Handgun for backup

[Jeffly]

After reading the post on Bears in Alaska I was wondering, How many of you carry a handgun for back up in the lower 48 states? And if so, what caliber and barrel length? Thanks Jeff

[Art Eatman]

If I'm not in the mood for serious Bambi-ing, I'll often quail hunt across country and carry a Redhawk in case an angry buck attacks me. :) 7-1/2" barrel; hot 300-grain loads.

Given the possibility of rounding a corner in a canyon and arguing right of way with a mountain lion, it's a comfort. With the increase in the black bear population out of Mexico and now, Big Bend National Park, it's even more of a comfort. I figure the odds are against a lion or bear actually attacking, but maybe not all of them truly believe they're supposed to run away.

Lions are not protected, here; bears are. The usual notions about common sense apply.

:), Art

[Robert the41MagFan]

Carry a handgun all the time. Whether hunting, scouting or biking, the 41 never leaves my side.

Was attacked by a cougar last hunting season and the cat almost got the best of me. He was hit three times with a 357 Magnum that although deterred his pursuit, did not drop him. He exited under full power.

From that experience, would have to say that 41, 44 or 45 are proper protection in the woods. Anything less, you are just fooling yourself.

Robert

[STEVE M]

I always carry my Kimber, hunting or not. when in the fields this year it will be loaded with 230gr +P's. (If I had a 44Mag. I would carry it instead).

[anodes]

I'm not a great HG buff, my "wee cartridges" are the .22rf, 9mm Para and the lovely .44 Mag. (these basically "cover" me). So when I carry the choice is easy; Dan Wesson, .44 Mag.!

However, I did hear a suggestion that got me thinkin': Anti-bear medicine, GLOCK style!

I'm not a Glock Geek, so I don't know the model designation, but hold on maybe not so wacky. What about a Glock in 10mm, not the .40SW, but the full size? Wouldn't the 10mm be as "good" as the .357 Mag., .41 Spec./Mag. and .44 Spec.? Is the 10mm the most powerfull chambering for a Glock?
anodes.

[J. Parker]

IMHO, I believe it depends on where you live. Eastern black bears tend to be quit a bit bigger than Western bears. Here in Wash. state when I go camping or fishing in the woods I'm presently packing a S&W mod28 .357 mag with Federals 180 gr. hardcast hunting load. Nearby is a Rem 870 HD 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs. I think a 10mm/.41 mag is certainly a viable choice but once again how big are the bears where you live? Just my thoughts. Good shooting, J. Parker

[fed168]

I carry a Smith .44 mag Mountain gun. I load it with 240 gr. XTPs, and depending on the time of year, mix the cylinder with XTPs and shot shells for snakes. It is light for a .44, the weight is the drawback when shooting it though.

[BadMedicine]

Whenever out hunting I always carry my ruger .22 seki automatic. I love shooting squirrels rabbits birds and the like with it. Whenever bear or moose hunting, or in a known bear area I carry a S&W security six .357 and my hunting partner (my dad :)) usually carries his ruger redhawk .44 mag. We also carry our .22 on the left side. I'm not saying that the .357 I'm carrying will save me from getting mauled or killed, but it's my last dying attempt to take the sonofabitch with me :)

[Robert the41MagFan]

Oh no! Gun rag groupies! :)

OK, lets have a quick class on ballistics. A 45acp +P has about 550 pound feet of energy at the barrel. Both .357 Magnum and 10mm can hurl a 200 grain projectile at 1300 FPS and about 650 pound feet of energy. That 10mm load has a TKO (Taylor Knock Out) of 14.85 (take a look at any reloading manual and you will see that this is a very generous offering. At least a +P+ load, S&W 610 only).

Forty-one Magnum, forty-four Magnum and forty-five Colt are ALL in another class of firearm. They all shoot 250 grain bullets at over 1300 FPS, have energy level well over 1/2 ton and TKO in the mid to low twenties.

Lesson of the day, 10mm ain't no 41 Magnum. :D

These are the medicine you use in the woods.
http://www.teleport.com/~ralfonso/bullets.JPG
The pill on the left is a 265 gr LBT 41 Magnum. It was clocked at 1450 FPS from a 657PC V-Comp. On the right, 300 gr LBT 44 Magnum. From a 4 inch 629PC V-comp, 1250 FPS.

Robert



[This message has been edited by Robert the41MagFan (edited July 31, 2000).]

[J. Parker]

I find it interesting knowing what everybody else carries in the woods. It might influence my next purchase. Of all the bears I have seen in the wild (5) one was of good size. I'm guessing maybe 300 lbs. The most energy I can muster out of a handgun is about 640ft.lbs. In my neck of the woods I'm comfortable with that. .41 magnum? No way. I don't handload, not enough factory offerings. If you want to deal with .41 magnum recoil why not just get a .44 maggie? More gun offerings, more factory offerings (some really stout), simply- a more commom calibre. I can see one in the not to distant future. That said, do I really need a 41 or 44 or 45 or 454 or 50AE or some other Megadeath calibre for a 200 lb. black bear? Bear threads crack me up. :) :) :) Just my thoughts, J. Parker

[J. Parker]

Robert; Where was your trusty .41 mag when the cougar attacked?

