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SimonVallore
June 30, 2005, 09:12 PM
how are poeple turning ak's full autyo i heard they file down the sear pin is this true and is there a way they do it that it wont just empty the gun

locked'n'cocked
June 30, 2005, 09:15 PM
yea can be done that way and is really illegal. i doubt you will get anybody to go into detail on how to do such an illegal thing on this website.

4V50 Gary
June 30, 2005, 09:33 PM
Also dangerous to file down any parts. Why you ask? Because you can have a premature ignition before the action is locked up. That means damage or destruction of the firearm and injury to the user. Full auto guns have some "trip" device that allows the hammer to fall after the bolt is locked up. To have the hammer follow without any delay is inviting injury. :( Don't do it and take it to a licensed mfg, pay the $200 tax stamp and have it done legally.

SimonVallore
June 30, 2005, 09:51 PM
just curious ive talked to people but didnt know if it was true

Crosshair
July 1, 2005, 12:29 AM
It is really hard to do it properly on guns that fire from the closed bolt without having a proper full auto trigger kit. (Open bolt is another story) Some guns are rather easy to do, but the big risk is the hammer droping before the bolt has locked. Looking at the SKS trigger group I figure it would be easy to make it full auto. (Don't we all at least THINK how to do this stuff. :p ) The hard part would be doing it correctly. Do it wrong and that hammer is falling before the bolt has locked. IMHO full auto in rifles is overrated. (But darn cool :D ) Even if I did try and convert one, I wouldn't shoot it without being behind a barrier with a string on the trigger.

In short, yes it can be done. It is very risky and you stand a good chance of getting the nickname "lefty". Not to mention a free visit to gestapo headquarters.

cosmolinelover
July 2, 2005, 05:13 PM
4v50 gary..... I may be wrong but I don't think he can go get his AK converted legally to full auto if he is just a civilian. Its been 19 years since they stopped transfering and/or creating them for us :( but I guess if He was a LEO or something he could get it done.

Well maybe he could also pay up the butt for a registered full auto sear... if they exist for AKs... I know they're around for HKs.... hmmm... too bad I'm not rich and can't afford such luxories.....

And SimonVallore.... dude... you don't wanna have anything at all that could be construed as full auto if it aint 110% legal. For about $3500 you can buy yourself a legal full auto Mac... don't know how great it would be... but I think thats about the beginning price for legal full autos these days. And up and up and up from there.

Unless you're Ted Kennedy who has no respect for laws that he fights for you'll undoubtedly end up in the pokey for possessing something "homemade" like that.

cuate
July 2, 2005, 09:16 PM
The thought of an AK or other rifle being full auto is invigorating until we consider the penalty of owning such illegally. Its not worth it!

They are quite expensive to feed if you like to hear them rock and roll, you cannot go to the range to fire them, if someone hears automatic weapon fire they are likely to call the law enforcement who work fairly closely with the ATF who will eat you alive and after you pay the fines and get out of jail, will never be able to own any firearm or ammo.

If you have to have a full auto weapon, if you play, you gotta pay, the cheapest in the long run is buying a legal
SMG and doing the paperwork.

After dark in the Penintentiary in a tiny cell with an Ape would not be worth a full auto AK-47

James K
July 2, 2005, 09:34 PM
Just having one converted has not been legal since 1986, since the law passed at that time closed the machinegun registry, meaning no new machineguns can be registered to individuals since that time, only to Class 3 dealers/manufacturers and LE agencies. Guns previously owned are legal to transfer, but the fixed number of transferrable guns has caused prices to skyrocket.

Besides, conversion is not that easy with the AK. You need a new bolt carrier, a trip lever, a new safety lever, and an auto sear. The conversion can be, and has been, done, but it is not just a matter of filing something or dropping in a "lightning link" of some kind.

So, how do "they" do it. Well, "they" mostly don't; the AK that "is easily converted to a machinegun" is anti gun propaganda, put out by the people who want to ban semi-autos and want to convince the public that all semi-autos are machineguns, and all owners are terrorists.

What about movies? More and more, movie guns aren't even real and don't fire anything, even blanks. The actor pretends to fire a dummy gun and the boys in the back room add the flash and noise to the digital master. (And no, those light sabers in Star Wars aren't really there, either; on the set, the actors are seen waving handgrips at each other.)

