Carbine for Home Defense

[Joven]

This is my first post, as I am a new member. I am looking for a little advice.
I have forever thought that the best HD weapon is a 12ga. loaded with buckshot and I am sure that many of you will agreee. But I am considering a carbine as my primary HD weapon. I have two small children who are upstairs, my wife and I downstairs. If a BG or multiple BG's enter the house there is the possibility of a hostage situation. In this scenario a shotgun is no ideal, the only option, IMO would be a head shot with carbine. I am thinking a .223 with low weight frangible ammo, Red dot type sight. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[azspyder]

Check out the Hi-point 9mm. Extremely accurate within 20 yards (certainly HD range) and absolutely reliable. At a price of under $200, you have money left for a tac light and a laser if you want. Ten rounds per mag and cheap ammo to boot. Check it out. Mine is equipped that way and is a stablemate to a similarly equipped 870 12 ga.

[308Enfield]

Welcome to TFL Joven. +1 on azspyder's recommendation of the Hi-Point. They're small, light, accurate, and you can get a variety of ammo in 9mm, most of which is pretty inexpensive. Let us know what you decide to do, everybody here likes to hear about what each other are buying :)

[Limeyfellow]

If its an hostage situration lead it to the police. Its unlikely you be able to get a headshot, take someone down and such with the adreneline going. Even trained hostage rescuerers wouldn't want to take that shot.

The carbine does have advantages though over a shotgun by the narrowness of the damage compared to the shotgun, and it will increase the power and range of pistol rounds and make them more accurate. I even picked up a Hi-point carbine recently and simply stick it under the arm. Its easy to bring up to firing and should take care of the problems we been having here with rabied bobcats.

[Bowtier]

Another +1 on azspyder's recommendation of the Hi-Point
This is almost Dejavu :)

[Blackwater OPS]

A carbine simply has WAY to much over penetration for HD. A 30-06 round wil go untill the curvature of the earth stops it or it hits little sally smith 2 blocks down, and that probably wont stop it either. A shotgun is ideal, I have had to choose between a SG and a SMG for urban barricaded entry(like HD but in reverse :) ) and I chose the SG everytime. I shotgun can fire 15 rounds at once, of nearly the same caliber of a subgun and can do so 6-7 times. As far a hostage shot keep a low-recoil rifled slug it the side carrier for that sitution, they are very accurate, more so than a pistol round, and they will not go 5000m before they stop. Frangible ammo is also often not effective, leave a very nasty but not man stopping 2-3in deep "crater" in the impact area but not hitting vital organs. Also, FYI, NEVER, EVER , use any non-slug/sabot SG in a hostage situation! The reason being not matter how tight your pattern, how close you are, or how good you are, that wad will fly wherever it wants to, it is NOT skill dependent!

[threefivesevenmag]

Load it with slugs or stagger your loads. Buckshot-Buckshot-Slug-Buckshot-Slug-Buckshot-Slug-Buckshot...or however you want to do it.

[darkvibe]

No advice on if it's good for HD, but i have a hi-point 9mm carbine and it's reliable and very accurate for the money. It feeds round nose perfectly. Never tried any HP in it. It doesnt like SWC.

[Clayfish]

An ar-15 is ideal for home defense. The .223 shot at those ranges will fragment and stop an intruder very quickly. It is much more accurate than any pistol. You can mount a light, laser, red dot, or whatever dohickies you want. I would use hp ammo in case of a miss because the round will penetrate sheetrock. Either the shotty or the .223 will treat you right in a hd situation.

[gb_in_ga]

"An ar-15 is ideal for home defense. The .223 shot at those ranges will fragment and stop an intruder very quickly."

Uh, not really, no. In fact, an AR-15 is really bad about overpenetrating walls. Check out the field test over at The Box 'O Truth:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2.htm

[shecky]

A carbine simply has WAY to much over penetration for HD. A 30-06 round wil go untill the curvature of the earth stops it or it hits little sally smith 2 blocks down, and that probably wont stop it either.

Who says a carbine has to be in .30-06?

[Mannlicher]

well, if you can guarantee a headshot in low light, with your adrenelin pumping, and a rifle you are not competant with in your hands, then go for it.

That aside, I do agree with ya to some extent. I like a Bushmaster shorty myself for HD.

[charliebravo]

Go with the carbine for HD. Make it a .223. AR, AK, Daewoo, hell, even the Kel-Tec SU-16 if you're strapped for cash. The .223. only overpenetrates with FMJ. When 55-62 grain soft points hit sheet rock, they fragment like hell. FBI did a study on it, then our SWAT guys (i'm a cop) actually re-tested FBi's data at the range and got the same results. We're ditching the MP-5s for our entry team and equipping them with 11.5" ARs.

[bdc]

Take a deep breath.

Background - many classes in structure takedown/hostage.

1. if you think that you are going to do it successfully without appropriate training, you will be dreaming. With training,you become cognizant of areas of fire, ballistics, penetration and gain confidence.

The guy who buys the Mossberg and blasts away may or may not have problems.

