirm this disparity.

[918v]

My P226 Sport Stock was built with the same tight clearances as a P210. It shoots half inch groups at 15 yards from a sandbag rest on a regular basis. The gun, therefore, matches the accuracy of a P210.

A regular P226 is not as tight, and therefore slightly less accurate. It shoots about an inch at 15 yards with match ammo.

[357 Plato]

Larvatus: You are probably right about the Swiss army ammo.

You mention the Swedish B39b ammo. The Swedish army calculated the service life of their pistols to about 5000 rounds with that ammo (they did not use SIGs ? I would say stronger guns than SIGs). From a military point of view this is acceptable. It meant that they could keep things simple for the troops in that they only had one 9mm round for all their pistols and submachine guns. And 5000 rounds are more than you need if you go to war with a pistol.

The Danish army used hot ammo too in their M47s (P210). The Danish army, like the Swedish army, wanted only one 9mm round for both pistol (Sigs) and submachine gun. I have tried that ammo in my Peters Stahl (1911 frame with a heavy 6? slide). All I can tell you is that I will not use more of that ammo.

If I had a SIG P210 I would want it to last a bit longer than 5000 rounds. I will not argue with you whether the SIG is ?designed? for hot ammo or not. I will modify my statement: It will not survive for long with hot ammo.

A member of my shooting club has a SIG. He claims to have put more than 70.000 rounds thru it over a period of 40 years ? no cracks, no repairs. He never uses hot ammo in his SIG.

I would say that a SIG is durable and accurate.

[larvatus]

My P226 Sport Stock was built with the same tight clearances as a P210. It shoots half inch groups at 15 yards from a sandbag rest on a regular basis. The gun, therefore, matches the accuracy of a P210.Neither the respective factory test targets nor independent tests confirm this assessment. See e.g. the Visier special issue no. 17, test firing among others, SIG P210-6 and SIG-Sauer P226 Sport SL. Unfortunately, the detailed results are omitted from the summary of 9mm handgun ratings posted online (http://www.visier.de/bilder/excel/pistolenneunpara.htm). But note that the Neuhausen is rated above the Sauer Sport even after being devalued to account for its much higher price.

It is worth noting that firearm accuracy is not linear. Half inch groups at 15 yards do not translate into two inch groups at 60 yards. Furthermore, as noted earlier, the P210 is the only service-class pistol that delivers match class accuracy at 50 meters. Therefore its proper comparison is with the standard P226 model, not with the purpose-built target gun that differs from the standard configuration in its layout and operating clearances.

[357 Plato]

By the way: If we have to be anal about the right terms:

+P Pressure: greater than 100% of SAAMI specs, less than 110%. Official designation from SAAMI
+P+ Pressure: greater than 110% of SAAMI specs. Not officially part of SAAMI specifications.

Educate me if I?m wrong. But I think that most people understand +P+ without a ?lecture?.

[918v]

The P210 ceased to be a service weapon long ago.

FYI, my first attempt at 50 yard shooting produced a 2.5" group. This is not from a machine rest.

If the gun has zero clearance between the frame and the slide, and between the barrel and the slide, it will shoot well. Be it a P210, P226 SL, or an occasional Ruger P90, it is the repeatable return to battery that delivers this accuracy. There is nothing special about the P210 other than the tight clearances.

[larvatus]

The P210 ceased to be a service weapon long ago.The P49 pistols are still in service with the Swiss officers to whom they were issued prior to 1975. The P210 also remains in service with the Royal Danish J?gerkorpset (JGK) and Fr?mandskorpset (FKP) Special Forces.If the gun has zero clearance between the frame and the slide, and between the barrel and the slide, it will shoot well. Be it a P210, P226 SL, or an occasional Ruger P90, it is the repeatable return to battery that delivers this accuracy. There is nothing special about the P210 other than the tight clearances.No semiautomatic action can operate with zero clearance. The military specification P49 tends to exhibit much more slide to frame play than a typical Les Baer target pistol. The critical factor is the consistency of barrel alignment in battery. Besides, the trick is not only to place six shots into a 50mm X-ring at 50 meters, but to do so reliably enough to pass the service requirements, which in the instant matter include random interchange of parts between several different pistols without any loss of accuracy or function. By contrast, the M1911 pattern pistols built to deliver similar accuracy, all have their parts fitted together on an individual basis.

