To Wolf or not to Wolf

[H&K4Life]

Is there anyone out their who has some ]long-term usage experience [/B] with the wolf. I will be purchasing about 3k rds of .45 ACP. Yes cheap is priority, but not a the price of harming the weapon. I am sure that this debate has gone on for centuries (but I have found no posts on it). Is it just a matter of being dirty as hell, or is it truely bad for your weapon?
IN a world where informatiion is power, is there someone out there who can "empower" me?

(the last time I used the wolf was last year. After about 200 + rds, it looking like a thunder storm was coming out of my pistol)

[Kamicosmos]

I use wolf in my AK clone. No problems so far. I have had problems with their .223 sticking in my AR, but it has a non-chrome lined barrel and chamber. I have a new AR with chrome, but it hasn't shot any wolf yet.

I have no experience with their pistol ammo, so can't help you there. If you have shot it out of your gun, and have a few hundred rounds fired with no malfs, then I would say go for it.

[Wildalaska]

And we just finished de Wolfing another AR today...

So add $45 to the price of their ammo

Crap. Junk. Avoid it.

WildorpayyourgunsmithAlaska

[shaggy]

I've never had a problem with 9mm Wolf. Thousands upon thousands of rounds, no problems. Its dirty, but if you clean your guns (you DO clean your guns, don't you?) it'll be fine. However, just to be sure why not try a few boxes for yourself first before you go buy a few cases?

[Eightball]

I use Wolf. Lots of it. Don't use pistol calibres, though, only rifle. I have fed Wolf to my Saiga--no problems. I feed Wolf to my SKS--no problems. I'd feed Wolf to my .22, but that's more expensive than the better stuff out there :cool: . I like Wolf a bunch--if only because it's easy to tell my casings from the other guys when all is said and done. However, I've never heard anything decent about their pistol calibre ammo, and have only heard bad things when Wolf was fed to an AR (what does that tell you about ARs? Finiky, if you ask me :p ). So, that's how it stands. I like it, I use it, I blow the crap outta things with it. But, on your higher-end/finicky firearms, use something else. YMMV.

[281 Quad Cam]

I run it in my SKS exclusively. Works fine.

5.56/.223 AR15s have an issue with the lacquer coated Wolf ammo... Apparently the story goes that a hot chamber cooks the lacquer off the cartridge and than makes for goo in the chamber which causes substantial malfunctions... Than the stuff is a major pain to clean back out of the AR chamber, so people pay gunsmiths like WildAlaska to do it.

The AR-15 is the only gun that I have heard of having this issue with Wolf.

I haven't heard good or bad on pistol ammo. Guess this all doesnt help much.

[Ozzieman]

I have shot thousands of 9mm and other than being dirty works well in a Glock 26 and a Beretta Cougar.
I have finished my 3rd case of 7.62x39 and will by buying more this fall it works fine and I have never had a reasion to complane.
But the 223 I find too dirty and knowing the problems that AR's can have went with somthing else.
If your looking for prices check out the http://ammoman.com/
He has the best prices I have been able to find, free shiping and I say this and have NO connection with them.

[alpineman]

I've shot thousands through my Bushmaster AR with no problems. I'm a few hundred into a 1K shipment of .45 ACP, also with no problems. However, I'll admit to being a gun-cleaning Nazi, and Wolf is diiiirrrrrty ammo. But I use it because I can afford to shoot more.

[jeff_troop]

not a thing wrong with wolf. anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or has an agenda. been using it for years.

[Wildalaska]

anyone who says otherwise is ignorant or has an agenda.

Well since I dont have an agenda that means I am ignorant I reckon.

You pays your money you takes your chances. I always feel bad that so many people have their egos tied up in what they like..me....we just fix em...you guys keep shootin it and we make money

WildandthatsthatAlaska

[spacemanspiff]

the shop (WWG) is going to start taking polaroids of the people who come in with stuck cases. a Wall of Wolf Shame is going to go up. we'll see how many repeat offenders there are out there.

