Concerned about potential results of a foolish action...

[magnumenthused]

Hi guys. Be forewarned, this is a long post. Please read when you're not in a rush...

Awhile back I posted on here asking some information about a .357 magnum I was soon to receive as a hand-me-down gift from my father. I now have that magnum, it's a wonderful gun, and in my eyes a very effective home defense weapon. But last night I pulled a majorly foolish play. Best I can tell so far, there were (thank God) no tragic or really damaging results (other than a hole in the wall), but I would like input on it...

Last night I put my .357 under my pillow per usual, as it is my defensive firearm. However like a complete idiot, I was trying to test my reaction time, acting as if someone broke in. I've done this before, and I believe due to an underlying worry because I've never had to stop someone breaking into my home, and therefore wondering if I would be quick enough should that happen. I have always grown up properly around firearms, and have a long track record of using them very safely/frowning upon those who don't, except this action I describe here in recent times, which I'm not particularly proud of. I'm considering a self-defense course to learn how to properly handle such a situation, instead of guessing at it.

Anyway, so I proceeded with this extreme bonehead play of testing my reaction time, but unlike before, this time when I cocked the hammer and placed my finger on the trigger, in my tired state I fired the weapon. I'm shocked my roommate didn't wake up asking me what the **** just happened. I got up, turned the light on, and looked for what I shot, and I shot a hole thru the wall about 2 to 3 inches above the floor. I am on the 2nd floor in a 3 story apartment building.

I went outside and looked at the building. The bullet of course had gone through (details on the ammunition and firearm will follow this story). So I checked several cars in the parking lot then and even today and there seem to be no broken windows or other damage. And no ambulances or anything have come to the complex or some nearby place. Only one round was fired.

The input I'm looking for is how possible it is that someone got hurt in another apartment building, or that something was damaged. Here is the info I can provide...

Firearm: Taurus .357 model 66 hunting revolver, 6" non-vented barrel, black rubber grips, 6 shot, double action.

Ammunition: .357 case, low-power .38 target load. Semi-wadcutter all-lead bullet (the sort that looks like the conical tip is a dunce cap with the top half cut off) with a proper .7cc measurement of Hercules Red Dot powder, Winchester primer.

What is the chance that after going through the wall, it could have still travelled approximately the distance of a football field or more and still gone through another wall, either brick or siding?

I'm just deeply concerned that someone may have gotten hurt or killed at worst, or that other property damage beyond the hole in my wall was done. This definitely taught me a lesson to not fool around like such a moron again. Any input?

TIA,
Daniel

[Wraith]

I don't know how the building is constructed but hopefully you hit some steel or concrete. I would doubt the penetration of an all lead wadcutter .38 target load... unless you live in a wood building.

That's all I'm gonna say. I think a lot of replies here will tell you to report the mishap.

[magnumenthused]

Best I can tell it probably would have hit steel or concrete, or fallen to dirt. I'm about to go outside again and search an area where I suspect it might have hit. If I do report the mishap, assuming nobody was hurt and nobody's cars or windows were broken or what not (i.e. just a hole in my wall and a nick on distant bricks or concrete/a deep divit in the dirt), would I be facing any sort of charges? I'm in Texas.

[magnumenthused]

update: it seems that the path of the bullet might have been slowed by moderately thick foliage on trees, and overall, where it wouldve hit had it continued going would have been a brick wall, yet there is no evidence of damage, and I also see no broken windows or anything.

[Impact of Reason]

lesson learned: don't practice firearm drills in your home with a loaded weapon.

also consider getting hollowpoints for self-defense. they will do more damage to an intruder and have a lower chance of overpenetration.

last thing, learn from your mistake, and be careful.

[magnumenthused]

Lesson learned well!!! Sad to say I'm one of those fellows that must learn by personal experience sometimes. Not entirely though. Never NEVER doing that again.

Thank you both so much for replying intelligently without shooting me down (pun not intended) on how stupid and careless my actions were.

Speaking of hollow points, my dad forgot to give me and has set aside for my pickup, his old speedloader equipped with 6 semi-jacketed hollow points.

