Thinking of buying a .45GAP

[thurn55]

I will soon buy a new pistol. My requirements for it are as such: 1) Polymer frame (Medium preferred, large is okay). 2) Something bigger than 9mm(Thinking of .45ACP or .45GAP. 3) Must have an equipment rail (for a tactical light). 4) Very reliable. 5) Great concealed weapon and tactical weapon. 6) Less than $600.

First two guns that came to mind were the Glock 37 and Springfield XD. Both pistols are in .45GAP. I currently own two Beretta's (92FS and 9000S) in 9x19mm and plan to go .45. I noticed the new Ruger P345, but not really interested (same with the Smith & Wesson SW99 .45ACP). Now, I have fairly large hands, but for some reason I enjoy smaller frames. Visually, the G37 looks more comfortable to hold. Plus, I enjoy the thin slide of the Glock's for concealed inside-the-waistband-carry. I know fairly little about the XD, but is it fairly concealable and should I trust the grip safety? Also, the lighter the better. I read that the G37 and XD are around 22oz. empty. Way better than my 34oz. 92-series. However, I don't want it so light that the recoil is harder on second shot acquisition.

I would appreciate the pros and cons of both pistols. Also, if you know another weapon that meets my qualifications, recommend it.

Thanks for your time.

[CraZkid]

I would trust the grip saftey of the XD more than I would trust the no saftey of the glock. YOu also might consider a SW99, my friend has a one in .45ACP that is real nice plus you can actualy find ACP for a reasonable price. The only complaint i have is SWs DAO trigger pull; staging:short and crisp, actual pull:long and smooth until the last millimeter and then hard as hell. Honestly, you think that you are at the trigger stop and on a loud range you can't tell if you have a fail to fire or not.

[Stiletto]

I was like "USP45!" up until you said under $600.

Oh well.

[thurn55]

I actually thought about a Heckler & Koch, but decided on the Beretta. Does the USP have 10 round magazine capacity with .45ACP? I know law enforcement mags are 12, aren't they? I still enjoy the USP Expert, but out of the price range. I still go to hkpro.com constantly to see pics. Also, I like the Kimber TLE II. If I had the money to blow, I'd hands down pick the Kimber. Mag capacity is a little smaller, weighs more than my 92-series, etc.

I checked out the SW99 .45ACP in Shooting Times Buyer's Guide and heard it failed-to-feed half-dozen times and wasn't very accurate (anywhere from 3.06in to 4.31in at 25-yards). Still love the shape though. Considered buying a 9mm version of the SW99 after my 92-series.

[Stiletto]

12-round USP45 mags are civvie legal now, unless you're somewhere where they're specifically banned by state law.

[Jim Watson]

A guy in one of my clubs has gone wild for GAP; he has a G37 and a G38 for all purposes. They seem to shoot quite well.
I prefer the XD's grip angle but the trigger is even tougher than a Glock's and I have not seen many people to shoot them well or stay with them.

Before you get a GAP, be sure of your ammo supply. I don't know if Walmart has WWB GAP, but you should know that or other sources before you buy.

[thurn55]

I'm still weighing my options on the GAP ammunition. I know that Speer has it. Wincester (my personal favorite) makes it also. I know the .45GAP has only been around a couple years. If I buy the Glock 37/38 or SA-XD and the GAP gets incontinued, oops... I guess than I'll trade it in for something. I do enjoy the GAP though and understand its purpose for smaller grips and higher capacity.

One requirement I lacked to mention was that the gun be ambidextrous. I'm left-handed and need something that I can use. The SA-XD has the ambidextrous magazine-catch, which is great, but I'm used to using my left middle finger to remove the magazine. Still getting used to the slide catch, though, on everything.

At my local gunshop:
- Springfield Armory XD .45GAP is $459.00+tax
- Glock 37 .45GAP is $509.00+tax

Still leaning toward the Glock 37...
Thanks for the input.

[fwcofficer]

I have shot the Glock 37 and I find it to be very pleasant to shoot. It has a small grip frame (G17 sized) and minimal recoil. I like the gun, I don't like the round. I don't trust the fact that the .45 GAP will ever become abundant like the .45ACP. I would hate to own a gun that I couldn't buy ammunition for. You may want to look into the Glock 21, although it is significantly bigger you can be sure to find ammo for it at walmart for years to come. I think of it this way, there are maybe 5 models of pistols chambered in .45GAP from 2 different manufacturers, as opposed to countless numbers of .45ACP from many manufacturers. I don't think .45ACP is going anywhere, but until more companies adopt GAP, I would look into its older and more abundant brother (ACP).
-Just my $0.02 less 50% discount

[tulsamal]

I'm very interested in an XD Tactical in .45 GAP. I haven't held or shot one yet but they sure look promising on paper. I actually do like Glocks in general but the strange "hybrid" aspect of the 37 turns me off. If it had been a true Glock 17 with a .45 GAP barrel, I would have bought it in a second. Hopefully the .45 GAP XD is going to deliver on the promise the cartridge is capable of delivering.

