H&K .357 Sig

[jacklord]

I was looking at Heckler and Koch's website and saw that for most of their models, they offer a .357 Sig.

How does the .357 Sig stack up to the .357 magnum?
Is the .357 Sig closer to a .38 Special round, or does it pack a little more punch?
Between the .45 and .357 Sig, what would be the more powerful round?

Thanks

[VUPDblue]

Actually, I just got back from the range after completing a little 'pet project'. I chrony'd some .357 Mag 125gr. Gold Dot store bought defense ammunition out of my King Cobra 4" bbl. @ 21 feet. I got 1376 fps. Later I chrony'd some .357 SIG 125gr. Gold Dot out of my Glock 31 at the same distance and got 1488 fps. The SIG rounds were handloads, but still, that is some pretty similar performance as far as the SIG and MAG goes.

[donglock26]

125gr .357Sig equals 125gr .357Mag out of shorter barrels. With less recoil and more rounds in the pistol. Many of the factory test speeds for .357Mag are using 6-8" test barrels. Double Tap makes hot .357Sig rounds using the Gold Dot bullets.

[croyance]

The .357 Sig was designed to have similar velocities as the .357 Magnum from a 4" revolver, that being a common service revolver size and the 125 grain bullet the more common weight by the '70s.

In heavier weights the .357 Magnum begins to look better. There are more options too. I suppose you could hunt with a .357 Sig, but there are only so many long barreled semi-autos out there. I'm not sure if anybody even makes an approprate bullet, much less loads a good cartridge for it.
Whereas with a .357 Magnum, every manufacturer has (or had) a 6" or 8" barrel option. All kinds of bullets and cartridges are available.

For soft-skinned bipeds though, they are pretty much the same.

[Shaun]

.357 sig, although some might dispute this, is a dying cartridge (along with its cousin 10mm). The rounds are like neanderthal man, and .40 s&w is like modern humans. true .357 sig and 10mm have higher muzzle velocities but for PD .40 s&w will do you just fine, and its easier to manage IMO. Also .40 s&w is cheaper and easy to find.

[VUPDblue]

.357 sig, although some might dispute this, is a dying cartridge (along with its cousin 10mm). The rounds are like neanderthal man, and .40 s&w is like modern humans. true .357 sig and 10mm have higher muzzle velocities but for PD .40 s&w will do you just fine, and its easier to manage IMO. Also .40 s&w is cheaper and easy to find.

You are exactly right on all counts. However, I am not likely to give mine up, EVER !:D I just bought it because (like a lot of other shooters) it is/was new and different and I 'just had to have it'. Still, I believe it was a good buy, and I'll likely keep mine forever simply because I like to shoot it.

[John2]

I love my Glock 33 in 357 SIG as well as my Glock 20 and 29. So I expect I'll go along dragging my knuckles like a neanderthal, enjoy being obsolete and bucking the tide of change.:p

[croyance]

Of course the .40 S&W is easier to manage, with its lower velocity.
I think over the last five years the 10mm gained popularity. Prior to that is looked dead.

[JohnO]

".357 sig, although some might dispute this, is a dying cartridge (along with its cousin 10mm). The rounds are like neanderthal man, and .40 s&w is like modern humans. true .357 sig and 10mm have higher muzzle velocities but for PD .40 s&w will do you just fine, and its easier to manage IMO. Also .40 s&w is cheaper and easy to find."

I disagree...A .357 Sig has less felt recoil than most .40's and more energy. True, energy does not alway = better stopping power, but it sure can't hurt. There are several federal, locak, state, ect, agencies using the .357 Sig. Not as many as those using the .40 s&w, but I'm thinking more will move towards the .357 Sig as time goes on.

As for cost, it's about $5-10 more per 500 rounds of practice ammo. When your talking about premium defense ammo (Gold Dot, Ranger, Corbon, ect) these is not enough difference, if at all, between all the major defense calibers to justify one over the other based on cost.

Maybe usage of the .357 Sig will grow, maybe not. However, it's doubtful it will ever go away. It does what it was designed to do.

1) Offers .357 Mag power out of a 4" service weapon.
2) Less felt recoil than a .357 Mag.
3) More available firepower - 6/7 rounds vs 12+
4) Does it all in a mid sized auto vs a larger revolver.
5) Faster recovery time from shot to shot.
6) Better accuracy over most 40's. At least from my experience. May not have been a design factor, but its an added plus.

No one caliber can do it all. However, this round was designed for law enforcement and no agency that has adopted it regretted their decision.