[xXStarScreamXx]

It's really dirty. We have guys that shoot it in our range at work and the white floor is just black with unburned powder and residue.

Assuming you clean your gun every 50 rounds, it's not bad. but damn its gross.

[Garand Illusion]

My 1911 came with several boxes of Wolf .45. Shooting it I had MANY FTE's.

I assumed it was the fact it was a cheap weapon (Charles Daly) and that I was limp wristing it (the latter may have been a problem).

Last time I went shooting I didn't shoot any Wolf, and didn't have a single FTE. Can't say for sure it's all the Wolf, but preliminary results make me believe that Wolf is crap.

But again ... my day with non-wolf ammo might just have been a lucky day.

I've got one more box of wolf left. I'll use it up and see what happens.

[Mannlicher]

I shoot a lot of Wolf 7.62X39 in my SKS rifles and my AKs. I have a thing against using steel case ammo in arms that were not designed for it, so I have very limited experience in shooting their .45 ACP stuff.
What experience I have though, tells me that Wolf is good ammo. Dirty maybe, but reliable.

[mtnbkr]

Locally, Wolf is about half the price of anything else. I've put 220 rounds of Wolf through my AR without any problems after the first 20. I think the gun was still breaking in, although it had no problems with any other ammo. However, the other 200 went through just fine (this was some 100rounds later). As of Friday, the gun has seen just over 400 rounds total (half being Wolf). Reliability after that one box has been 100%. Reliability with any other ammo as been 100% since the gun was first fired. Accuracy with Wolf has been equal to WWB 223.

Eleven boxes of Wolf mean a savings of $33 over the next cheapest option (and even greater savings over premium selections). Since I built my AR from parts, I'm prepared to replace any parts damaged or perform any other necessary work.

My only other experience with Wolf has been in the typical AK and SKS rifles. No complaints there either...

Chris

[dfaugh]

No problems---it is dirty, less accurate than others, but never a problem...Zero, Zip, Nada...Just bought a bunch more.

It might not run in an AR-15, but I wouldn't have a gun that wouldn't eat pretty much anything I'm likely to feed it, so who cares? :barf:

[Apple a Day]

WildscaredofthebigbadWolfAlaska, ;)
did the guns you had to de-Wolf use the old laquer-coated stuff or the newer polymer-coated?
I've shot gobs of Wolf through my commie guns and never had a twitch. When my Ruger P95 gets filthy then occassionaly a Wolf round doesn't quite feed. I also have an aftermarket magazine for the Ruger that doesn't like the polymer-coated version but has no problems with laquer-coated.
It's range ammo.

[kymasabe]

I've been to a few IPSC matches where between all the shooters they've literally shot thousands of rounds of the stuff in one Sunday morning. I didn't see anyone cursing their ammo or having jamming problems and most of the shooters were .45, 9mm, or .40cal. It is dirty ammo but doesn't seem any dirtier to me than Winchester White Box. I clean my guns after every range session anyway so I really don't care how dirty the ammo is. It's as accurate as any other cheap range ammo I've used and my Taurus just eats the stuff up. My Kel-Tec P3AT however hates Wolf and just won't feed or eject the stuff properly...but that's no big deal. The K-T is a finicky, ammo sensitive, pain in the butt anyway, I know it, and just use ammo it likes. Wolf just isn't one of them for that gun. Otherwise...I've heard of people bashing it because it's dirty, or maybe they don't like that fact that it's Russian, or cheap, or can't be reloaded. But, everyone I know that uses it has had good luck with it. And I've seen it flying thru some fancy/expensive race guns.

[AAshooter]

WildAlaska, I don't have a lot of experience with Wolf ammo. I bought one case of .45ACP and did not like how it ran in my gun. Probably the last case I will buy.