Something like this: http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976575550.htm

Gregg

[abelew]

The GAP is about the most superfulous cart. I have ever seen. It doesn't give more capacity (its the same .45 cal as .45 acp). It offers less velocity than the ACP, and it is not widely avaliable for cheap, or avaliable for any price. 45 acp is abundent. If you don't mind large frames, then why not 45 acp. If you are dead set on a xd, then buy a .40 (.40 has better ballistics than GAP, and in the same size frame, with higher capacity). So, what does the GAP bring to the table? I can't think of anything, can you?

[fwcofficer]

I thought the .45GAP had the same velocity as a +P ACP?

[JohnKSa]

It offers less velocity than the ACPThat's not true and you know it. Here's a quote by you in which you state that the performance is the same.45 gap is its shorter, has to have a higher pressure to get same performance as ACP http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156381
Every test that I've seen shows that .45 GAP velocities are IDENTICAL to .45ACP with the same bullet weights. As you mentioned, the GAP uses slightly higher pressures than the ACP to achieve identical performance. In a nutshell, the .45GAP provides .45ACP performance in a shorter package and does so by operating at .45ACP +P pressures.what does the GAP bring to the table?It allows a .45caliber gun to be built on a 9mm sized frame.

[Robert M Boren Sr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the gap orignally designed for the revolvers so that you could use the 45 in a revolver without the half moon clip?

[Jelly]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the gap originally designed for the revolvers so that you could use the 45 in a revolver without the half moon clip?

Actually...

It allows a .45caliber gun to be built on a 9mm sized frame.

[JohnKSa]

Jelly's right, the GAP also needs clips to operate in a revolver.

The GAP is to the ACP what the .40S&W is to the 10mm. Both the GAP and the .40 S&W were shortened versions of previous autopistol cartridges that were designed to be able to operate in a pistol with a 9mm sized frame.

There is one important difference between the two cartridges as mentioned above. The GAP ballistics are identical to ACP ballistics while the .40S&W performance is substantially degraded compared to the 10mm.

[Robert M Boren Sr]

Thanks for clearing that up, not that I would ever consider buying a 45 gap. I'm totally happy with my 45 and 44 mag desert eagle. My 45 auto is in the ruger p90dc series. Thanks again.

[thurn55]

After a little thinking and research, the .45GAP isn't very popular. Correct, I don't think it will ever amount to .45ACP status. Only a handful of companies make GAP, which isn't good. GAP ammo is more expensive, which isn't good. While looking into the Springfield XD in .40S&W, I realized I gain some rounds (12+1) compared to GAP. How many .45GAP's does a XD hold? I've read articles that say 8 rounds for the XD-45LE Tactical and Springfield's website has 9+1 for the entire line of .45GAP's. Also, please explain to me why the trigger pull of an XD is listed as 5.5lbs. to 7.7lbs. for the USA™ action trigger system? Is it adjustable?

Also, any preferences on tactical lights. Springfield makes their small one, but I like the Streamlight M3.

Thanks for the helpful comments

[Stiletto]

Actually, .40S&W was designed to be roughly equivalent to a popular (but relatively low-powered), standard 10mm load.

Kinda like .45GAP is roughly equivalent to a standard .45ACP load...but the smaller cartridge precludes any particularly powerful loads.

Just like you can't up-load a .40 to match a hot 10mm.

[tulsamal]

After a little thinking and research, the .45GAP isn't very popular. Correct, I don't think it will ever amount to .45ACP status. Only a handful of companies make GAP, which isn't good. GAP ammo is more expensive, which isn't good. While looking into the Springfield XD in .40S&W, I realized I gain some rounds (12+1) compared to GAP.

Well, we don't know! (That's the honest answer.) When .40 S&W was introduced, the 10mm people had little heart attacks and said it would never be as popular as 10mm. 10mm was the future. (At least those people had the higher performance on their side.) Now 10mm is still around and it is a fine round but .40 S&W is everywhere. It is the STANDARD for police use. I even own a couple myself. So will .45 GAP do that to .45 ACP? I'm willing to admit that it IS possible anyway. If ballistics are identical up to and including 230 grain bullets, then the .45 ACP user is just getting the same thing in a larger package. How is that an advantage? They do have history and tradition on their side and you can't sneer at that in the gun world. How else do you explain 38-40 or 45/70? I don't _know_ what will happen in the long run but I don't think .45 GAP is going to go away.

