Conversion cylinder/hammer release

[GolfGuy]

I just noticed something that concerns me. With 45LC dummy cartridges loaded in the cylinder and the cylinder loaded in the gun I fully cock the hammer and then slowly release the hammer back to a resting position, the action jams up, the hammer is not returning all the way to the full rest position and can't be cocked again, even to half cock until I push the hammer down until it clicks.

What concerns me is that this is pushing the firing pin into primer. Of course pulling the trigger from the full cock position works just fine, I can cock and fire like normal. But with a loaded gun, if I change my mind about firing once the gun is cocked I could have an issue on my hands. After gently letting the hammer down, it won't go to half cock or full cock and it won't release the bolt to turn the cylinder to an empty chamber. I have to carefully hold the hammer back slightly while removing the cylinder or risk setting off the primer by pushing the hammer down manually, the last 1/16 inch or so.

Also, the rubber primers on the dummy caps are recessed slightly, so the firing pins sit even higher with live ammo so this condition will be even worse.

Has anybody else had this problem? And is there any thing that can be done to shorten the distance the hammer has to travel forward before resetting itself? Does that make sense?

[Old Dragoon]

You don't say which Conversion cylinder you have. But, It sounds to me like your hand is a tish too long and this affects the timing of the hammer fall. Everytime you lower the hammer on a full chamber you put pressure on the firing pin and thus it will rest upon the primer and if jarred or dropped will fire the round. With the hand being too long it will not let the hammer reach it's release so you can bring it back to halfcock.

[GolfGuy]

Its a R & D cylinder for an Uberti. Yes, thats exactly right, the hammer is resting on the firing pin and the firing pin is resting on the primer but the hammer has not traveled far enough forward at that point to reset the hammer and be able to pull it back to half cock. Taking the cylinder out is my only option at that point and is fairly tricky at that.

So the hand affects this forward release of the hammer? You may have seen my other post on drag marks on the cylinder as well, would that also be caused by too long a hand?

Edit: I forgot the metion the gun is an 1858 Remington.

[Old Dragoon]

Yes because it affects the whole timing issue. ie won't let the hammer all the way down and the bolt rises too early. Adjust the length of the hand a smidgeon snd I think the timing will be right. It affects the whole toiming because the hand is binding sanf not allowing the bolt to pop up in time or the hammer to fall all the way to release to be able to return to halfcock. This happens freguently when installing a conversion cylinder, and the fix doesn't seem to affect the C & B cylinder either.

[ribbonstone]

It's the bolt.

Measure the depth of the locking notches on the conversion cylinder and on the original percussion cylinder. Will find, in the interrrest of safety, the conversion cylinder's notches are not as deep.

SO...if the notch is not as deep, the bolt doesn't fall into do deeply...and the tail end of the bolt doesn't slip past the stud on the hammer that resets the whole thing.

[GolfGuy]

Yes, the notches are shallower on the conversion cylinder. What can be done about that? File down the bolt?

There's one vote for too long a hand and one for bolt. Looks like what we have here is a debate, hmm... me being the novice I'm going to rely on you experts to help me troubleshoot and resolve this. I feel the gun is borderline unsafe (with the conversion cylinder), it should fire okay but, once cocked is difficult to return to a safe state making it somewaht dangerous to cock if not fully prepared to, or not able to fire the gun.

[ribbonstone]

Check to see...if you push the hammer fully forward (as if it dented the primer of a loaded round) see if that gives the bolt a chance to reset. One one 1862, that was the case..just a 1/32nd inch more forward motion and she worked fine.

It's a see-saw action, tip of bolt goes up into the notch (pivoting on it's screw) and the rear finger rides down over the hammer's stud and resets for the next cycle.
Can:
1. Make the bolt a little shorter so it pivots up a bit more.
2. Make the rear finger extention's notch a little deeper so it will slip over the hammer's stud a bit earlier (this is tricky).
3. Get the hammer to move forward a little bit more.

On #3, have to be sure the hammer's radius doesn't contact the frame...if there is some room there, might stone back the hammer nose a bit (not the sight..the part that strikes the pin). MAY find soft metal underneath the outer case hardening and have a eventually problem of the nose peening itself.


OF all the choices, I tend to work on the cheapest part...in this case the bolt.

[GolfGuy]

Yes, with the snap caps in, I can push the hammer forward and feel the firing pin push into the rubber primer and hear the click of the hammer/bolt resetting. I don't dare try this with live rounds for obvious reasons, but the distance it moves forward before resetting is about 1/16th inch from what I can tell, however, the rubber priimers on the snap caps are slightly recessed so with live rounds the firing pins sit even higher and I'm guessing forward travel will need to be around an 1/8th in with live ammo.

I think I like soultion number one the best too. That also, sounds like the easiest which is another plus.

I'm not going to rush into this, so if you (or anyone else) think of something else to add, I'm all ears.

[ribbonstone]

Just remember that the bolt pivots up on a radius...doesn't go straight up, so have to figure your shortening a bit carefully....best to mount the bolt on the OUTSIDE of the frame (using the screw as a kind of pin) to get an idea of how it needs to be shortened...and go slow,check often.

[GolfGuy]

Ribbonstone-

I really I really appreciate your help with this but I'm not sure that shortening the bolt will fix this problem. I don't mean to question your expertise but after examining this problem a little closer witht the cylinder out, I found that if I push the bolt down while slowly releasing the hammer, that the hammer resets sooner not later.

I've done this several times lots of different ways. With the cylinder out and the bolt unrestricted, the hammer doen't reset until just a hair (about 1/16th inch or less) before it reaches its full rest position. With the bolt pushed down flush with the frame it resets well before the full rest position (about 1/4 in) and as I vary the depth that I push the bolt down the hammer reset corresponds accordingly.

So unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible, your advice is opposite of what is actaully happening.

This is a perplexing problem. I wish I had a clear plastic model of this gun so I could see what was goin on inside the darn thing.

I think I might have to examine option #2 now. Option 3 I don't think would work either, as you pointed out I would probably remove the hardend layer and be into the softer metal.

So can you tell me more about option #2. I appreciate your help with this.

[GolfGuy]

Okay, I have the gun completely apart and I'm trying to understand how the hammer and bolt work together so I put just those two things back in the gun and I can't quite see inside well enough to see exactly what is happening but what it seems like is that the resetting point is when the left rear fork of the bolt slips over the bump on the right side of the hammer. (please forgive my terminology, I'm sure there are more official names for these parts).

So, if I'm getting my noodle around this correctly, then filing off a smidge from the top of the 'bump' should allow the bolt to reset sooner. (See photo, blue line indicates where I think i should 'square off' the bump.)

Yes, no, not exactly?

http://www.terrorismsafetyalliance.org/HammerBump.jpg

There may well be other factors involved in the resetting that I don't understand so please, anyone share your thoughts on this.

Actually after i thought about this more, that would allow the bolt to pop up sooner right? thats not what I want. I want the whole mechanism to reset sooner so the hammer can be cocked again.

Sheesh, now I'm all confusered.

Any advice?

[Oldelm]

Golf Guy,......Just thought I'd jump in here on this thread. I don't know if I can help , but will try. I would advise you right off to NOT alter that "bump" , as you call it on the hammer. That's the hammer cam, and I think it needs to remain as intact as possible for the properly smooth operation of the mechanism.

There's a friend of mine named Wayne (Wayner) who posts mostly on the Voy forum,http://www.voy.com/60048/ and he has helped alot of us out with what he likes to call "kitchen table gunsmithing". He's very knowledgable about the workings of revolvers,...especially cap & ball,..and I've saved many of his posts in a folder on my computer. I believe he has discussed this timing issue in many different ways,..so I'll look through my saved info by him and get back to you on this. If you want, ...feel free to go over on the Voy forum and ask for his advise about this,..... in the meanwhile , I'll see what I can dig up in my files that will help shed light on this. :D
Nice pic of that hammer, by the way.

[GolfGuy]

Ah, hammer CAM, I knew there was a name for it. And don't worry, I'm not going to file, smooth, cut, add or remove ANYTHING until I know what I'm doing and I'm sure that I'm doing the right thing and even then I'll be very careful. I've learned the hard way too many times that its easy to file metal off of something but real hard to put it back LOL.

All too often I think something works one way then find out later that it works another way and I end up replacing parts. My tinkering on my boat is a prime example, pumps, pulleys, engine parts etc... yep, I've replaced my share of perfectly good parts, at least they were good before I got at 'em.

So, alas, I think I may have finally learned from my own mistakes, I'm not planning on making ANY changes to this gun until I have a complete understanding of its workings.

Thanks for the input!

[GolfGuy]

Oldelm!! you are the MAN!!!!! Your advice in the other thread about backing off the bolt spring screw did the trick for solving this problem.

I didn't try that until I was reassembling the gun and I didn't make any other changes, I just put it back together, (which was an accomplishment in itself) and in doing so I followed your advice about adjusting the screw, backing it off and carefully adjusting the spring tension (your description was perfect by the way). And yes, I can feel the difference in the action, the 'clicks' are softer and not as loud and harsh and lo and behold that also affects the point at which the hammer resets itself. Now it resets, just as the hammer touches the firing pin, which works for me.

However, as I said the snap caps primers are slightly recessed so with live ammo this may still be an issue, I won't know that until I get to the range. I don't want to try it in the house. I have loaded the gun with live ammo and let the hammer down on the empty chamber, but have not cocked it. I live in a condo and I don't think my neighbors (or the cops) would appreciate an accidental discharge.

But still progress was made. And if you didn't mention that I would have just torqued the screw down and not even have known to do that.

At least now, if further modification is needed it should be a lot less than it would have been if the bolt spring was torqued down tight.

I love this forum! Great people and great advice. I could never have learned so much about cab & ball guns without you guys, lest years of trial and error and the occasional tip from a fellow BP shooter at the range possibly.

Thanks again!

[Oldelm]

Hey Golf Guy,.....glad to hear that loosening the Trigger/Bolt spring helped you some. Hopefully, when you get to the range and gently lower the hammer back down from full cock to rest on a live round, your hammer will re-set so you can go to half-cock,.... and then be free without locking up.:D

It's amazing how integral all the working parts are on these revolvers, and how interconnected they are.

I checked with my Uberti '58 Rem , and put a loaded R&D cyl. in,.....went to full cock, then gently down to rest on live round, and when the hammer was almost down I could "feel" the hammer re-set and was able to come back to half-cock, and from there to remove loaded cylinder.

Good luck at the Range! :)

[GolfGuy]

Oldelm-

LOL, yes, gently is the key word there for sure.

This was the first chance I've had to tear the gun down to bare bones and even though I still don't quite have a 100% complete understanding of the timing on these things I'm amazed at the simple yet incredibly effective design. And I'm even more impressed that the design is almost 150 years old.

Those old guys, Colt and Remington were pretty smart fellers. As simple as it is its pretty dang complex and requires a certain amount of precision and the fact the originals were machined on (water powered, mule powered, hand powered??) milling machines is even more incredible.

Thats what I like about sailing, its still done pretty much the way its been done for hundreds of years. The material the equipment is made of is more modern but the process, principle and techniques are exactly the same.

Thats what attracted me to BP, I guess I'm a traditionalist, i welcome new technology, like the this Internet, how cool is that? but I also marvel at and appreciate older technology and our forefathers ingenuity.

Anyway, thanks again for the tip.