2. you need to drill your family about what to do in an emergency. I have a friend who trained his daughter what to do if she is in bed and there is a home fire. All you need is your people running around out of control, right?

I am not concerned about over penetration. You might. Do you think that you can consistently do head shots in low light in a hostage or potential hostage situation? No, you really can't. So you decide whether you use slugs or #8. #8 would not penetrate through a wall. COnversely, it might not put out someone's lights either. Your choice!

As for using an AR - I have built them from scratch, trained with them and all that jazz. Unless you use optics or a mounted flashlight or an eotech, they are exceptionally lousy for close in shooting in low light.The iron sights are way set off from the bore axis!

Some further comments.

I do some training. We have select slug drills. You act like you have the wrong ammo in the shotgun and go for a slug for between the eye shots in a hostage situation. Yeah, I agree, the drill is quite stupid. It is the end of a couple of long days. Ok, so I do the drill and take the bg out with a shot between the eyes. The instructor raves. I ask the instuctor why I have to use a slug when I had OO buck in the shotgun and I can shoot that well. His answer was that there was no guarantee that OO would take some one out across the room. Well, guys, if that is true, then what is the garbage about overpenetration - and you putting yourself at risk of death because you were forced to use no. 8 shot???

Why not train well enough that you can shoot a pistol, in low light, in strong side retention, with shots to the base of the throat? Same result, right? If your response is that you don't have the time or money to learn and practice perfectly, then why would you assume that you are going to spend the time and money to use a shotgun or rifle under the same conditions?

[Ozzieman]

For home defence with children in the house I use a short 12 gage pump shotgun (postol grip) with bird shot. Thats right BIRD SHOT
In side of 10 feet there is little difference from a slug and will quickly loose energy through two layers of drywall.
If you hit some one center mass with a 12 gage bird shot as 10 feet that person is not going to do much other than fall down.
If there are hostages, the best thing is to call poliece and let some one that is trained in working with the problem, your just going to get your loved ones killed.
A 223 is the worst weapon you could use in a house with others, your neighbors are also in danger.
One of the other advantages of a 12 gage pump, the noise of loading a pump will put the scare in to mose people.
And stay away from Hi-point firearms the only good thing I can say about them is that they are cheep.
I have sold them, and fired them, cheep thats all they are. They cant hold a candle to a beretta storm carbine even at 1/3 times the price.

[SJRTX]

Article here: http://www.olyarms.com/?page=223articles


FBI Ballistic Tests
As a result of renewed law enforcement interest in the .223 round and in the newer weapons systems developed around it, the FBI recently subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.

Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.

These tests were conducted by the FBI’s Firearms Training Unit (FTU), at the request of the Bureau Tactical and Special Operations personnel. Located at the FBI academy in Quantico, VA, this is the same unit with the encouragement of forensic pathologist Dr. Martin Fackler and other ballistic experts, that dramatically advanced the testing of modern handgun rounds to estimate their wounding effectiveness and potential lethality. Ultimately, this entity confirmed that permanent crush cavities, or "wound-channels," and deep penetration were the primary factors for handgun-fired projectiles. The FTU further determined that under various target engagement circumstances, a depth of penetration in soft tissue of between 12 to 18 inches was required for a handgun bullet to be effective.


Barriers and Structures
The Bureau’s research also suggests that common household barriers such as wallboard, plywood, internal and external walls are also better attacked with pistol rounds, or larger caliber battle rifles, if the objective is to "dig out" or neutralize people employing such object as cover or concealment. Although it is usually not advisable to fire at targets you can’t see in urban settings, it is done and some subjects have been stopped in this manner. Conversely, the ability of some pistol rounds to penetrate barriers tested puts innocent bystanders and fellow team members at greater risk in CQB scenarios. If an operator misses the intended target, the .223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicated that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tent to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The .223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments. In other words, in most shootings, the round would probably strike something, hopefully a hard object, break up and quickly end its potentially lethal odyssey.

As a point of interest, the rifled shotgun slug, while not possessing the .223’s flat trajectory, is still capable of attaining a maximum range of 900 yards. This fact illustrates that any errant law enforcement round regardless of caliber, or maximum range, is potentially dangerous to the community.


The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for overpenetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested

[Blackwater OPS]

.223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets.

To be frank, I do not believe this.

[SJRTX]

If it makes any difference to you, I believe they were test firing through a SMG type gun like an MP5- so the barrel length was probably double the normal 4" that most test with.

[Harley Quinn]

Choice is a Short barreled (18 1/4") shotgun loaded with........add in your preferred.

But my preferred is not the big buck shot 33 cal traveling at 1300+. I prefer the smaller shot. Like has already been said, stagger the type of shells in your shotgun or not....

If you want to read another post on this topic find the one about Buckshot vs Birdshot... Lively debate. :D

Harley

[Blackwater OPS]

Staggering shells is worthless, in the heat of the moment you will *NOT* remember what shell is next or how many shots you fired. And even if you did what do you do the next shell is not what you want? Eject it? Smart. :rolleyes:

[kozak6]

If you can afford to wait, Hi-Point should have a .45 ACP carbine in January, should you so prefer.