[larvatus]

If we have to be anal about the right terms:

+P Pressure: greater than 100% of SAAMI specs, less than 110%. Official designation from SAAMI
+P+ Pressure: greater than 110% of SAAMI specs. Not officially part of SAAMI specifications.SAAMI specs for 9x19 mm Parabellum are up to 35,000 psi for standard pressure and up to 38,500 psi for +P. Whereas Federal is known to load its standard 9mm to an average pressure of about 32,000 psi, 9mm +P to about 35,000 psi, and 9mm +P+ to about 37,000 psi. Go figure.

[918v]

The P210 is no longer a service piece. Just because some old timers still carry P210's does not change that fact, but that is neither here nor there.

Similarly, zero clearance, or extemely minimal near zero clearance, can be accomplished in a semi-auto design. My gun has no vertical or horizontal play between the frame and the slide IN OR OUT of battery. The only way I can induce play is by removing every trace of lubricant from the rails. Only then will I feel the slightest hint of play. This is my only P226 Sport Stock, and I really cannot claim that every Sport Stock is as tight as mine, but how do you know that the P226 Sport Stock does not share the same interchangability of parts? For all we know, that gun may have one dedicated Sig employee cranking out Sport Stocks like they were all his, with alien technology. There's a reason why they cost 50% more than a production P-226.

The original question was can any other 9mm hold a candle to the P210. The P226 Sport Stock certainly can.

[larvatus]

Similarly, zero clearance, or extemely minimal near zero clearance, can be accomplished in a semi-auto design. My gun has no vertical or horizontal play between the frame and the slide IN OR OUT of battery. The only way I can induce play is by removing every trace of lubricant from the rails. Only then will I feel the slightest hint of play.Any transverse play means clearance. In fact, any longitudinal movement means clearance.The original question was can any other 9mm hold a candle to the P210. The P226 Sport Stock certainly can.Not according to factory test targets supplied with these pistols or the previously referenced tests conducted by Visier. Pop quiz: at what range does Sauer test fire its pistols?

[918v]

It depends. Mine was fired at 25, but the old West German P226's were fired at 15.

The more important question is whether they are fired with dedicated ammo, as is the P210. Feed your P210 some WWB 115gr. crap and see if you get the same group.

[larvatus]

It depends. Mine was fired at 25, but the old West German P226's were fired at 15.I am sure that you are aware that every P210 is test fired at 50 meters.The more important question is whether they are fired with dedicated ammo, as is the P210. Feed your P210 some WWB 115gr. crap and see if you get the same group.No doubt it wouldn't. But that is not how we address the issue of comparing mechanical accuracy between two guns. In this regard, the P210 comes out ahead of every Sauer pistol ever made. As for practical accuracy, are you claiming that the double action trigger of any Sauer pistol feels as good as the single action trigger of the P210?

[918v]

The Sport Stock trigger is superb. Mine compares to a S&W revolver with a trigger job. The parts show signs of stoning, so the lockwork was definitely hand fitted.

Mechanical accuracy must be compared with dedicated ammo. You cannot compare two different designs with the same lot of ammo. That would not be a valid comparison. You must use the best ammo for each design and test multiple samples. Then you compare average groups.

While both pistols may offer the same degree of barrel lockup relative to the frame and sights, the P210 may prefer lot A and the P226 may prefer lot B. The two pistols are night and day different, and cannot be expected to shoot the same with the exact same ammo.

BTW, did Visier compare the Sport Stock (AKA SL Express) with the fat barrel and the adjustable sights or the SL with the skinny barrel?

[357 Plato]

Larvatus: If you wanted to buy a P210-5 would you stay away from SN above P300001?

The one I am looking at has a SN P329xxx. It is stamped P210 and not P210-5. It is not a heavy frame.

[larvatus]

The Sport Stock trigger is superb. Mine compares to a S&W revolver with a trigger job. The parts show signs of stoning, so the lockwork was definitely hand fitted.Have you compared the Sport Stock trigger to that of a M1911 or a P210, e.g. as regards the trigger reset? There is a reason why Sauer ditched the DA mechanism in constructing dedicated target pistols such as the X-Five.While both pistols may offer the same degree of barrel lockup relative to the frame and sights, the P210 may prefer lot A and the P226 may prefer lot B. The two pistols are night and day different, and cannot be expected to shoot the same with the exact same ammo.No doubt. But the fact remains that the factory test targets shot with dedicated ammo show the groups of Sauer pistols at 25 meters to be similar to those delivered by the Neuhausen pistols at 50 meters.BTW, did Visier compare the Sport Stock (AKA SL Express) with the fat barrel and the adjustable sights or the SL with the skinny barrel?Sorry, I don't have the issue before me.

