Building an AR...cost and skill requirement

[Servo77]

How difficult is it to build an AR-15? What is the most economical route to go as far as parts costs.

[mtnbkr]

It's very easy. There's no real gunsmithing or parts fitting.

At a minimum, you'll need an action block that lets you hold the receiver in a vice, a barrel nut wrench, and a wrench for the nut that secures the collapsible stock (if using one). You'll also need a set of small punches to seat pins, etc. Get one of the armorer's multi-use tools and you'll have everything you need except for the punches. I had the punches already, and spent about $60 on the block and wrench. All told, I think I spent a grand total of about $600 on my AR. I wasn't in a rush and was able to buy parts on sale and save money. I bought from www.eaglefirearms.net,
www.model1sales.com, www.bushmaster.com, www.largrizzly.com, and www.midwayusa.com.

I've put 400rounds through mine since completing it last spring. It's been 100% reliable.

http://mysite.verizon.net/allencb/ar.jpg

Chris

[Handy]

Most "build kits" have the upper completely assembled - so no action block needed. You just assemble the lower, and that requires a few slim punches for the roll pins, and some patience.

[mtnbkr]

Yeah, I forgot about the prebuilt upper option. I built mine entirely from parts for the experience. My next upper will likely be prebuilt.

Chris

[essexcounty]

I've built two Stag lowers and used DPMS assembled uppers. The uppers came from Midway. If you have a C&R the discounted price represents a substantial savings. Due to a neurological disease I have limited mobility in my right hand. If I can do it anyone can. They run just as well as my Colt. Go For It!................Essex County

[Servo77]

How good are the stag lowers? Are they forged?

If I bought an assembled lower and a complete upper (with bolt), I could just slap 'em together and go?

Or if I bought a complete upper, do I just need a lower reciever and the parts kit?

Also, if I wanted to build a 9mm AR-15, what type of magazines does it take and does it require any mods to the lower?

[Texas Pete]

Stag receivers are good (they are the only ones I have used), I believe they are forged, if you want a pain free build experience get a kit with a complete upper. I spent $450 on the Kit (16'' CAR A2 kit from Del-ton.com) and about $100 on a Stag Lower from eaglefirearms.net. It was very easy.

[shooter_john]

I purchase parts, almost exclusively from jacksblackrifleshop on gunbroker.com and built a carbine that would probaly cost 1200-$1400 assembled for less than $700. I had a complete DPMS CAR lower (259.00) and bolt carrier assembly, and then bought a FN contract milspec flattop upper (89.00), Rock River "heavy" M4 barrel (220.00), and a Yankee Hill lightweight quad rail handguard (89.00). Another 15.00- 20.00 for small parts and it was complete. I added an EOTech and a few other goodies, and I now have my Dream AR, and didn't even spend a grand!

[xrageofangelsx]

Any excellent websites? I know nothing of punches, action blocks or anything. I want to learn about the AR.

[shaggy]

www.AR15.com


All you ever wnted to know about the AR15 and more...

[Servo77]

If I just buy a complete lower and complete upper...I can just slap 'em together and go, correct?

[shooter_john]

As long as the upper includes a bolt carrier assembly, that is correct- "slap em together"
Some complete uppers come with bolt assembly, some don't. If you get one without it, they can be had for 85- $150, depending on material.

[SEG45]

Stag lowers are forged, I used one for my 3rd AR and it's just as nice as my RRA lowers and $15 cheaper.

[Handy]

Sure, you can buy two completed halves, but you won't save any money - which is the point, isn't it?


The cheapest way to go is a full kit (with a completed upper) and a stripped lower.

[xrageofangelsx]

I'm more curious to know what the difference is between knowing what are mil-spec rifles, what are not. What the differences is between forged and milled and not. Etc. What is the best brand for the money? I keep hearing conflicting threads about it is worth it to build your own and now I am hearing it is not. :D

[Handy]

I don't think there are any good answers. Everyone applauds Bushmaster, but their magwells are out of spec.


I think the majority of parts are made by military subcontractors anyway, so most parts are pretty decent. For frames, the cheapest of them is forged, so there's no reason to get anything less.

[Lycanthrope]

Can't beat a Stag lower. No reason not to use one unless you don't want the "Fear the Deer" rollmark.

[Servo77]

I have been looking at RRA uppers and the standard 20" length models say they have a .223 wylde chamber instead of 5.56/.223. What is a ".223 wylde" chamber?

Also, say I got on eof the standard RRA A4's (flattop). I want to put a scope on it...do I need a special mount....or just use the rail on it? Will the front sight structure interfere with the scope view?


And what is the difference between the "midlength" carbines and the shorts? I know it has to do with gas tube length, but what does that mean in meaningful terms?