Now I've learned that with the design of a hollow point, expansion is very rapid, thereby increasing damage, but I thought that the bullet left the body with a much larger hole in back than in front. Does it actually tend to stay in the body only doing massive internal damage?

My main concern with ever having to defend myself is that the bullet would pass through and catch an innocent party when I'm only trying to save my own life and that of anyone else living with me (i.e. my roommate as of right now).

[ATW525]

I don't know about charges in Texas, since I'm not familiar with Texas law. If the owner of your building finds out, however, don't be surprised if you find yourself served with an eviction notice, especially if word of what happened spreads to other tenants. Not many people want to live in the same building as somebody who they fear will accidently shoot them or thier family with a stray bullet.

[magnumenthused]

Understandable. I fully intend to fill in the inside end of the hole with putty and paint over it. The outside end, not quite sure. It's a nicely funneled hole probably about two to three times the diameter of the bullet. I could purchase a can of spray paint, lean out the window and spray over it to mask it some, after stuffing the entire hole for insulation purposes. However I do live in the loud hell-raising building, nobody seemed to go "what the ****?!?!", and being a student complex, most people don't complain about others that much. I pray that I'll be spared such an embarrassment, and I still can't fathom how I let myself be so careless, but I'm just thankful that nobody got hurt.

[magnumenthused]

I might mention, this magnum barely kicks at all with these target loads. Seems to be a very weak load suitable for target use only, but any load is still potentially deadly...again thank God it didn't hurt anybody or seem to cause any significant damage beyond the hole in my wall.

[stephen426]

I still can't believe that your room mate didn't hear it. I'm glad no one got hurt. I would not report it if I were you. Its kind of like telling a police officer to give you a ticket because you were speeding. Consider that your free bee and be more careful.

The target loads in .38 special should not give too much penetration but the 6 inch barrel does up the velocity some. I really suggest you not put the gun under your pillow anymore. You can stick it in you night stand or in a holster next to the bed. Better yet, get one of those safes with a digital combo in the shape of a palm print. That way you won't need to worry about your gun getting stolen when you are not home.

I also suggest you find out about the gun laws. You mentioned that you live in a student complex. It is illegal to have firearms on schools. Good luck and be safe! Don't train with loaded weapons. Don't handled firearms in an impaired (or sleepy) state. You need to have your brain in gear or else you will have accidents like what happened to you. Next time you may not be so lucky.

[XavierBreath]

I'm glad you and everyone else is OK.
I'd patch up the holes and keep quiet.
Consider yourself extremely fortunate and learn from the incident.
I don't think anyone needs to tell you to empty out the chambers and check them twice before doing and drills or draws again.

[chris in va]

Alright, I was going to say something else, but...

You need some 'official' training with firearms, safe record or not. There are just some things you DON'T do with loaded weapons. You'd be suprised what is learned in safety classes.

Frankly I couldn't care less you punched a hole in your apartment. I'm more concerned with who/what you almost hit in the process of jacking around with a loaded gun.

Better get that hole patched pretty damn quick...

[magnumenthused]

Thank you all for the input.

stephen: the apartment complex is not owned by schools, yet it is a complex geared towards students in its marketing, but free for anyone to move into.

my roommate is an extremely sound sleeper, and there's a slight chance he also may have had his excellent ambience-killing headphones on playing a game. who knows. i will not mention it to him at all.

my plan:
-firearm next to bed, not under pillow
-any drills done while thoroughly awake and with snap-caps or empty cartridges with used primers (i wont dry fire my gun)
-not telling anyone except close friends a good long while down the road
-patching up the hole on both ends ASAP...probably around the times when nobody is moving at night...for example the approximate time i shot the damn hole in the first place....*hits self in head*
-look for self defense training, etc as so not to rely solely on homemade drills and be properly prepared for firearm use in defending my home.

im a pretty good shot i just dont get to go shooting much...in fact rarely. ahh the joys of being a 21 year old trying to find financial stability heh.

Thanks again.

[OBIWAN]

Why in the heck did you cock it again :confused:

Never mind...

Evidently you broke all the rules of safe gunhandling...all at the same time.