The ammo does cost more right now. But 10mm costs a LOT more than .40 S&W now. Does $20 per 500 really decide which gun/cartridge you are going to get? I can't walk into Wal-Mart and buy a box of GAP right now but that's true of a BUNCH of the guns I own. Can you buy 10mm at Wal-Mart? Would that be a valid reason not to own one? I don't think so!

Capacity is a true difference between .45 GAP and .40 S&W. The width of .45 GAP is the same as .45 ACP. So those fat little rounds are going to cut into your capacity. Up to you to decide if that matters. Somehow the 1911 people seem perfectly happy with 7 round magazines! Considering the fact that the primary reason to buy a .45 GAP is the size of the grip frame, I would prefer a simple single stack in mine, thanks. (That's what I wanted in the Glock 37. Just give me a total Glock 17 clone in every way except it uses a 7-8 round single stack magazine in .45 GAP and I'll be happy! But that's not how the G37 ended up. And that's why I don't own one.)

I _personally_ like to own lots and lots of "different" guns and calibers. So my personality type will lead me to get a GAP for myself one of these days. Just like I'm trying to get a .357 SIG barrel for my Glock 35. Or the way I really want a 1911 in 10mm. Practicality is the enemy of an interesting gun collection!!

Gregg

[overlordofwar]

thurn, I posted a thread not to long ago to see if anyone had experience with an XD 40. so far all the posts I've seen have been quite positive and supportive of the XD line. I haven't heard of an XD in 45 GAP but I also haven't looked at the Springfield website for a while now. However I'm planing on buying an XD 40 for myself in the near future. mainly becase I to want something bigger than a 9mm, but also because I've been told that there is a conversion that can change the barrel of an XD 40 to work with 357 SIG and another conversion to change to 9mm. Just make sure you get a good feel for both options before you buy. I've made the mistake of jumping on a purchase to soon before, and it sucks.

[fwcofficer]

I've made the mistake of jumping on a purchase to soon before, and it sucks.

+1, I've made that mistake once, and that will be the last time I jump into buying something without extensive research.

[Whiskey Tango]

After a little thinking and research, the .45GAP isn't very popular.

It's only recently been introduced, give it time to grow.

I for one think that it will be a hit in the long run. The GAP was designed to give .45ACP performance, in a shorter cartridge to enable a smaller frame, since most people dread carrying 1911s etc for the size, even on compact ones.

The .45GAP pretty much duplicates ACP terminal performance, so this is my opinion:

If you are looking for carry, hold off until more subcompact GAPs come around, Handgunner did a review on a compact Springfield Armory 1911 in GAP that should be out soon, or wait for a subcompact Glock.

If you want home defense, plinking, target shooting, I'd stick with a full size 45acp.

[Handy]

Kahr is coming out with a P45. Small grip, small gun. Much slimmer then the G37.

[overlordofwar]

I took a look at the Springfield Armory website shortly after I made my above post. I like the idea of being able to get a 45 XD, even if the 45 GAP ammo isn't terribly popular yet. however I do think it's popularity will grow as more people try it out and buy handguns that use it. Before i started looking at the XD line I was set on buying a Glock 21, but when I compared it to the XD i noticed that the XD fit my handmuch better. And thus I started leaning toward the 40 S&W XD, even though I really wanted the 45 cal. Maybe now i can get both, A 45 and gun that fits my hand best.

Thanks for posting this thread, otherwise I might not have known a 45 XD existed until after I bought the 40. Now I have more debating to do with myself.

40 S&W or 45 GAP........

Probably 45

[mete]

Actual street performance shows that the 40 and 45acp are equivalent .So get a .40, there are many guns available.The 40 is very popular but I'll bet the 45GAP never becomes popular.

[thurn55]

After all the research and "gun handling", I bought a Glock 37 in .45GAP. I held the XD45 Tactical, but it didn't feel right (to me) with the grip safety. It could of been something subconscious when I held it, but I kept having to force my grip to push the 'lever' in just to pull the trigger. My gun shop didn't have a G37 when I ordered it, but they did have a G17 and G38. The G38 was the perfect size, but the 8 round magazine turned me away. 10 round mags would fit into the G38, but they weren't flush with the bottom (which I don't like for concealed carry). I used the G17 just to compare the overall size of the G37. Also, I looked very hard at the G21 in .45ACP. The pistol was just slightly bigger than I thought it would be, but 13+1 rounds of potent .45 sounded great (and a little heavier). The G37 fits me perfectly. My Fobus holster, and two extra 10 round mags, are ordered. My M3 Tac Light fits beautifully and I've already put 50 rounds of Speer 200gr. TMJ .45GAP through the gun. For my first non-Beretta pistol, I'm pretty happy with my investment.