[Al Thompson]

For the SE I usually carry a Glock 26 w/an extra mag. I am way more worried about two legged predators than four legged ones.

The 9mm JHP is the minimum for finishing off Bambi.

If animals are a concern, my M629 Mountain Gun gets the nod. I like the Federal 300 grain loads.

Giz

[Ron Ankeny]

When I am hunting I carry my rifle, duh. I always wonder why folks pack a rifle and a handgun. Who would through a rifle down to draw a pistol?

In the summer, I carry bear spray. I used to carry a .44 Mtn. Gun, but I sold it. I also have a .45 auto in my tent for two legged predators.

[Art Eatman]

Ron Ankeny: A .22 pistol is easier on the eardrums for the occasional snake, and is good if you need a coup de grace on a wounded deer or whatever...

And you can always dream up a scenario where some Bad Guy gets the drop on you and sez, "drop the rifle" but doesn't know you've got a tuckaway friend...

Whatever,

Art

[J. Parker]

"Bear" with me on this one cause I don't remember the exact story- Two Canadian deer hunters (maybe elk) had killed their prey, opened their actions and started dressing it when they were attacked and both killed by a bear that wanted their kill. Sure would have been nice to have a pistol on your belt in that instance! Where I camp and fish there are three predators- bears, cougars, and humans. I'm confident I can take care of all three! Pepper spray? Our ancestors would be ashamed! When they ventured out in the woods they had whatever weaponry they could make or carry or sharpen. If an animal or rival tribe struck at them they would strike back to kill! Not wound or make feel bad. As far as calibre is concerned you're not trying for a "one shot stop" (humane kill as in hunting). Pull the trigger, then pull it again until you get the desired results. Kill or be killed! I've said it before- pepper spray is for cops and mail carriers! :) :) :) Best Regards, J. Parker

[Robert the41MagFan]

J. Parker,

Where was my 41 Magnum? At home! Now was that stupid of me or what. Last season I had this wild and crazy idea of dropping 250 lbs deer with a 357 Magnum. You know. Show off to the friends about my hunting prowess. And that is what I did.

Hey, I had a gun. A mighty 357 Magnum (pea shooter!), didn't need anything easy (a hand canon!). Right! And besides, we've heard this over and over again in these forums, critters with claws and teeth don't attack people, they run and hide. Pin a bell to my ass and I will never be attacked. Guess that advice was wrong and a glance from almost being dead wrong. This cat was over 150 lbs and over 8 feet long from head to tail. And hungry.

Robert

[J. Parker]

Good one Robert, you made me laugh. I think where we live cougars are more of a problem than bears. Cougs and mushroom pickers! I'm not kidding, their serious about their mushrooms! I used to ride ATV's in the Lehman Hot Springs area and we would come around a corner and there they were. Guns and all! Serious business that there mushroom pickin'. Yeah, when I go hiking and the woods get thick the hair stands up on the back of my neck and I keep looking over my shoulder. I feel like something is watching me. I've seen bears but never a coug. Best Regards, J. Parker

[Al Thompson]

Biggest animal problem we have here is dogs. Usually not feral, just a bunch of either hunting dogs or neighborhood packs running deer.

I have never shot a dog and don't plan too, but I have thrown dirt on many with the handgun.

Giz

[Dave McC]

I do lots of hunting on the Eastern shore of Md, mostly bowhunting. No bear, no lions, but feral dogs, and the coons have a rabies problem.So, I take along my GM...

[Will Beararms]

I certainly hope to never be in the position to defend myself with a handgun against a wild hog or recently imported Brown Bear. Why they brought bear to SE Arkansas, I will never know. My suspicion is that the only way government types can justify their salary is to screw up what works and create new programs. While we are on the subject I hope these Einsteins know that the first time a bear crosses paths with a SE AR Redneck in the wild, one of the two will be history.

I do carry a .45ACP but this is more out of love for the cartridge and a general passion for handguns than the hope that it will be of use. I hope that the .30-30 will fill this niche.

[This message has been edited by Will Beararms (edited August 01, 2000).]

[Jay Baker]

Gizmo99, I guarantee if you are ever attacked by a pack of REAL feral dogs, you'll either shoot them or they'll tear you to ribbons. Been there and done that! In my opinion, feral dogs are more dangerous than any other animal out in the woods!

As for handguns when hunting, I always have a Mdl. 60 S&Klinton IF I am carrying a centerfire rifle.

If I am hiking/scouting for elk & deer, not carrying a centerfire rifle, I always carry my S&Klinton Mdl. 57 .41 Mag, or my Ruger B.H. .45 L.C., both with my rather stiff handloads.

If bird hunting, I have my 12 guage, plus my Colt's .45acp L.W. Commander, a constant friend of mine for many, many years.

