New military .45?

[Jack Malloy]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/jcp.htm

Anybody else seen this?

I wonder what the deal is? Are they coming up with standards so they can get Glocks now like FBI did?

[Hard Ball]

This would replace the 9mm M9 pistol with a nondevelopmental .45ACP. The Army has shown little interest in Glocks qhich have not done well in military competitions. The front runners are probably SIG and H&K whose pistols have donr very well when issued to some SOCOM units in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[High Planes Drifter]

The deadline for companies to submit was back in September. I read another article on this on another board. I wonder if they have started testing yet.? Its hard to believe they are so interested in replacing the M9 already. Especially when the military is looking so hard to replace the M16; you'd figure they would replace the rifle first scince its top priority.

[jonathon]

The M16 platform works very well. The M9 does not work so well.

They are replacing the actual problems first :) Beretta's are good guns, just not the best for military weapons.

[Mikeyboy]

Another thread was started a while back where someone posted an article about miltary testing with .40 and .45 caliber pistols. Its not that the M9 Beretta is bad (it actually functioned well in Iraq), its just that the 9mm caliber is lacking for military use. The Military MUST use ball ammo and I think your are going to see more fighters/soldiers wearing body armor. The top two companies will be Berretta (maybe if they go with .40) and HK (which already has a bunch of other US military contracts)

[H&K4Life]

The "Military" in its entirety does not use the Bretta. You will be better off saying that the Army is still using it. The Marines are morphing to a .40 and god only knows what the Navy is doing.

I don't see the Army going away from the 9mm. Ultimately certain "individuals" (I'll leave it at that) could not hadle the recoil of the 1911 back in the day, so they aint gonna change it now.

[BlueTrain]

My son is a tanker in a unit preparing to deploy to Iraq (hoping I'm not giving away military secrets). He is issued both a pistol and an M4 carbine as is one other tank crewman. The other two crewmen just have pistols, though he tells me they issue more rifles so everyone will have one once there. They are evidently expecting to be doing a lot of duty outside their tanks.

Although they are issued with pistols, I gather no one takes them particularly seriously in that they do little training with them. They do have to qualify but my son says it is easier than doing so with the rifle or carbine, which is interesting. At any rate, they have recently been training with M249 machine guns (the SAW, if I got the model number right), which is not a regular tank unit weapon as far as I know. By the way, he tells me that they could not get 5.56 in belts and had to use magazines.

My main point here is that the military, particularly the one in the front row, see their array of weapons in the opposite order that we a civilians are likely to, mainly because our own choices are limited to pistols and rifles. For the army, those are the last choices, especially the rifles. All the same, they take the rifle and carbine seriously and when they can, they fix up their own (issue) weapon with add-ons, like special sights.

I think they are all happy with their weapons.

[The British Soldier]

SOCOM must have a secret bank account to go out and buy a new .45 pistol that seems inline to replace the Mk.23 Pistol. That's the way I read this, or are other SF units swapping?

[Rob96]

This would replace the 9mm M9 pistol with a nondevelopmental .45ACP. The Army has shown little interest in Glocks qhich have not done well in military competitions. The front runners are probably SIG and H&K whose pistols have donr very well when issued to some SOCOM units in Afghanistan and Iraq.


The Army has actually purchased G19s for its Asymetric Warfare Group. Plus some other people use them as well.


SOCOM must have a secret bank account to go out and buy a new .45 pistol that seems inline to replace the Mk.23 Pistol. That's the way I read this, or are other SF units swapping?

Started out as a SOCOM project, then developed into a military wide project, with SOCOM doing the specs and testing.

The "Military" in its entirety does not use the Bretta. You will be better off saying that the Army is still using it. The Marines are morphing to a .40 and god only knows what the Navy is doing.

I don't see the Army going away from the 9mm. Ultimately certain "individuals" (I'll leave it at that) could not hadle the recoil of the 1911 back in the day, so they aint gonna change it now.

No idea where the hell you go the info that the Marines are using the .40 and the Navy using who knows what. Ill informed on that one.

Another thread was started a while back where someone posted an article about miltary testing with .40 and .45 caliber pistols. Its not that the M9 Beretta is bad (it actually functioned well in Iraq), its just that the 9mm caliber is lacking for military use.

Something tells me that when they do switch to 45acp, they will then complain that it does not penetrate hard barriers like the 9mm did.

[USMC Tanker]

Jonathon: "The M16 platform works very well. The M9 does not work so well."

Who told you that? It's the ball ammo in the M9 that we (Marines and other military personnel) don't like, the pistol design and performance is fine. The M16 platform is decent, but I've never liked the idea of taking a touchy rifle platform into battle that chambers what is essentially a varmint round.