[larvatus]

If you wanted to buy a P210-5 would you stay away from SN above P300001?Some pistols in the early 300XXX series still used the forged components. I have one numbered in the first thousand that is in every way equal to the older guns. The distinguishing feature of a forged frame is the lack of the ridge running under the frame rail and above the safety lever. Incidentally, the Kessler auction (http://www.kesslerauktionen.ch/) of 26 August 2006 features as its lot 3983 a SIG P210-5 Target chambered in 9mm Para, SN P97431, with walnut stocks, box and papers, condition 1, estimated at CHF 700 / 900 or EUR 450 / 580.

[918v]

But are you sure about the dedicated ammo? I think the P226 is tested with common crap. My test target shows a 1.25" group which I can easily replicate with WWB 147gr. ammo. I don't think a P210 shoots 1.25" at 50 yards. It may be that the P210 gets good ammo, while the P226 does not.

The reset is long, but I can live with it.

[larvatus]

But are you sure about the dedicated ammo? I think the P226 is tested with common crap. My test target shows a 1.25" group which I can easily replicate with WWB 147gr. ammo. I don't think a P210 shoots 1.25" at 50 yards. It may be that the P210 gets good ammo, while the P226 does not.As described above, every P210 is test fired with PP41. That is what passes for common crap in Switzerland. The test group has to be under 50mm (about 2") at 50 meters (about 55 yards). In most cases, six shots fit well within a 35mm circle. On the earlier pistols, this performance was complemented by drop fit of all parts, including barrels and slides. Most of the P300XXX series pistols seem to have abandoned this practice.

Incidentally, good quality 147gr ammo can perform better in the P210 than the lighter and faster kind with which it is tested at the factory. Here (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_47/ai_75287331/print) is a commendably thorough and thoughtful magazine test. Curiously enough, Federal GM Match 124 gr. FMJ turns in by far the worst performance of the lot.The reset is long, but I can live with it.As you acknowledged earlier, the original question was whether or not any other 9mm can hold a candle to the P210. You answered that the P226 Sport Stock certainly can. Your response now makes clear that you are allowing for subjective compromises in evaluating the Sauer pistol. No such allowance was originally meant.

[918v]

If the P210 had a double action trigger, it too would have a long reset :D

[larvatus]

If the P210 had a double action trigger, it too would have a long reset :DAs Vladimir Putin put it (http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/1093/putin-on-iran), in not so many words, Az di bobe volt gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde. (http://community.livejournal.com/ru_translate/6802559.html?thread=51577983#t51577983)

[918v]

Then don't talk about my longer reset when you lack a double action trigger. Everything is a compromise.

[larvatus]

Then don't talk about my longer reset when you lack a double action trigger.A handicap worsted only by my posterior anatomy being limited to two buttocks (http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/3bums.htm).Everything is a compromise.This from the man who claims (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2051209&postcount=30) to be a perfectionist and reporting from that perspective?

[schmeky]

I wonder how accurate do you need to be? If 1/2" groups at 25 yards are what you want, that's fine. I own a Benelli B-76 9mm that is extremely accurate. It is a fixed barrel semi-auto, therefore it's like shooting a single shot pistol.

These can be found used (no longer in production) and most times at a shooting range people have no who idea who made these unique looking pistols. Comparable to a Sig? No. But the B-76 is a great shooting pistol nonetheless.

[larvatus]

I wonder how accurate do you need to be?As I explained elsewhere (http://www.google.com/search?q=larvatus+p210), the Swiss military specification for the P49 was that the service pistol had to be equally usable unmodified for competitions at 50 meters as its predecessor, the Swiss Parabellum 06/29, chambered in 7.65x21.5mm. The target was a Swiss C50 at a distance of 50m (54.68 yards), with the 10 ring a disk of 5 centimeters, just under 2" in diameter. Hence the P210 test targets. The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit (http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/oct97shootbetter.html) uses highly modified Beretta M9 pistols that shoot 0.875" groups at 50 yards with factory match ammo. But measuring a service sidearm against a purpose-made target pistol is not a fair comparison.

[918v]

OK,

I wasn't going to say this, but my S&W Performance Center 5906 is superior to your P210 because it has the shortest reset. So there!

