Would you get involved?

[Metellus]

http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=10443&sid=30596&bw=hi

Watch the link first. Then imagaine yourself as one of the bystanders. What would you do if you had your CCW with you?

To sum it up a white guy was standing in the back of a long line at a what looks like a pizza parlor. Then a big black woman cuts in line and the white guy says to his fiance on the cell that he'll be a little longer since somebody just cut in line. The black woman gets angry and starts yelling. The manager tells her to get out and she then spits at the manager and yells for her boyfriend a big black guy on probation. The black guy then assults the white guy with a couple very powerful punches and keeps hitting him after the white guy goes out.

I'd actually do something. I'd yell at the big black guy to stop it and if he walked toward me I'd start shooting. It'd be hard to miss that guy. Although I was not 100% certain what started the incident I'd know that after the guy who was hit was not even moving there was no reason for the big black guy to keep pounding him and putting the unconscious man's life in danger.

The reason is a couple years ago I was being robbed at knife point on my throat once in the middle of a busy sidewalk. And several well dressed people walked by and did nothing not even call the cops. I distinctly remember a well dressed couple walk by and the woman saying "is that guy getting robbed" and the man saying "it is not our business let's keep going".

At the very least I would have hoped SOMEBODY would have called the cops on my behalf. At that moment I promised myself never to be one of those stunned bystanders who is "not involved".

[WaltherP99]

It really heats me up to see all those people just stand there. From a law standpoint tho', I am really not sure if it would be ok to pull a gun in that situation. IMO, as soon as the guy went to the floor I would pull. One punch, ok, ya made your point. After that I see it is a life and death situation that warrants a possible lethal force!!!

JMO

[chris in va]

That guy could easily have been killed from those punches. That was a HUGE guy.

I'm not gonna say anything until a few more guys post on this.

[froader]

You know ... there are some situations where it's hard to figure out who the bad guy is ... but this isn't one of them. Although the dude doing the punching was one BIG, MEAN SOB there were plenty of people there to intercede. It's just too bad we're all trained to be sheep and not resist as a group.

The bad part of CCW is that as bad as it hurts to get put on the flooer and punched and kicked and sent to the hospital, assuming they don't kill or maim you (which you never know until after it's over) it's generally better than a few years in jail if a jury doesn't see it your way. And it's not like the assailant didn't eventually get more time in the big house.

For me ... first I'd try to intercede with some words and trying to calm the situation down ... then if he lit into me I'd try to get away ... and if I couldn't AND I had an opportunity to do so (i.e. I'm not too dazed from the head shots or he doesn't have me wrapped up) I'd draw as a last resort.

But people in that state of mind are not raional or smart enough to back down, so if you draw you're probably going to shoot -- and if you don't shoot quick enough he may get your gun away and then you got a PISSED OFF, irrational mean SOB with your own gun.

I've always assumed that drawing and firing will be pretty much the same motion. If someone's within 8 feet of me and in that state of mind, I don't want to trust them to not get my gun away.

[WaltherP99]

I felt the pain from that first punch! The guy looked ok in his interview tho'.
That's why I always tell the ol' lady to keep her mouth shut (she can't stand the way people act and has a tendency to "speak her mind" in those types of situations!). She almost got me in a fight one night at Dick's Sporting Goods with her big mouth! :D This guy got pissed cause I "momentarily" entered the crosswalk with my car while he was entering the store. Well, he shook his head and mumble a bit and of course "bat ears" heard it (It was raining and rather than have my woman and 6 month old daughter "get wet" I pulled up to the door so we could load the baby and not have her get sick in the process) They get into a shouting match and decided to start cursing at her. SOOO, I had to open my mouth (no CCW at the time but I did have the 870 in the car cause I was hunting that day). We shouted back and forth and he continued to get closer but nothing came out of it (thank god). Just goes to show how "ignorant" some people can be!!!

[WaltherP99]

The bad part of CCW is that as bad as it hurts to get put on the flooer and punched and kicked and sent to the hospital, assuming they don't kill or maim you (which you never know until after it's over) it's generally better than a few years in jail if a jury doesn't see it your way. And it's not like the assailant didn't eventually get more time in the big house.

I think I may have read on this forum or another about a guy that was involved in a road rage incident. Guy came up to his car and whooped up on him (the guy getting whopped was armed at the time). He let the guy beat him for a little and the guy walked away. The guy doing the whooping than decided to go back to the truck for some more at which time he did draw his weapon. In the video, the victim attempted to leave (step 1). The suspect than followd to continue the whooping. Right there IMHO would call for at least a draw and stern warning. If he continues on, than shoot. I also have a feeling from the looks of the video that these people ma have been in a situation like this before!!!

[mikikanazawa]

You guys gotta see "The Boondock Saints." It's a movie about the indifference of good men being almost equal to the misdeeds of evil men.

[froader]

You guys gotta see "The Boondock Saints." It's a movie about the indifference of good men being almost equal to the misdeeds of evil men.

I've also heard it said ...

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

I've actually been saying that s**t for years, and if you ever hear me say it ... :D

But seriously ... in Colorado you need the same level of threat (life threatening) to brandish a weapon as to fire it. So if you've drawn it means you're in a situation where shooting is (hopefully) acceptable.

[riverkeeper]

Except for one overweight guy, the BG outweighs everyone else by 100 pounds, is violent and will aggressively and relentlessly attack without mercy. Seven smashes to the head on the victim!

Unless you have good company health care, a lot of sick leave and AFLC, jumping in here could ruin your life. Most of us haven’t been in or seen a fight like this in person and we can’t really see the severity of what is happening to the victim.

Generally you can but some states differ, I understand, on the extent to which you can protect someone else with deadly force. Later, the prosecutor or jury, based on the eyewitnesses, will tell you if deadly force was in order.

If you decide to go for it with a gun – MAYBE something like this – Yell to the BG and set up your ‘Fence’ and draw – “Stop Now .. You are killing the guy.”… ETC, hoping to stop or divert. This is not good stuff in a crowded room.

Or drop a chair on the guy’s head and try to run out.

Doubt the BG would’ve got 4 years wo the video – reminds me of the kids who almost beat a pizza guy to death with baseball bats around here 10 years ago and were sentenced to 12 mo (I recall) on an island with food and shelter provided – served about 3 or 4.

My wife has also written confrontational checks which she expects me to cash -- that's one of the reasons she does not carry.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
I don't think that any of us would disagree with how truly horrible a situation that was. Unfortunately situations like that tend to totally paralyze people with fear. I do not blame the people for not interveining because unless you had the skill and and the will to take the BG out , the BG would have taken you out. Somehow I do not see that thug sucumbing to pepper spray. Let us not forget about the girlfriend in this situation, she definately seems the type that would'nt hesitate to use a weapon on the person that would have rendered aid to the victim.
I all honesty if I would have been in that same line with my daughter and wife, my best and only course of action would have been able to phone the cops and give a good description of the assailnts.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
I just showed the clip to my co-workers and it sparked a very heated discussion amongst us. I still stand by my previous posts although I puts me in the minority of opinions.
A few people said here at work as well as on the board that they would reason or talk to th BG to difuse the situation. Well think about it this BG : on probation, sucker punched, almost killed a guy, with no provocation, over a pizza. News flash.... reasoning ain't going to work on this guy!!
There were people at work that said that they would take out a knee or something on the BG while he was distracted punching the victim.
Yeah them and Bruce Lee, the point is unless you are fluent in martial/combat arts you would have wound next to the other guy on the floor.
In reading the original question a lot of people said they would have drawn on the BG and blasted him if he continued to pose a threat. The only real problem I have with that is that in a crowed resturant, at close combat quarters,... Do you have a clean shot ? I'll probally be the subject of much ridicule but I think the question is valid. The BG came on the victim fast and hard, he did'nt even have time to put his guard up. If the BG now charges you will you be in position to shoot without hitting a bystander ?
It's easy to armchair quaterback this situation, but I feel the vast majority of thinking, rational,non-violent,non-carrying,non-martial/combat arts trained people would have reacted the same way if the situation were to happen again.

