Ammo Is Improving Rapidly

[Springfield XD40 Man]

Hey guys, I just got the latest issue of handguns magazine. They did an in-depth article on the latest ammo for 9mm and 40 S&W. Buffalo Bore has loaded the 9mm 115 grain +P to 1400 fps and 500 ft lbs energy, the 40 S&W 155 grain to 1300 fps and 582 ft lbs energy. These are some serious loads with hollowpoints. Ammo has come a long way in the last year or so. Now the 9mm is a major player. I'll probably get some of this stuff for my 40.:D

[MuthaGoose]

Evaluating a load's effectiveness based solely on its energy and velocity is a poor way of determining its terminal effectiveness. Bullet designs have advanced to the point that reliable expansion and penetration can be achieved even at "lower" speeds.

For example, calibrated ballistics gelatin tests show that a quality 147 grain 9mm bullet has comparable terminal effects as a 124 grain+P bullet of the same manufacture.

In the end, why pay more money to tear up your gun and have increased recoil when you can get the same effects for cheaper and have faster followups? :confused:

Am I missing something?

[Springfield XD40 Man]

Buffalo Bore loads their ammo to standard pressure with low flash powders. Its no harder on the gun than any other typical ammo. www.buffalobore.com.:D They've got 357 magnum loaded to 1475 fps and 765 ft lbs!:eek:

[Springfield XD40 Man]

I'm gonna buy some of this stuff for my 40, it will be my day hike companion out here in Colorado this summer. My 357 is a bit on the heavy side. I figure this 40 load would take care of any two or four legged critters I'm likely to encounter.

[MuthaGoose]

Buffalo Bore loads their ammo to standard pressure with low flash powders. Its no harder on the gun than any other typical ammo.


Looking at their 9mm loads, they are +P and +P+ loads which according to SAAMI means they are loaded to higher-than-standard pressures (c'mon man, that's what +P and +P+ means!). Simple physics dictate that a projectile with faster velocity will have a sharper recoil. (assuming the bullet weighs the same). It is definitely harder on your gun than cartridges loaded to "standard" velocity.

Low flash powders simply means there's not as much muzzle flash, not that the gun recoils the same as a standard-pressure load. Other quality JHP ammunition manufactuers also use low flash powders in their loads.

[Springfield XD40 Man]

Any 9mm handgun capable of handling +p or +P+ amm will take the buffalo bore just fine. Since there is no +p ammo for the 40, it is loaded to standard ammo pressures for that caliber. Your right, +P does dictate increased pressure, but its probably no worse than any other +p round out there. Go to the website www.buffalobore.com and read the fine print underneath the ballistics tables, all the info is right there. Regardless, if my life depends on the gun and the bullet, I want the highest performance ammo available, this stuff seems to be it. It probably wont hurt my gun, if I have to fire this stuff, it will only be a few rounds. Its not like I'm going to shoot several hundred rounds, not at $21 per 20 rounds.:p

[Springfield XD40 Man]

One more thing, I'm not afraid of recoil.:D

[Mosin44az]

XD40man, not sure if a .40 is enough for Black Bear, but they are rarely dangerous anyway. Should be enough for a mountain lion, if you see it coming!

[Springfield XD40 Man]

Hey Mozin, black bear country will require the service of my 357 magnum, loaded up with some hot 158 grain soft points, should do the trick.:D

[MTMilitiaman]

See that is just it, there is no SAAMI guidelines for +P ammunition in the .40 Smith and Wesson, but that doesn't keep people from trying. Buffalo Bore labels the ammo you described as being +P. They also claim that the ammo is safe for any modern pistol in good condition, offering full case support. The trouble here is that the two are contradictory. If the ammo is indeed +P, then it is loaded over the SAAMI guidelines for the cartridge and subsequently, no modern pistol of any make is designed to take a steady diet of this ammo, regardless of case support. Or they could be marketing it as +P as a sales gimic to impress utter morons. Either way, it is dangerous, and foolish, and I would tend not to trust such a company.