[larvatus]

I wasn't going to say this, but my S&W Performance Center 5906 is superior to your P210 because it has the shortest reset.Funny, I could have sworn that I just saw you make a contradictory claim:If the P210 had a double action trigger, it too would have a long reset :DDoesn't your S&W PC 5906 have a double action trigger?

At any rate, the answer to the original question stands in the negative. The SIG P210 is the pinnacle of refinement attained through international competition for the development of the Browning tilting barrel, short-recoil semiautomatic handgun action. Think of it as the sidearm counterpart of the Mauser 1898 bolt action rifle and the Winchester M12 slide action shotgun. (For a variety of reasons, no comparable benchmark design has emerged in the development of self-loading long arms.) As with these iconic firearms, it is possible to make them a lot cheaper, but not a whit better. With over 300,000 Neuhausen pistols in circulation, no self-respecting pistolero can be excused from owning one.

[918v]

I guess you are too enamored by your P210 to see the humor. The Trigger reset does not make the gun, that was the point.

Your P210 is not the pinnacle of refinement. The P226 is. Here are the P210's faults:

Poor ergonomics- Two words "Hammer Bite!"

Low capacity- Lacks a double stack magazine.

Slow to reload- European mag release

Cannot be deployed safely and quickly- the safety is in the worst possible position and requires fumbling to disengage.

Crappy sights- P210's with adjustable sights are crappy. Sig should have spent more time in the design room.


The P226 Sport Stock, on the other hand, can be safely carried and deployed without disengaging any safeties, does not bite the shooter, can be quickly reloaded with 20 round magazines, has a huge trigger guard that tolerates gloved hands, has huge slide serrations that allow easy manipulation of the slide in inclement field conditions, and has easy to acquire and robust adjustable sights.

So it has a long reset! So what?

[Capp35]

I hate to open up the ole history books, but....... :D

I have an old 9mm Benelli B-76 with a fixed barrel, that out shoots my Sig anytime.

[larvatus]

Here are the P210's faults:This from the man who claimed: Everything is a compromise.Less so to anyone willing to educate himself about the subject of his concern. As clearly narrated and illustrated in SIG handgun history books by Vetter and Doebeli, all Sauer P22x series handguns are designed and manufactured as grossly cheapened derivatives of the Neuhausen P210. The belated upgrade of the Sport Stock series, from alloy and stampings, to solid steel construction, does nothing to remedy the shoddy expedients of music wire springs and roll pins, infamous amongst armorers worldwide as the bane of SIG-Sauer pistols. None of that should stop you from relishing your chubby crunchenticker. But it suffices to purge the hogwash dredging it up as if it were the ne plus ultra of pistolcraft. It is nothing of the sort.

[larvatus]

I have an old 9mm Benelli B-76 with a fixed barrel, that out shoots my Sig anytime.Is that a real SIG or a SIG-Sauer?

[Capp35]

Sorry, your right.
P228

But that Benneli still is the most accurate centerfire pistol, that I have ever shot at 7-15 yards.

[croyance]

It is at longer ranges that you can really differentiate.

[Capp35]

Don't normally shoot pass 15 yards. (in fact the indoor ranges I shoot at are only 15 yards) I own guns for defense, if its further than that, its not normally defense.

Don't plan on a sniper war. :p

[Socrates]

Boy. You guys pay 2500 dollars for a 9 mm, and the best you can do is 2 inches at 55 yards? For that kind of money, Hamiltion Bowen, Jack Huntington, John Linebaugh, Dustin too, can or will build you a custom revolver, in a real caliber, that will shoot 2" at 100 yards.

I've got 3 guns, two from Huntington, one from Linebaugh, in 500 Maximum, and 475 Linebaugh that will do that if you will. The 475 is very tight chambered, match grade barrel, and at 50 yards, with the right loads off a rest, will cloverleaf, or better, everytime. The 45/454 Seville will likewise shoot under 3" at 100 yards.

You want accuracy, buy a Freedom Arms, pretty much any caliber, but their silohuette guns in particular, and get a trigger job, and, you'll drive tacks compared to these guns.
Dan Wesson's, too.

The only 9mm that has much intrest for me is the Kimber 9mm 1911. I suspect with proper tuning, it could be just as accurate as the Sig 210, for half the cost.

I'll have to do some research on the Benelli.

S

[918v]

It is nothing of the sort.

Still, it is more ergonomic, has better sights, is more suitable for combat, resists rust better, than your ancient pistol that is good for nothing than occasional target practice between trips to the emergency room.