Nowhere to go but up :D

[Capt. Charlie]

I always keep my bedside gun in such a manner that I have to be (mostly) awake to make contact with it. You don't want to be dreaming or out of it, and make contact with it without the gears upstairs turning fully and smoothly. I strongly suggest the same for anyone with a gun near where they sleep.

[magnumenthused]

OBIWAN, yeah I broke all the rules of safe gunhandling and you're right, nowhere to go but up. But what are you talking about cocking it again? After I fired the shot I unloaded the weapon and put it away for the night.

[magnumenthused]

Capt Charlie--I agree, that is wise. My nightstand is at the foot of my bed, and I was thinking laying it on the floor (I have no pets except a securely caged rat, and no children, and a deadbolt on my room door per apartment design) next to my bed, with the train of thought that there would be no time to crawl to the end of the bed to grab it when needed. Which do you suggest?

[stephen426]

I think Obiwan was asking why you cocked it in the first place. A single action trigger pull is very light (as I'm sure you are now WELL AWARE) and can go off accidentally with just very little pressure (nother fact I'm sure you are also very well aware of). A revolver should be fired in double action mode for self defense situations. If you cannot fire in DA accurately, you can get a trigger job and practice until you can fire accurately. Single action should be saved for the range or greater distances when hunting.

A few other things (not to beat you up about it):
-Treat every gun as if it was loaded.
-Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
-Know your target and what lies beyond it.

These three safety rules could prevent just about all accidental discharges.

[Capt. Charlie]

The floor's not a bad idea if you can slide it just a little ways under the bed. Mine is kept in a nightstand drawer, and in a retention holster. I've stayed in motels where the nightstand wasn't an option (barely big enough to hold the clock & phone), & I kept my Walther under my pillow in an Uncle Mike's with the strap secured over the hammer. It has to be a compromise between speed and being cognizant enough to gain access to it.

[magnumenthused]

fair enough, stephen. I can fire double action pretty accurately no problem. The gun fits my hand perfectly. Those three safety rules I know by heart.

All summed up, i completely ignored all knowledge and common sense and decided to be a dumbass...

Thanks for the input, cap'n!

[Capt. Charlie]

An AD, at the very least, is really embarrassing. I respect magnumenthused for being man enough to admit it, but I have seen posts like this before, and I've wondered: How many here, really, have had an AD and are too embarrassed to admit it? (I really don't expect an answer ;) :D )

[ATW525]

Those three safety rules I know by heart.

Uh... isn't there four basic rules to gun safety?

[delta58]

Sounds like you have gotten some pretty good advice from these folks, I'm glad you lived to put it to good use. My guess is if you didn't find anyone right outside the building you are probably off the hook with wadcutters, glazer safety slugs or hydroshocks are good ammo indoors.

[jrklaus]

I have used a gun-rug from Bagmaster to secure my "duty" firearm at night, and used a padlock in the zipper tang when my children were young enough that they hadn't yet learned Eddie Eagle's message. Reaction times would be slower, of course, but the act of unzipping the bag would give wake-up time if that is a concern.

Glad no one was hurt!

[Colonel Klink]

I guess there hasn't been an instructor giving input. I am an instructor and yes you did do a few things wrong. First, and for the rest of your life, never put your finger on the trigger until, and only until, your sights are on the target. That rule alone would have saved you. Next isn't a rule but it is a necessity in self defense - never, never, never cock a gun for self protection. If you are forced to shoot someone you will end up in court. Maybe not for the shooting itself but for sure by the family of the BG you shot.

In court it can be made to look like you wanted to kill the BG since you cocked the hammer. My main self defense gun, S&W 342PD, has an enclosed hammer. I couldn't cock the hammer if I wanted to. We have two other revolvers that have bobbed hammers. Very difficult to cock the hammer. My wife's defense gun has a hammer but she practices only double action. In an emergency I would expect her to act as she trains.

Glad no one was hurt and you didn't end up in jail. I learned a lot of things the hard way - you don't forget those. From now on - shoot safely.

[Avizpls]

Kilnk,
With your views on never cocking a handgun for self-defense, what are your opinions on the designed method of carry with a 1911a1?