[T. O'Heir]

Pay very close attention to what bdc says. Especially point 1. However, no matter what firearm or ammo you use, you are responsible for where any bullet goes. If you fire a shot that does not hit what you aimed at and it hits anything or anybody else, you are responsible.
Given your scenario, the only .223 ammo you should even think about is a varmint bullet. They're designed to literally explode on contact. Mind you, unless, like bdc says, you're trained and exprienced enough to shoot that well at your kid, forget it.
In any case, no stock AR-15 is accurate nor handy enough. Don't even think Mini-14. I must admit, though, that I wouldn't think twice about taking a close range, high risk, shot with my Plainfield M-1 Carbine. I know exactly where the 110 grain HP will go and I know my rifle will do it. I've had it a very long time.
"...pistol grip..." Only? The absolutely most useless firearm on Earth is a shotgun with just a pistol grip. You have no control whatsoever.

[45-70]

Take a defensive or combat shotgun course, or at a minimum try patterning a 12-gauge with birdshot or buckshot in inside-the-house distances. You will likely find that you will be as comfortable with a 12-gauge as a carbine in taking a head shot in a hostage situation with buckshot or birdshot (my preference would be buck, but if not, #4 or #5 birdshot) at 20 feet. I took a self defense shotgun course from Texas Pistol Academy and was amazed at the tight patterns you get at short range, even with an open choke.

But serious training is a good idea regardless of the weapon you choose. We trained to do headshots in hostage situations, among other things. I am now quite comfortable with a regular stock, short-barreled Winchester 1300 with 4-ought buck for home defense.

[stratus]

About the issue with .223s, to use one in a house would be nothing short of insane. For outdoor home defense (say if you have some property out in the country), it's probably a bit better-suited, but you still run the risk of shooting your neighbor's cows. This is not a concern for my uncle who lives on a big ranch that is densely populated with very thick pine trees. He uses an AR-15 A2. God those are fun. Unfortunately that does not make them well-suited to urban home defense. Let me reiterate: that would be insane. :)

There are ways to at least try and prepare for the contingency of a hostage situation, and that is to get everyone in the same room and guard the door with that shotgun and don't let anything through. That only applies if you realize there is an intruder before a hostage situation ensues... I don't know how to advise you in such an instance. Your aim must be absolutely dead-on or the unthinkable will happen. I think the best way is to avoid such a situation ever occuring, and achieve some means to alert you to an intruder the moment they get in the door, cram your family into a room that has only one way in and out, get them huddled in a corner with no windows, and blast at anything that moves while you stand at the only doorway there is.

[Ozzieman]

There was a bad guy shooting here about 10 years ago and 2 perps held up in a house and a not so smart (DUMB) cop opened up with a AR-16 with solid tip ammow, but NOT armor perc.
Several rounds went through the house and through the neighbors garbage can over 100 yards from the perps house.
They had the neighbor on TV complaning about the poliece showing the holes and I can promiss you that they were not drilled.
Both her and two children were in the house.
223 is a wonderful round, but to let one off is crazzy anywhere within a neighborhood.

[KyJim]

A secondary factor to consider when choosing a home defense weapon is how it will appear to LEO and prosecutors after the fact. It is not the most important factor but you should at least think about it.

A 12 guage shotgun loaded with #6 or #4 shot is a hunting weapon employed for self-defense (sorry, no pistol grip). An AR-15 type weapon is a high powered military assault rifle purchased by a fanatic just waiting for someone to wander into their sights. A handgun is somewhere in between.

I know the above paragraph is not true, but if you live in a city/state which is anti-gun, you must take this into consideration. I know there are at least a couple of states that actually say you have a duty to retreat from your home if possible.

As for me, I use a 12 guage with #6 shot along with either a .357 mag or .45 ACP.

[gb_in_ga]

A> In a urban/suburban setting, I feel that any of the assault rifle/carbine solutions are unwise, just because you really can't tell where that round will end up going, and they WILL shoot through as many walls as there are -- unless frangible bullets are used, and I'm not convinced about their terminal effectiveness.
B> In that same setting, pistols are not all that much better, for the same reason.
C> Shotgun slugs are even worse.
D> The old shotgun standby -- 00 Buckshot -- overpenetrates walls as well.
E> Unfortunately, birdshot doesn't really penetrate enough in the BG to reliably take him down.

Keep in mind that solutions A-D are all at least acceptable with respect to terminal effectiveness on the BG. But they all have associated risk of overpenetration of interior/exterior walls, and that makes them less than ideal in an urban/suburban setting.

My conclusion: The best solution is a shotgun loaded with buckshot in the #4 to #1 range -- big enough to adequately penetrate the BG, not so large as to shoot all the way through the house.

Family plan: Excellent idea.