Anyway, I would be interested in hearing more about the problems you have seen due to this ammo.

[281 Quad Cam]

Really the only problems your likely to hear about with Wolf, is in the AR-15.

Aside from that the steel cased ammo can be rough on some American extractors which are built weak to only handle brass or other soft casings. However "commie crap" guns have powerful extractors meant to handle that, so it wouldn't be an issue in any SKS or AK.

[Wildalaska]

Bingo.....

US guns and US pistols are not designed for steel case ammo.

WildacceleratedwearAlaska

[CDignition]

if the chamber is chrome, it is not an issue...Extractors are cheap to replace, and the diffrence in $$$ saved in ammo can easily buy new extractors...

[Eightball]

you guys keep shootin it and we make moneyDon't you just love how the economy works? :rolleyes: US guns and US pistols are not designed for steel case ammo.Probably true--which is why I don't use Wolf in my US guns (all 2 of them, both .22LR :p ).It's range ammo.Amen to that. If you want tack-driving accuracy, look for something else. If you want to have some "fun with your gun" (err, rifle ;) ), Wolf is fine--assuming your weapon isn't an AR :barf: . And, since I have no autoloaders, I can't comment on their pistol ammo. YMMV.

[Sam Cade]

Aside from that the steel cased ammo can be rough on some American extractors which are built weak to only handle brass or other soft casings.

The issue with Wolf is the steel case.
A brass case has memory, upon firing it expands then snaps back to nearly the same shape it held before.
A steel case, once fired, remains in its expanded shape and exerts considerable grip on the chamber walls.

I have shot nearly 10,000 rounds of Wolf this year, but only in weapons intended to be shot with dirty steel case cartridges.

As far as shooting Wolf in an AR-15 you gotta be crazy!!!

mtnbkr:clean the gas tube in your AR and tell us what it is like :D

[Wildalaska]

Extractors are cheap to replace, and the diffrence in $$$ saved in ammo can easily buy new extractors...

Really....when was the last time you changed an extractor on a quality firearm? You can fit them yourslf? How bout on a remington 700? Would you toss Wolf down a remington 700? Ever change the extractor in a BHP? or an M1 carbine? Hey, what happens when the case gets stuck, the extractor shears off, the next round is stripped off the mag and becasue there is a pice of the extractor floating around, the fresh round blows out of battery? (ive seen that one)...

All to save how much?

Agian, its amazing how some poples egos are so damaged by the very concept that what they like actually sucks. Im not telling you guys what to use, Im indicating to you what not to use. You wanna toss Wolf down an SKS...hey thats what the gun was designed to use. Other than com bloc guns, most though were designed for brass cases. You want to shoot em in your ARs or Colts or whatever, hey keep a few extra $$ for your gunsmith

WildpspolymermeltstooAlaska

[PythonGuy]

It's funny because I see and talk to some guys that use it at the range because it is cheap. They complain constantly because it stinks, is dirty as hell, and not consistently accurate. They are miserable during the whole range experience and then after they say how great Wolf is for the money, it's a riot.

[C Philip]

I see no problem using Wolf in a military surplus SKS, AK, or Makarov pistol. However, I would not use it in any new gun that I really cared about. The steel cases are rough on the extractor. Also, I have heard that if the gun gets too hot, like from many rapidly fired shots, the lacquer on the case can melt a little and make a big mess that's hard to clean up in your gun.

[shaggy]

I can’t think of why anyone would want to put Wolf in something like a Remington 700. Its well known Wolf is not terribly accurate or match ammo so you’d be stupid to put it in something like a scoped Rem. 700 where the capabilities of the ammo would limit you far more than the capabilities of the firearm. However, for something like offhand plinking at pumpkins with an AR, AK, FAL, G3, or most pistols or pistol caliber caliber carbines, its fine IMHO. YMMV.

