My first shotgun--OUCH! Help!

[Mummer]

I've been a handgunner for years, but picked up my first ever shotgun a few days ago. It is a FABARM 12 gauge tactical semi-auto model imported by HK. Gun dealer says it is a police overrun (hype?). I have it set-up with a rear pistol grip. It came with a shoulder stock as well. I added a pistol grip to the front and went off to the range. Dang! Maybe I am a wimp, but the kick is unbearable. With normal 4 buck shells. I really enjoy shooting my .454 Raging Bull, but this experience is exponentially harsher. I'm pretty disappointed, because there is NO WAY I am going to shoot this gun on a regular basis, and that means I won't use it for Home Defense. And since I don't hunt, it is worthless to me. While at the range, I tried a pump action 20 gauge with a shoulder stock. Sure it kicked some, but it was a controllable and even fairly fun experience. That 12 gauge is EVIL! So:

How much of this insane kick problem is because of the rear pistol grip? Would putting the shoulder stock back on the FABARM make a meaningful difference in the kick?

I really would prefer a rear pistol grip set-up. :eek: Should I get a 20 gauge instead?

Thank you so much in advance for your advice.

[sne7777]

If you are going to shoot this gun on a regular basis, put the full stocks back on. A 20ga. will have less recoil with the pistol grips, if you shoot it alot it is sill going to hurt.
Pistol grips are for the movies.

[feralBoy]

My dad bought a Mossberg 590 with a pistol grip about 15 years ago. He had it for home protection and maybe shot it once. After he died, I took possesion of the gun and took it to a range. It was indoor, so I was only allowed to fire slugs. I seriously thought I broke my wrist. I was also shooting all the lines down because I had to shoot from the hip and angle it up. Everyone at the range was laughing.

I ordered a shoulder stock online and I love shooting the gun now. It's much, much easier to fire and be accurate. No more wrist pain as well. I don't think there is any reason to own a pistol grip on a 12 gauge. I definitely wouldn't trust myself with it when if my life depended on it.

If you really want it as a pistol grip, there will be no changing your mind, but a shoulder stock is a much better idea.

[Mummer]

Oh no, I am NOT going to be stubborn about the pistol grip. That's why I'm so grateful for everyone's input. If there is a large consensus that the pistol grip, rather than the larger gauge is what's making shooting the thing so harsh, then bye-bye pistol grip...

[dave0520]

Yes, pistol grip = pain. Pain = flinch. Flinch = inaccuracy.

[Dave McC]

For over 5 years, I've posted this challenge....

We shoot any COF, any distance, any number of shots. You pick the ammo, targets and setup.

You use a PG only shotgun with any and all accessories you desire. Belt feed, lazers, radar, anything.

I shoot a short barrelled 870 with a standard stock.

Score determines the winner, time decides ties, but there won't be one. Results published rat cheer and on THR.

After 5 years, no takers. I don't expect any.

Here's the deal. A PG only shotgun is but a large, ungainly handgun of great power, limited accuracy and capable of creating carpal tunnel in a twinkling.

I know whereof I speak. I was paid to shoot PG only shotguns and teach others to do so.

Put a real stock on that thing and practice some. You'll be deadly is a short time and able to sell that PG off to someone you don't like.....

[Badreno]

Don't listen to these guys. The FABARM is an evil firearm of dangerous construction, but since I'm a nice guy I'll take it off your hands for $150.00 and you can buy a Mossy or Remington 20ga.:D

But seriously, I would strongly recomend loosing the PG on the 12 gauge. They are all for show. They make control of your shotgun almost impossible. Go back to butt stock and start out with 7 1/2 - 8 shot field loads to get use to how it handles then work up to the heavier loads. I promise you will love that shotgun. FABARM's are fantastic firearms.

If you do this and still don't agree....the $150.00 is just sitting here waiting for you.;)

[warwagon]

Just a small pice of advice. When you do get that stock,be sure to tuck it firmly to your shoulder. A gap between the stock, & shoulder, will result in a feeling resembeling a punch, rather than the push that a tighter hold will afford.

Good luck, and happy shotgunning!
Blair

[Mummer]

Thanks so much for everyone's help. My eyes have been opened to the poseur-ness of the pistol grip. I shot the FABARM with the shoulder stock, and I was real careful to snug it up against my shoulder as suggested. Clearly far less brutal than the pistol grip, but still pretty annoying. Since I want to shoot the gun with some regularity, it looks like I may be getting a (please hold your "girlyman accusations" 20 gauge. I'll ask for advice on that in another thread.