Jim

turbodohc20
July 3, 2005, 12:39 AM
How can these guys sell these legally? I didn't see a legal disclaimer anywhere saying it's not legal to do these conversions. J/W :confused:
Can find a lot of parts here as well.
http://www.firingpin.com/fullauto3.htm
http://www.butokukai.com/product13.html
http://www.ftfindustries.com/new_page_1.htm

cosmolinelover
July 3, 2005, 01:33 AM
wow turbo. they sure make it sound "legal." :eek:

I'm guessing the reason they can sell those legally is because we live in a "free" society where people are still held accountable for their actions. Whether or not some website is selling a "How to" manual on how to convert a weapon to full-atuo illegally, that information could be obtained with or without some website sellin it. So it comes down to whether anyone is stupid enough to do so.

Criminals already carry guns anyway... a fair amount probably also carry full-autos they ghettoly converted or bought (illegally) that way. So I guess its not all that unreasonable to figure you and I can at least be privy to the information to do so. And the fact is through trial and error I'm sure someone could figure out how to do it on their own anyway. Baring an inferior mental capacity.

shaggy
July 3, 2005, 08:46 AM
How can these guys sell these legally? I didn't see a legal disclaimer anywhere saying it's not legal to do these conversions. J/W
Can find a lot of parts here as well.

The manuals and directions on how to convert are covered under the first amendment. Full auto parts (NOT conversion parts - be sure you understand the difference) are legal for use as replacement parts in registered full autos. However, the act of converting a semi-auto to full auto is still illegal, and in some cases even mere possession of the semiauto firearm in conjunction with some full auto parts (even when not actually installed in the semi) is also illegal.

ATW525
July 3, 2005, 09:15 AM
I'll also point out that you don't know who's selling you those manuals. You could very well be buying manuals to convert your AK to full auto from an ATF sting operation.

In addition you'll have to live in fear of being caught for the rest of your life until you dispose of the illegal machine gun. Even if you keep it tucked away in your house and never use it you could SOL if there's ever a fire and the investigators stumble upon your machine gun. If you hide it a vehicle, you could end up in a accident someday.

k_dawg
July 3, 2005, 10:41 AM
It requires one to physically modify the AK reciever, in order to convert to "full auto" (*). That is why the parts are easily available. Simply having the parts is not considered a violation by the BATF.

Now, parts for the AR-15 for full-auto are more restricted. Why? Because they are a simple-drop in part requiring no modification to the firearm. Simply having a legal semiautomatic AR-15, and the conversion kit under the same roof has been successfully tried as posession of an unlawful/unregistered machine gun.

If you want a very close-proximation of full auto fire from an AK, just learn how to bump fire. Perfectly legal, and relatively safe.




(*) There are some cheap "hacks", which I won't discuss, nor should anyone else. But it only allows uncontrolled fire, and can cause serious damage, both to the firearm/user from out-of-battery firings. Not to mention highly illegal as well.

bergie
July 3, 2005, 10:44 AM
I have flipped through a couple of those type "manuals" at gunshows, and they almost always have a disclaimer in them "FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY" .

bergie

boofus
July 3, 2005, 01:57 PM
They could easily say those books are for Class 2 SOTs who can legally manufacture MGs for sale to LE/military/govt. As long as those books have a legitimate reason to exist I don't think the ATF really cares about regulating them.

big daddy 9mm
July 3, 2005, 05:20 PM
I have ideas to on how to make weapons fully automatic but with the laws and hassle of not being able to use a weapon that is fullauto around people just gives me incinticve to practice pulling that trigger as fast as you can. :( :( :cool: :cool: P.S. you might want to buy a 22lr rifle and practice making it full auto. that is what I am going to do one of these days. after I know that I can do it I will just put it back to factory and just know that I can. ;)

ATW525
July 3, 2005, 05:44 PM
P.S. you might want to buy a 22lr rifle and practice making it full auto. that is what I am going to do one of these days. after I know that I can do it I will just put it back to factory and just know that I can.

A little hint: If you're planning to knowingly break the law, don't post your intentions to do so on the Internet. :p

Kevin Quinlan
July 3, 2005, 07:05 PM
Keep all your guns legal. You will sleep better at night.


