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mitchcoyote
March 21, 2006, 06:59 PM
This is in the SAFETY section of one of my handguns' Owner's Manual, pg.5, warning number 28.
28. DANGER: Don't try to change your firearm's trigger pull, because alteration of trigger pull usually affects sear engagement and may cause accidental discharge.

Lycanthrope
March 21, 2006, 07:01 PM
And to think I paid good money for that Power Custom sear jig......

Never considered myself such a wild risk taker.......

brickeyee
March 21, 2006, 07:43 PM
The lawyers are coming!
The lawyers are coming!
Hide the wife, children, and dogs!
Put the sheep put as a decoy.

A correctly performed trigger job can lower the weight and remain safe.
The biggest request I get is for something with less creep.
Butcher the hammer and sear and you can create problems.

shield20
March 21, 2006, 07:49 PM
That's not bad really - you should read my HK P2000 manual where it says the gun must be cleared 1st before returning it to a holster (several times they explain how "cleared" is unloaded in chamber and mag).

pg 25

croyance
March 21, 2006, 08:49 PM
A good gunsmith should know how light a trigger can be made without causing accidental discharges. They certainly don't set it at the factory at that point or anywhere near that point.
I would be wary of some unknowledgable person doing a trigger job, but that would be true even if the trigger was to be made heavier.

Manuals are interesting things. For one, they would be seen as the official word of a manufacturer and therefore are made with juries in mind. Certainly they never exist to teach or extend wisdom.
Had my learning been only limited to manuals, I would never have learned how to properly clean a gun, for instance.

Ozzieman
March 21, 2006, 09:01 PM
Are you telling us that any modification to the trigger of any gun is dangerous! If you are, it shows how little you know about firearms and firearms competition. There is no such thing as dangerous guns, there are only dangerous gun owners.

rhgunguy
March 21, 2006, 09:25 PM
There is no such thing as dangerous guns, there are only dangerous gun owners.

I beg to differ. I bought a used 14.45 Limited that had a poorly done trigger job. I did a bunch of dry fire drills with it and a few months latter it slam-fired on me when I loaded it at the range. Ripped part of my left thumb-nail off. And hurt like heck for awhile. I seriously doubt anyone could hold me responsible as a dangerous gun-owner for that.

ranburr
March 21, 2006, 11:02 PM
Guys, don't pay attention to mitchcoyote. He seems to go down this road every week or so. I am not sure if he is really this ignorant or if he just likes to stir things up. Do a search on his postings and you will see what I mean. This guy is obviously a "yahoo" of the highest order. Mitchcoyote, you have just about beaten this horse to death. If you are just trying to stir things up, find a new topic. If you really believe this dribble, try and educate yourself. Any way you look at it, you know just enough about guns to be dangerous. Your past postings generally show your ignorance where guns are concerned, not to mention the growing pile of fecal matter they seem to leave.

ranburr

mitchcoyote
March 23, 2006, 12:50 AM
Ranbur, I guess your not going to pay any attention to the post just before yours. Or are you gonna start calling him names like you do me?
Look , if your too immature to handle my threads or posts then stay away from them. Your smartelic and pathetic comments and name calling is not appreciated at all. I am asking you to leave me alone. Thanks.......

Gewehr98
March 23, 2006, 01:20 AM
beg to differ. I bought a used 14.45 Limited that had a poorly done trigger job. I did a bunch of dry fire drills with it and a few months latter it slam-fired on me when I loaded it at the range. Ripped part of my left thumb-nail off. And hurt like heck for awhile. I seriously doubt anyone could hold me responsible as a dangerous gun-owner for that.

When you sent that Para-Ord back to the factory, what did they do, and how was the trigger when you got it back? Or since the gun was used, perhaps the previous owner kitchen-table smithed the trigger without knowing what he was doing? (Which would be a dangerous gun-owner, in and of itself) :confused:

ranburr
March 23, 2006, 01:22 AM
Well mitchcoyote, I guess you could tell your mommy. rhgunguy's post differs from yours in that he understands that there is a difference in a poor and a good trigger job. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is pathetic. If you can't handle a little criticism, don't start such ridiculous threads on subjects that you know nothing about. I stand by my previous statements.:p

ranburr

Wisby
March 23, 2006, 01:27 AM
Maybe if post the same topic once a week for the next year or so it will come true.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201487

WESHOOT2
March 23, 2006, 08:28 AM
What, specifically, makes my 1.5lb-triggered Caspian 1911 unsafe or dangerous?

