In response to Poll, .25 Auto. [Archive]

butch50

July 12, 2005, 07:45 PM

I have a DA .25 auto that just drops into my pocket without any problem. Small, light and carries 8+1. Everyone dumps on the round, but they only dump on it because it is near the bottom of the power list relatively speaking. Relatively speaking it is a weak round. Relatively speaking.

Drop the relativity part and it is not at all a weak Self Defense device. At close range, which is the only thing I would use this round for, I can put 9 rounds into the COM in well under 3 seconds. It would turn your organs into absolute hamburger meat.

But everyone gets hung up on the fact that there are larger calibers - and yes there are, but no one seems to remember that either the .22 or the .25 while at the bottom power-wise, will literally tear you to pieces if you get in front of them. It is not my primary carry, it is my BUG, and for that it is great. The .25 rounds are expensive, but this isn't a target gun or a plinker. At close range, where this gun belongs being used, it doesn't even take very much practice at all to be accurate. So the cost of the rounds is not a real factor for this gun for this use.

buffalo_bore

July 12, 2005, 08:06 PM

I've been wanting one of those little Beretta Bobcats for awhile now. Not for any good reason, except that they look like a hell of a lot of fun.
What's the .25ACP recoil like?? Never shot one, but I would guess similar to a .22WMR.

ducktapehero

July 12, 2005, 08:36 PM

I have a Beretta 418 which is as reliable as the sun. I can't hit anything with it but it's just fun to shoot. My wife, OTOH, is deadly with it.

pocketgun

July 12, 2005, 09:33 PM

I prefer the .25ACP over the .22LR for three reasons:

-As mentioned above, centerfire primers are much more reliable than rimfire primers

-The brass, semi-rimmed .25ACP cartridge feeds much more reliably that the rimmed/heeled bullet .22LR in an auto pistol magazine

-A .25 inch hole is a bit better than a .22 inch hole. Not much, but some.

I have never tested the theory, but I suspect the ballistics of a .25 out of a two inch barreled pocket pistol are very close to or even better than a .22LR in similar conditions. The "muzzle energy" figures for .22 are almost always given as tested out of a 16" rifle barrel. Hard to compare figures from dissimilar conditions.

Some years ago, the FBI came to the conclusion that most people were apt to go down immediately if they knew they had been shot - with anything. Conversely, a fairly small percentage of people tend not to go down (unless hit in the brain or brainstem) with any handgun round.

So really, according to the FBI's researcher, just someone knowing they have been shot may well end the fight. Would I rather carry a .357SIG or a .45ACP to a gunfight? Yes, but the little .25s are so small and easy to carry, I can take them practically anywhere, and will have it when a problem arises, while the .357 sits at home in the safe. My life isn't overtly dangerous, and the chances of using a pistol in self defense are admittedly very remote. I therefore choose to tailor my carry pistols to my lifestyle, rather than the other way around. For example, if it is hot out, I am not going to wear jeans and a heavy shirt to conceal a weapon; I will just wear my usual shorts/shirt and carry a very small handgun.

The 6.35 Browning/.25 ACP cartridge was invented very early in the 1900's, and was a very popular option for self defense by many people until interest faded a bit in the late 1960s due to U.S. legislation (the GCA of 1968). This U.S. law lowered the interest in pocket pistols (many in .25) worldwide, due to the loss of the lucrative U.S. market to European manufacturers. Fewer .25s available equaled a loss of interest by buyers over time. If the little cartridge didn't work at all, few people would ever have bought them, and they would never have taken off to begin with. For 60+ years it was considered a solid option, so even now it is a heck of a lot better than strong language. If nothing else, it will help the police identify your murder's corpse!

michael t

July 12, 2005, 10:44 PM

I have owned a Bauer 25 since early 80's It has gone many places with me . I carry chamber empty and wear like a necklace using kite string. I saw one years ago in Combat Handguns that had been made even thinner and concealed in shirt pocket.Sometimes even a PPK is a little to big. I will always have a 25auto in my collection

Springer45

July 12, 2005, 11:30 PM

HK - you found my cigarette lighter! PM me and I'll come pick it up. :D

Mike Irwin

July 12, 2005, 11:35 PM

pocketgun

July 13, 2005, 06:25 AM

"Center-fire ammo is more reliable than rimfire ammo (always a very big plus when it comes to defence)."

I've addressed this many times in the past.

I've had FAR more failures to fire with factory centerfire ammunition from major manufacturers than I have ever had with rimfire ammo, and I've shot a LOT more rimfire ammo over the past 30 years.

Failures to fire can be caused by a number of things. Really, the only FTFi that is germane to this topic is a faulty primer. I too have shot a good deal of ammo of both types. I have never, ever had a faulty primer in a centerfire pistol, rifle or shotgun cartridge. I have had many with rimfire ammo. Further, I have had batches of rimfire ammo with more than one primer that wouldn't ignite. While rimfire priming technique is better than it once was, it is still not as reliable as centerfire priming in my experience.

"The brass, semi-rimmed .25ACP cartridge feeds much more reliably that the rimmed/heeled bullet .22LR in an auto pistol magazine."

I've NEVER had feeding problems in any of my .22 semi-autos that can be attributed to the rimmed cartridge. I've NEVER had a case of rimlock in a .22 semi-auto of any kind, from an Iver Johnson PT-22 to a Browning Buckmark to a Taurus TP-22.

At this point, I've got over 2,000 Winchester Wildcats through my Taurus TP-22 with 0 failures to feed, 0 failures to fire, and 0 failures to extract.