[carebear]

Since it is designed to ONLY be fired with the hammer cocked and is designed to be carried that way I'm going to assume he ain't agin' it.

The "don't cock it" advice (which I disagree with) is based on the fact that a DA revolver is specifically designed so you can fire the gun without cocking it and you thus apparently took the extra time and effort to make it even more hair-triggery and lethal than it needed to be. :rolleyes:

I personally believe that reasoning to not be proved out in reality (no cases for a civilian SD I'm aware of, certainly none in AK) but it does have its own logic.

[LAK]

this time when I cocked the hammer and placed my finger on the trigger, in my tired state I fired the weapon
In all your gun handling - for whatever purpose - memorize and stick to these four rules:

1. All firearms are loaded.

2. Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless your sights are on the target.

4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

[Garand Illusion]

The "no cocking" rule would pretty much disarm the guys with Blackhawks.

I'm not an "instructor," but I'm going to use whatever firearm I have in the best manner possible in the unlikely event I have to shoot someone.

One thing for sure, though ... I'm not going to give the cops any details as to how/why I shot and/or what I was feeling at the time until I've talked with my lawyer. I think that "He was attacking me and I defended myself with my firearm. Respectfully, sir, I will not give further details until I have had a chance to consult with an attorney" is the best.

But from the classes I took lethal force is lethal force ... it doesn't matter how you use it or what kind of ammo you have. All that matters is that you were in fear for life or limb.

[magnumenthused]

carebear--my revolver is a double action/single action firearm and fires quite well and accurately in my hand double action. since that is the case i see no reason to ignore the advice of not cocking it. I used to load my 20 ga. shotgun for self defense until I got this. Now being a pump shotgun, one must cock it regardless of course--the great thing about those is that the sound of cocking it alone tends to scare the living crap out of anyone otherwise intending harm or other undesireable actions...assuming they're not crazed/feeling the immortal effects of PCP, etc...

I can proudly say I've never had an accidental/careless discharge with my shotgun...GOSH that would be a mess..Not just a hole in the wall, but many holes in the wall, my desk, my monitor, my subwoofer, window..either way I'm never compromising on gun safety again.

[chris in va]

the great thing about those is that the sound of cocking it alone tends to scare the living crap out of anyone otherwise intending harm or other undesireable actions

Now see, this is where you need some training! If you take a decent HD class, they'll tell you NOT to rack the slide...for a couple reasons.

First, that means you have one less shell in the mag that could have been used for SD. Second, all that does is gives away your position in your house. You're not looking to go after the guy, but shore yourself up, grab a cell phone and defend yourself if he/she/it comes through that door. Florida has Castle Doctrine now where you can stand your ground, but most states don't have that. Here in VA you can't even shoot someone stealing your stuff in the house, unless they are specifically trying to hurt *you* in the process. All we can do is call the cops. :(

Honestly I think much of what you've learned needs to be thrown out and re-learned via professional teachers, especially when it comes to legal issues in your state. Just yesterday I talked with a lady that has her CHP and keeps something in her purse. She's having issues with her daughter's ex-boyfriend and stated, "If he ever comes on my property I'm gonna shoot him.".

Oh boy. He'd be in the hospital and she'd be in jail...and I told her that.

[Mr. James]

What chris in va said...

Your heart is in the right place ... now get some training so your head follows.

;)

[big daddy 9mm]

and I would also never practice drawing with it loaded. as much as I move in the night I would kill my self with a gun there. :o :o :o :o :o :eek:

[ADBF]

I'm with Stephen426. Get a gunsafe with a digital lock system on it. Keep it locked up when you're not at home, unlock it for when you're there. These safes aren't terribly expensive and your weapon will be more secure. Take safe handling classes and read all you can about shooting and gun handling. Safety is priority one when you own a handgun.

[OBIWAN]

My question was why did you cock it in the first place?

It is not a single action revolver :confused:

But it is not important

[shield20]

Chris,

So you recommend keeping a shotgun for home defense loaded (1 in the chamber?).

