tactical reload

[draka]

Can anyone recomends good training driil,that includes transition between SUB mashine gun and pistol and tacticle reload, with or withought cover.Any kind of info about tacticle reload will be very usefull.THANK's:)

[threegun]

Draka, I just practice reloading. Not specifically tactical reloading. If I need to tactical reload just grab the partially empty mag in your gun and replace it with a fresh mag. There is no secret. With lots of practice it becomes second nature. I do practice while maintaining my view of the target.

At the range I like to practice double taps and reloading together. Just load 2 Rd's in each mag and shoot/load/shoot/load etc until your supply of mags runs dry. Dry fire as much as possible and pop mags in and out as much as possible.

As for transitioning from long gun to handgun......can't help much. If I'm using my long gun it would be hard for me to transition to a puny handgun without the long gun either running dry or malfunctioning. If that happens in a shootout I'd probably toss it aside (flame suit on).

[draka]

:) Thank's

[draka]

:) Thank's,but how do you think ,does it needs to crouch when you reload in a real situation?

[threegun]

Draka, If crouching puts you behind cover then crouch. Always try to reload from behind cover if it is at all possible. Remember most gunfights end with less than 5 shots being fired so chances are a reload will not be needed. I put more influence on other things in practice, like front sight location, the draw, and moving while maintaining a good sight picture or shooting. Others of more importance to me are shooting one handed and weak handed because the possibility is greater that I get wounded during the fight and need to continue with only one hand.

[draka]

Ok;)

[kjdoski]

Draka - we use three point slings on our long guns; when they run dry of malfunction we just "sweep" them to the weak side while drawing our sidearms; the sling does the rest for us.

WRT "tactical" reloading ala the IDPA reload, I'm not a fan. It's a specialty skill that should only be used when you have a definite "lull" in the fight; not something you should be doing if there are still threats active in the area. Better to get VERY fast at reloading from slide lock ("Emergency Reload" for our agency) or just topping off with a fresh magazine ("Tactical Reload" for our agency). Neither of these skills requires any real thought, or any fine motor movements/juggling that is unlikely to be "do-able" in a gunfight.

Threegun's reload drill is as good as any; "shoot two, reload, shoot two repeat" will teach you the muscle memory you need to get fast at reloading. Once you've got the motions down, I like a more advanced technique wherein I load five or six magazines with anything from one to five rounds, put them in a pocket, and randomly load one, then put the rest in mag pouches. What this does is take some of the "game" out of the reload drill insofar as you don't have advanced warning of when you're going to have to reload...

Regards,

Kevin

[David Armstrong]

FWIW, years of research and hunting have yet to provide a single non-military example of a tactical reload making any difference in the outcome of a fight. It is a nice skill for the range, but is one of those things that is of no importance to an actual fight. Work on a good controlled reload and forget about saving mags/ammo.

[TN-popo]

For my department, I teach "Combat/Emergency Reload" for most everything...if there's that much of a lull, pick up the dropped mag if you feel the need.
"Reload with Retention" for admin purposes or when being covered by a teammate.

I'm too much of a Murphy believer to put much stock in the "Tac Reload." Take any class that practices the Tac Reload and you'll see many people having a hard time with it under range conditions, much less under the stress of combat...and it only gets worse with hicap mags. Can some do it? Sure, but the "fumble rate" seems higher.

My tac-tickle humble opinion...

[OBIWAN]

The bulk of your training should, of course, focus on the speed reload

But there is value in practicing the Tac Load as well

There are plenty of situations where dropping a mag on the ground would be a "bad idea".

Like for instance you are knee deep in water, standing in a dark muddy field, several inches of snow, etc.

For those that only carry one spare magazine, dropping your first mag on the ground is placing a whole lot of trust in that second mag;)

There is no real downside to the extra dexterity you may develop from practicing it.

It is , by definition, not something you need to be blazing fast at.

[TN-popo]

All in the situational point of view then.