Really, Michael, you need to accept the fact that firearms have evolved beyond the Luger and the Broom Handle Mauser, and nobody believes the BS written in Visier or Guns and Ammo.

[mikel_holt]

if overpriced is part of the equation...definately not.

[larvatus]

Boy. You guys pay 2500 dollars for a 9 mm, and the best you can do is 2 inches at 55 yards?Our subject is 9mm handguns. There are places where you can choose to talk about whatever interests you. This is not one of them.

[croyance]

Is it really fair to call the Sig210 a service pistol?
Given the price and workmanship, it wasn't exactly cost competative with the other service pistols of the time. Nor to be made in the same volumes.
For the money, you could get Les Baer or Wilson Combat to make some highly accurate guns you could issue to your private security force.
Yes, if you hear about a Generalissimo that has only Les Baers as the service sidearm of their elite guards, its me.
For that matter, police and militaries could issue target guns, but choose not to. Cost and realistic expectations of what the rank and file can do are reasons.

[larvatus]

It is nothing of the sort.Still, it is more ergonomic, has better sights, is more suitable for combat, resists rust better, than your ancient pistol that is good for nothing than occasional target practice between trips to the emergency room.The main attribute of Sauer pistols that you continue to gainsay, is their cheapness. In the context of this discussion, it is dispositive. The P210 stands out as the last service handgun made without regard for cost. That is the crucial factor in answering the original question in the negative.

[larvatus]

Is it really fair to call the Sig210 a service pistol?That is what it is. Given the price and workmanship, it wasn't exactly cost competative with the other service pistols of the time.Nor was it meant to be. For some, not being made by the lowest bidder is a desirable attribute. Nor to be made in the same volumes.At over 300,000 specimens produced, the volumes are similar to other European sidearms of its time.

[Socrates]

This thread is about worthless. If you really care about spending 2500-3000 dollars to justify your purchase of 210,
it reminds me of the line from an excellent movie:

'No one cares but a few very foolish, rich people."

It's a combat round, who gives a flying f.... how accurate your
over priced service pistol is?

The 9mm is inherently INACCURATE. IT SUCKS.
WHO WOULD WANT A PISTOL THAT TRYS TO TURN A SOWS EAR INTO A SILK PURSE?

s

[larvatus]

It's a combat round, who gives a flying f.... how accurate your
over priced service pistol is?Anybody who depends on carrying his pistol for self-defense. Admittedly, that is not a legal option for hoi polloi in most of the Old World.The 9mm is inherently INACCURATE. IT SUCKS.As stated above, David Sams (http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/oct97shootbetter.html) gets just over 1.5 minutes of angle from the Beretta M9 service handgun chambered in 9mm. That performance is similar to the accuracy obtained with line-bored single action revolvers.

[357 Plato]

Take a deep breath fellas. You are all worked up.

The question was if the SIG P210 is the most accurate 9mm handgun. (Can any other 9mm hold a candle to the Sig P210?)

The question was not if the P210 is the BEST combat, hunting ect. Handgun out there.

In other words it is all right that you decided to buy something else. I did and have no regrets.

I think that the answer is: The SIG P210 is, by design, the most accurate 9mm out there. That is if we do not count the custom build target shooters.

And Socrates: Maybe a FA revolver in some revolver caliber is more accurate than a P210. But it is not in 9mm. And maybe 9mm is not to your liking, but that does not make the P210 less accurate.

[larvatus]

The question was if the SIG P210 is the most accurate 9mm handgun.Not quite. The OP specified holding a candle accuracy-wise and in other respects. As regards their accuracy, dedicated target pistols such as the AMU Beretta M9 can outshoot the SIG P210. It is with the other respects that comparisons start making sense. Other factors (such as durability, reliability, and ammunition tolerance) being equal, the Neuhausen pistol is the most accurate tilting barrel, short recoil semiautomatic pistol. Whether or not other semiautomatic action types can perform better when optimized for accuracy, is largely a matter of conjecture. The observed performance of the tilting block action in the Beretta and the toggle action in the Luger suggests that that may well be the case. The P210 excels in its balance of accuracy, reliability, ruggedness, and durability, which remains unmatched by the competition.

[918v]

And since the phrase "hold a candle to" does not imply superiority or equality, the FACT that the P226 Sport Stock is nearly as accurate as a P210 and is actually superior in ALL other aspects to the P210, makes the Sport Stock THE ideal candidate.