Kevin

BUSTER51
July 4, 2005, 03:24 PM
Unless you think you might enjoy prison sex ,you may want to rethink the whole thing.now the good news it is a fedral crime so you get to go to a fedral pen ,and they have the best food and medical care.

Heist
July 4, 2005, 08:11 PM
There's a huge market of people just bringing the receivers from Iraq and dropping them into legal AKs.

4V50 Gary
July 5, 2005, 08:18 AM
Bringing in receivers or other parts? I thought the internal rails on civilian AKs were different from the military counterparts.

Heist
July 5, 2005, 12:40 PM
When I find out that I've been associating with someone with ties to criminals, I drop any contact with them, so I didn't press for details. The gist of it is that bringing the whole AK is too much risk and trouble when all that matters is the receiver. Drop it into a civvie, or build it up with a parts kit, something like that. Probably a good thing that I don't know the exact details, but I'm not in any hurry to run to the ATF to tell them what I know either.

DT Guy
July 5, 2005, 12:49 PM
Please tell the other BATFE agents 'hi' from me, would you? :rolleyes:




Larry

Eghad
July 5, 2005, 05:14 PM
Wow that would be really stupid to risk your military career for an AK 47 :rolleyes:

James K
July 5, 2005, 05:14 PM
In some cases, the part or combination of parts alone is legally a machinegun and possession of unregistered parts is illegal, whether or not the person possessing the part or parts has a gun on which they can be installed.

For example, a carbine "M2 kit" is a machinegun of and by itself, and illegal to possess without registration, even if the owner does not have access to an M1 carbine on which to install it.

The ads mentioned are not for sales of machineguns, they are for sales of books. Buying or selling books is not illegal, but doing what they tell you to do is. Some ads even sell parts that they say are "legal to possess". True, in some cases, but if you put those parts in a gun, you are violating the law. The ads are deliberately deceptive, sort of like the guy on the corner telling you that the white stuff is just for pleasure.

Jim

Heist
July 5, 2005, 06:34 PM
Although we only hear about the army guys doing it that get caught, this was by privatized types.

shaggy
July 5, 2005, 09:49 PM
There's a huge market of people just bringing the receivers from Iraq and dropping them into legal AKs.

Baloney. :rolleyes:

I'm sure there have been some that have been snuck back, but its not widespread and there's no "huge market". Higher quality AK parts are already relatively cheap and easy to legally obtain here. Hardy worth the risk of a felony for importing parts sans the required F6 for less than $300 worth of parts. No one with an IQ higher than their shoe size would bother with a receiver.

3 weelin geezer
July 5, 2005, 10:08 PM
Wy would you want to ruin a perfectly good 'ak' doing this? Join the army and get to go where they are used (legally?) where there is infinite beachhead but no beach and there are NO 'girls gone wild' videos available. Where you can actually say I smoked a camel (with said ak) and come back with pictures. You also get to play with RPG's and other machine guns on someone else's tab. Hell, if you are lucky enough, you may get to play soldier with a real actual honest to goodness tank that really fires and you don't have to make that motorboat sound that makes your lips go numb. :D

No, really. If you want to shoot real quick, learn to bump fire that thing or get a hellfire spring. My brother has one and it really works. Just that the gun has to be broken in good first. His friend emptied the 20 rd magazine non stop like a real ak. It works best on these guns I think. Ar-15 shoot maybe 2-3 rd bursts.

3 weelin geezer
July 5, 2005, 10:19 PM
Hey, jim. I have a real lightsaber. Honest. Made it myself. I used a bunch of stuff from lowe's hardware, Walmart, and some bits and pieces from a used speak and spell I found at Radio shack. Oh, yeah. I also used my dad's golf club for the blade. I don't think he uses the #5 too much so he may not miss it. No, they don't just wave handles at each other. They use aluminum poles and a coreee...chory...Aww! the guy that thinks up how they fight. You know what I mean.

turbodohc20
July 5, 2005, 10:23 PM
I have a SAR1 and I like it just fine as a semi :D
If I feel the urge to shoot a machine gun, I just go to my buddies and run a few mags thru his Sten.

turbodohc20
July 5, 2005, 10:25 PM
Which is legal BTW. I know that would be the next post.