In over 10,000 rds (to include significant ammo development for 'driving' compensated carry 45's) it has never fired without my intent.

I had (and sold) a Glock M20 with its trigger pull reduced (by me; I was so proud) to under 2lb, and this gun was used extensively in developing ultra-high-performance ammo, and it, too, never fired without my intent.

In fact, of all the guns I've owned, including some real crappers (Sterling, RG), and some real good ones (S&W, Taurus, Ruger, Llama, High Standard, Charter Arms, EAA, Springfield Armory), and ALL the guns I've shot, none have ever fired without my intent.

So, based on some years experience with light triggers on competition guns (others, mostly), and light or lightened triggers on my carry guns ("all my handguns are carry handguns") I am unsure as to why anyone would consider my triggers "unsafe".

Any position offered will need to make sense, though......

DAVID NANCARROW
March 23, 2006, 09:13 AM
mitchcoyote-despite what you read in your manuals, the safe reduction in trigger pull weight is achievable in just about every firearm. This is no rocket science, but just a matter of angles and spring weights.

Mass produced firearms, just like anything piece of machinery which is massed produced, is the result of tolerance stack. The factory is not generally set up to produce really precise trigger pulls because it takes hand fitting of the parts.

That said, unless you understand, or your gunsmith understands what is involved and have the proper tools, jigs and fixtures, its probably safe to assume that not just anyone should be fooling around with the fire control mechanism.

Good example is WESHOOT2. He has obviously mastered and understands what needs to happen in order to acheive a safe, reliable trigger pull.

OTOH, rhgunguy bought a USED pistol which was worked on by someone who did NOT know how to do it-what really disturbs me is that the fella apparently sold the pistol to rhgunguy without telling him. Can't hold the mfgr responsible for that.

Bottom line-if you do not understand what is involved in setting up a light trigger, you should, in the interest of safety, either leave it alone or take your firearm to someone who does if you wish to have a safe, light trigger pull. But to make a blanket statement that all lightened trigger pulls are inherently unsafe tells me that you do not understand what is involved and are speaking of something you do not know. Thats okay-like Will Rogers once said, "Everyone is ignorant, just on different subjects."

Jart
March 23, 2006, 11:25 AM
<sigh>

Two threads in the same forum on the same dead horse? This could test my Goldilocks kumbaya online effervescent personality…

This is in the SAFETY section of one of my handguns' Owner's Manual, pg.5, warning number 28.
28. DANGER: Don't try to change your firearm's trigger pull, because alteration of trigger pull usually affects sear engagement and may cause accidental discharge.

But on the specific topic of manuals, would that be the same manual that has this on page 4, in BOLD?
WARNING:
Securing your firearm may inhibit access to it in a defense situation and result in injury or death.
WARNING:
Failure to properly secure a firearm may result in injury or death.

A cynic might be moved to conclude that one just can’t win with that manual.

Nobody here will deny you your right to prefer triggers dredged directly from the river Styx, complete with silt and gravel, traversing a length more often associated with the pull starter of a chainsaw and employing a return spring from a White Freightliner.

However, convincing anybody else that we should jump on board your bandwagon will, I'm afraid, prove frustrating. For whatever reason, most here will side with Jeff Cooper when his opinions and yours are diametrically opposed. This may even include those instances where you and Taurus' manual are aligned opposite Mr. Cooper.

Trigger-cocking pistols have their place and many prefer them. However, proselytizing on their behalf in general and the PT145 version in particular won't bear much fruit. I'm sure the PT is a fine piece of equipment and we're glad you like it and feel safe with it, but those that have decided it's not the optimum choice for them will not be dissuaded by your safety concerns.

These are not the droids you're looking for.
Move along.

IMHO

rhgunguy
March 23, 2006, 05:22 PM
I took the para back to the shop I bought it from. The owner said he would have it taken care of, no cost to me. He sent it to a guy that has been shooting and working on paras since they were sold as frames. He got it back to working order in a week with a 2-3# trigger pull that breaks like glass.