[Double Naught Spy]

Metellus, the scenario you suggest based on the footage doesn't jive. You have interjected the aspects of omnipotence and limited activity into the situation that nobody present at the time would have. As patrons in the store, nobody new that the woman would call in her boyfriend and that he was on probation. Also, while the beating did go down, nobody knew if this was the only action or part of some bigger event. No doubt as everyone in the room was fixated on the beating, another situation could have unfolded easily if the beating was meant as a distraction. The problem is, in the real world, you don't always have all the insight present at the time that hindsight gives you after the fact.

So you would have yelled at the guy and if he walked toward you then you would have shot him? Interesting. So if you would have been in a position between the bad guy and the door and the bad guy was attempting to leave as he did, then you would have shot him?

So why didn't the folks in the store help the downed customer? Simple. Beyond what was mentioned previously about being paralyzed with fear, none of the customers were anywhere near that guy's size. Plus, they were all individuals, no teams or partners present. None had any reason to believe that if they intervened that they would get help from anybody else and as such, they would run the risk of getting the crap beat out of them like the customer with the phone.

[froader]

You've got some great points, Zulu. If I was there with my family I probably would push them in a corner, get in front of them, and then just make sure I can give a good description to the cops.

BTW -- for the guy who got whupped -- it looks like it happened so fast and he was incapacitated so quickly that even if he'd been opening carrying in a quick draw holster he wouldn't have had a chance to get it out.

[Duxman]

Very disturbing Video. I guess because I am one of those trained in the martial arts (kickboxing since I was 13...) this BG might be strong, but he is pitifully slow. I would not draw my CC, I would forcefully tell him to stop, and he if did not then I would take out his knee, nose or a kidney shot. Can probably hit him six or seven before he could take a swing at me, which by the slow speed of his punches, could easily be evaded. (by a trained MA)

Meanwhile drawing in that situation with a crowd like that would be too dangerous.

[snacktrack]

Ok first off, my blood is BOILING!

I am glad you posted this, this is just unbelievable to me. This raises some really good questions because this is a situation that we are ALL most likely to be caught in someday. I in fact almost had this same scenario happen to me in a after hours food place in Philly. One guy started with my friend, and I came in and reasoned with him, I was like hey man, you want to go in front of us thats cool, but you will have to give me some of your fries cause Im starvin. He laughed and was like, you know what I like you dude, your friend is a punk though. This guy was just all talk.

That said, talking to this guy in the video would only make the situation worse. So your question what would I have done? I watched the video again, and from I can see they are blocking the door. Thats the first problem. Everyone should have gotten out of there, but it seems like they didnt have enough space to go by him.

I would have wished that I would have pepper spray on me, cause I would have definitely sprayed him. If I had my firearm...whoah, I would have to say I would not draw although I would be wanting to the whole time. I would not have yelled at the guy saying "get off him" cause that aint gonna do anything.

Man its tough, that guy was huge. I think that even if I pulled out my weapon and said stop punching him or I will shoot, he just would have kept punching him. Then what? If that was a girl being hit, as weird as my logic sounds, I would have drawn because I feel some inborn thing to protect women at all costs. Otherwise, I am sorry to say I would have just gone to the far corner and called 911 as someone else said.

[snacktrack]

This brings another point. In a potential fight. Say you are a regular sized guy like me. I am 5'8", 180 lbs. Im not skinny but Im also not a big guy with muscles. So, if you think you are about to get swung at by a big guy like this who you know will do some damage, what do you do? Do you wait for him to swing? And risk being knocked out?

Or do you draw and back away before he hits you? Its a very tough one. I mean Derius T is a big guy, and he diffused a similar situation at a McDonalds. You cant just draw your gun in a crowded McDonalds? Or can you? I mean, is pulling out your gun and squashing the threat worth the reprocussions?

You will definitely have the poilce called on you. Any of you LEO's out there have any advice?

I do notice one thing that guy did not prepare himself at all. I am sorry to say, but I see this happen in white vs black fights all the time, the white guy will sever eye contact and be submissive and look away. I definitely know NOT to do this. I would have backed away as soon as I sensed the threat to put as much space between me and him as possible. If he came at me while backing away while I am saying leave me alone or I will shoot. If I couldnt back away anymore, I would draw. And if he came at me to punch I would fire.

Im not in the business of fist fights anymore. I have gotten in plenty of them when I was younger. There is just too many variables, too much risk or serious injury.

I mean, how do you know you will just get a punch that gives you a bruise, and you will be just fine in a couple days. You dont know.

[cls12vg30]

The smartest response would depend upon the CCW and self-defense laws of your state, buy my personal feeling is that when I made the decision to start carrying, I took personal responsibility for not only my own safety, but that of my neighbors, and those innocents around me.
If I had seen this altercation from the beginning, I would absolutely draw my weapon and command the attacker to stop. My state's defense laws authorize the use of deadly force (including a draw) to prevent death, serious injury, or sexual assault (glad they put that in there) to ones self or another person.

The possible responses by the attacker are 1)to desist, 2)to continue the beating (unlikely, hard to ignore a drawn firearm, assuming he wasn't hopped up on something), or 3) to turn and attack me, at which point he would be shot to ground, so long as there is a clear field of fire.

I'll be damned if I'm going to just stand by and let a fellow citizen be killed or permanently injured by a thug, when I have the power to help, simply to avoid potential legal troubles for myself.

"Man hath not greater love than this, when a man lays down his life for his friends."

[BreacherUp!]

Damn right I would have got involved! The guy getting sucker punched is one thing, getting beat down while those jokers stand 2' away watching it as if they had a ticket is utter nonsense. If you're asking what I would've done: I would've tried my damnest to take that guy down (as someone mentioned: strikes to vital organs). I think the problem is many people see themselves as the guy getting beat on, instead having the mindset that YOU are going to put that BG guy down. Yeah, you may take some licks. So what. If you were that poor schmuck getting his teeth fed to him, woudn't you want someone to do something? As was stated, indifference is the worst crime of all that day. And if you were CCW, with a guy that size who has already demonstrated his propensity for violence, I believe you would have a strong legal argument for shooting him.

[tom650604]

I would pull my .45acp 1911 on him and tell him to stop and lay on the floor. Then have the pizza counter guy call 911. If the BG make a flinch at coming for me "BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM". One less BG to worry about in this world. :D

However, if everyone in the pizza shop had a peice then all would pull out there peicees and the fighting stops immediatly. :D

[USP45usp]

I blame the governments (fed and states) for what is happening now. People are afraid to get involved because they very well could be the ones going to jail, along with this guy, and being put into the same detaintion(sp) cell.

