Muzzel Loader for Long Range Rifle

[Gunslinger]

Howdy All,
Just as I was begining to think that everyone had rode away from this fire fal308 came to our rescue and posted a new topic.
Can you all tell me if muzzel loaders, in my case a repro .50 cal. Hawkins, is legal in SASS matches? While we're on the subject what ranges are most SASS long range scenarios shoot at?
Thank you all kindly,
Gunslinger

[fal308]

Not sure about the Hawkins but I don't see why not. They have black powder pistol classes so I would think that they have a BP rifle class. If not in SASS I would imagine it's legal in WASA,(I think that's the acronym). As to range I believe it depends on the size available.

Gunslinger, there is a big BPCR long range match held monthly, I believe, in north central Illinois if I remember correctly. I bought one of my Vaqeros from a guy who shoots it occasionally. He has a beautiful Shiloh Sharps that he uses.

[Bill Mitchell]

Howdy Gunslinger,

Whether or not you could shoot your front-stuffer in a long range match probably depends on your local rules. Ask the shoot coordinator in your area. At our monthly long range matches,the rules vary,but typically you have 5 minutes to shoot at five targets. Sometimes we only get one shot per target,other times we can shoot as many shots as possible in the 5 minutes. You'd be handicapped if using the latter rules.

As to distances,it depends on the range and the area of the country where you shoot. In the East,matches are typically in the 300-600 yard,range,while out West,1000 yard matches aren't uncommon.

Bellicose Bill

[Trapdoor Billy]

Kinda agree with Bill here - you would be handicapped. Don't know what part of the east he is from, but around my parts of the east its 100 to 300 yards.

[El Chimango Pete]

Heck, in these parts the cowboy shooters have all come from the black powder gang - the IPSC and other pistoleros are just timidly starting to ask if they can join the fun (with our characteristic generosity we of course allow them - s'long as they leave their space-guns with the sheriff). Seems to be the natural evolution and in fact percussion lived with brass for quite a long time.

[Gunslinger]

I'm beginning to see what you all mean about being at a disadvantage. Most of the common stages of CAS require a lot of movement on the part of the shooter. Since I'm on a cane it isn't practical for me to attempt competeing in most of these. I've competed in several different shooting sports in the past prior to becoming disabled but would still like to take an active part in events using 19th century guns. I enjoy fast draw but quite frankly after awhile it becomes boring, at least to me. This may partially stem from years of shooting different "speed courses" during my career as a police officer before retiring.
The long range option sounds appealing but I'd like to get my feet wet, so to speak, before laying out the kind of cash a good long range gun. I've decided to go ahead with the Martini project (talked about else where on this site) but it will not be legal for SASS due to it's lack of exposed hammer. But as I've said before all of our firearms interest don't revolve solely around CAS, thankfully.

Elchimango, I'm building a custom Vaquero right now for a cowgirl shooter that participates at a unique shooting club. Since they lack enough shooters to have a CAS only shoot they allow shooters from all shooting disciplines to compete on the same course. The stages vary from week to week, some times giving the IPSC group the advantage and then the CAS folks the next. Each shoot with their own group and scores are handicapped to compensate for the differences in the guns used. She says they all love it. It gives them each a chance to see all of the various challenges associated with forms of shooting other then their own. She may take several guns to a shoot and compete with a single action, followed by her S&W 686 on the same course. When she described it to me it sounded like it would be fun and not require a person to go out and purchase a whole new set of guns just to play. I know the SASS/NCOWS folks wouldn't approve but we can't all afford the proper guns for each shooting sport. You might give it a try one time with your crowd down there. It would be a good way to "recruit' some new shooters. The black powder folks would probably enjoy seeing the IPSC guns in action and I'll bet that more then a few of the IPSC shooters would be surprised to see just how effective those old thumb busters can be in the hands of someone who knows how to use them.
Gunslinger

[El Chimango Pete]

Gunslinger - that plan for combined guns at the CAS range (or IPSC range) sounds worth trying - its more or less what i had in mind for our coming season (starts March) in the IPSC 'regional' matches - small and more flexible than the 'national'. Glad youre taken with the idea of the Martini :)
Building Schofields sounds expensive also (as the LeMat) - but the pocket gun could be great!
And Fal308 - I'll post domething (from the other thread) on early guns here south of the rio grande (working on it) - hasta pronto!

[BillOH]

Gunslinger, I don't think using a cane would prevent you from shooting main matches at CAS. I was at a match where a shooter was in a wheelchair. CAS is about having fun so if your local club won't let you shoot, then find one that will. Also I read a post on another board where someone shot an IDPA match on crutches. You may not be as fast as some of the young pups, but I bet you can have more fun. Good Luck. BillOH aka Lafe R. Supper

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[Bill Mitchell]

Howdy Gunslinger,

Mr. Supper is correct-clubs will make allowances for folks who aren't as mobile as others. We have several shooters who use canes,and,if they feel that they can't do something required in a stage,they explain that to the range officer,and changes are made then and there. Examples are not making someone lay down or get on one knee behind a prop if they will have difficulty getting back up. CAS is about comradeship and fun,and we make everyone possible feel comfortable shooting.

Bellicose Bill

[Gunslinger]

(Elchimango, I thought you and he would find it mutualy interesting "talking" about the old Martinis. BTW. Do you know/think that the new Martini actions sold by Navy Arms would be capable of handling the 7mm Rem. mag.? Maybe I could have the best of both worlds.)
I liked the looks of the "pocket" Schofield but I just can't see paying the price they're asking. On another discussion group there's a man building a Colt 1860 5.5" Sheriffs model reproduction using a Cimarron birdshead grip frame. It won't be SASS legal but it's still an interesting idea. In fact I wish that I would have thought of it myself. If it were built on one of the newer cartridge conversions it would be great. BTW. I've read that Traditions is offering the new cartridge conversion for $279.00 dealer. I'm not sure if that is for the 1851 Navy, 1860 Army or both or in which caliber, .38 or .44 Colt.

BillOH and Bill, I didn't mean to imply that my local club wouldn't accomidate me with the cane. I've yet to attend any type of shooting event that all the people haven't gone out of their way to help out any shooter in neede of it. I feel that most non gun owners could take a lesson comradery from those involved in the various shooting sports.
Gunslinger

[El Chimango Pete]

Many thanks Gunslinger for the catalog - got to me now, will go over it with more time. I'm really not that expert on the structural possibilities of the Martini action - or of the Spencer. Probably be able to spot weaknesses (or not) from a good engineering drawing. In Buenos Aires last June was at an antique shop where the owner had a loaded Sheriffs model - in his belt against unwelcome 'visitors'... didn't care for them Glocks and "newfangled things" and had repelled boarders in no uncertain manner just a few weeks before my visit.

[This message has been edited by Elchimango (edited February 23, 1999).]