[xrageofangelsx]

Servo

As far as I know, the shortest you can get for an AR carbine is 16" unless you want to pay the fee for the short-barrel rifle configuration. .223 Wylde will chamber .223, 223 Wylde, and 5.56 mm.

[Servo77]

The length issue you are talking about is barrel length...I am more concerned with gas tube length and its effects.

[SEG45]

The midlength would be a better choice and yes, it has to do with the gas tube.
The gas tube starts at the front sight and runs to the upper receiver, the midlength hanguards are longer, thus the gas tube is longer then on the carbine. With a longer gas tube the gas is bled at a different rate then on a carbine, the carbine has a shorter cycle then the midlength.
The shorter cycle is a faster impulse and would result in increased wear. How much it is increased over the midlength, I am not sure, but any reduction in wear is a good thing.

ETA: as far as barrel goes, you can have a 14.5" barrel and a 1.5" flash hider/ muzzle brake and still be legal, the OAL just has to be 16", although ballistically, I wouldn't go below 14.5".

[Rivers]

Bushmaster magwells are not "out-of-spec." Money can be saved by buying a lower and upper separately, as the F.E.T. is charged on the total price when you buy the receiver. If the price of the receiver is (duh!) lower than the complete rifle, then you only pay the F.E.T. on the price of the lower. There'd be no F.E.T. on a separate upper.

[Handy]

Bushmaster receivers are notorious for being too tight. They won't even accept some plastic mags, and my brother had to polish down a portion of ALL of his GI mags to get them into the well. New Bushmaster receiver.


What knowledge are you speaking from?



And what's an F.E.T?

[Rivers]

From the same knowledge that provided accurate information about buying the upper and lower separately being less expensive than buying the complete rifle, due to the tax differences.

I own a Bushy. Several of my friends own Bushies. All our Bushies gladly accept G.I. and Thermold mags. Never found a mag yet that won't work in my Bushy, but I've never tried the "notorious-for-being-out-of-spec" Orlites, either.

[Handy]

Well, I've read about it plenty in the past, and now we have one that is too tight with GI mags in the family. That leads me to believe that those people weren't making it up, since we're experiencing it.


So FET is sales tax?


If you mail order a rifle you don't pay sales tax, either. You pay the company you order it from, and you pay your FFL a service fee for the transfer. Doesn't matter what the gun costs if you don't pay it in state. So, done right, there is no difference.

[Mike Irwin]

I built mine around the same time as mtnbkr. He's actually the one who got me interested in it.

I went the preassembled upper route. I got a good deal on the upper. It didn't have a bolt or carrier, but I picked those up fairly cheaply.

I figure total cost I'm into on it is about $550-600.

Mine, too, has been 100% reliable.

[Lycanthrope]

Federal Excise Taxes aren't state sales taxes. They're taxes pinned by the feds for certain goods. Since the receiver is the "gun" you can pay the tax on the $85 lower or the complete rifle. Some dealers add this to the cost and some don't in the way it's been explained to me. I believe it is 11% for long guns.

That being said I've had AR's from the cheapest (Model 1) to the semi custom (Clark Gator) and they all ran 100%, even with the newer wolf ammo. Dare I say that my Model 1 has the the most consistent finish and the least amount of casting marks of all my uppers! (may the gods of arfcom strike me down!) Once a company has a rep for certain problems (Oly also had tight magwells at one time), it sticks with them. I know I have an Oly with no problems and never saw a Bushy with a tight well, but I think you can get this problem anywhere and with any maker at times. I think this is simply because the guns are modular and we expect them to run every mag and/or always be up to snuff in machining. Expect every 1911 to run every type of mag and people would call you crazy, but for an AR we expect it. I have a Kimber that broke TWO series II safety plungers....UNHEARD OF! I still bought another one and it has been perfect. Go figure.

On the down side, the manufacturers expect us to pay
$800-$1400 for a new that just isn't that much better in my experience over a model costing half that. Many of the makers are using uppers and lowers cast from the same foundries anyhow. Even if you get a bad one most will service it..or if you buy cheap you can replace the part with a superior piece for less than buying an expensive gun in the first place.

I think most new AR shooters have little idea about how simple the design is and how easy they are to work on (unless you have some really drastic forging issues).

[Handy]

I don't believe I've ever paid federal excise tax. If it is included in the price, then I have no idea.

But I've never been able to find a pair of complete AR halves that combined to form a rifle any cheaper than a complete Oly or DPMS base model. That was my point.

[mtnbkr]

I think most new AR shooters have little idea about how simple the design is and how easy they are to work on (unless you have some really drastic forging issues).
Yup. This was my first AR. It went together so quickly and effortlessly, I was actually let down. I was hoping for a fun project and it turned out to be trivial.