ATW525
July 6, 2005, 05:34 AM
I find it hard to believe that people who can break an AK down to the receiver and then reassemble them again would have any difficulty converting a semi receiver to an illegal machine gun. The conversion isn't as simple as just dropping in a few parts, but it's still a heck of alot easier than smuggling in receivers from overseas and a whole lot less risky. Only a moron would bring receivers back.

3 weelin geezer
July 9, 2005, 08:55 PM
I agree. Having the opportunity to shoot one over 'there' and taking lots of video to remember the occasion would sure be better than spending time in jail, losing a lot of money and the future headaches such a conviction would bring.

James K
July 11, 2005, 11:33 AM
The statement that AR-15 FA parts are just "drop-in" is not entirely true. A proper conversion requires installation of the full auto sear, which does involve drilling and machining the civilian AR-15 receiver. The so-called "drop-in auto sear (DIAS) will function but requires that the other parts (bolt carrier, trigger, hammer, sear, selector) be in the M2 configuration. Further, the DIAS is now a machinegun of itself and can legally be used to convert an AR-15 to FA only if registered (few are).

Jim

Sturmgewehr-58
July 11, 2005, 02:07 PM
The statement that AR-15 FA parts are just "drop-in" is not entirely true.

A semi-auto AR-15 with M-16A2 fire control parts will fire three-round bursts, even without an auto sear or any modification to the receiver. I have witnessed this first-hand. One should avoid having M-16 parts anywhere near an AR-15.

There's a huge market of people just bringing the receivers from Iraq and dropping them into legal AKs.

There is nothing "drop in" about changing the receiver of an AK. As mentioned before, it would be easier to convert an existing semi-auto receiver to full-auto. I have seen this done several times by a C2 manufacturer friend of mine.

shaggy
July 11, 2005, 03:25 PM
A semi-auto AR-15 with M-16A2 fire control parts will fire three-round bursts, even without an auto sear or any modification to the receiver. I have witnessed this first-hand. One should avoid having M-16 parts anywhere near an AR-15.

It may work, but not reliably. What you're doing is creating a slam fire operation. In a rifle it is both extremely unreliable, and very dangerous. When the hammer rides the bolt home, there is often not enough power to fire a round so you'll often have stoppages - live round in the chamber with the hammer down. In such a situation you'll need to use the charging handle to extract & eject the round in the chamber and recock the hammer before you can continue to fire. Very unpredictable, annoying, and unreliable. Also by operating a rifle in a slam fire mode, you run the risk of a catastrophic failure by touching off the round before fully chambered. Unless one enjoys the possibility of pulling pieces of the bolt and reveiver out of their face its not a smart idea. Timing is an important function in a machinegun and for good reason.

Sturmgewehr-58
July 11, 2005, 03:42 PM
It may work, but not reliably. What you're doing is creating a slam fire operation. In a rifle it is both extremely unreliable, and very dangerous. When the hammer rides the bolt home, there is often not enough power to fire a round so you'll often have stoppages - live round in the chamber with the hammer down.

I am aware of these things, but the rifle I witnessed being fired with these modifications fired three-round bursts reliably. I wouldn't have thought this was possible if I had not seen it myself. I have heard that some FALs will fire this way also, but I have not seen it for myself, and I would not try it for fear of an out-of-battery ignition.

JohnBrowning
August 1, 2005, 08:04 PM
"Baloney.

I'm sure there have been some that have been snuck back, but its not widespread and there's no huge market".

That might be true for GI's in Iraq, but there is indeed a huge worldwide market for all types of guns. In high school I was offered AK's as well as Thompsons, uzi's, Mac's BXP's, and a lot of other stuff. I'm not quite sure where this stuff comes from, but most drug dealers can get you guns through their connections.

