45ACP +P and 45ACP JHP, is it necessay

[tom650604]

I always wonder.... is it necessary to have 45ACP +P and 45ACP JHP. I think that 45ACP FMJ should be enough to drop any BGs (human) with 1 or 2 shots straight thru the chest. So, I'm thinking that manufacture are making the 45ACP +P and JHP for variety perpose only. Unless someone can explain to me, I don't want to spend the extra money? For hunting I can understand, but for self defense, I think the FMJ will do the job flawless.

[dave0520]

Yes, it is necessary. Not just for expansion, but to keep the bullet from exiting and causing innocent casaulties. There's not to much difference in size between 9mm and .45 ACP, .09 inches isn't that much when you think about it, but when the bullet expands to .7 or .8 inches, that's a pretty big difference.

[PeterGunn]

If your pistol will reliably feed JHP, I cannot think of a single reason NOT to carry JHP. Keep in mind that in close quarters over penetration is a factor to consider... plus why would you not want the added advantage of using an HP? Everyone that has shared with me an experience has told me it isn't going to be like at the range with them standing 25' away holding still for you to shoot them in the chest.

Use HP.

Blessings

[ClarkEMyers]

I've been known to figure ball was good enough when it was all I had handy. On the other hand my preferred carry is 9X23 where the Silvertip is a high pressure hollow point. Some of the trick bullets in .45ACP perform better in acceptance testing for assorted leo contracts so I wouldn't see them as a conspiracy to take money from the unwary but an effort to meet needs. Capitalism works.

[JR47]

.45 ball punches a .452" hole in the body. .45 JHP expands to nearly .60" in some cases, usually to at least .53". Look at your body, then tell us which size hole could more likely be used to hit a target in a vital spot. Which would be more likely to quickly cause a pneumothorax condition? The idea is to make them STOP. You could care less if they're dead, as long as they cease trying to hurt you. Bigger IS better, sir.:)

[cje1980]

45 ball punches a .452" hole in the body. .45 JHP expands to nearly .60" in some cases, usually to at least .53".

I think you're thinking of 9mm expansion figures. 45ACP JHPs typically expand to over .70 and sometimes over .80".

tom, when FMJ is used human tissue closes to about 30% of what the initial hole was. So basically the 45ACP when using ball would make a permanent hole of about .31 and a 9mm would make a permanent hole of .25". Do you see why non-expanding pistol rounds are bad stoppers now? Don't be so sure that 1-2 rds of .45 ball ammo will immediately stop an incident. That kind of thinking can get you into serious trouble. Always use the best ammo that you can and always shoot until the threat stops, no matter what you are shooting. Rifles and shotguns have failed to immediately stop people from time to time.

[JR47]

I was being conservative, as there are always people who will argue about the higher expansion rates.:)

[michael t]

I see no need for +P as far as HP yes Ithink they serve a purpose. I don't count on expansion . Read several times where they failed to expand but stayed in target.
I think +P just extra wear and tear on pidtol and not needed I tried 1 box of +P and Never again.

[chrisandclauida2]

one word. liability. if you carry fmj you will over penetrate and then you will have liability

[Minator]

with the grainage we have now +p is kind of obsolete unless your using a barrel under 3 inches it just forces the bullet it out faster which in 9mm I would rather have more force than speed which is why i use 147gr and I go with Hornandy taps in 230gr with my .45

[Topthis]

How accurate are you with your .45? If you are able to control your weapon and are accurate with it...then any round will suffice. I use 230gr FMJ's with my .45, I hit everything that I aim at, my groups are 3" easily up to 15yrds. Personally I am not worried about JHP's, FMJ's, EFMJ's, 200gr,230gr etc.