One last question, anyone know if the +2 .45 grip extensions fit on the G37 GAP mags? (I saw a picture in a magazine of what was described as a Glock 37, with grip extensions sticking out the bottom.)

Thank you for the opinions

[LAK]

So, what does the GAP bring to the table? I can't think of anything, can you?
A fully supported chamber?

[buzz_knox]

.45 GAP will be precisely as popular as a combination of manufacturer resolve and general acceptance make it. If we don't allow it to grow, it won't. If the manufacturers don't put some effort into it, it won't make it either.

[FirstFreedom]

I'm too late to help you not make a mistake, unfortunately, since you bought the 37. Under your criteria, I would have bought a G36 or Taurus PT145, since the gap will die, in all likelihood. Taurus has proven that there is no need for the gap round - feel the grip of the PT145 and you'll see what I mean. However, I'm sure you'll enjoy the gun for a number of years, so enjoy! In 10 or 20 years, if you still have it, you'll be reloading for it since factory ammo will be rare/expensive - that's my prediction.

[Davis]

The .45 GAP does not equate the ACP round, when pressure is considered. It is dishonest to say that the .45GAP is equal to the .45ACP. GAP can achieve ACP powers, but at higher pressure. You get p power at +p pressure. The best GAP does not equal the best ACP. The best GAP equals the normal ACP.

Davis

[Handy]

Davis,

Your post would only make sense if the pressure actually mattered. But in this case, it doesn't. Pressure only affects the chamber, breechface and locking lugs. Unless any of those items is not up to handling a pressure that is 10,000 psi less than 9mm, why should a modest increase in operating pressure be important?


Pressure DOES NOT have anything to do with recoil or frame battering. That is purely a question of reaction to the weight and velocity of the bullet - which is IDENTICAL between .45 ACP and GAP.



So please tell us how this trivial difference in operating pressures actually produces a meaningful difference in the actual use of the two cartridges?

[Davis]

Handy, you really don't like me, do you?

At identical pressure, the .45ACP is more powerful than the .45GAP. It really is that simple. What is wrong with noting that in a post? The best GAP is weaker than the best ACP. The best GAP is equal to the normal ACP. At the same pressure, the GAP is weaker than ACP. It is a fact.

Davis

[Davis]

I posted a correction, politely and without rancor or malice, regarding the differences in ACP and GAP, Handy. That is all I did. It need not be directly related to the post, but a clarification about a point made in the post. It happens all the time. You made a similar post below attacking me while making absolutely no comment about the subject.

Davis

[Handy]

Your post is misleading. Which is why I posted a correction to it, without rancor or malice. And I ended with an invitation to clarify your position.


At the same pressure, .45 GAP is operating at standard pressure, and .45 ACP is into the +P range. They aren't the same casings - one is designed for that higher pressure, one isn't.

At STANDARD operating pressures, the ballistics of the two are identical. If someone creates a +P version of GAP, that will also be identical to ACP +P ballistics.


Generally, one compares based on standards per cartridge, rather than pressures, since those are completely relative to the chambering.

[cheygriz]

The GAP will kill off the the ancient .45 ACP within 20 years. You can build a GAP in a gun that doesn't need to have wheels on it, and still have a big, slow pumpkin roller for those that are so inclined.

[abelew]

Ok, here's what I don't get. Tons of people love the acp for its large bullet...etc. Instead of makint it shorter, why didn't they just design a round that inceased the potency of the round? Take advantage of the improvements made in firearm production, and increase the normal operating pressure by producing a case and gun that could withstand it? You would logically be able to market it much easier, because many people would want the imcreased power, without any percieved loss caused by increased size of the pistol. Granted, you would still be toting around a gun that many would say needs training wheels, but i bet people would rather have the power, than the small size difference.

[Davis]

Handy, you are misleading. The standard operating pressure for the .45GAP is equal to the +P operating pressure of .45ACP. Therefore, the rounds do not compare equally. At equal pressures, the .45ACP is more powerful than the .45GAP. That is a simple fact. To achieve .45ACP performance, GAP as to equal +P ACP pressures. ACP, at +P pressure, is more powerful than GAP. It's simple. Why do you have a problem with that?