The Browning Buckmark is a target pistol and not even remotely suitable for defense. The Iver Johnson TP-22 and Taurus PT-22 are copies of other pocket pistol designs. Great to hear your Taurus worked, because the three I owned never did. The first one jammed with a round sticking straight up with practically every magazine. It got a little better after breaking in a bit but still had frequent problems with the .22 ammo sticking straight up. It eventually walked its barrel pin after about 350 rounds, and was returned to the factory under warranty. Instead of fixing it, Taurus sent me a new one, that was a little better about feeding - maybe one failure to feed every 20 rounds or so, with the bullet caught against the opening of the barrel. After the trigger pin walked out, it too went back to the factory maybe 250 rounds in. They again just replaced it. The last one was the worst of the lot. The absolutely worst POS I have ever owned. FTF straight up out of the slide, like the first PT-22. This one fell apart before 200 rounds, but feed reliablilty wasn't getting better. It probably averaged one FTF per magazine. When the fourth one came, I sold it back to the dealer without ever taking it out of the box.

I have a Phoenix HP-22 that also jams practically every magazine (11 rounds). I never shoot it anymore as it has other problems as well. It simply comes up with new ways to FTF.

In this day and age I simply do not buy the conventional wisdom (read ancient) reasons for why the .25 ACP is "better" than a similar gun in .22 LR, especially given the .25s Times 10 factor for price.

Well Mike, just because you have had good feed reliablity and no primer problems with rimfire ammo doesn't mean they don't exist. Both your experiences and mine are nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

As far as I know, no firearms manufacturer in the world makes any self defense auto pistol in a non-.22 caliber rimfire chambering. Ever wonder why no 9mm rimfire or .40 rimfire ammo has been invented in the last 100+ years? Defensive cartridges in larger diameters used to exist. They were discontinued due to reliablility issues with the primers. No ammo company or firearms manufacturer has seen fit to revive the concept in spite of the advances made. So your assertion that the idea is antiquated is innaccurate.

As for the feed reliability issues I mentioned, rimlock is only one of them. The .22LR cartridge uses a heeled bullet, which means the rim of the cartridge is needed to stop the round from simply being pushed through the chamber into the barrel. This rim must have a corresponding cut-out in the feed ramp to allow it to seat completely in the chamber. This cut-out area of the ramp is frequently a source of feeding problems. .25ACP does not rely on its rim to retain it, so it avoids this problem.

The protruding rim of the .22LR also makes for difficult angles in the magazine. This is the reason that your PT-22 only holds 8 rounds, while the otherwise identical PT-25 holds 9 rounds, in spite of the larger diameter .25ACP bullet.

As for the expense, I don't see a huge disadvantage to the .25. My typical shooting habits with a tiny pocket pistol are a lot different than what I do with a combat pistol or target gun/plinker. I shoot about half a box of ammo twice a month through my .25, and wouldn't shoot more than that if the ammo were less expensive. I think my practice habits are fairly typical of most pocket pistol shooters. My PSP-25 favors PMC 50gr JHP. I just looked up the price at www.cheaperthandirt.com - $9.65 per 50 rd box. Your favorite ammo for the PT-22 (Winchester Wildcat) was $1.39 per 50 rd box at the same place. So basically, the $8.26 difference per month isn't exactly going to break me; especially in light of the benefits outlined above.

I suggest you pick up a PT-25 and use your PT-22 for practice. In about two years, the money you save on ammo should make up the extra $200 or so they probably are selling for.

Logs

July 13, 2005, 06:45 AM

I have a Beretta 21 in .25 and love it. VERY reliable, found ammo for $6.95 a box for plinking, nice trigger pull and very easy to carry / compact. On the other hand I had a Taurus mini .22 and it had a terrible trigger and jammed every other mag, sent it back to Taurus, still jammed. :( .

Yes, ammo for the .25 is more $$$ than a .22, but I also have a Buckmark, 22/45, and Mark III slabside for plinking. So cost of ammo is not a big deal, I don't shoot my .25 at the range weekly.

I have read that the .25 doesn't have stopping power or great range and I should carry something bigger...... But I can't find a inside the waist band holster or pocket holster for my 8 3/8 inch barrel 454 Raging Bulll????

The Beretta .25 will still be my sidearm of choice for concealed carry.

MartinR

July 13, 2005, 07:24 AM

I don't have a .25acp anymore, but I certainly agree with the reliability argument over a rimfire. (My off-duty carry weapon is typically a NAA "Guardian" in .32acp).

I would only consider a revolver for a rimfire self defence weapon. (If no bang, cycle to next chamber). I like my NAA mini-revolver in .22mag for deep concealment.

butch50

July 13, 2005, 07:54 AM

Ammunition Warning

I picked up a box of .25 ammo at a gun show, Aguila brand, and had four or five complete failures to fire (even after multiple strikes) within the first half of the box. I threw away the other half of the box.

I have not had any problems with any other brands of ammo. If you buy Aguila, take it to the range and don't trust it with your life!

Te Anau

July 13, 2005, 08:29 AM

If .25acp was as cheap as .22lr I still wouldnt use it.Years ago a friend and I were shooting (at an angle) at an old Chevy van..25acp just bounced off the outer wall while .22lr penetrated the outer wall and made a nice dent in the far side.Thats all I needed to see..25acp= :barf:

StrikeEagle

July 13, 2005, 09:31 AM

Off the top of my head, thre are two good reasons:

Center-fire ammo is more reliable than rimfire ammo (always a very big plus when it comes to defence).

The neat little "vest pocket" handguns chambered for it. The Baby Browning is probably the best argument for the .25 (and don't forget, the ever popular Seecamp was originally a .25).

I agree with this on all points. John Browning himself had problems getting .22 RF to feed from tiny pistols... that's why he designed the .25 ACP in the first place (so the story goes...).

In my 35 years of shooting I've had ONE round of factory centerfire ammo with a bad primer. It was a Winchester .32 ACP. The event was so remarkable that I saved that round for years. I don't recall a bad primer even out of my reloads, actually... But I've had countless dud .22 RF rounds.

And I too LOVE the Baby Browning. Cute as a button and superbly fit and finished. A jewel. :)

And just for the record I reload .25 ACP. :p Everything is so tiny it's like... an appealing miniature in all repects. I weigh every charge, and use a special funnel to put that grain of powder in the case. It's just plain fun to work with and I'm betting that I smile a LOT when I do it. :)

No... I certainly don't carry the .25 ACP... I carry a Colt Combat Commander in .45.