But, I would like to believe that I would only be stuck with fear for a split second and then would have tried to help. I am 6' tall and about 150lbs. So, I am that weakling on the beach getting sand kicked in my face.

Someone like that BG should have been in jail until he either had passed all types of anger management classes or been medicated to control his tendencies.

[reildeal]

After the 1st punch, I would have been on the guy that was throwing punches. I have been in similar situations before, and I refuse to just stand there and watch someone take a beating like that. I am all of 5'11" and 180 lbs(solid muscular build). The big guy outweighed me by a good bit, but to just stand there and watch is assanine and intolerable. Shooting him is one thing, getting physically involved in another. I feel confident that I could hold my own in a situation like this, and If I couldn't, then I would hope that there were more people like myself standing around. The same principle of invoked fear applies here as did on the planes that hit the Twin Towers. Few aggressors can keep many locked into a passive state by the invocation of fear. People tend to have the mindset of "at least it isn't me", when in reality it is. It is that mindframe that perpetuates and feeds this aggressive behavior.

[1911SFOREVER]

1) I would have gotten involved.
2) I carry 2oz of Fox 5.3. In that environment, everyone would have gotten contaminated, but that attack had to be stopped. He could have easily killed that guy.
3) If the OC didn't stop him, and that guy is a moose and probably a hardened career criminal who was certainly in a rage, then it probably would have gone to extreme close quarters and a blade. There were too many people around and that situation was too fluid to go to guns.

[progunner1957]

It is obvious from the way the victim's head flies back from the force of the first punch that all the subsequent punches are fully capable of maiming or killing him. It is also obvious that the attacker is in a blind rage, waaaay beyond being reasoned with.

If I were there, I would have yelled "STOP!" one time and then went for the attacker's eyes with my pepper spray, which would be in my left hand; my SIG P220 would have been in my right hand, just in case. If he dropped and started screaming, would have high-tailed it out of there. I'm sure that his "woman" would have to be sprayed too, given her belligierent attitude.

That having been said, I would have probably been the one under attack - when the "woman" cut in line, I would have politely buy firmly informed her that the line begins to the rear and that she needs to wait her turn like everyone else.

It is disgustingly evident from watching the video that our culture has produced a herd of impotent, neutered, no-load sheeple wearing pants and masquerading as men. The males in the video do not have the will or the means to stop the thug from beating the victim half to death.

I am not advocating going toe-to toe with someone who can kill you with his bare hands; I am advocating being always armed so that when faced with such a situation, you can do something about it. And I'm advocating alwats carrying pepper spray as well as your defensive handgun so that you have an intermediate option before bringing to bear deadly force.

Also, the 400+ pound thug is a ringing endorsement of carrying a BIG BORE defensive arm; I would not want to fire on that behemoth with anything smaller than .45ACP, 10mm, or .45 "Long" Colt or .44 Special +P!! Little guns are okay for little thugs, but we don't get to choose our attackers!

[mvpel]

Aside from pepper spray, there's also the intermediate option of threatening deadly force. I'm sure we all know that 98% of successful defensive gun uses don't involve actually firing the gun or killing the attacker.

And deadly defensive force was certainly justified in this case, as others have observed. It was obvious that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm at the very least, if not death.

[1911SFOREVER]

That guy is a career criminal that was on a beat down rampage. He wouldn't have hesitated long enough to consider a threat, provided that he heard/saw it.

[snacktrack]

I think that it sucks that you have to know as much as an attorney before you can act on something like this...

Hmm, hold on while I ponder this area's laws, and then let me make a decision.

No doubt everyone on here knows that its the right thing to get involved. But what if this animal didnt stop punching and you did shoot him?

IS the guy who you are saving going to pay your 40,000 attorney bill, pay for your lost wages, take back all the time spent at trial, not to mention if you are found guilty.

I think all those guys were thinking, man that guy is going to do the same thing to me if I get involved. Yeah we all have firearms that could potentially diffuse a situation like this, but all these guy didnt. Yes if they had all joined together, they could have easily beaten that guy down. But that guy came from outside out of nowhere, who is to say all his friends arent outside.

If I was a big guy and didnt think a punch from him would do much to me, I definitely would have jumped in, unfortunately Im not a big guy like that. Neither were any of the other guys in there.

The good thing is, most of you guys have some pretty good ideas and have thought this scenario through, so that IF we had been one of those bystanders, we could do what we think is the smartest. Obviosuly most people dont prepare for these sorts of encounters.

[NSO_w/_SIG]

I would have to help that guy out. Hopefully others would follow my lead because although I feel I can handle myself I don't want to take on Shug Knight. I just really getted pissed seeing this,....... working at places like that as a teenager I came to have very little tolerance for rude, arogant people and I've seen situations like this arise before, although not this bad.

At one of my jobs women just like that one there have come in a started demanding stuff and cursing in front of other customers and children, sometimes there own. I don't know how it is where the rest of you live but living relatively close to D.C., I am fed up with having to deal with this kind of stuff. I don't put up with any sh** like that, like some others around here do, I refuse to let em walk all over me.

[reildeal]

Here is the almighty question. If it was YOU getting beaten, would you want someone to help? If your answer to that question is yes, and you would still be one of the people standing there watching, then I think it's sad. Lethal force would not have been my option at this point, but I sure would have put my butt on the line to try and help someone that would possibly have their life taken. I believe that all the firefighters, police officers, and military personel would agree with that. But then again, sacrifice is nothing new to these people, and we all take it for granted, just like those pitiful people watching another human being take blow after blow to his face and get dragged around on the floor. Pitiful.

Standing around watching makes you just as helpless as the guy getting beaten, and when you're helpless, you may as well be the next victim.

[Troponin]

I just watched this on a powerlifting forum that I visit, We all agreed that 90% of people would not have intervened. Society is weak, even in large numbers.

Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit. Maybe a TFSP or some sort of Glazer type round would have been best in that situation, maybe even a low velocity ball ammo. But, who carries those other than gangstas and troops in war?

That guy is def bigger than me. I know for a fact that I would have intervenedm, as I have done it in the past. But, if I would have jumped in and no one else, I may have been beaten pretty badly too.

[reildeal]

Getting beaten is a risk I am willing to take versus having to try to sleep at night knowing that watched a man take the brunt of this violent assault. I am not a cow in a herd watching us get slaughtered 1 by 1.


Oh, and I am in no way a Michael Moore fan, in fact I detest his work, but in reference to the question from "Bowling for Colombine" on why America has more violent crimes and homicides than the rest of the world, It may be worth considering our attitude of indifference.

[USP45usp]

Here is the almighty question. If it was YOU getting beaten, would you want someone to help?

and

Getting beaten is a risk I am willing to take versus having to try to sleep at night knowing that watched a man take the brunt of this violent assault.

Words to make one think. Ones that I agree with (sometimes, simple statements makes a person think even more).

[Duxman]

Quoting Bartlett: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Sure doing something can lead to many bad things, getting beaten up for your efforts, a lawsuit or two, etc.

But its the right thing to do. And doing the right thing is not always the easy way out.

[mvpel]

Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit.

Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired.

All it might have taken to save the victim six vicious and potentially deadly blows to the head could have been a draw, sight alignment, and a very loud "DON'T MOVE!!!"