Hostage situation: If faced with a hostage situation, My Most Humble Opinion is that the lone civilian homeowner is going to be ill-equiped and ill-prepared to deal with that situation no matter what he is equiped with. Hostage rescues are mucho sticky situations. I'd advise the wise homeowner to back off enough to not further aggravate the situation and yet make sure that the BG doesn't abscond with the hostage -- and then call 911. This is a job for the pros, let them do it, they have the training and equipment to do the job right. If Johnny Hotshot Homeowner armed with whatever goes barging in with gun(s) ablaze, in all likelihood the hostage is gonna get killed.

[gb_in_ga]

"A 12 guage shotgun loaded with #6 or #4 shot is a hunting weapon employed for self-defense (sorry, no pistol grip)."

Valid point, but then again so is a shotgun rigged for deer hunting loaded with buckshot, IMHO a more potent SD/HD combination. Besides that, it has a shorter, handier barrel with a choke more suited to the SD/HD role than a gun with a longer barrel that has a tighter choke designed for bird hunting.

"I know the above paragraph is not true, but if you live in a city/state which is anti-gun, you must take this into consideration."

I give thanks every day that where I live is NOT one of those places. Where I am here in Ga and back home in Tx they are really reasonable about that sort of thing. A good shoot is a good shoot, what is used is really irrelevant from a legal liability standpoint -- as it should be.

[psycho nut]

Penitration is going to be a problem with almost every caliber out there, I would go with a shotgun. If you want accuracy get some slugs.
If you have to shoot I would hope you knew where everyone in your family is.

[zipperzap]

You've got a nice board here.

My 2¢ is a pump .12GA/short barrel/my personal
preference is a Defender/ with #4 or#5 shot. It's a
100% winner, every time. Can't miss! I got my
first introduction in '68 - Tet - Hue. Never missed
a beat, never missed my man ... in 1 1/2 weeks of
house to house/street to street. ... except we
weren't using no stinkin birdshot! LOL

[JohnKSa]

Premium self-defense .223 ammunition will not overpenetrate. In fact, it often penetrates less than handgun ammunition.

In fact, even FMJ (not AP) .223 won't penetrate as deeply as .45 or 9mm FMJ.

Check out the graphics on this page.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Note that the two military issue 5.56 FMJ rounds penetrates only a couple of cm farther than the lowly .38spl +P LSWCHP.

May not seem intuitive but it's true.

[E-5 82nd AB]

Y'all forgot about one small carbine. The M-1 Carbine, with its 110 gr. FMJ / SP rounds, it'll make short order of a BG in your 10-20 / AO. Or even a Winchester Carbine or Trapper in .30-30 downloaded with 125 gr. HP or 110 gr. as stated above. I keep a nice old Universal M-1 Carbine loaded with 15 rounds of UMC 110 gr. FMJ for BG's and the M-1911A1 .45 ACP and eight rounds of PMC 230 gr. FMJ too. Plus, the Pit Bull. ;)

If I have to use these too, I will. My M-1 Garand Bayonet or my M-1 Carbine Bayonet, or the Ka Bar, yes, I not only own an M-1 Garand Bayonet, I own the rifle too. CMP Greek H&R dated to 8-54. I can zip off a groundhog at 400 yards with it too.

[Ramcharger]

A .357 magnum (125 Gr sjhp) only penetrated one wall (two sheets of drywall and the thin plywood cabinet door under the sink. It bounced off the stove or dryer (metal) and lay in the middle if the floor.

When the chick in the apartrment accross the sidewalk shot at the wall next to her window when someone was trying to breaK IN THE 9MM went through the inside drywall and the outer stucco wall and the cops found the bullet about six feet from the wall in the grass.

BTW i shot a tempered car glass window (rear window glass it think) came accross in the desert with a 115 gr 9mm FMJ. the bullet shattered the glass but STOPPED. It was in the pile of glass in the ground.

Anyways these are my experinces your milage may vary... :cool:

[E-5 82nd AB]

But what did the 158 gr. .357 Mag. do?

[StormTrooper]

I got the 9mm Beretta Cx4 for range practice and for personal defense. I am very pleased with it. Good modest length, accurate, reliable, modular, easy to strip down and maintain and best of al.....I'm completely left hand dominant. Thank you Beretta for thinking of the south paw.

[Ramcharger]

The M1 cabine will make a great HD weapon.

If you lived say next to a druggie house and there was a real danger of some bad dudes going to your house by mistake... to say rob drug dealin' neigbor but got the numbers mixed up.. then yea you will be faceing at least four real bad hombres. The M1 Carbine will make a great equalizer if you have one.

[E-5 82nd AB]

Ramcharger, I concur! ;)

[Joven]

Thanks for all the good info guys. What I am hearing is that everyone argrees that the 12 gauge is at least acceptable. No one seems to think that the 12 gauge is a bad choice. Some think that carbine is good choice but some also think that it is not the best choice. If the majority rules it would be the shotgun.

[VaughnT]

Shotgun v. AR? Well, what about continuity of training? I run a semi-auto, mag fed pistol at work as my primary defense. Working a slide-action shotgun is a whole nuther animal. This means two types of training, two types of motor function.