I camp/hunt in heavy bear country, both black and griz, so while in camp, (I do a lot of camp cooking, wood gathering, etc.), I have the .41 or .45 in a shoulder holster. Out of the way but it's there in an emergency.

For me, it all depends on the situation, location, etc. Different strokes, as they say. FWIW. J.B.

[Keith Rogan]

Ron, >>>>>Who would throw a rifle down to draw a pistol?<<<<<<

Damned good point!



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

[J. Parker]

I don't think anybody so far in this thread would throw down a long gun in favor of a handgun. Two hunters in Canada would possibly be alive today if they would have had a handgun of some kind when they were dressing out their kill. Instead, there're dead because their bolt actions were found open laying on the ground when a bear attacked killing both. Unless it's prohibited I think it's a damn good idea to carry a handgun while hunting or anytime.

[Robert the41MagFan]

I hunt with either a bow or handgun 99% of the time. Kind of have no choice.

Robert

[Keith Rogan]

Yeah, I can think of lots of situations where having a handgun while hunting is sane and smart.
It can also be a redundancy at times.




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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan (http://members.xoom.com/keithrogan)

[Ron Ankeny]

I was just playing the "devil's advocate". I carried a handgun with me for years. Nowadays, I just carry the bear spray in the summer and a rifle when I hunt. I just don't see the need for a pistol, but I do keep my rifle loaded when around the "kill" if I am in bear country.

[Randy Garrett]

Lets remember that ammunition selection trumps caliber selection everytime. Although bigger, more powerful calibers make sense for defense in the woods, the greater determiner of impact effect will be the bullets used. For instance, a 45 ACP with hard-cast bullets will always outpenetrate a magnum revolver with expanding bullets. Given that, the caliber which gives the most penetration (assuming reasonable diameter) is better than the caliber that produces less penetration, regardless of the comparative power generation. Pursuit of effectiveness through power generation will lead to significant recoil, something that can get in the way, but does not necessarily lead to improved impact-effect. Shooting as big a gun as we can handle makes sense in the woods for defense, but, if not combined with proper bullet selection, can lead to underpenetration and less than desired results. Select your bullets as carefully as you select your caliber!

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com (http://www.garrettcartridges.com)

[J. Parker]

Randy; Well said. Believe me, I'm no expert but I read somewhere that ft. lbs. of energy are a big determining factor in Knock Down or Killing Power. Let's take my Glock 21 for example; I know it's not a great woods calibre but if I took it into the woods do I load it with the highest energy ammo or the highest penetrating ammo? Best Regards, J. Parker

[Randy Garrett]

J. Parker: I'm just not a believer in energy transfer being a significant killing agent. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, which tells me that if power transfer killed the animal, it would also kill the shooter. Tissue destruction is the killing mechanism, and if high energy loadings don't destroy enough tissue due to the shallow penetration of expanding bullets, it is pretty hard to understand how they kill better. Although I believe in carrying as much gun as possible, I would always rather carry a lesser caliber with a better bullet than a greater caliber with a lesser bullet. If a guy is firing a caliber that provides all the penetration necessary with expanding bullets, depending upon the size of the game, then expanding bullets are the best choice. However, expanding bullets from the handgun invariably produce shallow penetration, so I tend to be predisposed towards blunt non-expanding bullets when the game is heavy, like black bear. A good example of this is the PMC Starfire load for the 44 Magnum. In wet newspaper, this load only produces about 5-inches of penetration. This is the same amount of penetration produced by the tiny 22 rimfire from the handgun! Yet the power differnce is huge. By comparison, your 10MM loaded with hard-cast bullets can produce about 18-inches of penetration in wet newspaper. Calibers are defined by the bullets they push, and by selecting the right bullet for the job, most guns can greatly extend their performance. potential. I would recommend that if you are carry for protection from cats, that you load you 10MM with heavy expanding bullets, but if you are loading for defense from black bears that you load hard-cast bullets with as much meplat diameter as your gun will allow.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com (http://www.garrettcartridges.com)

[Art Eatman]

Randy's comments parallel those of Ross Seyfried, who's known for hunting great big things with handguns. Hard cast lead, big meplat...

:), Art

[Dr.Rob]

I usually carry a vaquero 44 mag full of winchester 240 grain soft points as a back up to my 30-06.. since my 06 doesn't have sights.. if you bust the scope you are out of luck. Also when we hunt the jack pines you can't get a rifle on target in a hurry.. so you sling it and use the pistol. 41 mag is the minimum caliber for big game (read deer elk antelope bear lion) in Colorado. I also keep a 12 guage with a slug barrel in the truck in case i bust my rifle or drop it off a cliff or what ever a 12 ga. slug will drop an elk.. but the other hunters sure do give you a funny look when you show up carrying a scattergun.

back to work,

Rob

[Dead]

I carry a Hi-Cap Semi-Auto 9mm as a back-up while hunting White-Tail in the mountains. Looking to get a 44mag for this season.

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Dead [Black Ops]