H&K4Life: "The 'Military' in its entirety does not use the Bretta. You will be better off saying that the Army is still using it. The Marines are morphing to a .40 and god only knows what the Navy is doing."

The Marines are not morphing to the .40, as Rob96 said.

BlueTrain: Tankers in Iraq are doing what everyone else (MPs, grunts, etc) is doing...vehicle/personnel checkpoints, route security, route recon. Tankers are putting mileage on their boots too. About linked ammo for the SAW, grunt, MP and other dismounted units get priority when it comes to ammo and other special toys. I don't know about the Army, but the Marines take all forms of weapons seriously and attempt to master the operation of all small arms (Every Marine a rifleman).

Rob96: The Army may have purchased some Glocks, but they were most likely used as training aids for the soldiers who will be teaching Iraqis the operation of their new issue-Glocks. Hopefully I will be out of the military if the time comes when the military starts to issue Glocks or other DAO sidearms.

[rgillis]

Hopefully I will be out of the military if the time comes when the military starts to issue Glocks or other DAO sidearms.

Tanker,
What is your reasoning on this one? I'm interested in your point of view.

[jonathon]

Maybe jarheads crawling in the dirt have different opinions of the m16 ;)

Friend of mine got back from Iraq recently, did a lot of foot patrols with the M16. Worked fine, but his rifle was cleaned and cared for regularly(which SHOULD be the case for any rifle). His opinion of it was it worked when he needed it in Mosul so.

9mm ball doesn't always work, but the M9 does. My opinion of the M9/92FS is it is way to heavy for a frontline pistol, as well as having a large grip that is hard for smaller hands to get a grasp of. The 92 platform is done for as it really doesn't stand out in .40(11 rounds capacity for starters) and is non existant in .45. Kind of think this is why they want a single stack .45, little more wounding capacity(though not much considering it is ball) and a single stack would fit EVERYONE better.

Now, one thing I know for a fact is the 5.56 has EXCELLENT wounding capabilities, though that is under the 300 yard mark and with a 16" barrel. For long range stuff, I think one should be looking to step up to a .308, maybe that is why they are looking at the 6.8spc? One of the big hinderances is it likes velocity for it's fragmenting, and if it don't fragment, it won't leave a permanent wound cavity. Now, I have heard of a round known as the Mk262 by Blackhills that is supposed to perform excellently out of short barreled rifles.

[Rob96]

Rob96: The Army may have purchased some Glocks, but they were most likely used as training aids for the soldiers who will be teaching Iraqis the operation of their new issue-Glocks. Hopefully I will be out of the military if the time comes when the military starts to issue Glocks or other DAO sidearms.



These guys don't do any training, except for our guys. From my understanding, they go on the ground and study the guerilla tactics, especially the i.e.d.'s. Think they are a part of SOCOM. Grant it, that it was a small contract of only 250 pistols.

[stratus]

I don't see the Army going away from the 9mm. Ultimately certain "individuals" (I'll leave it at that) could not hadle the recoil of the 1911 back in the day, so they aint gonna change it now.
Odd thing is, I much prefer the recoil of a 1911, feels a lot better than my uncle's M9.

[MADISON]

1 [one] show with a 45...
7 [seven] to 9 [nine] shots with a 9MM.
for a take down.

[Jack Malloy]

I saw something in the NRA magazines a few months ago about one tank unit purchasing Rugers' polymer 9s.

Personally, I have no problem with the Beretta. As 9 goes its a great DA.

I generally prefer a 1911, but mostly for the flat gun and the big cartridge.

I just think that given what a field soldier may face (hard barriers, being outnumbered etc...) that a 10mm pistol with a high magazine capacity would make more since than a 9, a .40 or a .45.
Something like the old Bren Ten, or the CZ -75 maybe?
Flat trajectory, lots of power and penetration. Its the obvious solution to the problem. You could also chamber the subguns for it and get increased range and performance too.

[IZinterrogator]

Who told you that? It's the ball ammo in the M9 that we (Marines and other military personnel) don't like, the pistol design and performance is fine. Don't forget those crummy Checkmate magazines that don't work in harsh conditions like... well, anywhere. Including the factory they're made in. Took my own personal Beretta factory magazines with me to the sandbox, no problems (well, at least until I decided to replace the factory magazine springs with Wolff springs. Now I know if it ain't broke, don't fix it! :D ).

[BerettaCougar]

1 [one] show with a 45...
7 [seven] to 9 [nine] shots with a 9MM.
for a take down.

Uh....are we bringing one shot stops up again?
Why not just type something along the lines of...

"The 45 has so much power it creates a sonicboom!"