As for hitting other people in the shop, you'd like to think that the cows standing around chewing their cud while this beating was going on would be smart enough to hit the deck when the Glock 30 cleared leather, but in any case it would be incumbent on the armed defender to ensure a clear backstop if at all possible. Perhaps dropping to a knee for an upward trajectory?

It seems to me that after the first blow, given the disparity of force evident in the situation, that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm or death, and that's the criteria for use of deadly defensive force.

[Para Bellum]

have drawn and helped the guy. In my country, firing at the attacker would be legally ok. And I don't think that in any other juristiction you would be obliged to fight that bastard with your bare hands...

If the environement would allow for it, I would immediately fire a warning-shot before I talk to Mr. bad guy. A Fridge or stacks of cans etc would be a good bullet-catcher for that purpose. The blast sometimes helps clear a mind.

If no safe bullet-catcher would be availiable, I would say that a shot at the bad guy would be ok. If I had the guts for it - I honestly don't know. I once pulled to help others and it worked. No shots fired that time.

[1911SFOREVER]

"Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired."

Given the state of that felon's mind during this attack, I think this would have been a 2% situation. You probably could have been screaming your head off, and in that perp's rage he wouldn't have heard you. He was largely fixated on the guy he was pummeling.

Pepper spray and then blade would have been my choice.

[Troponin]

Remember guys, this is def a CQB situation. The perp is within 2 foot of you. All he needs to o is reach out and grab the gun. I say don't even yell. If he looks and remotely made a move, shoot.

[U.F.O.]

I don't agree with the warning shot idea. It comes from the same mental camp as shooting to wound. The obvious problem with a warning shot would be a ricochet harming an innocent bystander. If you're justified in using lethal force, you should (IMO) use lethal force and leave the theatrics to the movie people. That video clip was a wonderful example of why you should carry OC. It at least gives you a step between harsh language and lethal force.

U.F.O.

[BillCA]

We'll get to the truly insulting part in a moment...

Unfortunately for most of the video it looks like "Jabba the hut" and his victim were blocking the doorway. Towards the tail end, "Jabba" appears to get back in line like no big deal happened.

Supposing one could get out the door without becoming victim #2, as you exit, you make a comment like "You stupid coward!" (or a more insulting comment) and proceed to step "lively", away from the door. When Jabba comes after you, draw your .45 ACP and proceed to put 5 center of mass. Explanation is very simple. You were legally armed, the BG was "beating a man to death", the close quarters of the shop precluded the use of a firearm, his size and weight indicated a high probability of needing multiple hits from a distance, so you lured him outside away from "innocent sheeple ..er ..bystanders" to stop his agression. You didn't run because he was in a "violent rage" and would likely injure another person or return to kill victim #1.

The really insulting part of this whole clip are the so-called "anchors" of the news. They express their horror that no one did anything, yet it is their profession and THEY THEMSELVES are at least partially to blame.

How many news reports have you seen where the media repeats the old socialist drumbeat "don't get involved, just call 911"? How many reports have you heard the media regurgitate the line "Having a gun just makes things worse" or "don't take the law into your own hands"?

And these two dolts have the audacity to be "shocked" that no one has done anything? Besides "Jabba the Blut" outweighing any TWO people in the shop, he obviously doesn't care about the consequences of hurting someone. The society the media has moulded is doing what the media has drummed into their heads over the last 30 years -- be passive, don't resist, just call 911! Meanwhile a man may die or be disabled for life.

Prosecutors who would zealously go after a CHL holder for luring the BG outside and then shooting him also are to blame. They are the type that would "twist" the situation to claim "you caused the threat to your own life by making him chase after you, knowing you were armed and could kill him at your whim". DA's like these we don't need. Nor the police chiefs who support them or the politicians who endorse them.

Okay... <deep breath> -- rant off!

[Para Bellum]

i don't want to hijack this excellent thread so I started an extra thread on warning shots:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1494777#post1494777

the old socialist drumbeat "don't get involved, just call 911"?
that must be US-Socialist. In Austria (Europe) where I live, it's even legal to shoot a rubber running away with you valuable or a carjacker driving away with your car in the back, and that's good. Our criminal code by the way was drafted during a social democrat governing period...

[chris in va]

it's even legal to shoot a rubber running away with you valuable

:D :p I'm sorry man, know it was a misspelling but the visual image cracked me up.

[Troponin]

Para, if I am correct, in Texas it is legal to use lethal force to protect property .

BTW, where is Europe are you. I didn't think guns were allowed to be carried by many places in Europe.

[Bullrock]

I read all of the postings before I watched the film. After watching the film, and not in hindsite, I'll tell you, I don't know! Maybe! If I was the same age as that guy in the white shirt who appears to be right on top of the action, I may have taken a punch from behind for no other reason than distract him, and hope that others would step in.

Or maybe a choke hold from behind, if he broke it then run like hell, if he chases me, he won't catch me and if he does, then I use my pistol.

Fact is I don't know, and in my opinion no one really does until things like that happen, and we're put to the test. Another fact is, I can't run anymore, so I don't know.

[Metellus]

Ironically a coworker of mine during lunch saw this video on cnn.com and a bunch of my coworkers ("CW") were returning from lunch and he them (3 women and 3 men).

Me: So would you be like the bystanders and do nothing?

CW: We'd call the police after the assailant left.

Me: Well what if the assailint decided to start stomping on the victim's head which could easily cause death.

CW: Well what if it was a robbery!

Me: Even more reason to help out if it was a clear cut robbery!

CW: I mean what if the guy was armed like with a gun!

Me: Then shoot him first.

CW: Not all of us want to carry a gun.

Me: Well who has pepperspray?

Turns out all the women had pepperspray but none of the men.

CW: But I'm not sure how to use it.

Me: You never even test fired your pepperspray how'd you know it'd work?

CW: Well I'd use it only in emergencies so never thought of testing it out.

Me: OK a big angry guy is beating to death an uncoscious innocent victim and you don't think that's an emergency?

CW: I just don't think any of us would know what to do so we'd just call the cops after the assailant left.

Me: Why after the assailant left?

CW [looks at me in disbelief]: So I won't get attacked while calling the cops of course!

Conclusion:

I was the only person other than my boss (who is an avid hunter and former wrestler) that seemed to agree that even if the innocent victim was being stomped to death the proper course of action is to wait until the bad guy is gone then call the cops.

My coworkers are a bunch of accountants, financial analysts, and lawyers professions which are not known for physical bravery but probably have the typical attitude of an average american.

No wonder terrorists who worked and schooled with average americans thought they could get away with scaring us out of our national interets. The average american will not fight for fellow americans. For thousands of years people have been responsible for their own physical safety yet today the average american relies on strangers who make $20k to $30k a year (cops and soldiers) for their own physical safety.

Talking to my coworkers was a disheartening experience.

The hard question are:

1) If you were innocent and being beat on would you want other people to help? If you answered yes but were unwilling to help then what does that say about you?