[Snub357]

A friend of mine has a 210 and a Smith 952. The Smith is more acurate. Not by a lot, but the groups are smaller. Could be the individual samples of the pistols, who knows. They are both very accurate. I like shooting the Smith over the Sig. It feels better in my hand.

[larvatus]

And since the phrase "hold a candle to" does not imply superiority or equality, the FACT that the P226 Sport Stock is nearly as accurate as a P210 and is actually superior in ALL other aspects to the P210, makes the Sport Stock THE ideal candidate.Similar test targets shot at half the range is not "nearly as accurate". Music wire springs and roll pins are not "actually superior" to silicon wire and machined forgings. That said, I concede that in some circles, cheapness might be regarded as a virtue.

[larvatus]

A friend of mine has a 210 and a Smith 952. The Smith is more acurate. Not by a lot, but the groups are smaller. Could be the individual samples of the pistols, who knows. They are both very accurate. I like shooting the Smith over the Sig. It feels better in my hand.I don't doubt any of that. Practical accuracy is largely a matter of individual ergonomics. That said, S&W 952 (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_160_26/ai_92585776/print) is a dedicated target pistol whose counterpart would be disqualified from Swiss stock service matches in which the fixed sight P210-6 excels.

[918v]

P210's don't shoot 1.2" groups at 50 yards.

Sport Stock's don't have roll pins.

P210's also employ music wire springs.

On another note, S&W PC guns are pretty good.

[Socrates]

Well, I've tried getting accurate reloads worked up for Sig guns in the past. The 9mm is just very hard to come up with a combination that gives tack driving accuracy. That's why I say it is INHERENTLY an inaccurate round. 45 ACP, 45 Long colt, .475 Linebaugh, .308, .44 special and magnum, .50 BMG, etc. are all much easier to load for, for competition accuracy.

The new Sig 226 X does look like a competition gun, made by a factory, and, I suspect it's VERY accurate. It should be for 2200 dollars.

I will say again, that I think the 1911 Kimber, in 9mm, might well be as accurate, but, I don't have tests on the gun to prove it. The Kimber is WAY less then half the cost, and, I'm sure could be made as accurate, probably with a better trigger, then the sig. My experience with Kimber 45's is that they are capable of out of the box accuracy as good as any gun made, depending upon the sample you get.

I also thought the old Sigs 210's to be super accurate, but, as the production changed, the quality went down, and the price went up, something that makes them a poor value, not to mention 100 dollars for a replacement magazine, if you can find one. So, are we talking about the new, avaliable 210's, or the old ones?

Odd, but in this quest for accuracy, no one has mentioned what the trigger pull is on the P210, or the P226? This is vital to being able to actually use the accuracy of the gun.
AS I found out with a Freedom Arms 83, you can have a gun bench capable of shooting one hole, in 475 Linebaugh, at 25 yards, but, with a 5.2 pound trigger, I could only get the gun to do that out of a rest.

Service handguns have one purpose, to give you a fighting chance to get to the rifle you shouldn't have let go.
They must, above all, be able to function at all times.

Tight tolerance, and super accuracy are NOT the most important features of a service gun.

So, if you want a target gun, the attributes the Sig 210 has, there are alternatives.

"The P210 excels in its balance of accuracy, reliability, ruggedness, and durability, which remains unmatched by the competition."
You forgot to add in price.:D

I could easily take a Kimber 1911, 9mm, replace all the mim stuff with Ed Brown parts, and create a tack driving 1911, equal to the P210, for about 1000 dollars. I've already done it in 45 Super. The 1911 design is equal to ANY gun in the above attributes, and, thanks to the extensive market for parts, it can be done at a far lower cost.

If I didn't despise 9mm, it might be my new project. Plus, I could swap in a Marvel conversion for 400 dollars, and have a combination match grade 22lr, and 9mm, for about 1500 dollars, or at least a grand less then the P210.

Does anyone have experience with the current P210s, not the older ones?