But I enjoy and appreciate the .25. :)

StrikeEagle

JB in SC

July 13, 2005, 09:32 AM

I have handloaded for the .25 ACP, mostly Hornady and some lathe turned solid brass bullets. The brass bullets penetrate far better than any .22 LR solid (which seems to be the major issue). It can be loaded a bit hotter than factory, and easily exceeds .22 LR ballistics in short barrels.

Do you folks with a Baby Browning (or clone) carry with a round chambered? That is the single issue with me concerning the .25 in really small pistols. I don't feel comfortable with pocket carry with a round chambered in that platform.

A Triple Surete' or Colt Vest Pocket might make a better carry gun in the caliber.

mtnbkr

July 13, 2005, 09:59 AM

I wouldn't carry it for defense, but I'd love to have a cherry Colt Vest Pocket pistol. I'd add some ivory grips and pimp that bad boy. :D

With guns like the P32, P3AT, Guardian (32, 380, and 32NAA), and even the Rohrbaugh, I don't see why anyone would choose 25acp for a newly purchased CCW piece.

Chris

tulsamal

July 13, 2005, 11:22 AM

I've had FAR more failures to fire with factory centerfire ammunition from major manufacturers than I have ever had with rimfire ammo, and I've shot a LOT more rimfire ammo over the past 30 years.

I don't understand this. Why is your personal experience so much different from mine? I shoot a variety of different guns so it isn't like just one of the .22's has problems. It might be one in five hundred or one in one thousand but every now and then a .22 just doesn't go bang for me. I sometimes hit the same one again and that usually fires it. But not always.

I had some centerfire ammo fail to fire when I was just starting to reload and I got my greasy fingers in the wrong place. But I don't think that has happened in twenty years. And I can't recall ANY factory loaded centerfire ammo that failed to fire unless it was a very obvious light strike and something turned out to be wrong with the gun. The rimfires that don't fire often have a good solid dent but still don't go off.

Gregg

silver-bullet

July 13, 2005, 11:25 AM

I would like to associate myself with the comments made by Pocketgun. Sometimes the little .25 is the only thing you can realistically conceal, and it can be a reliable man-stopper (or at least man-scarer) if you do your part. The ammo is more expensive, yes, but these are not target-grade weapons which will be fired tens of thousands of times. They are BUG's which will be fired enough to determine reliability, then carried often, shot little. I own the Taurus PT-25, and with ball ammo (I like the American Eagle), I've only experienced one failure in about 300 rounds, and that was in the first 20 rounds right-out-of-the-box. I am not saying the .25 is preferrable to any other caliber, I'm simply saying that it DOES have its place, and it DOES fulfill a role that few other guns can. By the way, recoil is non-existent, muzzle-flash is slight, and even with DAO gun like the Taurus, I can dump all nine rounds in COM very quickly, without shifting my grip AT ALL.

Handy

July 13, 2005, 11:26 AM

Mike,

I've also found that .22 can be very reliable. However, I've also found that no one makes .22LR that are as small as the .25s. I presume that it is much easier to get a small auto to feed .25s than .22s. I also note that guns like the Beretta 21 hold an extra round in the mag if chambered in .25.

I'd love a .22LR auto the size of a Baby but with modern internal safeties. But they don't exist. The smallest I've found is an American Arms CX-22, which is like your Iver Johnson. The Beretta 21 is comparably huge.

I would love to be proved wrong, but it appears that .25 is more reliable once the gun becomes small enough.

Mike Irwin

July 13, 2005, 03:15 PM

"I too have shot a good deal of ammo of both types. I have never, ever had a faulty primer in a centerfire pistol, rifle or shotgun cartridge. I have had many with rimfire ammo."

Since 1978 I've purchased and fired roughly 90,000 rounds of .22 LR. I've had, at MOST, 3 primer related failures.

In factory centerfire ammo, in about 10,000 rounds I've purchased in the same time frame, I've had at least 11 primer related failures to fire, mostly with Remington Ammo.

There's nothing more aggravating than paying premium prices for premium ammo and finding FOUR duds in a single box.

Mike Irwin

July 13, 2005, 03:18 PM

"I've also found that no one makes .22LR that are as small as the .25s."

Not sure what you mean by that, Handy.

"I agree with this on all points. John Browning himself had problems getting .22 RF to feed from tiny pistols... that's why he designed the .25 ACP in the first place (so the story goes...)."

That was 100 years ago, when manufacturing tolerances were HUGELY different from what they are today.

Mike Irwin

July 13, 2005, 03:30 PM

"The first one jammed with a round sticking straight up with practically every magazine. It got a little better after breaking in a bit but still had frequent problems with the .22 ammo sticking straight up. It eventually walked its barrel pin after about 350 rounds, and was returned to the factory under warranty. Instead of fixing it, Taurus sent me a new one, that was a little better about feeding - maybe one failure to feed every 20 rounds or so, with the bullet caught against the opening of the barrel."

So, bad firearm/magazine manufacturing is actually a failure of the round?

"Ever wonder why no 9mm rimfire or .40 rimfire ammo has been invented in the last 100+ years?"

I can tell you exactly why. It has to do with cartridge power, not any inherent reliability factor.

As smokeless powders became more powerful and developed higher chamber pressures, the thin case heads required by rimfire ammunition simply weren't thick enough to contain the pressure.

This is one of the main reasons why other forms of centerfire priming, such as the Benet priming system developed at Frankford Arsenal in the 1870s, also became obsolete.

"I suggest you pick up a PT-25 and use your PT-22 for practice. In about two years, the money you save on ammo should make up the extra $200 or so they probably are selling for."

For what conceivable purpose? I have three 100% reliable .22 semi-autos, apparently something which just can't exist, according to some.

What will the .25 do that the .22 won't do? (answer, nothing).

Sum1_Special

July 13, 2005, 03:38 PM

I have a .25 caliber raven of which I like very much. I see no reason to buy a baby browning when the raven has the same striker fired design and is reliable enough... It is, without a doubt, the best handgun you could get for $50, and is known as the king of the SNS.