Now about the steel – those of you claiming the steel of the Wolf cases will damage chamber and extractors, can you elaborate on the type of steel alloy from which Wolf cases are made in contrast to that of what your extractor is made? Also please feel free to comment on which design features comblock guns possess which makes them "designed for steel cases" which US weapons lack. I’m not a metallurgist, but even I know all steel is not created equal, and all steels do not have the same physical properties. It was claimed here that the steel cases do not snap back as easily as a brass case would. Have you ever seen a steel spring – a coiled or a flat spring? Do you honestly believe Wolf cases are made with the same hardened and high quality tool steel extractors and most quality gun parts are made from? Heck, the only ammo I use in my M11 SMG is Wolf. Its still using the same extractor that came in the gun when it was originally made 20 years ago and after tens of thousands of rounds its still running on Wolf without a problem. OTOH, I've had extractors break after just a few hundred rounds of brass cased .22LR in an AM180 - does that mean brass cases are hard on extractors, or does it mean I just got a bum extractor?

[Sam Cade]

Damage to your extractor is NOT caused by the hardness of the steel case.

It is caused by the increased force needed to extract the case.


WildAlaska: We had a guy weld shut an old a older Ruger No.1 in .223 with a single round of Wolf.
It took a deadblow hammer to get the action open.

[shaggy]

It is caused by the increased force needed to extract the case.

If true, then its seems it would still only damage the extractor if the case was harder than the extractor. I've run Wolf in a 10.5", 11.5", and even a 7.5" upper (all of which have a far more violent extraction cycle than any 16"+ barreled AR15/M16) and seen no problems with Wolf. The 7.5" upper wasn't even chrome lined barrel.

Note the placement of my left hand on the mag well. After 4-5mags dumped in quick succession in full-auto on a 90+ degree summer day the aluminum handguard was too hot to hold. Gun ran fine, and no malfs or other evidence of 'melted lacquer'.

http://hometown.aol.com/hillingham/images/dsc00211(3).jpg

[mtnbkr]

mtnbkr:clean the gas tube in your AR and tell us what it is like
I didn't clean it (more on that later), but I just pulled it out and took a look at it. It's actually cleaner than I expected (I'm an AR newbie). The visible internal walls of the tube are black, but there isn't any accumulation. A puff of air in one end results in a corresponding puff out of the other end's hole (no, I didn't put my lips on the tube).

I also took a look at the bolt and chamber as best I could without a scope or magnifying glass. Everything looked good. I didn't see any abnormal wear or accumulation, just the normal soot that any semiauto would develop (and surprisingly little for 400 rounds).

I built this gun for three reasons: First, I wanted an EBR with all the scary features (collapsible stock, flashider, and hicap mags). Second, I wanted to see what the AR hype was about. Third, I wanted to see if the AR was as unreliable as some folks say. To puruse the final reason, I've decided to not clean the gun until it hits 1000 rounds or starts jamming, whatever comes first. At first, I wasn't going to use Wolf because of what I've read on the Internet (which isn't real, remember). However, affordable brass cased ammo is getting harder to find around here. It gets expensive to feed this rifle when you can blast through 6mags worth in a single session. I tried Wolf and found it acceptable for my purposes. While I had the gun apart, I did wipe some of the soot from the bolt in order to inspect it, but I did no deep cleaning or scrubbing. The sort of wipedown I gave it could be accomplished in the field by a soldier using his shirttail or a rag.

To compare the use of Wolf in an AR to Wolf in a boltrifle is like comparing apples and oranges. At least for me, the two rifles have completely different uses. My bolt rifle gets fired 20-30 times during a range session and all of the brass is collected for handloading (I load maybe 200 rounds a year). My handloads are crafted for accuracy and terminal effect on deer. My AR is a range blaster, no more, no less. I go through as much as 180 rounds in a session. I don't load for it and don't plan to either. The ammo costs add up for the AR.

I have no particular attachment to Wolf Ammo. If Wal-Mart still carried the WWB 223 (7.76 for 40 rounds), I'd never would have touched Wolf.