If I happen to be wrong, I still have a .40s&w barrel for my P229.:D

[adephue]

From what I understand, "357 Sig" is not as much of a ".357" as you might think. 357 Sig is essentially a 9mm Luger bullet crimped into a .40 S&W case. As I understand the story, SigArms developed the round to provide the extra velocity comparable to .357 Mag with less recoil, etc... all of what JohnO said... except they wanted to stay as far away from the 9mm Luger image as much as possible... so they named it somehting closer to the popular .357 Magnum. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.)

I guess the only red flag on 357 Sig is that a lot of people complain about the velocity of the 9mm Luger and say that it doesn't have enough 'stopping' or 'knockdown' power. While you might gain more muzzle energy, you are doing so via increased velocity as a result of the hotter powder load in the .40 S&W case.

I have a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 that 'should' take a 357 Sig barrel... so I will snag a barrel when the 357 Sig model is released later this year and try it out for myself. A good buddy of mine has a Sig P229 w/ a drop-in 357 Sig Barrel and swears by the round.

[VUPDblue]

I tend to disagree with Adephew. .357 mag, .357 sig and 9mm luger are all actually .001" different. Yes, the 357sig round is loaded into a necked-down .40 S&W case, but I assure you, it is more closely related to the .357 mag than the 9mm luger.
I guess the only red flag on 357 Sig is that a lot of people complain about the velocity of the 9mm Luger and say that it doesn't have enough 'stopping' or 'knockdown' power. While you might gain more muzzle energy, you are doing so via increased velocity as a result of the hotter powder load in the .40 S&W case.
So how exactly is this a red flag? The people wanted more power out of a certain size weapon, and, they got it! If you have a 125gr gold dot traveling at 1450fps out of both a 6" Python and a 4" Glock 31, how on earth can you compare either one of them to the anemic 9mm? Your analogy is like comparing the .30 carbine to the .300 RSAUM. Same diameter bullet right?

[RJay]

The 357 Sig is a S&W 40 necked down to 9MM. A super 9. No more, No less. Sorry about that.

[VUPDblue]

I guess this must be one of those times that we have to agree to disagree. I think that the Sig round is a closer relation (balistically) to the Mag round, even though it evolved from the 9mm. It was intended to simulate the ballistics of the Mag and I believe that it does this rather well, 9mm roots or not.

[JohnO]

I'll be honest with you guys, for years I never thought the .357 Sig had enough over the .40s&w to be worth buying a gun chambered in this caliber. This is how I became to like this round.

Had a Sig P228 9mm. Sold it and regretted ever since. To make up for it I bought a P229 in .40. Wasn't happy with its accuracy so I sold it. However, I could not let the whole P229 thing go. I really liked the gun and how it felt. Almost considered finding another 9mm. Then, it hit me!

Since the .357 Sig seemed to be an inherently accuract round, why not try a P229 in that caliber. So I did. Loved it. Put 3 different loads over a chrony, all 125 gr JHP's. i.e. Corbon, Remington and Speer Gold Dot. The 3 averaged 1420 fps out of my P229. The Remington put 5 shots into 7/8" @ 15 yds. Both Corbon and Remington went 2+ @ 25 yds. All off hand, with aging eyes.:D

Now, this gives me a gun that is very accurate, compact and averages 560 fpe. Not a bad combination as far as I'm concerned.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying this is the best thing since sliced bread. Only that, it won't be going anywhere, anytime soon. It's a good defense/law enforcement round and will likely gain in its popularity. And there are certainly many other good load in all calibers, 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp. The right load in any of these calibers will not leave me feeling defenseless.

[croyance]

I guess the only red flag on 357 Sig is that a lot of people complain about the velocity of the 9mm Luger and say that it doesn't have enough 'stopping' or 'knockdown' power. While you might gain more muzzle energy, you are doing so via increased velocity as a result of the hotter powder load in the .40 S&W case.
The super 9mm is an interesting comment.

Same velocity as a .357 Magnum.
Same weight as what is regarded as the most effective loading of the .357 Magnum.
Same diameter as the .357 magnum.
It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, but it isn't a duck?

So please explain why it is less effective than the .357 Magnum out of a 4" barrel? Yes, that load of the .357 magnum does it on velocity too - quite effectively as far as handgun loads go.

Sure it does it as a result of the larger powder load of the .40 S&W case. So what? The 9x23 does it out of the larger capacity of a longer case as does the .357 Magnum.

I also disagree with the medium auto vs. large revolver comment. K-frames are not large.

[VUPDblue]

quack quack...:p

[croyance]

Wabbit Season!