Some say the .308 was made to take advantage of the more efficient powders and thus the .30-06 was made obsolete. Yet, the .30-06 provides a greater range of power and can handle larger bullets. The best 30-06 beats the best .308. Now, the previous anecdote had nothing to do with pressure. But, the .30-06 thrives (and out sells .308) because it is more versatile. Sure, the .308 equalled military performance of the .30-06, more or less, but the .30-06 can do more and provide more variety. In the real world, there may not be much difference. A deer hit by a bullet from either rifle would not likely be able to tell the difference. Yet, whereas the .308 might be considered too light for Elk, the .30-06 can be perfectly at home on an Elk hunt.

The GAP, at equal pressure to the ACP, is weaker. The best GAP is equal to performance with only the standard ACP. The best ACP beats the best GAP. Again, simple.

Davis

[Davis]

As to GAP killing ACP, well, the shere number of firearms chambered in ACP will still be rolling along quite nicely in twenty years. Plus, those yet to be made, GAP will be a success if it matches the market share of ACP. It won't beat ACP any more than 9mm Mak has beaten .380.

Davis

[Ramcharger]

Unlike the .40 S&W the 45 GAP has no big military or LEO market to support it.
Unless alot of the law enfocement agencies suddenly switch to the 45 GAP like they did with the 40SW the only market will be civil market.
And even then the 40 Sw is still pretty expensive to plink target shoot.
.40 SW practice ammo is usually the SAME price as .357 mag or 45 ACP. Thats why I rarely shoot my .40 anymore.
So unless the 45 GAP is picked up by the military or a big LEO market it's just another "fashion" caliber like the .357 SIG.
Oh and I could just see all us 1911 die hards swapping our beloved .45 Automatic COLT Pistol for a 1911 chambered for a .45 GLOCK round :barf:
Might as well put a Furd 5.0 in my Cuda :cool:

[FirstFreedom]

The GAP will kill off the the ancient .45 ACP within 20 years. You can build a GAP in a gun that doesn't need to have wheels on it, and still have a big, slow pumpkin roller for those that are so inclined.

Ha. I predict quite the opposite. What you say WOULD be true if the premise upon which is it founded were true; however, that premise is untrue, that one needs a different round to make a smaller grip size .45 acp (one not requiring wheels) possible. Wilson KZ45 and Taurus have already done it, making the gap as useless as tits on a boar hog. Nothing inherently *wrong* with the gap round. It's just senseless to make a round that is *identical* to an existing one, for all intents and purposes, when the existing one is entrenched to the tune of almost 100 years of wild popularity, on the one single solitary premise that you can stick it in a friendlier-grip-sized-gun. You CAN stick it is such a gun, but you can ALSO, with modern technology, stick a .45 acp into a smaller-hand-friendly-gun, as Taurus and Wilson have *already* done. Pick up a 24/7 or PT145 and compare the feel of that grip to a Glock 9/40 - If anything, it feels better in my reprentative girly-man hands, than the Glock. It's only sheer laziness (perhaps better described as profit myopia or cheapness), that brought us the gap round, combined with a little Gaston ego. As a result, it is the gap which will be extinct in 20 years, since the truth foretold above will eventually be recognized, as innovators put out new and better pistols in .45 acp with smaller grips - the technology is there - it's just a matter of taking advantage of the technology by shelling out some short-term dough for the product research, testing, and tooling, to look for longer-term profits.

[Handy]

"Wheels on it"???

The cartridges are 1/8" different in OAL. Any brand new design can match the current GAP guns for size. GAP is built for convenience of the maker.


Davis,
GAP and ACP are different cartridges, like .38 Special and 9mm are. For the same pressure, .38 is also more powerful than 9mm. Is that an important factoid? Absolutely not, because we don't compare cartridges by pressure.

[Davis]

It is an important distinction in this case as GAP compares itself to ACP. I claims to be the equal of ACP. But wait, to be equal to ACP, it must generate +P pressures, as compared to ACP. As such, it is not equal to ACP. It seeks to establish that it can do everything ACP does, but in a smaller package. Yet that is not the case. It cannot do everything ACP does. I can repeat standard performance of the ACP in a smaller package, while generating increased pressure to achieve this. The GAP compares itselft to ACP (even now noting that it might even be more accurate than ACP based on the most recent published articles that are of course in no way related to a press release of any kind). Yet, to generate the same performance it must do so at higher pressure. At the same pressure as GAP, ACP performs better. It is a fact and it is a fact that is legitimately brought up, every bit as legitmate as the GAP's advantage in length. Can't use one but ignore the other.

Davis

[Handy]

But wait, to be equal to ACP, it must generate +P pressures, as compared to ACP. I'll explain this to you again. The standard pressure of GAP is higher than ACP, AND THAT IS OKAY.