Hmmm....I never really thought about it, cause I rely on my handgun, but I unload that too before putting it in a gun rug for the night. (kids around, etc., and just feel an attack would not be as...imminent/immediate as "on the street")

[magnumenthused]

chris--If you have an actual family to defend however, Id rather learn to clear the house and draw attention to me, scare the crap out of the bad guy, then let them roam through and slay my family...

[buzz_knox]

chris--If you have an actual family to defend however, Id rather learn to clear the house and draw attention to me, scare the crap out of the bad guy, then let them roam through and slay my family...

Do a house clearing drill sometime and you'll learn it's not something you'll ever learn unless you've got a fireteam backing you up. You can muddle through, but it's dangerous. If you've got a family, you should have a plan in place to get everyone in your secure area, hold tight, and call 911.

[magnumenthused]

Well I don't have a family yet. Glad I've got time before I do heh. Right now it's me and my roommate. I have a gun, he has quite the ability to kick some major ass. My ability there is limited due to limited experience.

We attended (he still does but I lack money for it currently, hence limited experience) a top notch martial arts school called Power Kicks, studying Hap Ki Do and Tae Kwon Do. Charles Michael Nestor is the master there. Loooooong training record as a cop, having served under many many PD's, Military experience as combat control in the air force, and all while training in martial arts since age 14. When he came to HKD/TKD he trained (and still trains) under Samuel Yang (I can't remember the guy's Korean name right now). Mr. Yang trained under the founder of HKD. Hit www.powerkicks.net if you want more info so I don't make a book-length thread heheh. At any rate the training at that school is truly quality. You actually earn your rank, it's not given to you even if you do badly on tests. But it's also not about rank there, it's about skill. Anyway I'm going to stop rambling now hehe.

[Eghad]

If its a DA Revolver I never use it by cocking it I always use DA mode only.
IMO thats the way a DA Revolver should be shot.

The only to pistols I use Single Action are a Colt SA and a Ruger .44 Mag SA

[QuickTrig]

I think someone mentioned this, But I like to keep my Ruger in its holster, strapped to the bed frame. At the end where I lay down, So I can reach above my head and draw it if need be, I also usually keep the chamber empty and the mag full at night. Its pointing towards the ground and its out of sight (which is another plus). Just an idea for anyone who doesnt have a good spot to put their gun while sleeping.

P.S. I think theres actually a company that makes bed frame holsters, Not sure what the name is, But strapping a retention holster to your frame is basically the same thing.

[Captain38]

magnumenthused,

This old adage seems to apply: "Any fool can have an accidental discharge with a semi-automatic but it takes a DARNED fool to have one with a revolver"! I hope you learned that lesson well.

[AAshooter]

What surprised me most in the post was this:

"Ammunition: .357 case, low-power .38 target load. Semi-wadcutter all-lead bullet (the sort that looks like the conical tip is a dunce cap with the top half cut off) with a proper .7cc measurement of Hercules Red Dot powder, Winchester primer."

Is this what you are using for your self defense round?

[SCCop]

I'm with the Capt on ensuring that you're in an "awake" state of mind when you pick the weapon up. A retention holster would do the trick. Often those with semi-autos will leave the chamber empty or the magazine partially ejected if they have a magazine disconnect safety. I just plain don't like having it under the pillow. It is more natural instinct to reach out for a weapon rather than behind your own head. Just make sure that you do take some training and mentally prepare yourself for "undoing" whatever obstacles you use to ensure your alertness.

[magnumenthused]

It was my self defense round, yes. I have semi-jacketed HP's now given to me by my dad the other day in the speedloader he had for this revolver. Soon as I can I'll replace them with new ammo such as hydrashoks or something..

[buzz_knox]

This old adage seems to apply: "Any fool can have an accidental discharge with a semi-automatic but it takes a DARNED fool to have one with a revolver"! I hope you learned that lesson well.

Yet they happen frequently. People forget that a 12 lb trigger pull really isn't that much to an adult hand. All it takes is for the hand to clench and the trigger will fire unless the trigger finger isn't on it.

And a lot of NDs (not ADs) happen when dry firing takes place with a loaded weapon.