TEN-RING
September 24, 2005, 08:58 PM
We all know - - don't we - - that anyone with a few smarts in computers can find your language, filter your text for finding any topic they choose, list your computer's whereabouts and frequency of use by various users (as in a public library) and track you down for many and varied offenses you might commit, and even lock you away for an indeterminate time......do we not ?? Just as a perv can be scammed into a "date" with a bogus teeny-bopper, just the same way our conversations can be monitored without search-warrent, by any number of Federal organizations. "They" have probably perched on this site for quite awhile. Sleep safe, sleep tight, sleep legal. That being said, I have a "friend" who showed me an SKS he'd tricked out into "full race" configuration, folding stock and all that "banned" stuff, including select-fire, via a removable key out the bottom of the receiver, and a suppressor which would run at FA and sound like an air rifle. Except it got cherry red after about five minutes. I had no use for one like that but this was 10 years ago. Maybe now I would like to see him again, but I'd sure not ask his address on this page of this site. "It's not really illegal if they don't catch you at it." Not true.

FrontSight
September 27, 2005, 09:53 AM
Man, what is the point of converting to full auto illegally? You can't shoot it, you can't enjoy it, you risk getting sent to jail and butt raped for years, and you threaten every single law abiding gun owner by giving the antis good reason to not trust gun owners. It's a no-win situation and hurts more people than just you.

If you really love full auto that much then fill out the proper paperwork and get licensed, make a career out of it, etc so it's legit and you don't have to worry about doing anything that can land you in jail. Or just fly to vegas and go to the legal firing ranges where you can pay to shoot them.

Either way, it's just so dumb to risk it for a full auto, and puts the whole shooting sports at risk, so my recommendation is to not do it.

stevesomebody
October 3, 2005, 11:27 PM
SimonVallore
Member


Join Date: 06-29-2005
Posts: 15 How do people turn these ak's full auto

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

how are poeple turning ak's full autyo i heard they file down the sear pin is this true and is there a way they do it that it wont just empty the gun


There is no sear in a semi-auto AKM. Most wannabe 1 minute conversions like you are describing rely on simply disabling the disconnector and allowing the hammer to free fall behind the bolt carrier as it moves forward back into battery for as long as the trigger is pulled. One of three things will happen: 1. The gun will basicly slam fire and you will have pseudo-full auto fire 2. The hammer will not strike the firing pin hard enough to fire the primer since it is traveling at the same speed as, and basicly resting on, the bolt carrier and stops at almost the same instant the carrier does (especially with hard primers e.g. Yugo military ammo) If you have an AKM variant insert a loaded mag keep the weapon pointed in a safe direction, fully retract the charging handle and let it slam forward chambering a round. Now remove the magazine and extract the round and note the indent on the (hopefully) unfired primer. The ammunition is designed to withstand nominal impact of the firing pin as the bolt travels forward under normal operation. The impact from the falling hammer won't be much greater if it's allowed to simply follow the bolt carrier as just described. 3. The weapon will fire out of battery i.e. bolt not locked and will blow up making the operator wish he had never tried something so dangerously stupid. IMHO 2 is the most likely occurrence with 3 a close second and 1 a rather distant 3rd. The pressure of the 7.62X39 round is about 40,000 PSI. Not something to play around.

Most correct NFA conversions were done simply by replacing the semi-auto fire control parts with full auto parts along with the bolt carrier and drilling the receiver to accept the needed axis pin. Anytime the bolt or carrier are replaced the headspace MUST be checked. The full auto parts are and have been legal, plentiful and cheap. Far cheaper than machining up a custom solution. It's a very simple conversion since the weapons were originally designed as select fire in the first place and have just been given minor changes to limit them to semi only. I can't see any reason any responsible person would use anything but factory parts in the same configuration as originally intended.

In a nutshell it's now illegal for individuals to manufacture new machine guns although there is a legal precendent which if upheld by the supreme court may change this under some specfic circumstances. In a nutshell the 9th circuit has ruled in US v Robert Stewart Wilson Jr. that congress has no authority to regulate machineguns or manufacture thereof not substantially affecting interstate commerce. "substantially affecting interstate commerce" is the key so you will probably not be able to walk into a gun store and buy a new factory MP5 for the $900 or so retail price anytime soon but you may be able to once again manufacture your own machineguns legally provided the changes you make are substantial and you aren't using ready made parts substantially affecting interstate commerce. The ruling has been stayed pending appeal to the US supreme court. But for right now gun enthusiasts have a verdict decidedly in our favor. You can find the opinon at:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/90B5FFB18A092A6F88256DDD000000FE/$file/0210318.pdf?openelement