But anyway, the .25acp vs .22lr arguement has been around for a long time. In a pocket pistol the ballistics are very similar. But if it were me i'd go with .22lr, .25 is just too damn expensive and it really isn't worth the money, why pay $5-10 a box when you can get the same power with 8$ for 500? Now if they were the same price... it would be .25 for me in a heartbeat, this round just has so many benefits over .22lr. :D

On the other hand, .25 acp doesn't have as many different loads as .22lr. with .22 you get cci stingers, velocitors, quick shot, 60 grain SSS subsonic, yellow jackets, ect... Although there are a few manufacturers that make self defence loads for .25(magsafes and glasers)...

pt92

July 13, 2005, 04:55 PM

My wife carries a PT-25 and is dead-on accurate with it--I have no doubt she could quickly put multiple rounds into a perp very quickly.

-Cheers

CraZkid

July 13, 2005, 05:42 PM

The owner of the local gunstore told me a story about his uncle who got shot 8 times at point blank range in the back with a .25. He thought he had been punched a bunch of times, turned around and kicked the crap out of the gunman. Only when he got home and saw the holes in his riding jacket and sweatshirt did it dawn on him that he had been shot. His wife then saw 2 of the slugs sticking to his back and a few nasty bruises starting to form.

A .25 may scare some assailants away, but others(psychotic, drunk, high or whatever) will not be detered especialy if they are wearing heavy clothing.

Masad Ayoob says that he does not knock .25s becasue that is all some people can afford and everyone deserves the right to protect themselves. Personaly I can afford more than a Raven .25 so I do. Plus how can you put a price tag on survival?

Sum1_Special

July 13, 2005, 06:27 PM

I honesty think the dealer was lying to you. A .25 acp round can penetrate a 2x4 along with a mans skull. Even if his 'uncle' did not feel like he was being shot(yeah, right) he certainly would have heard the gun go off 8 times. 25's ain't exactly quiet. Whats more is i have never seen a .25 with the capacity of more than 6 rounds in the magazine. :rolleyes:

butch50

July 13, 2005, 07:00 PM

Mine will hold 8 in the magazine. It is an Iver Johnons PT-25, Erma Werke designed. I shot it into a dry phone book and it penetrated about 3 inches. That is solid packed paper.

Handy

July 13, 2005, 08:05 PM

Mike:"I've also found that no one makes .22LR that are as small as the .25s."

Not sure what you mean by that, Handy.I meant that no one makes an auto pistol, chambered for .22LR, this is as small as some of the .25ACP auto pistols. For some reason, .22LR seems to require a bigger slide and longer grip.

Additionally, more .25 round will fit in a given mag well than .22 rounds, as evidenced by the capacities of several guns chambered for both.

Sum1_Special

July 13, 2005, 09:43 PM

The jennings j-22 is relatively small, about 5 inches long. Its about the same size as the ravens and most of the other .25's.

pocketgun

July 13, 2005, 10:48 PM

Since 1978 I've purchased and fired roughly 90,000 rounds of .22 LR. I've had, at MOST, 3 primer related failures.

In factory centerfire ammo, in about 10,000 rounds I've purchased in the same time frame, I've had at least 11 primer related failures to fire, mostly with Remington Ammo.

There's nothing more aggravating than paying premium prices for premium ammo and finding FOUR duds in a single box.

Once again, your alleged personal experience is of little consequence. The fact is that firearms manufacturers believe it is more reliable, and I have every reason to believe them over you on this. BTW, your reliability conclusions seem quite different than everyone else's, including mine.

"I've also found that no one makes .22LR that are as small as the .25s."

Not sure what you mean by that, Handy.

"I agree with this on all points. John Browning himself had problems getting .22 RF to feed from tiny pistols... that's why he designed the .25 ACP in the first place (so the story goes...)."

That was 100 years ago, when manufacturing tolerances were HUGELY different from what they are today.

Sounds to me like Handy means that the smallest .25 pistols are smaller than the smallest .22 pistols.

Funny how with all the advances in manufacturing tolerances, the above still holds true. Walther was designing pocket pistols in the late 60's. Both were .25 designs that were eventually adapted to .22. Neither was very small. Your Iver Johnson TP-22 is a knock-off of the Walther TPH, BTW.

"The first one jammed with a round sticking straight up with practically every magazine. It got a little better after breaking in a bit but still had frequent problems with the .22 ammo sticking straight up. It eventually walked its barrel pin after about 350 rounds, and was returned to the factory under warranty. Instead of fixing it, Taurus sent me a new one, that was a little better about feeding - maybe one failure to feed every 20 rounds or so, with the bullet caught against the opening of the barrel."

So, bad firearm/magazine manufacturing is actually a failure of the round?

In your first post you wrote about how your own Taurus was 100% reliable with over 2,000 rounds, but here you condemn it as a poor design or poorly made? So which is it Mike, is the pistol a POS, or is the round problematic?

"Ever wonder why no 9mm rimfire or .40 rimfire ammo has been invented in the last 100+ years?"

I can tell you exactly why. It has to do with cartridge power, not any inherent reliability factor.

As smokeless powders became more powerful and developed higher chamber pressures, the thin case heads required by rimfire ammunition simply weren't thick enough to contain the pressure.

This is one of the main reasons why other forms of centerfire priming, such as the Benet priming system developed at Frankford Arsenal in the 1870s, also became obsolete.

Other priming systems have been kicked around, but centerfire has kept its place - it is hard to improve on the current level of reliability. Again, the fact is no other priming system has supplanted the centerfire in over a century, while rimfire has been relegated to ammo for use on aluminum cans, paper targets, and squirrels; or as an afterthought to an existing .25 design.

"I suggest you pick up a PT-25 and use your PT-22 for practice. In about two years, the money you save on ammo should make up the extra $200 or so they probably are selling for."

For what conceivable purpose? I have three 100% reliable .22 semi-autos, apparently something which just can't exist, according to some.