2) Sure you aren't GOD and you don't know all the details but what if you were an off duty cop? Would you draw to try to diffuse the situation? Cops don't know ALL the details either. Sure most of us aren't cops but why rely on cops in a situation that appears to you and most reasonable people that the innocent man's life is in danger. What you know at that time is what you will be judged on that after the fact. And at the time of the incident it appeared very likely that the victim was innocent and in danger of severe bodily injury.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
While I have no doubt that a lot of people would have interveined with little to no hesitation, most people would have still stood there in awe. Most people do not have the training or expirence to deal with that type of situation. Unfortunately we also live in a society where defending yourself can get you in a whole lot of legal trouble as well. Picture this: when the cops arrive on this situation and maybe they witness 4 or 5 white guys fighting 1 black guy, there's a good chance that everyone involved ends up spending the night in jail. In my heart I believe most people want to do the right thing, but how many people are willing to go to jail or deal with the legal drama over the principle. From my own example if I were to go to jail there's a STRONG possibility of me losing my job i.e.( my family's source of income). Is it worth the risk?
Another thing to consider let's assume that you were able to draw on and stop the BG,( lets call him Clyde). While you are focused on Clyde and the victim, the person whom started the whole incident (call her Bonnie) has now drawn on and fired upon you. I think everone that has posted on this thread would agree that Bonnie would definately start a whole lot of [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] if someone were messing with "her man" or "her baby's daddy".
I totally applaud and respect those that posted they could not stand by and watch the victim get beat without doing something. I just feel that in the 20 or 30 seconds the actual event took place, most people are incapable of formulating and executing a plan that went beyond dialling 911 on the phone.

[Troponin]

I just feel that in the 20 or 30 seconds the actual event took place, most people are incapable of formulating and executing a plan that went beyond dialling 911 on the phone.

That is very true. The event did not last more than 30 seconds. How long would it take to think this through. 1. You need to realize that someone is getting beaten. 2. You need to realize that the man's life is then in danger. 3. Then you need to decide if you should use your gun and then when you do decide, will you warn him or shoot immediately. Not to mention, he was moving around quite a bit, would you even have a shot? 4. You choose not to use the gun, you begin to wrestle with the guy. Hope he doesn't see the gun or get ahold of it.

Lots of things to think about. Hell, you could finally make a choice of how to help and the guy is already leaving.

[Derius_T]

There was another thread about this somewhere, but I'll say it here too.

No matter how big you are, or how big he is, someone should have done something. I don't care if I ended up getting beat like the guy. I am a man, and I will not stand idly by and watch someones life be potentialy taken.

Could I even live with myself if I had stood there like a coward and done nothing? This nation has turned into a bunch of pacifistic panseys. When I was growing up, you did what you could to avoid trouble, but as men and american citizens we should have enough guts to do what is right, damn the consequences. It makes me want to puke to see those people stand there and watch that. Its discusting. Its deplorable. Its just plain sick.

I remember a somewhat similar situation when I has 13-14 years old. Me and a buddy were fishing. Two bigger guys, about 16-17 came down, and started getting stupid. Told us to give them all our fishing stuff or they were gonna drown us or something. Of course, I refused, and they came towards me. I whipped the crap out of one of them with my fishing pole. (God I still hope it hurt) and then proceeded to get the ever loving crap kicked out of me. They beat me for what seemed like forever, busted me up real good, then took all our stuff and left. My buddy just stood there (like those people in the pizza place) the WHOLE TIME. Well, needless to say, when I finally got gathered up and to my feet, when he came over to ask if I was okay, I blasted him in the mouth with all my might, for being such a stupid sissy and not helping me.....

[vaportrail]

Wow, that video is unbelievable, it's hard to say what you could do when things happen that fast, but I always carry a little West German spring type telescoping police baton in my back pocket when I am legally carrying my Glock 33, just in case of a situation where deadly force isn't called for but I have the need to defend myself. I think if I was quick enough, that big fellow would have been picking his teeth off the floor and had a few lacerations to be stitched up, not to mention welts all over his massive body.

[abelew]

Just a thought. I don't know how other states CCW laws are, but here in FL, its a CCW (concealed carry weapon permit), so you can carry an asp, etc legally. I would carry a gun, but I would also carry an asp. Just hit him really good on his knee, and it will shatter, that guy wont be up and movin any more. If he kept at it, just take more easy shots. You may not think that an ASP is a great weapon, but it gives you an alternative to shooting someone (which in the PR world looks bad, even if its a good shoot). Hell, if you felt like it, knock him upside the head (will cause death/unconciousness) if you don't feel comfortable with a different take down. Using one of those also won't introduce a firearm into the equation, which would be good. Some people are immune to the effects of mace, but not to broken bones, they all act the same. ASP's (extendable baton) are vicious little buggars, but I think worth heir weight in gold in certian situations (close combat v. distance)

[zulustyle]

Howdy
D. T. I respect your opinion and do not doubt your sincerity. However consider this : lets say you have'nt been in a fight in over 10 years, this thug ape probally fights often and he is not alone. Would you be willing to walk into a situation that you can't win. Rest assured the second you jumped on this guy regardless of your fighting abilities or size this guy ain't alone, actually he has someone who cares for him which REALLY works to his advantage and makes the situation even more dangerous.
I think the responses to this thread would have been different if the victim was a spouse,child or friend and you were there with them. I think the responses would have been diffrent if a person was there with 3 or 4 of their friends,co-workers, or brothers/sisters in arms. Keep in mind that after the first punch from the BG the victim could not defend himself much less help you out when you jumped in. I feel that my response at the age of 25 vice 35 would have been different as well.
I am fully aware of the right and wrong of this situation,however right and wrong compared to the consequences of me being laid out, f'd-up,killed, or incarserated when I am the sole provider of my family weigh HEAVILY on my reaction to the situation.... that's a lot to consider in 30 seconds.

[snacktrack]

I do want to point something out...

THis guy did nothing to protect his own self. He wasnt knocked out on the first few punches. He did not try and fight back AT ALL. He did nothing. I could see if he was knocked out on the first punch. He should at least tried to run. He just stood there and let the guy hit him.

Now if he had no will to fight for his own self, how can he sit there and say..."All those people there, and they did nothing"

If he had been standing in a different spot he would have been one of those sheep not doing a damn thing.

Even though Im not a big guy I would punch and kick as hard as I could at his throat, genitals, and try and run. THis guy should be pissed at himself for not being prepared.

[Troponin]

snacktrack, watch the video again. He actually goes for the door to run after the first punch but was hit again.

Have you ever been punch that hard before? I have been punch by a middle weight boxer when I was 17 years old. I must have "looked at him wrong" and he came over when I wasn't looking and punched me. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I learned why it hurt so bad. I was seeing stars and not thinking straight. Fight back? I couldn't see anything, let alone know where to swing. Took a good minute before I could see straight. Yes, it was at a Taco Bell, full of people staring at me. The worst thing was I was with two of my best friends who did nothing too.

[snacktrack]

yes i did.

you watch it again. First of all, it wasnt a sucker punch. He confronts him, and if you atch closely, he looks down to take the ear piece out of his ear for his cell phone. THe second he looks down, he gets hit. Why would the HELL would you look away if someone is about to punch you?

He is not incapacitated. He starts getting back up several times afer being hit. He could have punched back, he didnt.

I know my comments are kind of callous, but watch the video again. You have to be able to fight back. He did not fight back AT ALL. So he could not expected others to do what he was a coward to do himself.