What about varying users? Husband, wife, children, parents, aunts, uncles, friends.....just who might be called upon to use this weapon to protect themselves or another? Can my mom, for example, use that 870? More importantly, can she use it effectively, including reloading, and not worry about short-stroking the slide? Will my nephew be able to employ the Mossy 590 and save my bacon when that rabid dog is circling me?

After thinking about the types of people that might need to use one of my carbines, and nothing else, I had to take factors than penetration into account. My choice, after doing all this question asking, was to go with an AR. I didn't come to this conclusing immediately.

Like some, I thought to keep things as simple as possible and chose the Marlin Camp Carbine M45 for home defense. What better for a HD carbine than something chambered for my pistol caliber and using my pistol magazines? Bad idea!

While the longer bbl give ample time for a +P powdercharge to achieve full burn, thus increasing the power in the bullet, the platform sucked big ones. Marlin really dropped the ball with this carbine, and should be ashamed.

After that experience, I opted for the AR in a fairly simply M4-style. The flat-top receiver will allow me to mount an optical sight should I ever decide to, but I probably won't. The railed forend, just recently purchased, drops straight in, no mods/gunsmiths, and gives me a place to mount a flashlight so I can ID perps in the darkened interior. The collapsing stock allows me to shorten the LOP when plinking in heavy winter clothes, or to train my little nephew on basic marksmanship, or for some lady that might like to shoot.

Nothing fancy, no frills to go wrong, and a minimum invested.

For in-house ammo, my barrel has a 1/7" twist. Because this is rather fast, I chose to load up the first mag with UMC 45g JHP ammo. From what I gather, the fast twist of the barrel will make this round very unstable after contact, with a max of around 8" of penetration in gelatin. The chances of it being a great danger after penetrating a wall, esp the walls in this old farmhouse, are slim. The backup mag on the buttstock is loaded with 55g FMJ, just in case I need penetration or harder hitting power for a rabid dog or barrier penetration.

With a good two-point sling (I'm trying the VTAC) and a light source, you have a short, light, maneuverable carbine that is good for plinking, training, and defense. Nothing fancy. No frills to go wrong. And a minimum invested.

Just my thoughts, though. Your mileage may vary.

[yorec]

I can't believe all the falacies presented in this thread.... :eek:

And I am not going to take the time to try to debunk each.

Suffice it to say I am very well trainned with hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of formal firearm trainning and a career of experience in handling and conducting in building raids and searches of the sort this issue most addresses. Have experienced a hostage scenario a time or two also, though no one ever had to be shot...

That said - I choose the same two long arms I use for my current gun games. (3 gun matches) The Remington 11-87 in 12 ga and my Colt AR15. The SG is loaded with #4 bridshot when at home and a few extra slugs in the butt carrier. The AR is loaded with Hornady TAP. I use different ammo at work for both. As far as I'm concerned, they represent the best weapons available for HD - I own many different types of weapons already mentioned here from which I could have chosen... My biggest problem is which I grab in the case of something going on in my house. But not to worry, the wife will have the other one! :cool:

Just my opinions mind.

[VaughnT]

Yorec, at least tell me about the TAP ammo. What weight are you shooting? How's the penetration? Secondary penetration after the gelatin block? Performance against animals? Don't tease me, now!

[john in jax]

Joven, believe it or not, there are more carbine configurations available out there than there are oppinions on your thread". Do you hunt at all? A multipurpose carbine, one that can be used for plinking, hunting and home defense might be just what you are looking for.

.30cal M1 Carbine - An oldy but a goody from WWII

Ruger 44mag Carbine - Older models have tubular magazines. Newer models are clip fed. The .44 mag is a bit much for home defense inside a frame and sheetrock house, but they are very fun to shoot.

Marlin .45acp or 9mm Camp Carbines - I don't know if they are still making these but they were quick little rifles.

Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30 - A good all around weapon. Sure there weapons out there that are better, but the Mini configuration is a great all around/versitile package. I personally prefer the Mini-30.

The list of carbines and their good/bad points is endless, I think you are going to need at least a couple.

[k9lwt]

A 12ga. slug will overpenetrate and obviously if you are looking for a head shot with a hostage, 00 will not work either.

I would go with the .223 with a 55gr. Less penetration, better round for my money.

[hillmillenia]

A shotgun loaded with a light bird shot will not overpenetrate but WILL stop an intruder at room distances. I personally keep my 1911 .45 loaded with Glasers or any good prefrag ammo. Practice spot shooting at 10 ft. until you can shoot the nuts off a mosquitoe.;)

[StormTrooper]

"A 12 guage shotgun loaded with #6 or #4 shot is a hunting weapon employed for self-defense (sorry, no pistol grip). An AR-15 type weapon is a high powered military assault rifle purchased by a fanatic just waiting for someone to wander into their sights"

KyJim,

I think this here was a poor statement to make. This generalizes many here on this board and if nobody else will say it I will. It is loaded with ignorance.
I am not sitting at the ready with a hard on to kill someone, the topic here was asking what is a good carbine for "Home Defense". Thats what I have a carbine for home "defense". If you preference is a scatter gun thats great, nothng wrong with your choice, but then there is nothing wrong with ours either. Do our assault rifles frighten you?