Different cartridges work at different pressures. Higher pressures are not necessarily bad, in and of themselves. You're gripping about the difference between 21,000 psi and 23,000 psi, completely ignoring that most other cartridges operate at 35,000 or higher.


45 GAP is NOT a shortened 45 ACP case. It is a purpose built cartridge with its own pressure maximums and a case design to match. Comparing its operating pressures with 45 ACP doesn't make any sense; the only thing they have in common is the projectile.

So I'll repeat myself: By your logic, .38 Special is a "better" .356" cartridge than 9mm, since .38 produces more velocity for the same pressure. Since it isn't actually a better cartridge, maybe your logic is flawed?

[Davis]

No, it is not officially a shortened .45ACP. There were significant design differences such as the very slighlty rebated rim and strengthened brass, especially at the base. I'm not the idiot you seem so willing to make me out to be. How about this, at equal pressures, .45ACP is more powerful than .45GAP??? Or, perhaps, that .45GAP is a weaker round at the same pressure as ACP??? Or, look at it this way, the most powerful .45ACP is more powerful than the most powerful GAP. It is really a simple concept.

You cannot say that GAP equals the performance in a smaller package. It can equal it in a smaller package, but at the same operating pressures, ACP is more powerful. Or, another way to put it, GAP is incapable of reaching ACP performance without an increase of pressure as compared with ACP. Look, we can bandie this about for a while, but what I post is a simple fact. It isn't that hard to grasp.

Is GAP ACP? Nope. Is modern GAP designed to operate at a higher pressure than standard ACP? Yep. Does it take operating at higher pressure to match ACP operating at a lower pressure? Yep. Is the best GAP equal to the best ACP? Nope. Is the best GAP equal to the average, standard pressure ACP? You bet. These are not confusing concepts. They really aren't.

Davis

[Davis]

Did I say anything was wrong operating at the pressures that GAP operates? Not at all. Have I nodded to 40S&W? Not in this post. Why does it matter? The 40 does what at does at much higher pressure than ACP (and as such can and does cause the occaisional failure in some pistols with insufficiently supported chambers). That is beyond the purview of this topic, though.

The comparison is between GAP and ACP (and Glock versus 1911 commonly). Yet, GAP will likely work just fine in handguns. It will likely do what it is called to do. It is not ACP's equal no matter how you wish to slice it, dice it, or repackage it. The best ACP is better than the best GAP. At the exact same pressure, ACP is supperior to GAP.

Davis

[Handy]

Okay, so we've just established that your utterly arbitrary pressure hang up is the problem.

[Trip20]

This would be much simpler if you guys would exchange phone numbers. :D

[Davis]

No, I think we have established that what ever I post, where ever I post, you will find some fault, real or imagined. There is no hang up here, save for yours. Take off the blinders and look around. It can be difficult to be objective with them on.

Davis

[OBIWAN]

"Take off the blinders and look around. It can be difficult to be objective with them on."

Got a mirror....?

Takes two to tango :D

[mathman]

I liked the idea of the 45 GAP at first, but the grip size is not that big of an issue with me...

Plain and simple and without splitting hairs, the 45 ACP and the 45 GAP are ballistically equal...buy whatever you prefer.

However, I really, really do not see the 45 GAP overtaking the 45 ACP in popularity...not in 20 years...not in 100 years...call it tradition, stupidity or whatever, it is just not going to happen.

Whether it will fade away remains to be seen...

[cheygriz]

Yo guys!!!!!!!

C'mon! Let's all state our opinions as we see things, but let's also respect each other's opinions as well! These boards are supposed to be a little bit educational, and a whole lot of fun! We're all stating opinions here, and opinions are neither right nor wrong, they're opinions!

I think the GAP will kill the ACP. I might be wrong. Many of you think it won't. You might be wrong! One guy looks at pressure, another at case length, another at marketing! Everyone's opinion is interesting, even if I don't agree with it!

Heck, the FN Five seveN just might kill of the 9,MM, 10MM, .40 and both .45s! Not likely, but stranger things have happened!

Then again, phasers might replace ALL guns in 20 years! :D

[LAK]

I do not believe the slightly higher operating pressure of the GAP is an issue, mainly because that outside using a service pistol for the trail where it might be employed against certain four-legged beasts, there is no real practical advantage to hotrodding 230 grain .45 caliber bullets much above 850 fps. Sure they might penetrate some harder materials better, but there already exists an ideal step up in this regard in the 10mm. And one of the problems with the 10 has been that it is just alittle much for many shooters to handle. So the 230 at 850 (give or take) remains a well balanced combination.