This is the reason I laugh at the .40 fans. They try so hard to turn their cartridge into something it is not. All you have to do if you want to push a 155 gr Speer JHP at 1400 fps is download a 10mm Auto. Presto. Same ballistics, but less pressure, and in a pistol meant to take full power 10mms, less recoil. It is a lot easier to download a 10mm Auto to .40 specs than it is to try and turn your .40 into a 10mm Auto.

Consequentially, those responsible for the second warning claim to be unaware of any pistol lacking case support like the Glock. They must not have looked very hard. The Glock has all the support of some other popular pistol designs, including a lot of 1911s. The only difference with the Glock is that the chamber is not as tight. This is done to help improve feeding, but it can have an adverse affect on case life. The only time this is a problem is when people try to turn their guns into something they aren't and monkey handloaders attempting atomic level loads. In these cases, yes, and aftermarket barrel is recommended. It might be cheaper and is certainly more adviseable, however, to just not be a retard.

[OBIWAN]

"Its not like I'm going to shoot several hundred rounds, not at $21 per 20 rounds"

I would respectfully submit that the old "practice with WWB and carry +P, +P+" is one of the better reasons not to bother with those higher pressure rounds.

Standard pressure loads perform just fine....and you can practice with virtually the same ammo that you carry.

If you want the (slightly) increased velocity for some reason , consider a .357 Sig

[Greg Bell]

I love the velocity wars. When I was young I thought +P was just getting to be the rage. But further reading revealed that Hi-Vel had done it in the 70s. I have a hard time believing that +P 9mm rounds are not more effective than standard pressure rounds. It seems to me that +P (in 9mm) just brings it closer to .357 magnum performance, which is pretty universally recognized as outstanding. I myself welcome a 1300fps 124 grain 9mm round for my nines.

I shoot, at minimum, 600 rounds a week through my pistols (all together, not separately :D) . I think worries about gun wear are greatly exaggerated. Frankly, if you shoot .40 or .357 SIG, the recoil of +P 9mm is nothing remarkable.

[Springfield XD40 Man]

If bufffalo bore ammo had a record of blowing up guns, they wouldn't be in business.:p They have plenty of testimonials of people swearing by the stuff. I know what you'll say, dont believe everything you read, but it seems legit to me.

[Springfield XD40 Man]

One more thing, most people dont enjoy the 10mm because of its stiff recoil. The 40 is less powerfull, but the spread is not extreme. I would say most people can shoot a 40 better, due its recoil being more manageable. I think the 40 has some room to be loaded pretty hot, and still be safe. Its pressure ceiling is about 35,000 psi. Compared to the 9mm, the 40 offers a noticeable jump in power, plus it makes a bigger hole.:D

[JR47]

The .40 S&W was designed to fit into 9mm platforms. It's shorter than the 10mm. This allows it to be available in many more styles than the 10mm. The 10mm handgun holds fewer rounds, and has a larger grip. You pay your money, and take your pick.

American manufacturers have been downloading cartridges for years. Ostensibly to "protect older weapons". This may be helpful in some older rifles, from the black-powder era, or early revolvers from the same period, or just after. However, the 9mm, and the .45 ACP for that matter, have always been available with modern materials. Downloading them seems more to be a measure to squeeze a few more loads out of a pound of powder, than a safety measure. CIP loads, from Europe, are noticeably warmer, but have no reputation for blowing up weapons.:)

[garrettwc]

Evaluating a load's effectiveness based solely on its energy and velocity is a poor way of determining its terminal effectiveness. Bullet designs have advanced to the point that reliable expansion and penetration can be achieved even at "lower" speeds.

For example, calibrated ballistics gelatin tests show that a quality 147 grain 9mm bullet has comparable terminal effects as a 124 grain+P bullet of the same manufacture.

In the end, why pay more money to tear up your gun and have increased recoil when you can get the same effects for cheaper and have faster followups?

Am I missing something?

Nope, you're not missing a thing. Your comments are spot on.