[VaughnT]

Storm, I think KyJim was trying to illustrate how the City Officials/LEOs and the media will look at an AR used in a defensive situation by a law-abiding joe, and not making a negative statement about the people on this board. Whether it's fair or not, it is a very real sentiment among the unlearned.

[StormTrooper]

Vaughn,

if that is the case, then I have been put in my place and apologize for the remark. It wasn't a personal attack I was trying to make.

KYJim,

My apologies to you.

[Shot_24]

38 spl+P + M1 30cal carbine= bases covered.

[bedula32]

I could not care less about what the responding LEO's think. I care somewhat about what the DA thinks. I care considerably about what a jury would think. Find me one real case where a reasonable person would conclude that had the 'defender' only used a more benign weapon there would not have been a conviction. It does not make the slightest difference what you use to hurt/kill someone if you were legally within your rights to use deadly force. That is the ONLY question that needs to be answered and if things are so muddy in that regard that you have to hope the type of weapon used was politically correct enough to somehow tip the balance in your favor you already made your biggest mistake. I find these types of questions regarding political correctness of weaponry as silly as asking if one would be better wearing a plain, pinstripe, or a plaid suit to their trial because of how one might be perceived by the jury for one's fashion sense. "Should I wear earthtones or bold colors?" If you are placing your fate in someones superficial perception of you, or your guns, you are in big trouble. Know the law and stay within its boundaries.

[Shot_24]

Wow angry:( I was just saying my choices for ease of use, reliability, no over penatration.

[Jericho9mm]

If you are placing your fate in someones superficial perception of you, or your guns, you are in big trouble. Know the law and stay within its boundaries.

Wow. I understand the logic and the emotion behind the above post but if you are making such statements you have obviously not been informed of or in touch with how things are in the real world. Perception is the key to many situations in life, it may be sad but it is true. And the way people work may not measure up to your ideal vision of what is the law and justice but in the real world people are constantly making decisions on the basis of perception. Which is why when there is a person with serious issues who gets a hold of a gun and does evil things all of us as gun owners and RKBA advocates shudder becasue of how we will be perceived.

Perception is also the reason that many anti-gunners want to paint all gun owners as slightly crazed or unbalanced or a felony waiting to happen. For example one of reasons that we have to go through extensive background checks in some states is becasue they perceive that this will stop the aquisition of guns by criminals. Either way one should care how LEO perceives the defensive situation becasue his perception will be what he testifies in court for or against, as for me i would rather have them with me than against me. Also we live in a society and benefit greatly from that and there are rules for living in a society, having guns motivates most people to behave themselves in society and whether you like it or not other people in society have perceptions. I am not saying what gun you should use or how you should use it when protecting you and yours, but, be aware of the damage to the perception of gun owners when you carelessly spout off.:cool:

[Rimrod]

If you first hear a noise upstairs what will you do? Take your chosen firearm upstairs and confront Mr. Yuk in the doorway to the kids room, putting them directly in the line of fire? And at the same time leaving your wife unprotected down stairs? If you hear the noise downstairs, will you walk out of the room to investigate and leave your wife alone in the bedroom or do you stay in the room and leave your kids unprotected? And about the headshot in a hostage situation, with your own family member as a hostage. With all due respect sir if you had the skill and capability to do that you would not be posting a thread on here asking a bunch of people you do not know what you should use. If you are intent on having a weapon or in your case it should be weapons so your wife can help. Learn how to shoot and when to shoot to the point you can decide for yourself what would be best in your house. I don't care for the "modern techniques" taught by every one and his brother, they will get you killed and I say that from experience. But learn something. In the mean time get an alarm system and a nice loud dog.
Rimrod

[too many choices!?]

Don't forget your backstop though...This should go for WHATEVER HOME DEFENSE WEAPON YOU CHOOSE:) ...

As long as your home defense AR does not have a 20" barrel(mine has a 14 1/2" barrel), and you use proper ammo selection for your home's construction/location, overpenetration is a secondary concern. Hitting the B/G with all rounds fired is your first:eek: ! I serioulsy doubt that an AR-15 bullet that enters and exits a B/G, will be an overpenetration issue to anyone outside the house,remembering that at HD ranges all AR bullets should tumble( if not fragment)...

So how about we don't shoot unless we can hit what we aim at, and overpenetration issues become moot....I use a Scorpion(LED) light, and a red dot, for my home defense carbine, all mounted forward, to help dampen muzzle jump(the AK muzzle brake helps to). The results are a carbine that can be set up for anything from a night time/defensive carbine(red dot and light and no recoil/muzzle climb), to a 100 yds bench gun/varminter(remove dot/light and add 3-9x scope), or just a light fast day time carbine with iron sights only(add removable carry handle, remove everthing else)...All transformations can be done in less than a minute or two. Aren't Rails great!!!