[Minator]

I can keep it in a 2" grouping with triple tap , but I still use hollow points hollow points will sometimes still over penetrate but not as frequent or as bad as a FMJ, which is why they brought up a very important factor it doesnt matter if you were defending your life if your bullet passes through the BG and kills a person in the next house its still invo. manslaughter so if your seriously carrying for CCW you should consider JHP, thats one of the other reasons besides increased so called "stopping power" why they are still necesary<--(tom spelled it wrong and now I cant rember correct spelling :))

[chrisandclauida2]

the point isn't hitting what you aim at. the issue in this case is over penetration. fmj 45 are notorious for over penetration. so you are a number one super man dead ey crack shot kill-em Joe. i am happy and proud of you.you shot and killed the bad guy but you also go to jail for killing the innocent behind the bad guy cause you feel macho using fmj. i hope you feel as much a man when your doing 7 years for manslaughter cause you made a misinformed piss poor choice in your weapon ammo combo.

grow up people. we have a responsibility to properly and diligently make informed choices when we carry. the my grandpa carried ball ammo and it worked for him so will i argument shows only an immature and uneducated person.

i gotta tell you. i am better than most when it comes to accuracy. but i know this don't mean ****. when stress and preservation are in the mix you will be lucky if you hit a third of your shots. shooting paper isn't like when you or a loved ones life is on the line. why do you think so many rounds are fired during incidents. leo,s are mostly proficient shots. so why does a cop who can shoot expert or better have to shoot 10 rounds and half hit the ground as he is drawing. we all have seen videos of 20 or 30 rounds being exchanged at ten feet and no one gets hit. so saying your an expert shot doesnt mean crap.

people who carry for self and 3rd part defense should do all they can to be safe. you have to think out every scenario and what ifs. go thru what your gun bullet combo can do. what has happened during other shootings with a 45 and fmj . well if they over penetrate then you shouldn't carry that combo. you are responsible fro every round you fire. would you knowingly kill the guy sitting across the room. of course not so what doll the dice by using a round that goes thru people. if you do and knowing do so then you probably shouldn't be carrying. it just shows your reckless and that is something you cant be when carrying a weapon.

[tom650604]

Looks like some of the response do make sense and it would good to carry JHP or +P rounds instead of your normal FMJ rounds. However, how good is JHP on a normal house walls. I remember one of Clint Eastwood movie, where he was in a gun fight with a BG and the BG keeps ducking behind doors, walls, etc. Clint, shot the wall where the BG was behind with his 44mag and knock the BG down with no problem. That being said, is that just in the movies or is it a good idea to carry something like that, so if you do get in a gun fight, shooting thru walls may come in handy?

[chrisandclauida2]

your not going to have any problem shooting thru drywall. studs will stop most rounds regardess of caliber. i wouldnt worry about it though as it probably isnt wise to do so.

[Rivers]

Other than "I think," from what empirical data are you drawing your conclusions?

[Minator]

www.theboxotruth.com <---- penetration test on almost everything with everything and even and the only thing thats gonna go completely through a house in a pistol is an encore 45-70

[TX_RGR]

Get 230 grain JHP in +P. That way, you are essentially carrying your 230 gr. FMJ ammo, plus an added bonus of expansion, should it occur, with identical penetration (+P loading). A win-win.

As for overpenetration, too much is made of it. Anyone using a little common sense will quickly realize that the biggest risk to innocent bystanders comes from a miss, something that is much more likely. An underloaded bullet will not stop simply because it missed its target.

[TBT]

I’m a little confused in this thread. All I have ever heard in arguments for the 40SW over the 45 was that the 45 was big and slow and didn’t penetrate enough. Well, if the 45 “blasts through bag guys” and right into innocent bystanders … it would seem that anything faster than the 45 would surely be overkill. Right?

Here is something that I have often thought about. Can it be said, for certain, that hollow points in general have more feeding problems than ball ammunition (I don’t know, I’m just asking)? If that is the case then even in guns that “do feed” HP ammo, wouldn’t your chance of failure be higher than with ball? Just looking at the bullets leads me to believe that one would have a greater chance of issue with HP than FMJ.

And if that is true, and it is true that in defensive situations reliability is paramount to any other consideration … wouldn’t the informed decision be to choose FMJ?

No flames here … I’m really just asking questions for the sake of argument.

[TX_RGR]

I'd say you're pretty much right on with every concern. FMJ is inherently more reliable to feed. Some guns, however, have zero issues with both. And for the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with ball ammo. The only thing I would take issue with was your seemingly equating speed with penetration. Speed is one factor of many when it comes to that. You've got SD, BC, NBC, CBS and Fox to think about. :)

[TBT]

I know very little about "why something penatrates" beyond what I have heard. :)

[Ares45]

I don't carry +P for the simple reason that I want a controlable handgun. Sure I can drive the heck out of my USP 45 with +P ammo but I'm even better with regular old 230gr gold dots.