What will the .25 do that the .22 won't do? (answer, nothing).

I answered your questions here in my first post on this thread, go back and read it again.

Your whole argument for the .22LR over the .25ACP really boils down to your personal experience. If you filp a coin ten times, you might get heads 7 times, but it doesn't mean there are more heads than tails present. I will stick by the decisions and rationale of the pistol manufacturers who almost universally favor the .25 over the .22 for defense; not to mention the experiences of pretty much everyone else.

With guns like the P32, P3AT, Guardian (32, 380, and 32NAA), and even the Rohrbaugh, I don't see why anyone would choose 25acp for a newly purchased CCW piece.

Chris

I tend to agree with this statement, at least in most circumstances. The P3AT is so thin and light, it really is almost as easy to carry as even the smallest .25, under most conditions. Also, it is undoubtedly a safer carry than a Browning Baby, etc. with a round in the chamber. Which brings me to:

Do you folks with a Baby Browning (or clone) carry with a round chambered? That is the single issue with me concerning the .25 in really small pistols. I don't feel comfortable with pocket carry with a round chambered in that platform.

I would reply to this, but as the subject is likely to elicit a number of very polarized and energetic responses, it might be best to start a new thread.

45 Fu

July 13, 2005, 11:25 PM

Most of the people who carry a .25 here seem to favor the characteristics of the weapon over confidence in the round. The neatest gun in the world that's a .25 is still a .25.

Is the .25 more reliable than the .22? Who cares - for defense they are both out classed by other calibers that can be hid 95% as easily and are just as, if not more reliable in function of weapon and round.

Face it, folks. You can polish a [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] to a high sheen but, in the end, all you have is a glossy [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color].

Sum1_Special

July 13, 2005, 11:38 PM

That is exactly what I was expecting to read when I looked at your username, 45 Fu. :)

This not a gun that you could point at criminal and expect him to magically fall to the ground like a .357 magnum. A .25 pistol is small and cheap, something a .45 is not. Its all about shot placement. ;)

marano

July 14, 2005, 01:10 AM

have seen killed by a .25 automatic. In the summer when it is just to hot for anything else I drop a Beretta 950 in my shorts pocket and it is deadly accurate at seven yards. If you have to use it you empty the magazine at close range. I use it as a last resort but when I use it I feel ok with it. Any gun is better than no gun and I like the little Beretta.

butch50

July 14, 2005, 07:40 AM

45 FU: My point was, and is, that relatively speaking the .25acp is a poor round compared to any round larger than it. Relatively speaking that is true.

BUT if you stop comparing it to other rounds and simply look at what the .25 will do to the human body at close range; then you will see that IT IS a deadly and effective self defense tool. IF you understand it's limitations and don't try to turn it into something it is not. It is not a lot of things, I will grant you that.

IT IS a handy pocket gun for back up purposes to be used at close range and you must remember to go for slide lock, not double tap.

Russ5924

July 14, 2005, 07:54 AM

I have carryed a .25 for quite sometime but was always afraid if I had to use it I would just make someone mad.Now I carry a Kel-tec p11 in 9MM gun is just as small and lighter and the bullets are a lot cheaper :D

pt92

July 14, 2005, 08:44 AM

QUOTE: CraZkid

"A .25 may scare some assailants away, but others(psychotic, drunk, high or whatever) will not be detered especialy if they are wearing heavy clothing."

Do they wear heavy clothing on their head...? I will say what I have said a million times before, shot placement is everything (and besides, where I live no one wears heavy clothing).

.25 is not my preferred caliber but I bet I could bring someone down if necessary.

-Cheers

Handy

July 14, 2005, 10:21 AM

I carry a Kel-tec p11 in 9MM gun is just as small Russ, have you ever actually handled a typical .25 auto? Your statement tells me you haven't, as the P11 is about four times as large as a small .25.

butch50

July 14, 2005, 06:59 PM

"A .25 may scare some assailants away, but others(psychotic, drunk, high or whatever) will not be detered especialy if they are wearing heavy clothing."

If a person isn't scared of a .25 he probably wouldn't be scare of an Apache attach helicopter either. Psychos and drunk, high or whatever crazies who aren't scared of one kind of gun are likely not going to be scared of any kind of gun.

But a .25 will still turn his lungs/heart area to hamburger at close range with multiple strkes whether he is scared of it or not. Physics plain and simple.

The_Shootist

July 14, 2005, 07:13 PM

I agree with Mtnbkr - with the small .32's/.380's available I just see no reason for carrying the .25. Not when you have a gun the size of the Kel-Tec P-32 thats as reliable as .25 chambered pistols and packs a bigger (relatively speaking :D ) punch.

With my P-32 I couldn't even begin to think about a .25 unless it was a collectors item. Certainly not for CCW.

butch50

July 14, 2005, 07:23 PM

Shootist: Is the Keltec your primary or backup? I wouldn't dream of carrying a .32 as a primary myself, way way way too small. :)

CraZkid

July 14, 2005, 10:27 PM

Shot placement may be everything, but have you ever actualy tried to hit a moving target the size of a head? Twice or more? It is not easy (last months IPSC had a texas star, if you think that a moving head shot is easy, try that). Then try real world when someone is trying to kill you. Center of mass is easier to acheive. Besides, who needs mouseguns with the advent of sub-compact high-capacity weapons with a larger caliber, like the para warthog; 10+1 .45 ACP in a tiny package.

Sum1Special:
Please do not refer to a dealer that I highly respect, and has many years shooting as a liar. Have you met him? NO. A .25 may be loud, but bars are also loud. He also may have been intoxicated (the whole bar thing) so he did not feel the shots as he normaly would. Also, a leather riding jacket is quite thick as well as padded to protect you in a fall.

I find the story quite plausable(odder things have happened with bullets), due to the low power of the round, but mostly because of the dealers honest reputation in our comunity. If you do not belive it, say you do not belive it but do not call an honest man a liar.

pocketgun

July 15, 2005, 03:58 AM

Besides, who needs mouseguns with the advent of sub-compact high-capacity weapons with a larger caliber, like the para warthog; 10+1 .45 ACP in a tiny package.