I do believe peole should have gotten involved, but obviously nobody was prepared or thought they could have diffused the situation. I think OC spray would have been a perfect for this situation, and when he grabbed his eyes, I would have hit him with a chair. Im sorry but I would not have swung at the guy. I would have defended myself, but I am not putting my life in danger foolishly.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
Snacktrack ,personally I think after the victim was hit the first time he was nothing more than walking wounded. While he may have not been knocked out he was knocked senseless. Keep in mind he was sucker punched. I have witnessed many fights growing up and in the service, often times the fight was won by that all important first punch. It's really hard to defend yourself when you are dazzed. While from a legal standpoint I would probally be in the wrong, if I HAD to engage a bigger and stronger opponent I would defnately get the first punch in.
Also this was'nt a fight, this was a beat-down pure and simple.

[snacktrack]

Hey Zulu,

Yeah I think maybe he couldnt think straight, only he could honestly answer that. His big mistake was being submissive and looking down. You are right that first hit is what did him in, cause from that point he felt helpless. He turned a fight into a beatdown by not being prepared for that first punch and looking away.

Being a smaller guy, I would have to get the first punch in to be able to win a fight, which I have done many times. I am not in the business of proving myself anymore against opponents. I have been very lucky. I have only had a true sucker punch once, and I wasnt hurt at all.

I dont know, this guy really made alot of mistakes. By no means did he deserve what happened, and animals like this make me sick. I deal with people like this everyday at my work. Drug dealers, etc etc. I stand up to them, I dont let them think they are intimidating me, and I ALWAYS watch their hands and be aware of the situation at all times. I have had several times where I have had animals like this try to start a fight and I told them to get the f*ck out, even though they could have won the fight. But I have the advantage of being at work in my own element. On the street is a different story.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
Snacktrack you are absolutley correct in the fact that the victim had a total lack of situational awareness. As soon as "Bonnie" started causing a scene EVERY customer in the resturant should have been on guard. As soon as "Clyde" approached him in an agressive manner he should have either ran or taken a defensive stance(personally I would'nt have faulted him for either).
It's kinda of Ironic but as in driving sometimes it is necessary get of the freaking phone and pay attention.
I don't know that if the guy had been watching his P's & Q's if it would have made a differece but he would have had a better chance.
Keep in mind we currently live in a society where a 7th grader can get suspended for 10 days for having a rubberband (Drudge report headline as of now). It's little wonder as to why people fail in the abilty to recognize and react to a truly violent situation

[kennybs plbg]

pulling a firearm would have never been a option, going in throwing fists wouldn't either until he attacked you. the guy needed to be stopped and tied up at that point. jump on his back tie up an arm etc. no one even tried. Its sad. People say they needed time to think, in my opinion a real man would have just acted on instinct.

kenny b

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
OK I'll bite, what is your definition of a real man ?
Part of instinct is knowing when to fight or when to run. Its pretty instinctive to avoid dangerous situations all together. Its pretty instinctive to protect your family,friends, and children. It is just as easy to argue that to attack a bigger stronger advesary goes against instinct. A "real man's" instinct could have easily made him extinct with 2 thugs to worry about.

[Metellus]

There was another thread about OC/CN spray of being useless if you carry a handgun. Logic was that the only times you could jusitfy using OC/CN was the same as handguns therefore just use the handgun.

This situation is a perfect example of when escalation of force would be a useful tactic for civilians as much as it is for cops. It is not like the man suddenly out of the blue started hitting the man with no warning. When the woman starts screaming and spitting I think most of us in here would start putting the OC/CN in palm, stepping back from the entrance to create space, getting ready to draw a handgun, and scope out a possible exit. She's yelling for like 25 seconds before her boyfriend showed up. And her boyfriend is yelling at the man for 5 seconds before he actually hits the victim.

So you got 30 seconds to PREPARE if you were a bystander and properly equipped. And once the BG started throwing his fists out comes the OC/CN in the left hand. Most likely that would have ended it. If OC fails and the BG starts rushing you and you have no way to escape then time to shoot. In court you just need to convince 1/12 of the jury that you used proper escalation of force to prevent serious injury to the victim and if it escalated to the point where you can not get away and you fear for your life then shooting is appropriate.

I think the stupid thing about mr. cellphone is that he was being yelled at by a crazed woman for 25 seconds yet he kept yapping on the phone and when the BG came in he was still yapping on the phone for another 5 seconds. Where the heck was that man's warning system? Woman or not if anyone is going to start cussing me out i'd drop that phone get out the OC/CN, back away, and have my hand on the gun ready to draw.

Unlike how most people characterized this incident it really started 30 seconds BEFORE the first punch was ever thrown. That's plenty of time to PREPARE to react. And once your warning flags go up time slows down. You got the flight or fight gearing up and so the next 10 seconds would seem like minutes to you.

Or at least that's how it is supposed to work in fully functional living organisms. Most "civilized" people have lost that survival instinct.

[WaltherP99]

THis guy did nothing to protect his own self. He wasnt knocked out on the first few punches. He did not try and fight back AT ALL. He did nothing.

I don't think ANYONE would have fought back right away after taking a first punch like that! That man KNEW how to fight (hence throwing ALL of his body weight into that punch). He did attempt to leave the store after the first punch was thrown.

First of all, it wasnt a sucker punch.

Your are right! That was a KNOCKOUT punch! I am not putting anyone down or anything, but I think every last one of us would have been dazed enough after that first punch NOT to do anything!

[seeker_two]

If I were in that restaurant & carrying my CCW, I absolutely WOULD draw....

1. Attacker has shown ability & willingness to harm persons in that restaurant. (what indicates he'd stop at that guy?)

2. Attacker's physical size & fighting ability prove disparity of force, allowing for a CCW to be used.

3. CCW carriers can use their weapons when threatened w/ deadly force (see 1 & 2.)

I would draw my CCW and verbally order ALL THREE (including the mouthy b**** ) on the floor until police arrive to sort out the mess. If the attacker advances on me, I'm shooting (see above). And I absolutely would NOT engage in any hand-to-hand combat w/ any of them while carrying--if they want my gun, they can have it one bullet at a time.... :mad:

[Troponin]

After some thought, I am willing to bet that if the BF was shot, the GF would most likely flip and attack also. What then? Shoot her too? If she gets ahold of your gun, she WILL shoot you. I have taken down a few big black women while working at the hospital, I can assure you that with my 230lbs, I still was out of breath and was close to getting whooped. lol I'd say she she just attacked when you drew on the BF and shot her too.

[kennybs plbg]

OK I'll bite, what is your definition of a real man ?

One that would have acted and did something/anything, or at least tried. It's not the size of the man, but whats in the heart of the man. This country was built on people doing the right thing and putting themselves in harms way for thier fellow man. It's sad to watch this country change, it's the hardest part of getting older, but knowing I raised 2 sons that wouldn't think twice in todays world to help the man out makes it a little easier. Actually the oldest just signed with the Marines last week.

kenny b

[snacktrack]

I couldnt agree with Metellus's post more.. Very thought out response. THats what I was trying to get across.

In this case the bravado " a real man" could make you into a real man that looks like a rag doll on the floor.

[Derius_T]

zulustyle:

You know, I'm a 35 year old disabled soldier. I am the sole provider for my family which consists of three little kids, and wife. So I understand. But how can I teach my children to be honorable, and couageous, and to stand up for their morals and convictions, if I can't do the same? How can I stand there and watch something like that happen in front of me and do nothing? Would the great men who founded this country have done nothing, or would big fat dude be recovering from a serious beating himself? Now don't get me wrong, I don't say this out of any macho guy attitude. I say it because I physically and mentally could not stand to see someone who is unwilling or unable to defend themselves be possibly killed right in front of me. If that man had died from the beating, and I had done nothing to stop it, I am just as guilty of killing him as the guy who did the beating. What if our soldiers and police decided they just didn't want to get involved? Where would we be then? You can argue its because they are paid to do that, but I guess its whats inside a man that even makes him take those jobs in the first place. I am deeply ashamed and saddened by the apathy in america today.....but thats another thread I guess.......