S

[larvatus]

Well, I've tried getting accurate reloads worked up for Sig guns in the past. The 9mm is just very hard to come up with a combination that gives tack driving accuracy. That's why I say it is INHERENTLY an inaccurate round. 45 ACP, 45 Long colt, .475 Linebaugh, .308, .44 special and magnum, .50 BMG, etc. are all much easier to load for, for competition accuracy.I am unmoved by the projection of your personal failure into the essential nature of its object. Once again, the Army Marksmanship Unit is getting much better results with the 9mm M9 pistol (http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/oct97shootbetter.html) than it ever did with the .45 ACP M1911A1 pistol (http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/USAMTU.htm). Please address the published facts, not your private shortcomings.The new Sig 226 X does look like a competition gun, made by a factory, and, I suspect it's VERY accurate. It should be for 2200 dollars.Not according to the published test (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_177_29/ai_n14816288/print).I also thought the old Sigs 210's to be super accurate, but, as the production changed, the quality went down, and the price went up, something that makes them a poor value, not to mention 100 dollars for a replacement magazine, if you can find one. So, are we talking about the new, avaliable 210's, or the old ones?The P210 was always priced as a multiple of the cost of a M1911 type gun. This pricing reflected the higher costs of manufacture. Later production pistols in the P300XXX serial number range are mostly made out of military specification and with inferior materials. But their accuracy is identical to their predecessors.Service handguns have one purpose, to give you a fighting chance to get to the rifle you shouldn't have let go.
They must, above all, be able to function at all times.Agreed.Tight tolerance, and super accuracy are NOT the most important features of a service gun.They certainly are, in so far as they might make the difference between a long range head shot and a near miss. Fighting your way to a rifle is not a defensive agendum.I could easily take a Kimber 1911, 9mm, replace all the mim stuff with Ed Brown parts, and create a tack driving 1911, equal to the P210, for about 1000 dollars. I've already done it in 45 Super. The 1911 design is equal to ANY gun in the above attributes, and, thanks to the extensive market for parts, it can be done at a far lower cost.You are repeatedly missing the point. The Neuhausen frame rail design yields a much greater consistency of barrel alignment than that of a M1911. Consequently, tuning a M1911 to the level of accuracy delivered by a stock P210 depends on compromising its reliability. As an aside, you might prefer the M1911 trigger to that of a P210, depending on your feelings about two-stage designs.Does anyone have experience with the current P210s, not the older ones?I own and shoot both kinds. I prefer the production runs ranging from the mid-Sixties to late Seventies, built to the Swiss military spec on deep hardened major components milled out of steel forgings.

[larvatus]

P210's don't shoot 1.2" groups at 50 yards.Mine come with 35-40mm test targets shot at 50 meters.Sport Stock's don't have roll pins.Look closer (http://www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=437&lang=en).P210's also employ music wire springs.You are misinformed.

[918v]

http://www.mek-schuetzen.de/Blueprints/sig-p210-pic.jpg

I see some music wire :D

[918v]

My gun shoots 7mm groups at 15 meters.

[918v]

Well, I've tried getting accurate reloads worked up for Sig guns in the past. The 9mm is just very hard to come up with a combination that gives tack driving accuracy.

147gr. XTP
4.4grs. WSF
WSP
1.115" OAL
FC Brass

OR

3.5grs. Universal Clays
CCI or FC Primer
Win Brass
Same OAL

Mine drives tacks with these handloads.

[larvatus]

I see some music wire :DYou "see" nothing of the sort. Do you understand the difference between music wire and chrome silicon wire?My gun shoots 7mm groups at 15 meters.As another poster noted earlier, it is at longer ranges that you can really differentiate.

[918v]

Not to the extent you claim. I actually shot groups at 50 yards. You?

[Socrates]

" Bottom Line

Eventually delivering sub-1" groups and never once malfunctioning, the X-Five lived up to its catch-your-breath price tag of $2,499. Will it catch on in IPSC Limited Ten? Or, like previous target variations of the double action SIGs, will it appeal primarily to gun enthusiasts who shoot for personal enjoyment rather than trophies? I don't know yet. I'm certain, however, the adjustable-length trigger is going to catch on and show up elsewhere. It's a milestone for which SIG should be congratulated."

Larvatus:
I'd read an article before posting it. That's from the conclusion on the Sig 226X article. Also, it's in .40, and the discussion here is 9mm.

Your use of sophistic tricks rivals Pericles, in front of the Athenian mob. Your reference to links that don't support your point seems to happen everytime I go to one.
WHAT IS THE TRIGGER PULL ON YOUR SIG?
THANK YOU FOR GIVING ONE STRAIGHT ANSWER, ALMOST, IN THAT YOU LIKE THE EARLY GUNS, THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WORTH THE MONEY.
Second, almost truth, is that you acknowledge the trigger pull on the Sig is different from a 1911, and, that most prefer a light, around 2 pound trigger pull for a target accurate gun, without multiple stages, and little travel.
How does the sig stack up on standard target trigger requirements?
Also, I didn't say I failed to come up with accurate rounds, simply that the round was MUCH more difficult to design accurate rounds then others, like the 45 ACP/Super.