I do not think the GAP spells the end of the .45 ACP. Too many guns already around, and too many fanatical followers.

Equally, I do not think that the GAP is a mere flash in the pan. GLOCK has too many fanatical followers, and in particular many on the institutional level. I can see the GLOCKGAP taking a sizeable market share from the .40 at some point. It may even catch on as a military piece - even if on a limited basis.

I would be sorely tempted to dig deep into my wallet for a FN/Browning High Power GAP.

[gudel]

so how much difference is gap compared to acp ammo?

[MTMilitiaman]

Okay, let's forego the pressure talk for a sec. It has been demonstrated that it is possible to safely acheive over 1000 fps with a 230 gr bullet in the .45 ACP in a service size auto without acheiving +P pressures. I know for a fact that my dad chronoed some handloads at 950 fps out of his Ruger P90 and that these loads have been shot in 3 different .45s and show no signs of excessive pressure, even when left out on the bench in 90+ degree heat. And Mike McNett has shown that it is possible to do even better and has done some amazing things with the .45 ACP, argueably more amazing that his loads for the 10mm Auto. So it is easily possible to load the .45 ACP beyond the capabilities of the GAP, even without going to +P pressures.

My opinion on the matter--if you're thinking of buying a .45 GAP, you're not really thinking. But then, I am more than a little biased on the matter. I honestly can't see how a few hundreths of an inch off the grip warrents a new cartridge. Whatever makes your wheels go round :rolleyes:

[LAK]

MTMilitiamanOkay, let's forego the pressure talk for a sec. It has been demonstrated that it is possible to safely acheive over 1000 fps with a 230 gr bullet in the .45 ACP in a service size auto without acheiving +P pressures.
I can buy that - maybe.

I know for a fact that my dad chronoed some handloads at 950 fps out of his Ruger P90 and that these loads have been shot in 3 different .45s and show no signs of excessive pressure, even when left out on the bench in 90+ degree heat.
Pressure signs? Like what pressure signs? My understanding is that the general warning signs of pressure will not show at the operating pressures of service handgun catridges. You need an electronic gauge to measure actual chamber pressures in a test barrel.

And Mike McNett has shown that it is possible to do even better and has done some amazing things with the .45 ACP, argueably more amazing that his loads for the 10mm Auto. So it is easily possible to load the .45 ACP beyond the capabilities of the GAP, even without going to +P pressures.
This I'll buy at face value. It is a general rule that, all other things being equal, larger diameter cased cartridges generally operate at lower pressures and will push heavier projectiles faster at these lower pressures.

My opinion on the matter--if you're thinking of buying a .45 GAP, you're not really thinking. But then, I am more than a little biased on the matter. I honestly can't see how a few hundreths of an inch off the grip warrents a new cartridge. Whatever makes your wheels go round
But if GAP ballistics are not just fine as they are, what does that say about the .45 ACP - before +p and other hotrodding came along?

It was still the .45 ACP standing on it's own merits as a service pistol cartridge. If the GAP produces similar ballistics who needs to hotrod it? Silhouette shooters? Hog hunters?

[Hal]

Just like you can't up-load a .40 to match a hot 10mm.
<Paging "Clark" to the TFL semi auto handgun forum.>

As an aside, the .40 S&W can actually be loaded quite a bit hotter than any 10 mm....

not that you'll find it in any factory box anytime soon..

Higher pressures are not necessarily bad, in and of themselves. You're gripping about the difference between 21,000 psi and 23,000 psi, Perspective my friend,,perspective. IIRC, you drive a whirrlybird for aliving and probably do a walk around (minimum) before every time you get behind the controls. OTOH,,I drive a car. Seldom if ever do I do a walk around before getting in and driving off to work. Your chopper probably gets regular maintainence according to a very strict schedule. My Honda gets semi regular maintainence at a fairly rigid schedule. OTOH,,millions of people lease a vehicle for 3 years/20K miles and never bother to change the oil.. :(

In the same line,, a 2K difference in working pressure,,in and of itself,, is a moot point. Where that ~10% increase becomes a factor is outside of the normal - worn springs, dirty gun,,dirty and unlubed gun,,ammunition which has been cycled throught the action multiple times (bullet setback) etc..

I should add that I have a very healthy respect for pressure and the damage (carnage) it can create. I saw a guy lose all of his fingers one day when an airless spray gun operating close to that 2Kpsi difference went off in his hand. I also saw a 20 gallon air compressor embed itself into a garage wall when a weld let go on the tank. It was "only" operating at 120 psi.