Consequently, I from here on out I only buy my guns from that shop and only have them worked on by that smith. A properly tuned trigger is a must for competition and is not dangerous to a safe gun owner. When the gun slam-fired it was pointed in a safe direction. As long as you keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, you are fine.

I also shoot a CZ75 in production. The first shoot always gave me trouble. Now I pre-load the trigger past half-cock. I haven't had any ADs doing that. As long as you have trigger control you can have your finger on the trigger with presure.

croyance
March 23, 2006, 08:46 PM
I don't think it is fair to say that most here prefer the SA pull or Jeff Cooper's ideas. Even a DA or DAO trigger can be improved
The interesting thing is that going by that manual, modifying a trigger to be heavier (and grittier or whatever bad characteristics you can think of) is also dangerous.

Safety begins between the ears, nothing will change that.

Ozzieman
March 23, 2006, 09:07 PM
There is no such thing as dangerous guns, there are only dangerous gun owners.
If you were dumb enough to shoot a dangerous gun then the only thing to blame is the person pulling the trigger.
Yes if you let some num nuts do a trigger job its a dangerious gun but again the only one to blame is the person pulling the trigger.
IF you dont like light triggers then you shouldnt handle guns that HAVE light triggers, my suggestion is to buy Hi-points, they seem to be more your speed.

mitchcoyote
March 23, 2006, 11:09 PM
When I joined this forum I improperly assumed a man was intitled to his opinion. I have only offered my opinion and anybody is welcome to counter that opinion . I can even accept criticizing opinions....However personal attacks and name calling is childish and uncalled for... Several of you have become bitterly rude with your comments about me. All I am asking is that the personal attacks stop and entitle me to my own opinion like anyone else who offers their opinion on this forum.....

SteelToe
March 23, 2006, 11:18 PM
When I joined this forum I improperly assumed a man was intitled to his opinion. I have only offered my opinion and anybody is welcome to counter that opinion . I can even accept criticizing opinions....However personal attacks and name calling is childish and uncalled for... Several of you have become bitterly rude with your comments about me. All I am asking is that the personal attacks stop and entitle me to my own opinion like anyone else who offers their opinion on this forum.....

I agree with what you are saying aoung respectng eachother BUT, I bet a lot of people took it as a personal attack when you claimed that competitive shooting was "unsafe".

We as gun people get flack from people left and right all day long. We come here (I think) to be with our own that loves guns as much as we do. It probably came as a shock when you made that post. Maybe you could have just expressed your concern for tigger jobs in general and not attacked the sport itself. See what I am saying?

And on your other post about the manual saying do not do trigger jobs this is ONLY to cover them in the courts. Savage rifles include an accutrigger that can be adjusted down to 1 and 1/2 pound pull for accurate shooting on their rifles. 1 and 1/2 is sasfe for trained shooters but this way they are covered if taken to court they can say they shipped the rifle at 5 pounds. make sense?

This is a day and age where gun makers used to be abke to be sued if someone used their guns in a crime. What sense does that make? (luckily this law has been changed) The warning against trigger jobs in gun manuals is exatly like a cup of coffe from McDonalds saying CAUTION HOT!!

I for one just want to say welcome to the boards. Glad to have ya. Just try to think how things you say come across to others as well. They will do the same.

Peace

rhgunguy
March 23, 2006, 11:38 PM
We are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. My opinion is that trigger jobs-when properly done-are an asset and not unsafe. As I said before, you are a big boy so you are entitled to your opinion. But don't expect to get much support for it when the majority of accomplished shooters are in direct opposition to your opinion.

kozak6
March 24, 2006, 12:11 AM
And yes, the reason the manuals have the warning is indeed liability. If Jim Bob performs a custom Dremel and hacksaw trigger job, and it just happens to slamfire a whole damn magazine, you know he's going to crying to a lawyer. And if the manual doesn't say not to do it, how could poor Jim Bob know any better? It so happens that there are people in the world not terribly fond of gunmakers, so there is a good chance that the gunmaker will either have to eat a settlement, or be found guilty even though they are not at fault.

With a warning, they can point right to it and say "Hey, we told you not to. Too bad."