Mine...training and working with folks that carry at least 3 pistol mags, and many times, at least that many rifle mags. And in a city environment in TN, we are rarely knee deep in water or in several inches of snow.:D

I'd still say that if it's not something you have to be "blazing fast at" or you operate in an environment/situation that dictates something other than a "Combat Reload," then a "Reload with Retention" is still a better (more Murphy-proof) option than the "Tactical Reload."
Best

[OBIWAN]

Excuse me....but what is the difference (in your mind) between a reload with retention and a tactical reload:confused:

[TN-popo]

The difference is (and not just in MY mind, Dave Spaulding recently wrote an article on the subject in American Cop magazine, I believe, if you'd like to learn more about it), is that during a "Reload with Retention" you never handle two magazines at the same time. You basically stow the partially spent mag first before grabbing the new one.
In my opinion and experience, it's more reliable and not really any slower if you compare the techniques with a timer, as I have. If you don't have time to do a "Reload with Retention", you probably should have been doing a "Combat Reload" to begin with.

Ultimately, what works for you is the Right Way.
This seems to work for me and mine.
Sincerely.

[OBIWAN]

Oh...well if David Spaulding said it ok then...:D

With everyone free to make up their own terms it sometimes gets confusing

I see no reason to bother practicing the "stick 1st mag in pocket then reload"

I can't think af anything that would be simpler...or more administrative in nature.

I don't see the RWR being as fast, if you just look at the time the gun remains empty...rather than including that pesky "put the 1st mag away time.

Which is the only time that matters IMO

I never saw the Tac Reload as being all that tactical...since it assumes a "lull in the hostilities"

But now that I am aware of the RWR....now there is a non-tactical manuever:rolleyes:

[TN-popo]

"I can't think of anything that would be simpler...or more adminstrative in nature."
That's my point exactly.

"I don't see the RWR being as fast..."
You said yourself it's not something (or a situation) you have to be "blazing fast at."

Anyway, as I said earlier, what works for YOU is the Right Way.
Happy training.

[threegun]

Reloading with retention causes the gun to remain empty for the longest period. I believe that the fresh mag should be grabbed before the release of the other mag is pressed. If the partial mag drops oh well. If the bad guy attacks at the precise moment that you disengage the partial mag, the fresh mag is but inches away. If I had to choose between tactical and retention reloads , it has to be tactical.

[OBIWAN]

I would agree

Blazing speed is not required(or we would use the combat reload)

Don't you just love all this warrior terminology

But empty guns are pretty useless

best to minimize that time when they become single shots;)

[TN-popo]

threegun and Obiwan...guys, what ever works for you is the way it needs to be done.

But just to keep things in perspective, I refer back to the first paragraph of my first post.
Best

[Timulator]

Just try the "Reload with Retention" technique sometime. Give it an honest evaluation and make your decision from there.

Because it does not require the handling of two magazines at the same time, I find it much easier (and, for me, faster) to do under stress than a traditional "Tactical Reload." I think for those who practice a great deal with the TR, they'll be faster than the RWR guys. But for most of us, the RWR is actually a lot faster, and easier, to get done. And with a lot less fumbling (especially with my Glock magazines!)

[threegun]

Timulator, Speed to completion of reload may be the same or close however the time in which the gun remains a single shot is much longer.

TN-popo, Sorry dude, I missed your first post first paragraph.

[Tim Burke]

you discover that the only mag you have left is in the gun.
Maybe you lost count, maybe you dropped your spare; the reason is unimportant. If you are doing a slide down speed reload or a tactical reload, the first step is to acquire the new magazine. Failure to acquire a new magazine means you don't unload your gun.
With the reload with retention, you have already unloaded your gun, and stored your partial mag before you go searching for your replacement magazine.
No, thank you, I'll stick to techniques that require me to confirm that I have a reload before I unload.