PS-A short barrel will generate less velocity, so the bullet(s) will travel less and have less energy to do secondary damage outside it's intended target area. Especially after hitting a wall or two, or hopefully the B/G...

Too Many Choices!?(and the AR-15 should definitely be one of them)...

[CarbineCaleb]

I think a pistol-chambered carbine, anywhere from 9mm to .44 Magnum is a fine choice. It has enough power for terminal effect, but can be fired much more accurately than a handgun, and will have milder report and recoil than a 12 gauge or a deer rifle. The two factors always stressed are placement and followup shots, and a light carbine is a great performer in both those areas. One advantage of a handgun if you have children though is that they are more easily safed than a long gun.

[Duxman]

+1 to CC here.

9mm carbine in the form of a CX4 Storm Beretta is my favorite choice as an alternative to my 12 GA pump. It is deadly accurate, low recoil, and I know exactly where all my shots are going. Plus with the rail system I can attach lasers and flashlights to make HD easier.

[StormTrooper]

Duxman

I have done just that with my Storm, RedDot sight and forward lighting under the barrel. I also keep a mag loaded with 135grn low velocity hydroshocks. Hopefully that will do it. The Storm is accurate and more so with the RedDot, as well as balanced and due to its size very manuverable. I would grab the Storm well before a shotgun.

[BerettaCougar]

What ever you choose, please take a home clearing course with that weapon or something of the same size.

A few months ago I took a private class about clearing homes with a shotgun that a friend of mine was holding, he is in ERT (Ermergency response team) for the Tampa PD.

Clearing a house with a shotgun is tricky, especially when clearing around corners, you dont want to have the gun exposed because you dont want someone grabbing it from your blindsides, also you dont want to have it up or down, because someone can run to you and grab it, rendering the gun useless.

The best (in my opinion) home clearing class I took was with a knife. They (a good instructor) teach you how to use your weapon as if it was part of your body, really good stuff.

Some of you might remember my thread about going into condition black, well a good instructor teaches you how to try to avoid that, what i was told is that when i feel myself going into condition black, to just get down behind something using a wall or somehting else as support for my body and cover myself while breathing deeply until i regain control of my body.

[too many choices!?]

I repectfully disagree...My AR15pistol(PDW), has less felt recoil than a 9mm carbine, has both advantages of the carbine and pistol(only ~24" long), can be shot like a hand gun(icoseles position, even with the heavy barrel + 30 rounder:)), and can be shot like an AOW(with a hand on the mag well), or like a carbine with shoulder to buffer tube(but can be painfull if I don't get under the coller bone into that ,"pocket", of my upper pec muscle and shoulder)...

So go out and buy/build your own PDW AR-15 Pistol!! With a 10 1/2" H-bar, it really sucks up recoil and muzzle jump.

I guess I cheated while answering the posted question, since I use a .223 carbine(Bushie M4), as well as a .223 caliber pistol/carbine(PDW), , and two handguns(oh and don't forget the Ak hiding behind my underwear :)...

My AR-pistol is the Bushmaster M4's side kick, and a soon as I figure out how to conceal it, it will become my,"Concealed Carry For Winter:)", bump in the night duty weapon, plus my car gun; replacing the Glock .40(which I will get to concealed carry now that it's winter, Hooray:))...I am thinking,"Tactical Scabard", either," Ninja-style" , on the back, or ,"Samurai-style", weak side cross draw for the PDW, with Glock 23 strong side at about 4 O'clock....Just need a Trench Coat now(lol), and I am ready for any Texas-style SHTF. Idiot with an AK , I can grab the PDW outta the car...More mundane threat(street thug), yet still life threatening, run with what I got on me, the Glock 23 in .40 or the Millinium Taurus .45...

PS-I sleep with my PDW-AR-Pistol or M4(locked loaded,safety on, next to or in bed always) , MY Glock 23(holstered in a Fobus w 15+1 rounder) on me or in a drawer(loaded), or my Taurus(off safe, chambered, and under the pillow with 11 rounds).

(isn't having)Too Many Choices!?(great!:D)

[stephen426]

I'm glad I found this post. There are a lot of good points being made, even if some of them are conflicting. I never thought about a hostage situation.

I am still partial to my .45 rather than my shotty due to manuverability. I don't have any kiddies yet so I don't have to worry about others outside of my room. If I was barricading myself in, I would go with the shotty. If I was clearing the house (I know many think this equals suicide) I would use the .45. I think it is crazy to call the cavalry everytime you hear a bump in the night. My dog will usually confirm if there is an intruder or not by either barking her head off or dragging in their badly mauled cadaver.

As for my AR-15, I gave the HBAR with the 20" barrel. I have a full stock so I face the same problem as the 870 for manuverability. I know any of the guns fired without hearing protection will be loud, but the .223 really makes a lot of noise.