Not everyone is comfortable trying to conceal such weapons. The Warthog may fit your needs perfectly, but I assure you it is not feasible for all CCW needs. The whole idea is to bring the best weapon that you can, but not all of us want the tradeoffs such a relatively large and heavy weapon necessarily require.

I find the story quite plausable (odder things have happened with bullets), due to the low power of the round, but mostly because of the dealers honest reputation in our comunity. If you do not belive it, say you do not belive it but do not call an honest man a liar.

The story he told you, assuming it is as you repeated it here, is IMO a load of steaming BS. Prove me wrong by posting some evidence: police report, hospital med records, even a newspaper clipping. If it really happened, there must be something he could give you. In reality, you come on this forum and post something that seems pretty darn incredible, admitting it is second, no third hand info, then take umbrage when someone calls the guy who told you this story a liar. If it really happened, post some proof; otherwise, please refrain from confusing people with tall tales passed off as facts.

CajunBass

July 15, 2005, 08:16 AM

I'd rather have my P-11, my Makarov, or even my Hi-Point, but if a 25 was all I had I wouldn't throw it away.

dickfunk

July 15, 2005, 08:33 AM

Calm down fella's...cool off.... :cool:

I personally was in the market for a mouse a little while back and was deciding on a .22 or .25. I weighed out the pro's and con's extensively. I tried to imagine every situation I would be in and also how much I would shoot the gun in the first place. I read ballistics reports on both and saw gelatin tests, the whole nine yards.
I decided on the .22. The .22 seemed to perform a scant better and the ammo is cheaper, and I want to shoot this gun. So far, I have have had no problem with it at all. I did get a FTFeed once when I tried a Pro-Mag in it, but, it was obviously the mag, not the gun. I shoot cheap Federal bulk pack stuff from WallyWorld and have a good time doing it. Best $170 I've spent on a gun in a long time (except for my newly aquired '44 Mosin Nagant M38, man what a great rifle!). The gun? A Taurus PT-22, the same gun as Mike Irwin's.

Handy

July 15, 2005, 09:28 AM

You mean the enormous Taurus PT-22? :p

I have an even smaller Beretta 21. It is so large you might as well carry a small .380.

Tamara

July 15, 2005, 09:39 AM

I agree with Mtnbkr - with the small .32's/.380's available I just see no reason for carrying the .25. Not when you have a gun the size of the Kel-Tec P-32 thats as reliable as .25 chambered pistols and packs a bigger (relatively speaking :D ) punch.

Except I don't shoot a P-32 or Guardian anywhere near as well as I do my single-action Jetfire, and with popgun calibers like this, accuracy is very important to me. To each their own. :)

dickfunk

July 15, 2005, 09:52 AM

You mean the enormous Taurus PT-22?
It is a little larger than some of it's comparibles, however, it fits in the 5th pocket of my jeans very nicely and it didn't break my wallet.

michael t

July 15, 2005, 12:49 PM

Carry what you feel comfortable with and has been proven to YOUR satisfaction as relieable. The is not a lot differance between the 2 . My self I carry the 25 but that me :)

pocketgun

July 15, 2005, 02:50 PM

Except I don't shoot a P-32 or Guardian anywhere near as well as I do my single-action Jetfire, and with popgun calibers like this, accuracy is very important to me. To each their own.

Of the Beretta and Taurus .25s/.22s, I like the Jetfire the best. It is a bit smaller than the others, too. I agree that accuracy is of prime importance, and not just with "popgun calibers."

Javelin Man

July 15, 2005, 07:55 PM

I own a Lorcin .25 that was my first conceal gun. Hey, for $50 it was pretty decent. As for accuracy, it is fantastic! I was bet once by a couple guys that I couldn't hit a tree at about 75 feet once out of three shots. I placed a 2x6 up so I had something to aim at and I put three shots in about a 4" circle. Maybe I got darn lucky, but it's been pretty accurate overall.

Darn thing really doesn't want to chamber a round too reliably, a lot may be due to the magazine, but I'm not concerned as I have many different options now and it's relegated to the safe.

As for why I got it, I wanted a more powerful gun than a .22, (I didn't know about ballistics at the time) and I wanted it to be small. This was about 15 years ago. I'm glad I got it and still have it. I carry my P-32 and my P11 as well as my S&W mod 36 all at different times.

If you look at all the various .25's, check out the artwork on these pieces. These guns have to be some of the prettiest guns out there!

voodoogreg

August 19, 2005, 11:06 AM

Hello fellas my first post. Hope I will learn a lot, and return the favor.

I saw this forum and a bone headed article from one of the hand gun magizines in a google search. decided after all these yr's to join a gun forum.

This thread intrigued me because as many have stated contempt for the 25acp auto, many here did not. Made me think,,, that mean's open minds
and experiance. It's over used but as is said many a time 25 in the pocket is better then a 45 (or DE.50 for you young ones :) c ) in your glove box.

I am not a "small gun" man all the time but my former job put me in that situation plenty. what I think I learned:

A good well functioning 25 (i like the beretta 950BS myself),
right ammo ( hornie XTP hollows)
And most important: skill, guts, knowledge! Some gangbanger with a DE and no talent or steel in his spine is not gonna win against a trained ,brave ex mil or LEO with brains and a 25ACP auto.

And I am totally respectful of all that disagree we need opinion in this world
have seen plenty of dead men with 22's 25's and 380's in em. So i can't see the reasoning why I (me) would see anyhing less the a nine Para as a "starting point" for a "real gun" from looking around this site I see many kindred in this train of thought. And I felt like posting as so.

Look forward to many more such disscusions in the future, and I hope my post was not too forward or OT. But after reading that young mans article in the on line magizine I finally felt i needed to say something. VDG

dickfunk

August 19, 2005, 11:18 AM

voodoogreg,
Welcome! What makes a forum are the members, and I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say, we're glad you're here. This is a great place to learn new and old information and to see what everyone's likes and dislikes are. Again, welcome! (Good 1st post, by the way.)