It's OK if you want to make a religion out of a gun producer, and their product. I understand. Counseling is avaliable for such fanatics.:rolleyes:

S

[larvatus]

Larvatus:
I'd read an article before posting it.I read the article. Herewith Massad Ayoob responding to your suspicion that he new Sig 226 X is VERY accurate, because it should be for 2200 dollars:Other than the strangeness of superb accuracy with the buffer out and mediocre accuracy with it in, I could find only two complaints with the otherwise eminently enjoyable and "shootable" test pistol.Pop quiz: How much of the aforementioned 2200 dollars does Sauer charge to degrade accuracy with a recoil buffer?most prefer a light, around 2 pound trigger pull for a target accurate gun, without multiple stages, and little travel.While preferences for single versus double stage triggers vary between shooters and disciplines, you continue to neglect the fact that the P210 reflects Swiss military specifications for stock service competition. I have spelled out these specifications here (http://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html).

[larvatus]

I actually shot groups at 50 yards. You?Not in a few years. I used to shoot at longer ranges with my late father. Your point being?

[Socrates]

Thanks
That's a good link, and, it provides information about the target grade guns they offer. I WOULD like to have a P210, and, perhaps someday, when I'm older, I'll want a 9mm.

S

[larvatus]

That's a good link, and, it provides information about the target grade guns they offer.Please bear in mind that most of P210 production has been biased towards the stock service competition rules. Most of their dedicated target pistols can be converted to its standards by dropping in a 120mm barrel and mounting factory fixed sights.

The example of Neuhausen micrometer sights reflects this requirement. Their early variation, embedded into the slide as depicted here (http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=4344), was superior to the final configuration in all respects except for modularity. Hence the switch to the high profile, user-replaceable version, as shown here (http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=6814).

The factory state of tune of the P210 likewise is meant to reflect the original military spec. It is not uncommon to find test targets measuring around 30mm fired by the more tightly fitted late production pistols, as against the maximum permissible spread of 50mm. Correlatively, the final production run is renowned for its want of reliability characteristic of the classic P49.

[918v]

Your point being?

That my P226 shoots right with your P210. Put my gun in a ransom rest and it will outshoot your gun.

[larvatus]

Put my gun in a ransom rest and it will outshoot your gun.
Jesus Quintana: You ready to be f*cked, man? I see you rolled your way into the semis. Dios mio, man. Liam and me, we're gonna f*ck you up.
The Dude: Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Jesus Quintana: Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the f*cking trigger 'til it goes "click."
The Dude: Jesus.
Jesus Quintana: You said it, man. Nobody f*cks with the Jesus.
Walter Sobchak: Eight-year-olds, Dude.
-- Ethan Coen & Joel Coen, The Big Lebowski

[918v]

You waste precious webspace.

[larvatus]

You waste precious webspace.Whatever you say, Jesus.

[Socrates]

I can't believe the stock trigger is 6.3 pounds, SA. That's incredible!!!!
HOW anyone hits a barn with that trigger is beyond me.

What an absurd setup.:rolleyes:

S

[rick_reno]

The P226 X5 is supposed to be very accurate. I haven't seen one at the range.

[larvatus]

I can't believe the stock trigger is 6.3 pounds, SA. That's incredible!!!!
HOW anyone hits a barn with that trigger is beyond me. You are referring to the P49 service pistol specification, whereby the permissible first stage weight may range between 2000 and 2500 grams. For Swiss service competition, it is possible to replace the standard trigger spring by a sport trigger spring that would reduce the trigger pressure by about 500 grams, to a minimum of 1500 grams. Many Swiss shooters prefer the standard P210-2 trigger for target shooting. They might know a thing or two about trigger control.

[918v]

Why don't you tell us how the P210 is superior to S&W Performance Center pistols, or the Korch?

[larvatus]

Why don't you tell us how the P210 is superior to S&W Performance Center pistols, or the Korch?In all due respect, I lost all interest in talking guns with you the moment you came out of the closet as Jesus Quintana. Consider bowling. It seems to be more your speed.

[Bud Helms]

Wow. This one is really making progress. Not.

Closed for name-calling, "mine is better than yours" and petty bickering.

PMs sent.