Chris

[Servo77]

Say I got on eof the standard RRA A4's (flattop). I want to put a scope on it...do I need a special mount....or just use the rail on it? Will the front sight structure interfere with the scope view?

Also, what are the pluses and minuses of chome lining? Is it necessary?

What about the DPMS varminter upers (stainless with bull barrel)....good value? I am now thinking about building two...one midlength carbine and one varmint rifle (20" bull barrel). Not sure on the varminter if I should use a standard a4 upper or one fo the DPMS bull barrel ones. I would prefer the standard one as I could swap out a carry handle if I wanted (see my first question in this post).

[Lycanthrope]

You can mount the rings right to the rail. You'll likely need high ones. You'll look right through the front sight base on most scopes if they are up high enough.

Chrome lining makes it easier to clean and helps protect the bore from wear, but degrades accuracy to a small degree. For light to moderate environments and usage, it's not necessary.

DMPS are fine so are RRA for about the same price. My best bang for the buck varminter upper would be a White Oak Armament. For a tackdriver I like the heavier barrels.

[Servo77]

what about stainless steel barrels.....offer the same wear resistance (to a degree) as chrome lining?

[Lycanthrope]

Nothing beats Chrome, but a good quality match SS barrel will likely start out better if broken in right with the right loads.

If you're after ultimate accuracy, go SS or chrome moly steel and rebarrel it after several thousands when it gets shot out. It's not going to all of a sudden shoot 12" groups one day....it will open up over time and THEN just go. You can always get an action block and screw in a new barrel for $200.

If you want a plinker or rifle that is all about reliability in the long term without rebarreling go chrome lined.

[Servo77]

I am more after a ar as a shooter and fun gun....I have a Howa varminter for super accuracy.

So a SS barrel will "wear out" faster then a chrome lined? I was looking at a Rock river midlength carbine upper (w/ chrome lining option) or a RR 20" A2 with a SS barrel.

I am not after .25 inch groups with the AR....but I want pretty good accuracy and I consider myself good enough off hand shot that there is usable difference between a 1-2 moa gun vs. a 3-4 MOA gun

[Lycanthrope]

Sevo, the difference between a good AR and a bad one is .5 MOA vs. 2 MOA.

If you find a load that gives you 1 MOA or better, it's gonna take you several thousand to open up to twice that....maybe more.

[Rivers]

"then I have no idea." (Handy)

Exactly! :D

[xrageofangelsx]

http://www.fairtax.org

Basically, when businesses are charged tax on items they used to make guns or butter, they pass on the charge of tax on items made rather than "eat" the tax charged to them. Making the gun 11% (more) or whatever number it may be. Fairtax seeks to eliminate that, though we were not discussing it in this thread, it is a part of the central ideals presented on the website. So rather than just paying sales tax like we often think we do now, we're paying taxes at least twice and usually more.

[Handy]

Is there any reason to assume that a business is going to only get charged different FET depending on whether they assemble their rifles or not? That seems to be the crux of River's argument (though he wasn't able to argue it himself.)

I would think FET would apply to all of it.

[OBIWAN]

You are pretty safe buying an upper...although I will agree with Handy that it never seemed cheaper to me.

If you are good mechanically....or just lucky, you can assemble a decent rifle from "parts"

But........while I am sure yours will work just fine:D

Most of the rifles that go down in training classes are the "frankenguns"

That...and bad ammo

[Lycanthrope]

On the base guns you don't save much money, but you can mate a Gator or White Oak Armament upper to a complete Stag lower for under $1000 and that's hard to beat for a semi custom gun.

[Servo77]

Question: with the stock fully extended, how long is a 16" carbine


Also, how good is the standard (not the match) RRA trigger?

And anyone have definate evidence of Bushmaster mag wells being too tight...I seem to remeber that the GI 20 rounder I had would stick in my bushmaster.

[Handy]

What kind of "evidence"? My brother's is too tight with GI mags - what is it you want?

[PythonGuy]

I use the Colt 20 round pre-ban mags in all my AR-15's because they are easier to load and function perfectly. The bushmaster mag with green plastic follower is a PITA to load the rounds into, they just pop in with the colts. As for assembly, I now buy complete uppers and lowers and just mount them together with the take-down pins. I save money and get a great rifle.

[Servo77]

What is everyone's feelings on rock river arms. I know they just won a big DEA and FBI contract. Looking at getting a RRA upper and lower of them because I can get teh midlength carbine instead of an m4 length.

Also, I have been keeping an eye on 6.8mm SPC availability. Anyone have any experience with these and are the uppers available from eagle firearms good?