Good grief, this post got long...

Chris

[Sam Cade]

Shaggy WildAlaska: I just did a little x-spearmint.
I took a just fired Wolf 7.62x39 case and heated it with open flame for 2 minutes.
I then took my pocket knife and tried to scrape away the coating.


The result?
You can scratch the coating away but it dosent appear to soften.


I then took another case and scraped ALL of its coating off onto a piece of wax paper.
I then transfered the scrapings to a butter knife which I then heated with an open flame for 3 minutes.
After 3 minutes the scrapings were still solid.

[Sam Cade]

"If true, then its seems it would still only damage the extractor if the case was harder than the extractor"

Shaggy: Think of it this way.
Say it requires 20ft/lbs of force to extract a 5.56 our of your carbine using brass case ammo.
Now say it takes 30ft/lbs of force to extract steel case ammo.

Your extractor is only built to take 20ft/lbs so every time your weapon cycles you over-stress that part.

The Youngs Modulus of the case rim isnt an issue as all it has to do is hold the extractor and not get ripped off.

[Eightball]

Other than com bloc guns, most though were designed for brass cases. You want to shoot em in your ARs or Colts or whatever, hey keep a few extra $$ for your gunsmithPersonally, though I am a Wolf fan, I think Wild sums it up nicely right there. Stick by that philosophy, and you'll do fine--no screwing up finiky ARs, breaking expensive weapons, or whatnot; just some quality time shooting cheap ammo out of combloc guns :D .

[mtnbkr]

Here's a random thought...

Is the Wolf related failure rate really higher than other ammo? We pay attention to failures that might be associated with it (just like some folks key in on 1911 failures, etc). However, if a similar failure occurs with brass cased ammo, does it get noticed as an ammo related failure or some failure with the gun or it's maintenance? I've heard of some of the same failures occuring with brass ammo, but people don't seem to blame the ammo itself in those situations.

Put another way...

If two identical guns, in identical (or nearly so) condition were used as a test, one given a diet (maybe 1k rounds?) of Wolf and the other a diet of Winchester White Box 223, which would have more problems? Of course, both would receive the same level of cleaning and maintenance during the test, etc.

Is the supposedly higher failure rate of Wolf due to lower quality or because people that shoot Wolf tend to shoot more, therefore firing more rounds between needed cleanings? Are failures with brass cased ammo recognized more as gun related failures rather than ammo related? I'd put my rifle to the test if someone would supply the ammo. Otherwise, I doubt I'd burn through that much ammo in a year.

Chris

[VirgilCaine]

My Mosin-Nagant loves Wolf 7.62x54r
My Chi-Com SKS loves Wolf 7.62x39
My EAA Saiga AK loves wolf 7.62x39
My BSA Martini International loves Wolf .22lr (as does all of my rimfire rifles)

My Colt Commander hates it.
My Ruger Mini-14 hates it.

[TomG160]

I shot 100 rounds today... it was not nearly as dirty as winchester white box, or UMC. (I heard it's been changed and doesn't shoot as dirty as it used to, and they got rid of the coating???? is this true anyone?). But I did have some problems with feeding in my taurus 27/4 in 40S&W. The price was right at gander mountain, so I had to try wolf in my .40, but I'm not quite happy. I'll keep shooting it in my SKS though with a HUGE smile on my face!!!

tom

[CDignition]

Really....when was the last time you changed an extractor on a quality firearm?

Just last week....

How bout on a remington 700? Would you toss Wolf down a remington 700?

Yes, sure..Rem Extractors are no big deal....but if it a varmint gun, whats the point, Wolf isnt accurate enough to bother.

Ever change the extractor in a BHP? or an M1 carbine?

Yup to both....

Hey, what happens when the case gets stuck, the extractor shears off, the next round is stripped off the mag and becasue there is a pice of the extractor floating around, the fresh round blows out of battery? (ive seen that one)...