Even though the AR is probably my 3rd or 4th choice, I do keep it loaded with the Hornady TAPs which were previously mentioned. They are loaded with V-Max varmit rounds which have a plastic ballistic tip covering a nasty hollow point. I haven't shot anyone with these (or anything else thank God) but I imagine that they make a nasty wound. The V-Max offer less penetration but should shread whatever it does come in contact with.

I hope none of us ever end up in this kind of situation. As already stated, work harder at keeping the bad guys out and you won't have to worry about these kinds of scenarios as much.

[too many choices!?]

I ,'Open Carry', at home, as their is no law requiring concealed carry in the house:)...

PS- I have no kids, and no desire to have someone constantly draining my gun fund. So no,"Girlfriend", in the traditional sense of the word either. I do have associates, and they know my guns come first;) ...

[JR47]

I'm not going to be clearing my house at night. If I find evidence of an intruder, I fall back into the 911 mode, and will wait until either the intruder openly approaches, or the LEOs arrive. In that case, a 12 ga. will be the primary arm. My wife has her SA 1911A1 to back me up.

The house is alarmed, with battery back-up, and wireless hook-up to the phone system in the street. LEO response is under 5 minutes.

As for answering the door. We have a wide angle peep, a well-lit approach, and no vegetation to hide anyone in. There is a pistol in easy reach to pick-up prior to even approaching the door. Our neighbors on both sides also utilize motion sensor floods, as do we. One of the neighbors is a retired couple, and the other is running a business from their home.

I do not routinely arm myself to put out the trash, and wouldn't live in a neighborhood where that was necessary. The neighbors here are all armed, as well.

Depending upon construction, distance, and your layout, a carbine may be a viable arm. Pistol or rifle caliber will also be very dependent upon those circumstances, and the presence of others in close proximity, such as children or other residents in different areas of the habitat.

Hardening your residence will go a long ways towards alleviating the necessity of your choices.:)

[Hunter Rose]

the "bump in the night" guns for us are the Storm and 92. The 92 is on my side of the bed, in my hand while I retrieve the Storm from it's home in our bedroom. Then the 92 is given to Spoon...

With a decent light slung under the barrel, and 45 rds on demand, and plenty of accuracy within household distances, the Storm (to me) is the perfect choice...

[claude783]

A lever action rifle in the 38/357 caliber can be used in a HD situation. It is a small, fast handling gun. Can be loaded with 38 spl. ammo which would cut down on it's penetration.

Loaded with the 357 it comes in as an anemic 30-30. The 357 caliber really benefits from the longer barrel...

Since you are using a handgun caliber, it is beneficial to have a handgun chambered in the same caliber.

I have a mod.66 tarus while wify-poo has a Rossi Mod 92 (carbine) both are in the 357 so there is no problem with ammo...can toss a speed loader back and forth and either gun can function.

I should also mention that the 38/357 in the rifle has no recoil!

[ddelange]

First I'll state the truth before quibbling about the less important facts. Both weapons are adequate for home defense. However, after using both, and relying on a Moss 590A1 with SureFire foreend for years, I've switched to what I think is the best home defense weapon made: a Colt M4, loaded with a 55 gr. 5.56 mm NATO M193 cartridge. The only weapon I think is even close is the SIG 552 (I believe: 8-10" barrel), smaller than the M4, comes with Picatinny rails for mounting lights, sights, and a completely folding stock makes it more compact than the M4, but I think that's a minor difference for home defense. Anyway, it's still illegal for civillians to buy, while if you look hard you can know get your hands on a real Colt M4 that is identical to the type our US Armed Special Forces CQB house to house search teams use, our SWAT teams use. All these teams are quickly abandoning the MP-5 because the M4 has far better terminal ballistics than the 9mm MP-5, especially against BG's with body armor. M4 still stops the BG, MP-5 bounces off body armor. And don't think BG's don't use body armor. Here in Phoenix a couple years ago, a couple BGs with body armor posing as Bounty Hunters invaded a house with an innocent man and his wife. The home owner and his wife were armed with pistols; their rounds bounced off. The BG Bounty Hunters killed the couple; they were looking for drugs and cash, but were at the wrong address. So, I digress, but give you a couple reasons to consider a M4 or a Bushmaster M4 type rifle. With a light and an Aimpoint red dot sight, nothing comes close. . . . . . oh yeah I did say that a shotgun would get the job done if mounted with a light. . . . . ;)
djd

[Pilot]

I like the ideas of the M1 Carbine with the 110 gr. soft points.

I thought about an SKS, but overpenetration would be an issue.

[BloodyBucket03]

A carbine would be a great HD weapon. I have many of the firearms mentioned through the numerous treads from my M-1 Carbine, AR-15 Carbine, and Mossberg 500 Shotgun. In a situation that would involve an unwanted intruder I would probably go with my AR-15. Just because I have two 40 round mags joined with a Samco Mag clinch right next to my bed. A Shotgun is a great weapon but can be a little messy but will definitely do the job. My M-1 Carbine I actually bought for my wife just in case I was out of town and she needed a good HD rifle. I really recommend the M-1 Carbine for a woman because of the simplicity of loading, firing, and the lightweight.