We are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. My opinion is that trigger jobs-when properly done-are an asset and not unsafe. As I said before, you are a big boy so you are entitled to your opinion. But don't expect to get much support for it when the majority of accomplished shooters are in direct opposition to your opinion.

Well said.

cuate
March 24, 2006, 12:14 AM
mitchcoyote, if you tripped on a washtub handle sticking out of the ground and dug it up to find a tub full of $20 Gold pieces there would be spontanious combustion after you related it to the world over wording. I have done trigger jobs and had them done but luckily mine were okay. Those done on a special jig for that purpose and done by a competant usually turn out with the pull you tell him you want provided you don't ask for one too light. I prefer 3 1/2 to 4 lb. trigger pulls.

"Illigitimus Non Corborundum"

ranburr
March 24, 2006, 12:20 AM
Mitchcoyote, maybe you wouldn't feel so alienated if you picked a different topic. It seems that you bring all of this on yourself. You essentially post the same crap every week and then act offended when you get the same responses. Perhaps you should look at yourself to find the real problem.


ranburr

croyance
March 24, 2006, 01:36 AM
mitchcoyote, you are indeed entitled to your own opinion.
But you do not have any supporting arguements to back up your main point. You answer few, if any, points brought up by others. You started a debate, but don't even acknowledge polite and reasonable points. This in itself is a rudeness, though I don't expect you to answer each and every post.
You offer one statement and one statement only with no deviation or even variety.

So it all looks like an attempt at a Godlike pronouncement.

Many things say you void warrenty if you open it up or otherwise try and fix it. Yet, if work is properly done, they are safe to use.

mitchcoyote
March 24, 2006, 08:54 AM
Much better, thanks for your comments. Points well taken. I can understand that my opinion can be offensive to many shooters here and for that I apologize. If I could have foreseen my opinion being so offensive, I would have kept it to myself. I swear I didn't have any bad intentions......

As for as Ranbur is concerned, your comments were rude, immature, hurtfull, and offensive. You should be ashamed of yourself..............

Double Naught Spy
March 24, 2006, 01:08 PM
Dangerous Trigger Jobs
This is in the SAFETY section of one of my handguns' Owner's Manual, pg.5, warning number 28.
28. DANGER: Don't try to change your firearm's trigger pull, because alteration of trigger pull usually affects sear engagement and may cause accidental discharge.

I don't get it. What point are you trying to make or do you just like copying random text from some random gun owner's manual to share with us?

I really liked how you cited that it was from page 5 and that it was #28. We have no idea what type of gun this is because you didn't actually include any useful or relevant information on that point, but included useless detail such as page # and warning #

Jart
March 24, 2006, 01:54 PM
It's from Taurus' manual. Including, but not limited to, the PT145.

http://www.taurususa.com/pdf/pistol_manual.pdf

Jammer Six
March 24, 2006, 07:44 PM
If I could have foreseen my opinion being so offensive, I would have kept it to myself.
There are only two possibilities:

One, now that you know, you will never start another thread on this issue.

Two, this is a direct, point blank lie. That would make you a liar.

Time will tell. My bet has been placed.

Lycanthrope
March 24, 2006, 11:02 PM
Well, there have been a couple thread on this issue.......

Replies in the future regarding trigger questions pull may warrant further opinion, but starting redundant threads on the issue may be construed as trolling.

ranburr
March 25, 2006, 02:42 AM
Mitchcoyote, thank goodness I really don't care what you think of me. It doesn't say a lot for you that you are so bothered by someone you don't even know on a silly web forum. Perhaps you should consult a self-help/confidence manual. At any rate, for future reference, I suggest you consult the law cases of "I'm rubber your glue" and "I know you are but what am I".:p
Hugs and kisses

ranburr

Bigfatts
March 25, 2006, 08:44 PM
Mitchcoyote, if you don't believe that trigger jobs are safe, that's cool. But note that the manual does NOT say "You should never have a competent Gunsmith change your trigger pull because it can make the gun unsafe and increase the risk of accidental discharge." I believe the warning was meant to keep people that do not know what they are doing to keep from faniggling s**t. As someone said "kitchen table gunsmithing" or something like that. Also, from what I have seen in the local shops lately I believe that alot of the people that are buying guns would be very dangerous with lightened triggers. To each his own.