Thus the reason for Saftey glasses and hearing protection.. :rolleyes:



All to save how much?

Ammoman has this:

Wolf: $139-1000 rounds.

223 LAKE CITY SS109 GREEN TIP 223 (PD Ammo, possibly out of spec) $229-1000 Rounds.

so for every 1000 rounds u save $90 bucks...thats 3 or 4 AR-15 extractors easy, in a Rem 700, thats one every thousand rounds(you dont charge $100 bux to replace one do ya??..if ya do, its highway robbery).

so there is real savings to be had here, especially for the guy that has 2 or 3 kids at home, and not alot of disposable income...


Agian, its amazing how some poples egos are so damaged by the very concept that what they like actually sucks.


Define Sucks....quality is subjective in this type of thing...some guys are happy if it goes bang everytime, and if they have to do some maint., no big deal..benchresters would laugh at the thought of using Wolf.



all in a days labor...lol.

[281 Quad Cam]

TomG has something of a point too.

I don't find wolf to be particularly dirty. Winchester White box typically leaves quite large powder grains and residue all over my Glock. Wolf not so dirty, and no large unburnt grains. So there is some American ammo you can run that is quite a ways dirtier than Wolf. That is only my experience.

In my SKS the Wolf doesn't leave it too dirty either. I run Wolf pretty much exclusively so I can't compare, however I can say that after a few hundred rounds, it isn't in need of a cleaning, no junk buildup anywhere. Save for some red crap from its primer sealant or whatever. But I never really did clean it all that good anyway, it's an SKS.

Wolf from what I hear used to be much worse than it is now. They are cleaning up their act so to speak.

If you aren't using an AR-15... Shoot it, try it... See how accurate it gets for you, see how dirty it makes your gun, choose your own destiny.

[Wildalaska]

some guys are happy if it goes bang everytime, and if they have to do some maint., no big deal.

I prefer to do my maintenance sporadically, not becasue out of spec ammo casues it

Wolf: $139-1000 rounds.223 LAKE CITY SS109 GREEN TIP 223 (PD Ammo, possibly out of spec) $229-1000 Rounds.so for every 1000 rounds u save $90 bucks...thats 3 or 4 AR-15 extractors easy

Sigh......like I said...ego needs...

Im sure if I searched around I could find ya a better deal...heck Im here in Alaska with all the extra shipping that entials and I am doing 223 for as little as $175 per thousand, brass case reloadable...but whatever....

WildthisisgettinsillyalreadyAlaska

[jsp98m3]

I could use some hot .25 handloads for my Raven.

I've been converted. I'm going to start carrying it. :)

Who's got 'em?

[bjmanersr]

My glocks in 40 and 45 will eat the stuff all day.My sons colt jams after a box or so.DIRTY!!!

[Samuel2001]

Just my .02 cents, but the only blown-up guns I have ever seen that were not because of crapy home brewed reloads, involved WOLF ammo!

Number 1 was a Bushy Dissapator that was being fiered with Wolf. Didn't destroy the rifle but when it was all said and done it needed a new bolt assembly.

Number 2 was a H&K USP in .45ACP. Blew out the magazine and broke the frame on the left side pretty good, as well as giving the shooter a pretty good gash on his mit. The customer paid H&K to replace the frame/firearm, and Wolf paid the customer the price of a new USP.

Number 3 was a Glock 21 also in .45ACP that one also blew the magazine out of the gun and blew the extractor clean off of the gun. The shooter was fine. Sent it to Smyrna and the boys there replaced the mag catch, extractor and gave him a new mag. As well as send him a letter telling him to not shoot WOLF again or they would not fix it again.

Personaly having seen this, I refuse to shoot this ammo, with the exeption of the 7.62x39mm stuff.

If you are brave enough or haven't had any problems with it, well shoot-on brotha.:)