[Kowboy]

All:

I thought this guy's ideas's on .357 were worth repeating:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/550103904/m/5471026821/p/1


Kowboy

[BLKLABMAN]

The .357Sig is illegal for hunting in most states. Either because of the round (measurements and/or Power Factor) or because of the semi-auto issue. In some states all these make the .357Sig illegal.
The .357Sig puts up some great numbers on the chrono, and is a very accurate round. However as with all thing's, there is a dark side. Typical expansion is a tad less than the 9mm.
Average expansion
9mm 0.63
.357Sig 0.62
.40S&W .068
.45ACP 0.74
The best 9mm +P, +P+ loads penetrate the same. Some a tad more. Ammo for the most part has to be ordered. Even if it doesnt, the ammo is still more expensive than 9mm, .40S&W and the case here, the .45ACP.
Sales are different from one area to another. I only know about here. Even with the TNHP going to the round, ammo(and pistols in the caliber) are not selling. Many gunshops have stopped selling .357Sig ammo because of the lack in demand. They will special order, but not stock.
To become a big time player , the .357Sig needs to be picked up by some major LE depts. If not, it will simply be another niche round like the 10mm, and .41`mag.

[JohnO]

"To become a big time player , the .357Sig needs to be picked up by some major LE depts."

I consider the US Secret Service to be a major player. In addition, you have Air Marshalls, Delaware State Police, and DPS. There are several others, but these are some major players. Granted, it still does not compare to those using a .40 s&w, but there are several major LE agencies using the .357 Sig.

Also had an Immigration Officer come into the store I work at asking for Speer Gold Dot in .357 Sig. I don't think they exclusively use this round, but it must be approved as he had his .357 Sig Glock on his side.

[JohnO]

Kowboy, Very interesting thread. Thanks.

[croyance]

Interesting. He had the same idea I did about embedding bones into ballistic gelatin. I also wanted areas of stretchy membrane, to simulate organs and the areas between major system groups.

[BLKLABMAN]

John O.
There are LE Depts that have gone to it ,and many others that allow it for carry. As a whole acoss the country these are some small numbers.
The .357Sig intriques me.
.357mag in the form of a Colt Trooper was my first handgun/caliber, some years ago. The .357mag remains my favorite for self defense and Deer and Black Bear hunting. To have it's ability in semi-auto form, does interest me.
I think with it being somewhat new on the scene, that the .357Sig's full potential as a self defense round, could be amazing. I may be wrong, but I do not see its development over. Its also gives us, another choice.
I did not mean to sound negative in my last post. That was not my intent, I was simply being realistic. The .357Sig remains a high priced round(even higher than .45ACP here). Even with the TNHP adopting the round, people are not going to it. Because of this, most gunstores in my area will not even carry it anymore.
The same is true with the .45GAP , and 10mm. They will not carry them, because there is no demand.
I would like to see all these rounds succeed. Their success as self defense rounds can only help the consumers, by giving us may viable options in the self defense arena.
PS
Sorry if my typing leaves something to be desired. I had surgery on my right hand last week, so all this is being typed one handed.

[JohnO]

BLKLABMAN,

I didn't take your post as being negative at all. Prices range quite drastically throughout the country.

I work part time at Gander Mountain so I'm pretty familiar with ammo costs here in Colorado. When it comes to premium defense rounds I don't see much variance in cost at all. Might cost me a buck or two difference between Corbon 9mm 115gr +P, as it would Corbon 125gr JHP .357 Sig. Looks to me like we are paying for the ammo companies research. Kind of like medicine. Cost to manufacture is usually low, but years of research costs us dearly.

Also, I fully agree with you in that, the number of agencies that use the .357 Sig is relatively low. No doubt. I belive that everyone ran from the 9mm to the 40s&w before the 357 Sig was developed. Had the .357 Sig been developed earlier, who knows? Most likely it would have been the other way around.

There really isn't enough data on real life shootings with the .357 Sig to know for sure how good a round it is. Although, every agency that uses it seems to be extreemely happy with that caliber.

This is how I look at it, if it moves the same size/weight bullet as the old 357 Mag, which was a fantasticly documented defense caliber, I don't see how the .357 Sig could differ very much. If anything, we have a much better variety of bullet designs available to us today, than we did when the .357 Mag ruled as king.

Let's face it, marketing does a great job at making something for all of us. When it comes to handgun defense calibers or rifle hunting calbibers, there is more than enough overlap to go around. What I'm trying to say is, Ford isn't better than Chevy. Blondes are not prettier than Red heads, ect....There is something that will please us all.

[MK11]

People have been saying .357 Sig is a dying round for what, 10 years now?

More STATE police agencies issue .357 Sig than .45 ACP or 9mm, if that means anything. (As an average shooter it shouldn't but it does say something for everyone who thinks it's going to disappear).

My local Wal-mart had several boxes of .357 Sig this weekend. No .44 special. No 10mm. No .41 mag. No .32 ACP.