I don't see why you wouldn't carry JHP's in your weapon assuming they function reliably. While it is true that JHP's don't always perform consistantly, they do work well most of the time so I say grab any advantage you can get.

[TBT]

I'm just not sure that "most of the time" is good enough for self defense.

[knightkrawler00]

I'm just not sure that "most of the time" is good enough for self defense

I would think that "most of the time" is a whole lot better than, say, never. But that's just me thinking out loud.

[porkskin]

clint smith carries fmj in his 1911 for what it is worth. a fact.

[shield20]

Weird - recent Taylor article explains how 45 FMJ really does NOT typically over-penetrate. Out of 5 shootings he personally had with ball, only one went thru and thru - and the slug was found on the floor near the dead guy.

SOOO... IS 45 a notorious over-penetrator or not??? Other REAL stats anyone??

I would carry JHP for the extra expansion, and not worry so much about overpenetration.

[chrisandclauida2]

i say that 20 percent is too much for me. i think the actual numbers are higher but for discussion we will take the 20 percent as stated in the post.
why take the chance.

take way the over penetration issue the up side of modern hollow point self defence ammo is huge. the power dumped into the subject and trauma from mushrooming and disintegrating rounds is a huge factor when deciding the ammo.

the only reason ball ammo is still used by the military is the prohibition against unusual wounding or suffering. it just isn't practical today to use ball ammo.

[Joe D]

Why not use a HP? A larger hole is always better. Modern ammo is designed to work at sub +P velocity. Besides a .45ACP will knock the BG off his feet and send him sailing through the air. I know this to be a fact as I saw Bruce Willis do it in a movie. He was shooting two 1911's at the same time.

[TBT]

I would think that "most of the time" is a whole lot better than, say, never. But that's just me thinking out loud.

Ah, yeah? Of course? What were you pointing to? Maybe I missed something.

[TBT]

Why not use a HP? A larger hole is always better.

I can't think of one single reason outside of reliability concerns. And I'm not even saying that those concerns are really justified either.

[918v]

recent Taylor article explains how 45 FMJ really does NOT typically over-penetrate. Out of 5 shootings he personally had with ball, only one went thru and thru - and the slug was found on the floor near the dead guy.


This confirms my suspicion that the human body offers alot of resistance for a handgun projectile. All this panick about bullets whizzing through and killing innocent bystanders is just BS.

Still, I'd want an expanding bullet, something that expands to at least full caliber and offers at least 18" to reach the vitals from any angle. SWC?

[cma g21]

Originally Posted by Ares45
I don't see why you wouldn't carry JHP's in your weapon assuming they function reliably. While it is true that JHP's don't always perform consistantly, they do work well most of the time so I say grab any advantage you can get.


Originally Posted by knightkrawler00
I would think that "most of the time" is a whole lot better than, say, never. But that's just me thinking out loud.

Originally Posted by TBT
Ah, yeah? Of course? What were you pointing to? Maybe I missed something.

TBT, by "work well most of the time," I think Ares45 and knightkrawler00 mean JHP's expand, "most of the time."

[TBT]

cma, I think your right. When I read "they do work well most of the time" I took that as actually feeding and firing and not expansion etc. I think your right though as far as the point he was getting at. Seems I read it wrong.

[Marcus]

Another factor I haven`t seen anyone mention is that round nosed ball ammo can have a tendency to glance off of hard rounded surfaces,like skulls and heavy bones. JHPs tend to catch and turn into the target instead.
Also ask yourself this,what will tear and damage more soft tissue,blood vessles etc.? A smooth rounded FMJ bullet or a jagged irregular mushroom shape,each spinning at 15,000RPM.?
IMO as hardball goes .45ACP is certainly among the best but you can do better.
It`s kinda like saying a lap belt in my car is good enough to keep me from getting hurt in an accident. I don`t *need* a shoulder harness or airbags so I`m gonna take them out of my car. Marcus

[TBT]

I don't think anyone is agrueing that FMJ is better than JHP though.