[Mikeyboy]

Friend of mine got back from Iraq recently, did a lot of foot patrols with the M16. Worked fine, but his rifle was cleaned and cared for regularly(which SHOULD be the case for any rifle). His opinion of it was it worked when he needed it in Mosul so.

9mm ball doesn't always work, but the M9 does. My opinion of the M9/92FS is it is way to heavy for a frontline pistol, as well as having a large grip that is hard for smaller hands to get a grasp of. The 92 platform is done for as it really doesn't stand out in .40(11 rounds capacity for starters) and is non existant in .45. Kind of think this is why they want a single stack .45, little more wounding capacity(though not much considering it is ball) and a single stack would fit EVERYONE better.

With the m16 it is a good weapon if you keep it clean, I thing the problem is and ask your friend this because the two guys I know who were over there complained that you had to clean it RELIGIOUSLY. The sand and dust there gets everywhere so that guys who are not even in combat are cleaning the weapons daily. Remember the Jessica Little convoy incident, They were rear supply troops who probably took little care of there weapons and when their convoy was attacked most of the m-16 failed to operate. I just find it unnerving that if your in a combat situation and stuck in a gun battle over a few days, you got to clean your weapon daily to insure it will work.

With the M-9 your right on target. I have a Taurus PT92 which is a clone of the Beretta M9 and it is a BIG heavy handgun.

[USMC Tanker]

Rgillis,
I don't like the Glocks because I would hate to be in a sustained firefight, putting lots of rounds downrange (some may ask why you would be using a pistol in a sustained firefight, but I'm a tanker, sometimes it all we have when dismounted), and it's already 125 degrees outside. I just would not have a whole lot of faith in a polymer pistol not warping, melting, or having a KB occur. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'd rather have a piece of metal than a piece of plastic. Plus, I've seen what sand and the desert environment do to metal firearms (I'm not talking about jamming or functionality, I'm talking about wear and tear), I wouldn't even want to see what it would do to a Glock (I don't much care about the results of their torture tests either). And about DAO pistols, to be honest, I'd rather have a SAO than a DAO. I like the M9 because it's both SA and DA (I do wish however, that it didn't have a decocker so I could carry hammer cocked, weapon on safe). I prefer shooting in the SA no matter what pistol I'm firing or where or why.

Jonathon,
What MikeyBoy said is right on. When I went to Fallujah (my tank unit deployed as a dismounted rifle unit), we cleaned our rifles as often as we could, but with the sand (more like a fine powder or dust), weather, and other elements, it was almost impossible to keep your rifle in perfect working order. And this was in a fairly large city! Not some wide open desert. I'd just rather have something a bit less prissy and a lot more reliable.

[Rob96]

I saw something in the NRA magazines a few months ago about one tank unit purchasing Rugers' polymer 9s.


Those pistols went to Iraqi security forces.

[MikeOrick]

The Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System is the result of the merging of the Army's Future Handgun System (FHS) project and the SOF's Combat Pistol (CP) project. They decided to get one gun in two models for everybody. Up to 645,000 over 10 yrs.

Info at:

ODA
U.S. Special Operations Command
Headquarters Procurement Division
10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System
Responses to Industry Questions of "Draft" RFP 01, Responses to Industry
Questions of 01
http://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM/SOAL%2DKB/H92222%2D05%2DR%2D0017/listing.html

45 ACP

DA/SA, DAO, or SFA (striker fired action)

W safety (600,000) and W/O safety (45,000)

Std capacity/at least 8 rds and and high capacity/at least 10 rounds magazines (think compact and full size)

MIL-STD-1913 accessory rail

2,000 MRBS/5,000 MRBF

20,000 round service life

Mean radius of 10 shot group at 50m no more than 3.15 inches

Suppressor attachment kit

Should fit hands from 5th - 95th percentile; modular grip adjustment is
desired, not required

Coming soon:

Final RFP Release: Projected in January 2006
Proposal Response Deadline: Projected in March 2006
Expected Contract Award Date: Projected in 4Q FY06 (Jul - Sep 06).

[FirstFreedom]

I'm pretty sure they're manipulating the criteria to make their pre-chosen pistol rise to the top - the hi-point. :eek: :D

[Jack Malloy]

>>>I'm pretty sure they're manipulating the criteria to make their pre-chosen pistol rise to the top<<<

Well, the FBI did that when they wanted Glocks and 1911s! LOL:p


>>>the hi-point.<<<

Couldn't be. Notice they said service life of 20,000 rounds, not 200, LOL...:D

[BlueTrain]

Let me get this straight: someone here thinks the M9 Beretta is too big and heavy and that's why they want a single-stack Colt .45?