Thanks again, I should have come here BEFORE buying. And there may be a 12 gauge FABARM tactical semi-auto offered for sale real soon...

[MarkTT]

i found the pistol grip more pleasant to shoot over a shoulder stock. not arguing which is more accurate and controllable, that much is obvious. pistol grip is still fun to play with though :cool:

[woodland]

The only thing PG shottys are good for is maybe in a very limited space situation. I had my 870 set up that way when I was working in a remote camp in AK. It was only my "tent gun." I didn't carry it around anywhere, it just layed right beside me on my cot in my tent in case of any late night furry visiters. For that, it was great. But yeah, it hurt like the dickens to shoot!

[Dave McC]

Don't change your shotgun. Change your ammo, fit, form and mindset.

The archives here have tons of stuff on how and what to do.

Use light loads, learn how to hold the thing, and don't buy accessories. Just buy ammo, light field or target loads and go from there. Walk before running.

[craigntx]

does the fabram have a buttpad as thick as that on a rem 870?
you could prolly install a thicker one if it dosent....

[Hello123]

Shoulder stock with a limb saver pad is the best option going next to a knoxx compstock.

[HappyGunner]

Buy reduced load shells they work just as well a normal shells. Get a slipon rubber stock recoil boot. I used one on my HK91 308 worked great.:)

[David Berkowitz]

Mummer,
Dave McC has the right answer on the equipment.
The ammo you are using is essentially, comparable to "magnum".
I don't know about getting light loads, probably a smart way to get used to the shotgun, then move up to field hunting loads.
Depending on how your home is contructed, this may actually be better to use than heavy buckshot loads.
A 20 gauge will give you nothing that you can't get with a 12 gauge. The 20 is lighter and you will feel more recoil with comparable ammo. You are more limited on ammo choices and how you will use the gun.
Over all, the 12 is a much better choice, except for light field hunting, and I don't think that is what you intend.
As for quality, they don't get much better than Fabarm.
I'd strongly encourage you to learn to use it. It is a learning issue, not equipment issue. After you give it a fair trial and you still want to sell it, just post it here. Ought to take about 5 minutes before it is gone. And there is a reason for that.

[pwelsh4hd]

+1......put me in line as a "buyer" if you decide that Fabarm is not for you..I'd definitely be interested in it ! :D
In the meantime...you might try using some Remington "Reduced Recoil" buckshot loads. I find them to be a much more tolerable recoil.

[Fremmer]

1. Stick with the 12 gauge;

2. Order a Walnut stock for it (no plastic);

3. Put a thick recoil pad on the stock; and

4. Order a shoulder pad, and wear that while practicing. Midway is having a sale on the shoulder pads; check them out here. (http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=4&Categoryid=9210&categorystring=655***688***)

Hope that helps!

[urbanassault]

I think if you put a regular stock on it you will want your pistol grip back, the pistol grip is not just for the movies it (depending on shooter) can actually make it easier to shoot with quicker target aquisition (why do the ar-15,m-16,ak,etc. have pistol grips? Just to be stereotypical? Nope) The increased recoil is partiall because the stocks are lighter than your stock wood one and probably has a smaller pad on the butt. You could also just not be holding it tight enough. And yeah a slug in a 12 guage is going to kick HARD duh, its not a .22 and a 20 guage kicks less????? Uhhh.... yeah. Dont get a 20guage if you cannot handle the recoil get a semi auto (1187) that has much less recoil. And much more fun to shoot and I think you can get a pistol grip with that too, will be a blast to shoot!!!

[FirstFreedom]

I have it set-up with a rear pistol grip. It came with a shoulder stock as well.

OK, wait a sec. Is said pistol grip ADDED to, or a substitute for, said shoulder stock that came with? IOW:

1. Are you shooting it (a) PG only, or (b) with BOTH pistol grip & buttstock into your shoulder?

and

2. If the latter, does it hurt (a) shoulder only, (b) wrist/hand, or (c) BOTH?

While yes it is true that shoulder-stock is vastly superior to a PG only, it cannot necessarily be said, IMO, that the shoulder-stock-only is superior to shoulder stock PLUS pistol grip. If held correctly when firing, the recoil is distributed & absorbed better through 2 points than 1 with a pistol grip. But it depends on the answers to 1 and 2 above - where does it hurt exactly.

I would also recommend first trying the so-called "tactical" 2.75" loads - these are very light compared to most - before changing anything. Also make sure your grips are tight and evenly distributed (the pressure) as between the p-grip and the buttstock. It *shouldn't* be that bad at all, esp. with a semi-auto. But also, as others have said, what kind of recoil pad is on it, if any (assuming you're shooting it with both p-grip and buttstock, which is not clear from your post).