[OBIWAN]

What Tim Said:D

He was much clearer than I

If you are stressed don't pick from column B or C

Both techniques are for those rare cases where you are NOT in a hurry

But either way...you do not want an empty gun

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Givens told us that no one has ever found a civilian incident of a tac reload.

He also stress Tim's point about knowing you have a mag.

[pickpocket]

+1 to Tim for pointing out that you need to grab the new mag first.

Reloading (+retention) is neither inherently slower nor completely administrative. It's all in the way you practice. Practiced inefficiently, then reloading with retention indeed leaves the weapon ineffective for the longest window of time.

However, if reloading with retention is something that you're interested in trying, there are a few things to consider:

Define "retention". Common-sense dictates that 'retention' simply mean a modicum of control. You don't HAVE to place the empty mag in your hip pocket. Practice placing it in your back pocket, practice dropping it into the collar of your shirt. For me, in a civilian encounter, 'retention' would simply mean knowing where the dropped magazine is so I can come back and get it later.

Don't drop the spent magazine until you have the fresh one in hand. Notice how your magazine is oriented in your weak hand after you pull it from the pouch; if you can easily rotate it so that it will slide right into the weapon, then good. If you have to rotate the mag all the way around before it will fit, consider putting the mag into the pouch oriented in the opposite direction...where the front of the mag faces up rather than down.

With practice (as with all things) you can execute a magazine change with retention just as quickly as one without. With the new mag in hand (and oriented in the right direction), drop the spent mag into the same hand that's holding the new mag, rotate that hand 90 degrees and then insert the new mag.

So there it is. If reloading with retention is important to you, give it a try. This is the same drill I had my guys use with their M16's and it worked out well enough.
That said, I don't truly see any real benefit to this skill for a civilian. As a civilian, your 'encounters' are going to statistically be few and far between - and that's if they EVER happen. Compared with a combat situation (where you're going through several magazines on a regular basis) you're not really going to need this kind of a skill. If the two or three magazines that most of us carry with us aren't enough to get you through a situation - then might I suggest that you should have been using those rounds to fight your way back to your car where your carbine should have been.

[OBIWAN]

"Givens told us that no one has ever found a civilian incident of a tac reload."

Not picking on you Glenn...or Mr. Armstrong who regularly repeats that same mantra.

But the question is....do you want to be the first to need it...and not have it?

Statistics are great....but rely on them too much and you will start carrying a rubber gun since so many altercations do not require a shot to be fired

Considering how poor the detail is in some of the records are for law enforcement and you really have to wonder who decides the truth is NOT out there?

And many people (especially those carrying hi caps) carry only one additional magazine. In fact it seems odd to say that civillians are unlikely to need a lot of rounds but are likely to carry 3 mags:confused:

Dumping mag number one ties your fate directly to mag #2

Mr Murphy loves that stuff;)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Obiwan, no one wants to be the first. But there are various skills to practice. I think the point is that some of the complex skills of tactical reloads may not be worth the time as compared to the time one should spend on actually shooting well with the first mag. The debate is the hypothetical vs. what happens and the allocation of training resources.

My takeaway point was that one should always have a loaded gun except at the time of the actual mag drop. Thus, the focus on making sure you have one. Tom specifically said that retaining the mag was important in military paradigms with prolonged firefights and being way from supplies. For the civilian, the mag retention seems not to be a significant part of our ecology.

If it never happens, then the KISS of the speed reload may be probabilistic better and easier to execute. It's the dreaded evaluation of risk.

Anyway, I was just repeating what Tom said and I think I don't want to talk about this today. Nor do I want to talk about movement. Nor caliber. I think I'm going to go over to the Cheese forum and debate why I like extra-aged Appenzeller the best.

Tom also said that J frames were obsolete. The small semis like the Kahrs should take their place.

CPII with Tom and John (www.rangemaster.com) was an awesome course. Very intense and certainly Tom and John gave my insights into some of my myriad flaws that I hadn't gotten from others.