Now of course the only way I would feel differently is if the little guy had provoked the beating. Hit the woman, whatever. If he had been guilty of anything, maybe he deserved a sound beating. Some people do. But I still would have stopped it if I thought it was going to end in permanent damage or death. And at the risk of pissing everyone off, if I had been that man whos MOUTH SHE SPIT IN......well......she'd have most likely been.....uhhm...
hindered too.....

[kennybs plbg]

Amen! (can I still say that)

kenny b

[springfieldmaniac]

Well there was an incident in the fairly recent past in Dutchess County,NY.involving two felons.One was an ex-con that had spent a number of years in prison for murder.Well the story was he was walking down the street.A very large male started pummeling him with no mercy.The ex-murderer pulled a knife and stabbed him.The attacker died of his injuries.The DA did not file charges and deemed it self-defense.
It is a fine line,but do you sacrifice life in prison to save someone else in this situation like in the pizza parlor? If he had continued to beat him or started to kick him while he was on the floor,then I think it would be more appropriate to use deadly force if the man did not cease his attack when at gunpoint.IT is also a consideration of a very crowded parlor,might be a bad move to introduce a gun in such tight,crowded quarters.In any case people there should have done something other than deadly force at least.Sure the guy is big,but he would have trouble dealing with multiple attackers.There are times when you can walk into the middle of something and not know who the bad guy is,but this isn't the case.Sometimes I'm ashamed at my fellow citizens.

[rugerman13]

I have A P-97 as a CCW, but I also carry a 300,000 volt stun gun.I think in this case I would be afraid to use my .45 because of how many people were in the room. Yes I would want to stop this guy, but I would not want to hurt an innocent person who happened to be in the line of fire. BUT !! I don't care how big this man is or how bad he thinks he is, if you put 300,000 volts to his sack, he is going to hit the floor, and I mean QUICK !

[chris in va]

A stun gun/taser or OC would definitely be the way to go in that situation, IMO.

But one thing I noticed, it seems like the other guys standing around weren't so much horrified as they were just observers...and maybe *letting* the BG beat him senseless. I really gotta wonder what the 'victim' was saying, maybe some racial slander?

Countless times I hear of a BG beating up on their wives, GF, whatever...but frankly the victim can say some pretty damn inflammatory words to trigger the attack. Not condoning violence in any way though, so don't get me wrong.

[Unique 5.7]

In my state, I would yell, "He's gonna kill him!" REALLY loud and as panicky as possible at the 3rd head punch. I would then pull and most likely kill the perp with 3 center of body mass shots. Then I'd probably puke and shake all over. (I stabbed a man in the femoral artery in self defense in 1970, almost killed him, and that was my reaction about ten minutes later. And, yes, people stood impotently around watching this.) Then, I'd lawyer up and pray my clean arrest record, age, military experience, 35 years of holding a job, witnessess there, and character witnessess would help me avoid legal trouble.
If I was unarmed, I would run out of the place yelling for a cop and looking for a phone. I do not have the skills and strength to fight that guy. BTW, just to let you know I am NO hero, a major motive for running out would be to spare myself injury.

[Unique 5.7]

P.S. I might even go see a shrink and get some kind of tranquilizers. And I'd berate myself for being an idiot to risk my freedom.

[deep6blue]

In my view, the attackers fists are a deadly weapon, due to his size and a relentless rage for continuing to beat a guy after he was unconsious. Deadly force does not only include handheld weapons. Anyone who has killed someone using martial arts falls under this category.

If I was carrying: I would have shot the guy in the knee/leg, without warning. If that didn't not stop the attack, more shots would follow. As for the bystanders, I think in the close proximity of the pizza shop there would be clear shots to and behind the attacker. Plus, the size of the attacker is so large, a shot going completely through him is doubtful.

Someone also mentioned, "what if the attacker was stomping on the head of the unconcious victim". That is an even more obvious use of deadly force. The attacker would have been shot until he was on the ground.


just my thoughts

[deep6blue]

And another thought. A few years back a woman was raped in a bar. The rapist was convicted, but so were the people who stood around watching it happen and not doing anything.

[Mannlicher]

tough call. Guess I would have had to have actually been there in order for me to say what I would have done.
These things don't take long, and in my opinion, anything that would have stopped the attack instantly, would have been fatal to someone. I am really not sure if killing the fat guy would have been the best thing.

[mvpel]

I know not everyone agrees, but I think there was a reasonable chance that he'd have fallen among the 98% of defensive gun uses where the attack is stopped with no shots fired.

He wasn't enraged and incoherent, he was methodically and deliberately kicking the victim's ass. I suspect that a .45 caliber bore in his face would have had a good chance of quickly reshuffling his priorities.

[sthsquid]

Tough call. If I were CCW, that's even tougher. I'm 5'10" 170 and it's not all "solid muscle", if you know what I mean. Plus I'm fast approaching 50 years old. I am no match for Professor Toro Tanaka. I am not jumping on him with a concealed gun - if he gets that I am really in deep doo-doo. So it's either draw (and be ready to use the gun quick, otherwise don't draw!) or try and get out and call cops. If unarmed I would like to think I would try and do something, but Jeezuz that guy is big so some help would be nice.

Makes me think about carrying pepper spray - this seems the ideal situation.

Also makes me re-think carrying a bigger caliber! A .380 or 9mm would probably be like hitting that guy with a pellet gun.

It's a sickening video regardless. 4 years and the guy undoubtedly won't serve all of that - what bulls***.

[BillCA]

I wondered if anyone would suggest kicking the guy's knees or attacking his legs. Doesn't always work.

First, one has to look at the man's size and his "beefy-ness". While he looks fat, I'd bet that there's a fair amount of muscle in there, underneath his "padding". And therein lies a problem. Using a baton of any kind to strike him in a knee, elbow or wrist probably won't do the damage it would on a 200 lb man. Two of us had the pleasure of trying to take down a guy like this in '77 using standard hickory batons. Repeated solid hits to knees, shins, ankles, wrist and hands went nearly unacknowledged. :eek: He grabbed my partner's baton and lifted a 6'3", 220lb man off the ground and into the side of a dumpster, ending up with the baton. The Sgt. and I cleared leather together and the only remaining question was whether he gave up looking down Sarge's .45 or my .41 Mag. The only difference was that our perp was a rather large Samoan fellow and we needed leg irons to cuff him.

From the looks of the video, it appears that the victim avoided eye contact so as to avoid challenging and got slammed for it. Then he tried to make for the door to exit the situation but was stopped and hit again by Jabba the blut. After the 3rd hit you can see the victim trying to hold on to Jabba, only to be beaten down to the floor.

There's almost no position available inside the store from which any of the others could safely shoot. And with a man who's legs look like tree trunks, I'm not jumping on him at all. OC spray might've worked, but in those confines, everyone, including the user, would've been hit with the stuff.

In the 1890's, my great-grandfather would've stepped in with his sword cane and hobbled to S.O.B. Alas, such things will get you arrested in most cities today.