[urbanassault]

My mistake I did not see that it was a semi, ignore that part of my last post. :o

[gdeal]

a pistol grip has no business being on a shotgun. a shotgun is supposed to be shoulder fired not hip fired. get convetional. get back to the basics.

[urbanassault]

Having a pistol grip on a shotgun does not mean you shoot it from the hip, that is the stereotypical nonsense that you get from movies. Do you shoot an AR or AK from the hip? A pistol grip on a shotgun is not for everyone but I personally like it better, it feels better for some people. Use what works, if you dont like a pistol grip dont use it, dont force your ideas on other people especially dumb ones like that. Lets not jump on other people rather just put out some constructive comments to help other people figure out their problem so take it easy gdeal before you have a heart attack. "The idea of color televisions in every household is ridiculous" ;)

[urbanassault]

If a shotgun/rifle with a pistol grip is such a bad idea, why would the only people who have to SHOOT other people for a living use them (ie. police, military)?

[Fremmer]

Now that I think about it, I've never seen a Police shotgun with a pistol grip. The ones that I've seen are almost always Remington 870's with a standard wood stock.

[urbanassault]

Hmm...maybe you should look harder, check this one out http://www.remingtonle.com/ or look into a squad car once, try that too. Also have you seen an AR-15 in a squad, cuz I have.
Heres another one from a LE officer on a LE forum

coming from the UK we arn't really trusted with much, but in answer to Darecops Question
I do have some experiance. We do a thing over here called pratical shotgun, run along IPSA type rules and I use a Remington 11/87(the parkerised finished type)a 30 inch tube, compensator/ muzzel brake, speedfeed pistol stock, customised loading hatch, extended safety and wait for it...a 14 round mag, giving a max capacity of 15 x 2 3/4 loads of bird shot or 14 OO buck. a bit big for a squad car but Choate and Speedfeed make some good add-ons. Why bother with the ring sights - at the ranges expeced they must slow you down some?
Take care
Mike

[urbanassault]

Why do I want AR-15 furniture on a shotgun?
The first reason you might look at AR-15 stocks and grips for a shotgun is because you want a pistol grip stock system. A pistol grip is well suited for tactical applications, as it allows the shooter to keep the weapon close to the body and ready for instant use, while keeping the arms close in at the same time. The AR-15 just happens to have the most commonly used pistol grip arrangement for long guns in America. Many stock and grip combinations are available for the AR-15, making it a very versatile platform.

M16 rifles and M4 carbines, as well as AR-15s, can be fitted with telescoping stocks, and these stocks are widely available. Telescoping stocks are especially useful with tactical shotguns that are used with body armor, in vehicles or other confined spaces or by women or smaller men.

There is a number of special-purpose folding stocks and pistol grip stocks for shotguns on the market, most of which do what an AR-15 stock and grip can do. The advantage of using an AR-15 stock and grip on a shotgun, however, is the availability of many different options and combinations, most of which have been battle-proven in military applications. Also, departments or agencies that switch between AR-15s and shotguns for various tactical situations will appreciate the easy transition from an AR-15 to a shotgun equipped with AR-15 furniture.http://www.mesatactical.com/information.php?info_id=6#0050

[Dave R]

Since I want to shoot the gun with some regularity, it looks like I may be getting a (please hold your "girlyman accusations" 20 gauge. I'll ask for advice on that in another thread. Before you decide to trade in your 12ga. for a 20, shoot some lighter loads, first, as others have suggested.

The 12ga. will give you more versatility. There are light 12ga. loads that will give less recoil than stiff 20ga. loads. And you preserve the option to use heavier loads if you ever decide to hunt geese or whatever.

And, IMHO, a recoil pad is mandatory on a shotgun. Why hurt if you don't have to?

FWIW, the heaviest recoil I ever experienced in my life was a 3" magnum buckshot load from my Rem 870. No more of that for me. When I shoot 3" steel duck loads, I never notice recoil, probably from the excitement of hunting. When I shoot clays with a modest load of 7's or 8's, I also can ignore the recoil for the most part.

The recoil pad, the load, and a proper hold, will go a very long way toward reducing felt recoil.

[greyeyezz]

I replaced my synthetic 870 stock with a full length pistol grip stock and will never go back. Recoil is distributed between the palm of my hand and shoulder instead of a straight shot to the shoulder, it kicks much less. Even 3" turkey mags are tollerable. Trigger reach is more of a natural posistion than my wrist twisted at a unatural angle, follow up shots are quicker. That my experience anyway YMMV.