Te Anau

August 19, 2005, 12:11 PM

TFL is pretty cool.
.25acp still stinks! :p

jacobtowne

August 19, 2005, 12:25 PM

Wow. Am I the only one here with a Colt M1908? Mine was made in 1919, a couple of years after the introduction of the magazine disconnect safety, and still works just fine.
JT

JR47

August 19, 2005, 05:38 PM

jacobtowne, possibly. That's a fine piece of machinery. It's a bit larger than the later made weapons, but quite a piece of history.

I have a Beretta 950BS, also. While I've always been able to conceal a larger weapon, my wife feels quite safe with the .25 ACP. The little weapon is quite accurate in her hands.

I've always heard the .25 ACP weapons called "nose guns". You stick them in the bad guys nose, and empty the magazine. The resulting headache will enable you to beat him in a fist fight.

My real world experience with them comes from multiple responses as an EMT and EMT/P. I've seen several people shot in the head with the .25 ACP. ALL of them were unconscious after the impact. Most survived with a concussion, and a nasty, bleeding, scalp laceration. Several were shot in the nose, literally, or the eye, and were DRT (dead right there), another fatality was shot in the ear.

While the .25 ACP will kill, just like the .22 lr, it requires a much more precision hit to disable immediately.

I am a member over on the Rimfire Central Board. The amount of misfires in today's ammunition is a constant source of disappointment to these men and women, many of whom are dedicated, and knowledgable shooters. This is with both rifles and pistols.

In my shooting career, over fifty years now. I believe that I've suffered no more than ten to fifteen misfires with center-fire ammo. One was with a fresh Remington 130 gr. Bronzepoint .270. I've kept the round for years, just to show that it can happen. One other happened in the 1990's with Frankford Arsenal 1942 dated .45 ACP. It had been stored in the 1911 since 1945. I think that the oil used to lube the weapon over the years finally penetrated the primer pocket, and killed the primer compound.

I've carried a .25 ACP when it was impossible to carry another caliber, due to the size of available weapons. It's not ideal, but it will work. By the way I do have a rimfire that small. It's also a Beretta 950 BS, in .22 Short. No way do I want to use that to defend anything. :)

Timeframe

August 20, 2005, 04:16 AM

Not knowning alot about the 25 cartridge,what would be the difference between a standard 25 and the one put out by NAA?
The below is from their web sight.

The .25 NAA is based on our very popular .32 ACP Guardian. Both are the same size and weight. The .25 NAA has a smaller barrel diameter to accommodate the smaller bullet.

Like it's larger cousin, the .32 NAA Guardian, the .25 NAA Guardian out performs many larger caliber guns. The bullet travels faster (1200 f.p.s.) and hits harder (20% more energy on average) than larger, 32 ACP caliber bullets.

So, if you're looking for a small, pocket gun that delivers the power of a .32 ACP with less recoil - you've found it! Contact your local dealer today to get your own .25 NAA Guardian pistol.

Ac1d0v3r1d3

August 20, 2005, 06:13 AM

the .25NAA is a .32ACP case necked down to .25 cal and i believe that the .32NAA is a .380 necked down to .32

i've heard that the .25acp wont penetrate the skull, is this true?

claude783

August 20, 2005, 09:26 AM

In the safe is a Bauer (copy of the Baby Browning). Having let wify poo shoot it one time, as she is considerably younger than I, she was surprised it didn't penetrate a 50 gal. metal drum.

I don't know if that batch of ammo was old, underpowered, or what, but all it did was dent the drum.

I also own the NAA derringer in .22. I would suppose both little guns could serve a purpose, close range, through the eye socket, maybe low, very low, sting like a bee and not bite like a fly..

I have been planning on purchasing a new batch of ammo one day and seeing just what it can do. By the way, loaned the gun to my mother 25 years ago. Was in her words (a cute gun) so she always knew where it was!

mfree

September 27, 2005, 12:54 PM

http://posterboard.tv/firearm_misc/jetfire.jpg
http://posterboard.tv/20050627/1.jpeg

For size comparison. Jetfires are *tiny* lil' guns.

CobrayCommando

September 27, 2005, 03:38 PM

and with popgun calibers like this, accuracy is very important to me.

Interesting, could you tell me why a larger caliber would allow you to be any less accurate, in practical terms?

For all the people here with a .25, if you're willing I would be very intrigued by tests on leather jackets, perhaps with a tshirt and sweater and soaked phonebook underneath.

1/2 cocked

September 27, 2005, 05:06 PM

I am recently interested in the .25 for maximum concealabiltiy. I bought a Raven about 20 + lifetimes ago, still have it and it still shoots HARD BALL. I had to epoxy the grips on and the cocking indicator ( the back of the firing pin) broke off, but it still shoots. It is quite large for a .25

However I have a Mustang .380 and I was wondering how much smaller is the Mustang to the Bauer or the Colt vest pocket or any little .25 ? The Mustang is a true pocket pistol and holds 7, count um 7 rounds of sceaming hell in the form of .380 hollowpoint. Do I need a .25? Is the Mustang not the most perfect of pocket pistols? Ladies and Gentlemen I ask you : Has Colt not solved this debate ?

Of course thats just my opinion I could be wrong.

rgoudy1975

September 27, 2005, 06:17 PM

I love my Beretta Jetfire 950. It goes with me a lot in warm weather. It shoots well and it shoots every time. That's important. It's very small and concealable.

As for whether it's enough "stopping power", first, it's better than no gun at all. Second, I'm not going to be shooting through leather jackets and chain mail. I only carry it in the summer. For the leather I reserve my XD-40.

Jart

September 27, 2005, 06:18 PM

I don't know anything about the effectiveness of the .25 and will sit back while y'all thrash that out.