[chris in va]

And thanks to the movie "Misery" we all know what hobbling is... :eek:

[Unique 5.7]

Mannlicher - Very good, thoughtful post. The problem with a lot of incidents of this nature is it is hard to determine where somebody's stopping point and starting points are. Hitting somebody in the head makes me assume there is clear intent to inflict serious injuries and there is a significant risk of death, intended or not by the perp. The shooting of another person, no matter how justifiable, can have serious psychological consequences to one's self.

[sean85746]

I agree with a few who said their blood was boiling. I am a retired police officer with 2 years local, and 10 years federal service. I was injured in the line of duty, but that is not a factor, day to day.

Last November, I contracted Guillian-Berre Syndrome...it is a neuromuscular disease that shuts down your central nervous system, and thought it is 100% treatable and curable...it is a 6-12 month process before you are fully "back". I am recovering, and only using a cane for walking, unless I go to a Big Box Store...I use a rented power scooter type chair.

Okay, I add this as background, because my reaction right at this minute would HAVE to be different than when I am running on all cylinders. Know, that I also carry a handgun daily, as I have for 20 years.

I am 6'4" normally weigh in at 375lbs. I am normally very strong, and have years of defensive tactics training, ranging from holds, throws, boxing, and plain old fighting dirty...I was always a member of the "A HAND ON ME COSTS YOU A BROKEN BONE RIGHT NOW!" club while on the job.

When at full physical strength and ability and endurance, I'd have nad zero problem going toe to toe with the gorilla. As many have stated, he was big, strong, and could probably hit hard...but he was also slow, and untrained. He saw the victim as prey...he knew going in he could win. I am convinced that if the victim had stood his ground and acted like a wolf rather than a sheep, the gorilla would have "ghetto styled", run his mouth, and acted the part of a tough guy, and in the end, would have left running his mouth. I have seen it happen many many times. The victim cowed and turned his attention away from the gorilla, and that is when he was attacked.

Had I been there in my present state , I would have told the gorilla to stop, called 911, and placed my hand on my leather and lead sap which I carry in my back pocket. If the gorilla would have made a step toward me, I'd have knocked his brains loose. I know, I have seen me do it!

If I were at my normal level of strength...I would have called 911, told him to stop, and if he continued to beat the victim, I would forget waiting for him bring the fight to me...I'd simply skip to the part where I knock his brains loose with the sap.

I carry everywhere, everday...I don't leave home without my defensive handgun...but I don't see a justification for a non LEO to draw or shoot in this instance. But it would be a hard call to make,. armchair quarterbacking it. I can only say what I believe I would do, based upon my actions in the past.

[erehwesle]

Interesting set of thoughts here.

I have an interesting perspective on this as I *have* been attacked and pummeled in an attempt to rob me, while armed (I at the time didn't have a CCW, so was carrying a knife, Spyderco Chinnook to be specific). The attacker attacked me from behind (by wacking me over the head), and tried to wrestle my briefcase (secured across my body with a strap) from me, failing in that decided to 'rough me up' a bit.

I decided, given the situation, not to draw the blade, as I felt at the time my only option, given the poor tactical situation (me already down on the ground) would have been to try for a killing blow which was low percentage, or run a significant risk of having it taken away from me. I opted to protect my vitals, and, as we were in a fairly public place, hope it didn't last long.

This experience ended for me in a concussion, along with a 13 stitch gash in my scalp (from the initial attack, didn't see it, it was from behind, he used a board which he then dropped), and some bruised ribs, from being kicked etc.. once I was already down. By the time I was on my back, it was impossible for him to wrestle my briefcase away from me, as I fell on the strap, so I didn't even lose anything, except some blood and dignity.

This has been a huge motivating factor for me to take some self-defense courses, carry pepper spray at all times, and get a CCW.

However, in the situation, I still think it was right not to draw the knife. According to the police officer who interviewed me after if I had stabbed him, given he was 'unarmed', I would likely be looking at assault/murder myself. Any situation he could see that would have given me an opening tactically to use the knife, would have also given me the ability to disengage. I was actually complimented by the officer for my restraint (thanks sir! how bout a ride to the hospital?) I think that shooting an unarmed assailant would probably be looked on in a worse light.

This significantly underlined, to say the least, the drawbacks of a knife as a self-defense weapon. I strongly feel now that there are two classes of situation, those that pepper spray will handle (unarmed assailant), and those that I'd really like a gun on me, thank you (armed assailant).

Now that I have a CCW, I'd be very leery drawing on anyone unarmed, working on the reality this has pounded into my head, that you can't, even if you have it, draw a weapon unless you are completely prepared to use it, and to defend that decision and all of its consequenses.

I second and third those who recomend pepper spray in the situation, as well as yelling, or even wacking the guy over the head with something like a chair if you really feel the other person's life is in danger. I just think it is a bad time to go OK Corrall.

Oh, and also, trust me, it is a really good thing to watch your six! Learned that the hard way......

Just me $.02, probably worth even less. Interesting discussion, though.

[Unique 5.7]

Sean - I assume you would agree that it would be unwise to refer to the perp as a "gorilla" should one actually be involved in that situation?

[mvpel]

However, in the situation, I still think it was right not to draw the knife. According to the police officer who interviewed me after if I had stabbed him, given he was 'unarmed', I would likely be looking at assault/murder myself. Any situation he could see that would have given me an opening tactically to use the knife, would have also given me the ability to disengage. I was actually complimented by the officer for my restraint (thanks sir! how bout a ride to the hospital?) I think that shooting an unarmed assailant would probably be looked on in a worse light.
You should never solicit legal advice from a police officer.

[Hello123]

Some observations. Usually if you are like me, in situations such as this you are simply stunned and it takes several moments to process what is occuring, much less act. My mind would have been focused on the behavior of the women and then very shocked by the man. The big guy was swinging for only a few seconds and it would have taken almost immediate response to prevent/diffuse his attack. To successfully engage someone that size a person would have to be trained or had enough time for the adrenaline to kick in.

What really bothers me is how our society tolerates behavior like this. Vigilante response on these thugs is not good because of lack of objectivity, thus justice is easily compromised. But gosh dog, if that thug was before me on a jury I would push for a long prison sentenance. On the same thought, for these pervent child molesters, the firing squad (by the government of course) should be employed. I live in a city with a high crime rate. Elements of our city vote for leaderships simply based on whether the candidate is a minority. They seem to disregard how crappy the city has become under the current minority mayor. I would in a heart beat vote for a minority if I thought he was going to do a good job. Turning the tables, my minority brothers don't seem to feel the same way. It truly astounds me.

[roger-ruger]

the BG was obviously in rage and on a rampage against the poor fella. i guess calling his attention but not drawing your CCW weapon will just obviously turn you be another bashing victim. people who are in rage are irrational, period. so draw then speak and shout and tell the BG to stop or you'll shoot. at least in the Philippines this is logical. but in the states i dunno.

[Struckin Fuggle]

In all honesty and without hindsight, had I been in the room, I'd have reacted by screaming at the guy, then defending myself best I could. Rather an a$$ pounding than standing there while he pulped the guy.

Clearing leather in that 10x20 room full of people would have had disastrous consequences. Spray would have been helpful but likely not as effective as hoped.

So, I would have aided the victim as best I could and probably shared an ambulance with him.

Not cool, but honest.