There is some mention of gun kits etc in the case. That is NOT directly relevant to the machinegun issue.

joshua
October 4, 2005, 05:21 AM
AKs don't fire full auto from open bolt position.... correct me if I'm wrong. josh

Crosshair
October 4, 2005, 08:49 AM
joshua

AKs don't fire full auto from open bolt position.... correct me if I'm wrong. josh

Nope, AKs fire from the closed bolt position. No way the ATF would let them in the US if they fired from the open bolt.

joshua
October 4, 2005, 12:39 PM
Crosshair, it's 0240hrs here and the way I'm reading your post it's a closed bolt. Here is my question, did M. Kalishnikov originally design it to fire full auto in the open bolt position? I've always thought open bolt would not be conducive to accuracy, plus it lets in foreign debris into the action. josh

too many choices!?
October 4, 2005, 03:53 PM
I don't know your background with weapons but from what I see in your post here are my answers to the questions...

The AK was designed as a selective fire assualt rifle, firing the 7.62x39 cartrige(AKA-Russian short), that fires from the closed bolt position.

Most weapons that fire from an open bolt postition are usually early machine pistols(mac's and tech 9 and such), but the true value of open bolt guns is not really reached until you get to true machine guns(ie belt feds, and disintergrating belt linked ammo), like 1919 and M2.

You are correct that the open bolt guns allow debris into the action, but they also cool faster and keep the ammo held in the Magazine or the bel, until the trigger is pulled. This helps prevent ,"cook offs", from sustained fire and heat build up in the chamber.

The true open bolt Machine guns, are less accurate than a closed bolt semi auto, but then again with,"cone of fire" and the,"beaten zone", being what they are, I doubt anybody misses the small amount of accuracy lost, and love the decrease in round,"cook-off" potential. As with everthing else, open vs. closed bolt is a trade off...Hope this helps :).

shaggy
October 4, 2005, 04:03 PM
but the true value of open bolt guns is not really reached until you get to true machine guns(ie belt feds, and disintergrating belt linked ammo), like 1919 and M2.

Not to diminish your point about open bolt heavy and GPMGs (because it is valid), but the M2 and the 1919 fire from a closed bolt.

too many choices!?
October 4, 2005, 04:42 PM
I shoulda stuck with the ones I know are open bolt, like the M249 S.A.W. Is the M60 open or closed bolt?....Atleast I got the major points across correctly :o. Belt-feds really aren't my cup of tea, I am more of an AK/AR kinda guy :D...

Mike40-11
October 4, 2005, 08:05 PM
Let me see, how did that block of instruction go...

"This is an M60. It is fully automatic 7.62 mm, air-cooled, belt-fed, gas-operated weapon that fires from the open bolt position. It has a maximum effective range of 1100 meters and and sustained rate of fire of 200 rounds per minute...." etc, etc.

Open bolt. I KNEW there was a reason I had to memorize that. :)

joshua
October 5, 2005, 09:18 AM
I'm an AK/AR kind of guy too, but no class III yet. I know I'd learn something here. josh

Powderman
October 5, 2005, 11:35 AM
have ideas to on how to make weapons fully automatic but with the laws and hassle of not being able to use a weapon that is fullauto around people just gives me incinticve to practice pulling that trigger as fast as you can. P.S. you might want to buy a 22lr rifle and practice making it full auto. that is what I am going to do one of these days. after I know that I can do it I will just put it back to factory and just know that I can.

Uh, yeah. Right.

Here's your sign.

Powderman
October 5, 2005, 11:38 AM
This thread has no constructive purpose, and has trouble all over it with a capital T. Will someone PLEASE lock it?

So far, at least two people have actively discussed clear violations of Federal law. One has even declared intent.

I have no wish to be lumped into a Federal investigation. Granted, no laws broken yet--but some folks are pushing the envelope.

C Philip
October 5, 2005, 12:15 PM
I was under the impression that is was legal to make your own MG as long as you registered it. Does that only apply if you build it from scratch? Or could you legally machine your own full auto conversion part for a gun, register it, and be legal?

shaggy
October 5, 2005, 12:32 PM
I was under the impression that is was legal to make your own MG as long as you registered it. Does that only apply if you build it from scratch? Or could you legally machine your own full auto conversion part for a gun, register it, and be legal?