That said(c), I've always had a hankerin' for a .25ACP just because I was told that reloading .25 brass was a Zen-like exercise in non-stressful concentration. I find that to be plausible. :cool:

deputy tom

October 1, 2005, 06:49 PM

I used to carry a Beretta 950BS in a second handcuff case as a BUG.It was only for use at contact distances and only as a last resort.I still carry one nowdays from time to time but must admit I carry a Seecamp .32 more often and an S&W 642 most all the time.These tiny little pistols aren't for punching thru leather,armor,or heavy clothing of any sort but as I've said before and will say it again now,BGs can't wear body armor over their eyes.YMMV.tom. :cool:

Mister_Dinky

October 2, 2005, 01:42 PM

In response to Poll, .25 Auto.
Typically, it got low ratings. Local shyster here was dealt with using a .25. Two to the upper thorax and one to the beezer. He's holding his breath forever. Seems to work fine within design parameters.

smince

October 2, 2005, 02:04 PM

I used to carry a Beretta 950 as back-up to either my SW442 or my BHP. It is my favorite .25 (because if you are going to carry a .25 I like the idea of having 9 rounds in such a compact size).

By the way, it was accurate enough to make head-shots@25yds. :D

mtn. man

October 2, 2005, 03:11 PM

I would'nt carry a .25 unless it was that or nothing. But i wont ditch on them either my wife carrys a .32 because she shoots it well and feels comfortable with it.
I wish she could get comfortable with something larger but i'd rather she place her shots with the .32 as miss with a .45

I know of two cases where someone was killed quickly with on shot from a .25
Another when a neighbor acidently shot himself in the leg and bled out.
Another case where a .25 was fired through a wooden door and into the upper chest of a large man.
This fellow removed the bullet himself it was just under the skin.

Sum1_Special

October 15, 2005, 04:06 AM

I like this thread, best one i've seen in a long while... I like small caliber pistols, I think they have a certain charm to them... I don't know why, but my jennings j-22 seems to have a strong mysterious vibe radiating from it...

Anyway, just to keep the spirit alive...

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4439/jennings4rc.jpg

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/3271/jenningslight1il.jpg

Eh, it ain't a .25 but a .22lr is close enough. I love this pistol, after shooting with it and cleaning it up I must say, I would feel safe with it in my coat pocket in the middle of the night, I call it my 'midnight special'. It always shoots to point of aim and always feeds reliably, as far as small caliber guns go, it is a gem for the price I paid for it(roughly $20), it just feels good in my hand... and it's easy to point and shoot, it's interesting how different it feels compared to a large auto. I take it out almost every day and just look at it... I ain't kidding.

Marvinsson

April 18, 2007, 10:12 AM

The gun you have is better than the one at home in the safe. That being stated, allow me to opine.

I've never fired a shot in anger or self defense, but have carried a Raven .25, a NAA .22/.22 mag revolver, and currently a Seecamp .32. The Raven would jam, apparently because of "weak-wristing" on my part. Also, the firing pin, which was apparently made from pressed tin foil, broke more than once. They were inexpensive to replace, and the company was apparently used to customers requesting new ones. (I bought two!) The NAA is tiny, concealable, but difficult to shoot quickly with the stock grips. I've heard people say that the combo grip/clip holster works well, but haven't tried it. The Seecamp is a great gun. It's accurate enough for it's purpose, and rides in my pocket very nicely. As for stopping power, I can't comment other than to paraphrase Jeff Cooper. "If you empty your .25 into an assailant, it will definitely give you an advantage in the fisticuffs that are sure to follow."

kb2iaw

April 19, 2007, 09:18 AM

Very interesting thread...Its kind of like buying a car,its all about what fits you and how you drive . as far as looks ...beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...if thats important to you . For a tool you would not use a screw driver for a chisel, or a pair of pliers to drive a nail ! So it comes down to the right tool to do the job . A .25 cal is great for close encounters ,10 or 20 feet . certinally not 100 feet target . On the other hand .22 cal is not really a self defence round, but a few well placed rounds will stop you . When you feel the hot sting of either round...it will give you a few seconds to put a few more better placement shots . All this I M O

7.62

April 19, 2007, 01:06 PM

I started this thread almost 2 years ago and just came accross it because somewhat had to drag it back up. Wow, no posts for a year and a half until yesterday. Well, I still have no .25, but wouldn't mind a Walther in .32. .17's are cool too. Let the conversation proceed.

7.62

Jart

April 19, 2007, 05:40 PM

Thread necromancy is an interesting thing.

I've adopted a Baby Browning since I first posted. Oddly enough, the trigger is several orders of magnitude better than one could reasonably expect.

It's reliable provided I don't get too high on the grip and inhibit slide travel. Fortunately, it is incapable of "slide bite"; it's more like a "slide butterfly kiss".

Taxidermist

April 19, 2007, 06:07 PM

I can't help myself. I've pounded a nail with pliers before and I'm sure at some point I had used a screwdriver for something it wasn't designed for. LOL...

I have a .25. I carry it once in awhile. A gun is a gun and i love em all.

John

Agios

April 20, 2007, 06:33 PM

Hey, I wouldn't throw a 25. semiauto out of the bed. I've never owned one. My first gun was an AMT 22 Hi-Velocity Back Up that I bought 25 years ago.

It is very small, built solid and tight and concealable, but definitely slightly larger than a Baby Browning.

My AMT only cycles with hi-velocity ammo and therefore I only use hollow-point CCI Stingers. I never had an FTF. I don't know how the ballistics of the 22. CCI Stingers compare to a 25. Also are 25.s capable of handling vi-velocity ammo?

With 22.s and 25.s it is always preferable to make neck and face hits for hopefully a quick deterance of an attack. But that's a challenge under pressure. And therein is the difference between mouse and larger calibers. With 9mm and above you can unload on a bad guys COM with a much higher probability of a quicker stop than with mouse calibers, thereby foregoing the need for precision shooting. (Although I feel that a 380. is COM gun as well.) Of course, in the end, regardless of what gun your carrying, just make sure it goes bang whenever you pull its trigger and that you can hit your desired target!