[OBIWAN]

And at the point where you cock a DA handgun...be it revolver or auto

You have shaved the margin to almost nothing

[lee n. field]

There goes your damage deposit. :)

[Colonel Klink]

Carebear took my answer and probably better than I would have said it.

[pittbug]

Is your roommate still sound asleep?

[carebear]

Thank you Col.

Agree or disagree, I hate to see people be misunderstood/misrepresented.

Kinda obscures the topic you're disagreeing about. :)

[progunner1957]

I'd patch up the holes and keep quiet.

I agree. If anyone had been hit by the stray bullet, there would've been police & an ambulance at the scene that night; if there had been a fatality, you woul have heard about it by now.

I would patch the holes inside & out - making ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you don't get caught at it when doing the outside hole and thus have to explain why you are doing that - and "let sleeping dogs lie."

Also, I think you should get some competent, professional firearms instruction, and get some 125g. magnum HPs (CorBon, Hornady XTP, Golden Sabre, Federal EFMJ, HydraShok, etc.) to use for defensive purposes.

And thank your lucky stars no one was hurt or killed; you sure as h*ll don't want to have to answer for that!! :D

[CajunBass]

I had a S/D (Stupid Discharge) once year ago with a Colt 1911. Not the guns fault at all, it was mine. No one hurt, and nothing but a bookcase damaged, but like this incident, the other people in the house heard nothing. Neither did I really, bur I attributed that to shock/surprise when the gun went off.

My wife's uncle who had stopped by the house was in the next room in visual contact with me, and he said he thought I had "popped" a primer reloading. My wife and my mother in law, neither one heard it.

Needless to say, I'm VERY careful now.

[foghornl]

Consider that as your "5-gallon bucket of ice water dumped on the blankets" wake-up call. Minor property damage, no human injury. (OK, Pride & Ego took some hits, but better them than flesh).

Not something I admit very often, but I USED TO sleep with my .44Mag Super Blackhwak under my pillow...I lived in a rough apartment complex..Police were there 5 or 6 nights a week.

One morning, I was making up the bed, and I moved the pillow...THE REVOLVER WAS COCKED :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Stiletto]

Damn, foghorn...

Is there any good reason for stowing a gun under your pillow, or is that strictly for the movies? :confused:

[John Ringo]

Be careful.

Some guys I encountered when I was going to school back in Ohio made a shooting range in their basement. They shot the entire wall full of holes with .22 ammo. Don't ask me why, but they did. The landlord wasn't happy with them. Their parents probably ended-up rebuilding a wall.

The landlord wasn't happy. I have a big old .44 Magnum revolver. Dirty Harry:-) Always unload those bad boys before messing around with them. I am sure you learned your lesson.

[Nnobby45]

this time when I cocked the hammer and placed my finger on the trigger, in my tired state I fired the weapon.



You know, on a site that should be full of knowledgeable firearms people it's absolutely incredible that only a couple of people questioned cocking a DA revolver in the first place, and not before a dozen or so posts that ignored such irresponsible safety violations as cocking with finger on trigger.

Except for very rare special circumstances: YOU DO NOT EVER COCK A DA REVOLVER IN A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION!!!

[KP345PR]

Practicing real world scenarios like you did is an absolutely vital part of a practical home defense. Repeating motions and situations will cause your body to react in habit if you are ever put in the scenario. I practice drills throughout my house, as does my wife.

I would highly recommend purchasing some snap caps, though. In all of our weapons, we have magazines that are spraypainted bright green and are double checked to be loaded only with snap caps before starting drills. All magazines with live ammo are unloaded, and placed in a safe until the drills are over, at which point they are reloaded and placed back into the gun.

Just some tips on how to stay safe. Lucky everything went okay!

EDIT: By the way, a holstering suggestion as opposed to under your pillow:
I simply drilled a holster into my headboard, on the side, at an angle. I sleep on my side or stomach, where my weak hand is never more than a few inches away from the gun. This just makes me feel a bit safer than accidentally knocking the gun off the bed or sleep movements setting the gun off.

[chris in va]

That's a really good idea about the holster. I may do that.