[MTMilitiaman]

The 10mm Auto does not have less capacity than a comparibly designed .40 Smith and Wesson, and suggesting it does is counter-intuitive since they are based on the same case. The 10mm will have a longer grip, but nothing absurd or ridiculous. What I don't understand, JR, is how to can know the .40 was designed to fit in a smaller platform yet still believe that it has less recoil when loaded so hot.
XD40, have you ever even shot the 10mm Auto? In my Glock 20, recoil is comparible to that of your typical .45 in a 1911. It is quite manageable, enough so that I had a friend of mine doing very well with my practice loads, shooting a 180 gr FMJ at 1250 fps her first time out. She is about 5'6". Trying to match this kind of power in a smaller platform is only going to increase muzzle flip and recoil. My only experience with the .40 Smith and Wesson was about half a mag of Gold Dots through a XD40 Compact that my friend carries CCW. I gave it back to him and went back to my Glock 20. The muzzle flip on the XD was noticeably more snappy and severe than that of my Glock, even though my Glock pushed a bullet of the same weight at least 200 fps faster than his.
The .40 can't legitimately get within 200 fps of the 10mm Auto with any bullet weight and in my experience, actually has more muzzle flip. Sounds lose-lose to me, but hey, it's your ass.

[MikeOrick]

The SAAMI pressure limit for 9x19 is 35,000 psi. The SAAMI +P limit is 38,500 psi. SAAMI +P is "standard" ammo if ya know what I mean (+P is a SAAMI standard).

The CIP limit for 9x19 is 270 mPa, a little higher than the SAAMI +P limit, and just about 2% less than the SAAMI 357SIG limit of 40,000 psi. Some mil-spec and US LEO +P+ 9x19 ammo is loaded higher than 40,000 psi, higher than the 357SIG limit.

Pressure isn't everything. If Buffalo Bore could load a 124 9mm at 3000 fps at less than standard pressure, it would still beat your gun to death. There is a reason why 40/357 SIG pistols have heavier slides and/or springs than the 9s, even though some 9s operate at higher pressures than both.

This stuff may not break your gun, but it is gonna be harder on them even at the same pressure.

[Springfield XD40 Man]

Hey mtm, it must be a matter of different perception. I've fired a 5 inch 10mm 1911 style gun and did not care for it, stiff recoil that actually hurt my wrist after a couple of clips. I have a service size xd40 and a taurus mil pro compact, since I've been shooting the 40 for seven years now, I'm adjusted to its recoil. Surprisingly, my mil pro recoils less than the xd, its a smaller, lighter gun. I can shoot my 40's for 100 rounds and not even start to become uncomfortable, granted these loads are fmj 180's at about 950 fps. For the record, I have fired some uploaded 155 grain bullets, the recoil was "snappy", but not an issue in my opinion. The FBI dumped the full power 10mm because quite a few of their agents didn't like the recoil, hence the 40 was born and fit their requirements perfectly.

[MTMilitiaman]

If you're a 5'2" desk jockey, I guess the .40 Smith and Wesson is a perfect fit.

I've seen 16 year old girls do just fine with the 10mm out of the Glock. So I guess the rest of us could be better suited with something the real deal.

BTW, I don't know how much full power 10mm I would want to try from a 1911 either. The grip is so narrow on my brother's Springfield that even the .45 can get uncomfortable. I have big enough hands that I get along fine with the large double column grip of the G20.

[Springfield XD40 Man]

Like you said before mtm, there's a packaging advantage to the 40, its chambered in 9mm sized guns and there are many more configurations. Unless you download the 10mm, its actually overpowered for self defense...overpenetration. I think the 10mm would be an excellent alternative to 41 magnum revolvers, it has almost as much power, but superior capacity. In reality, there is no magic caliber or bullet. There are plenty of stories of assailants hit with 9mm 10 times and he's still standing, same goes for the 45. There have been cases where assailants have been hit with a 45 four or 5 times and their still wreaking havoc. Massad ayoob has horror stories on just about every caliber. Bottom line, the caliber wars are pointless, no magic bullet.

[MTMilitiaman]

Caliber wars? Pointless? Noooooo...

But they are so much fun :D

[WESHOOT2]

115s at 1400+, 135s at 1300+, 155s at 1550+, 230s at 780--800.

BuffaloBore is not the first, but IMO is currently the 'best'.

The 10mm is crap, the 40 S&W is establishing a street record (as is the more-effective??? 357 SIG), where's the 41 AE, and I still wear a 22.

As always (buncha dinks): "caliber of shooter" :cool:


"......still echoing......"

:D