Nope, FOPA'86 cutoff the registration of any MGs made after that date for civilian possession. IOW, under the NFA an individual can make their own machinegun if it is properly registered and tax paid, but the enactment of 18 USC 922(o) in 1986 cutoff the registration process for civilians (thus you can't make a new one because you can't register it).

C Philip
October 5, 2005, 12:47 PM
I understand it now, thanks for clearing that up. However, if you buy a legal registered full auto conversion kit, then install it in your gun, aren't you making a machine gun? Or is it ok since the part is registered as a machine gun?

shaggy
October 5, 2005, 01:02 PM
The conversion part is the machinegun. For example, I own several registered sears. Although its only a small part, it is registered as a machinegun and must be transfered as a machinegun. Legally it IS a machinegun. When I install one into the host gun, the sear remains the machinegun, but the host firearm temporarily becomes part of the same machinegun while the sear is installed. (its important to note that installation of a registered part should not involve any permanent physical changes to the host firearm that would permantly render it a machinegun after the registered part was removed)

Capice? :D

C Philip
October 5, 2005, 01:21 PM
Yes, I get it now. Thanks again. :)

Cortland
October 6, 2005, 05:30 PM
IOW, under the NFA an individual can make their own machinegun if it is properly registered and tax paid, but the enactment of 18 USC 922(o) in 1986 cutoff the registration process for civilians (thus you can't make a new one because you can't register it).
To be technical, 922(o) makes civilian possession or transfer of ANY machine gun illegal, but exempts guns registered prior to 1986. It's a fine difference, but is one of the reasons why another 1968-style amnesty wouldn't help with respect to MGs. There have been bills proposed that would hold another amensty, but they also have to fiddle with 922(o) to make it work.

shaggy
October 6, 2005, 05:51 PM
To be technical, 922(o) makes civilian possession or transfer of ANY machine gun illegal, but exempts guns registered prior to 1986. It's a fine difference, but is one of the reasons why another 1968-style amnesty wouldn't help with respect to MGs. There have been bills proposed that would hold another amensty, but they also have to fiddle with 922(o) to make it work.

I'm well aware of the concurrent laws regarding NFA and the technicalities thereof - both under title 18 and title 26. Sometimes I find its better to keep it simple than further confuse the issue for the newbies. A fine difference to be sure, but without any significant effect for the purposes of the prior discussion herein.

Cortland
October 6, 2005, 05:54 PM
without any significant effect for the purposes of the prior discussion herein
That is true. :)

shaggy
October 6, 2005, 06:26 PM
Cortland-

Didn't mean that to come off snotty - I hope you didn't take it that way. Its just that many people here are newbies and have enough trouble wrapping their heads around the basics of NFA ownership without getting into hypertechnical legal points (this ain't subguns or sturm...). You are correct, and like the now defunct 1994 AWB, proper registration (or proof of lawful ownership prior to 9-13-94 for the AWB) is only a defense to prosecution for simple possession.

Cortland
October 6, 2005, 07:38 PM
No, no, no. I know exactly what you mean. It can be difficult enough for new folks to assimilate all the intracacies of federal firearms law without getting all nitpicky and pendatic. I understand completely.

In my previous post I was just trying to be agreeable.

MicroBalrog
October 7, 2005, 01:21 AM
Shoestrings are still the way to go. (http://www.jpfo.org/shoestring.jpg)

joshua
October 7, 2005, 03:46 AM
Shoestrings? Wow! That scares me because with my light target AR trigger I can make it rock and roll by slapping the trigger fast. Hmmm... I wonder if they will classify my finger as a machinegun? :D :eek: josh

Johnny Guest
October 7, 2005, 06:14 PM
I need acknowledge Powderman's comments a page or so back - - I was hoping the thread might be an object lesson, and, really, all of the Full Auto Forum regulars here have been very good about urging compliance with the law.

Anyone who's still unclear about the legalities of a home conversion to full auto, please, re-read the entire thread.

Short answer:
DON'T DO IT!
You've been given good advice above.
If you can't comprehend it, just GO AWAY.

Thread closed.

Johnny