[Handy]

MT,

I guarantee those loads you're talking about where at or above SAAMI +P pressure ranges. +P does not mean overpressure, as in "signs of overpressure".


Hal,

Pressure limits on cartridges are peak instantaneous pressures, only experienced for a moment. That is why the somewhat common 9mm +P+ ammo can go an extra 3000 psi over 35,000, and not blow the gun up. For firearms, these low 20,000 peaks are very soft. (Comparing it to an aircompressor is more like comparing a modern .22 to a black powder cannon. Sure, the .22 has more pressure - but the cannon is definitely doing more damage. Size matters.)



It is wise to remember that while 23,000 is the GAP maximum, standard loads are running in the 20,000 to 22,000 psi range - or from inside to barely 1000 over ACP max. That's really nothing.

[carolinaflats]

So Handy, can .45 GAP be loaded at a higher pressure safely to increase performance to match .45ACP +P loads?

I think new rounds are a good thing. Every popular round was unpopular at one point. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, THEN DON'T BUY IT. A lot of people made or are making the same argument against the WSM and WSSM cartridges. .45GAP isn't meant to be better than or replace the .45ACP, it just was created to offer a different product that Glock thought would fit a niche(.45 projectile in a smaller package at similar velocities). Gun enthusiates seem to be very conservative in their opinions on new products. It's an automatic skepticism that it won't work. This may not be a bad viewpoint, but once a product is shown to do what it's supposed to you have to change your mind at some point. In my opinion .45 GAP, WSM, and WSSM cartidges have done that. They may not be "BETTER", but they fill a niche that shooters are looking for. Some .45ACP fans still say a 9mm and .40 S&W are underpowered and useless, but LE Agencies and the military seem to think differently, so do all the people who have invested THEIR money in buying guns and ammunition. People are not buying 45GAP, WSM, and WSSM guns because they are better than standard length chambering; they are buying them because they want a smaller package and possibly a little something different from the norm.
I guess my point is, just because you think something sucks, doesn't necessarily make it so. Don't discourage people from experimenting with a new product because you don't like it. Let them buy it, test it and help you get over your skepticism. Without innovation we would all still be shooting muskets or maybe even not shooting at all. :)

[Handy]

So Handy, can .45 GAP be loaded at a higher pressure safely to increase performance to match .45ACP +P loads? Two answers:

1. I have no idea. I don't do load development of that nature, and am technically unqualified to comment (as is everyone else, here). Pressure goes up in curve that is unpredicatable with rules of thumb.

2. Probably. The amount of force on the locking surfaces that .40 S&W generates due to pressure is MUCH greater than the .45s. You could raise pressure to 30,000 psi in either .45 and still not produce as much - so going to +P levels (like an extra 2000 psi or so) should provide little difficulty for the gun.

[auto45]

The main reason I don't think the Gap will kill the ACP is, I would guess, that the 1911 probably sells more guns in ACP than all the other brands combined, i.e. Glock, Sig, Smith, etc.

Shorter cases, in general, are not known to be AS reliable feeders in 5" 1911's. Most people think the 1911 is easy to hold and thin gripped as it is.
The GAP might be useful in a 3" if it's as reliable as an ACP in 5".
If not, it might still sell because of the grip reduction, but I think it would be relegated to "toy" status like other variations of the 1911. Double stack Gap would be fun.

Kahr used the ACP and I think that's a big "blow" to it's general acceptance. The perfect "type" of gun for the GAP...if you like "pocket rockets". Anyone "want" to shoot 50 rounds of hardball in a 18 oz gun?
I don't know about you, but I think the 9mm is a perfect round for all these types of guns that they are trying "stuff" bigger calibers in.

IMHO, two things that could propel the GAP into the mainstream would be the ARMY, in their new pistol system, adapting the GAP or thousands of 40 Glocks Kabooming in a single year. :)

Having said all that, if I had to shoot a Glock or XD ;) , in a caliber larger than 9mm, I'd go with the GAP over the 40.

[UH1-D Rotorhead]

....with everything said about the GAP, I am convinced ...Glock 38 tomorrow.;)

[novaDAK]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the gap orignally designed for the revolvers so that you could use the 45 in a revolver without the half moon clip?
You're thinking of .45 Auto Rim :)

[Kiel_Everett]

I love my XD-45 GAP. I just hate the price for ammo. The .45GAP gets a little pricey. Great firearm though. I have had no major problems with it. Very reliable pistol.

Hope this helps.

[SA1911A1/45]

45acp, don`t waste your money on expensive 45GAP ammo.

[varoadking]

Originally posted by Cheygriz

I think the GAP will kill the ACP.

Wonder if still thinks this?