Gas Piston ARs

[jwise]

DSA is making a gas piston AR now, as well as the Z-weapons model, HK's prototype, and possibly other more obscure makers as well. This has got me thinking...

I have decided that I love the AR weapon platform. Size, weight, ergonomics, accessories available, trigger, SIGHTS, and logistical support (I have LOTS of AR based equipment, ie. magazines) are among the many reasons I have decided to stick with what I know I like, instead of wasting money on "latest greatest."

However, I hate the way the AR directs the gas straight back into the receiver. Even if the weapon can continue to function and fire despite the grit, it's a pain to clean.

I have been waiting for a major manufacturer to produce a gas piston AR that doesn't mess with what makes the AR great to begin with. For example, the HK system adds some serious weight to the AR, but that may just be because they have only made it with a heavy barrel instead of M4 profile.

What do you guys think about the gas piston ARs? Who makes the good ones? Do you think DSA is going to be able to get a good product to market at a reasonable price?

Or, should I just forget about it and stick with the original "craps where it eats" system?

[Handy]

There are essentially two kinds of gas pistons - short and long stroke. The HK M4 uses the short stroke piston off the AR-18. This system weighs next to nothing - it's pretty much a rod that raps the bolt carrier.

As for the AR gas system, I don't know if there really is any modern data to suggest that it doesn't produce about the same reliability as piston rifles. The way the AR works is very positive - it both pushes on the carrier and expands the area between carrier and bolt head, helping the bolt head unlock. You could also look at it as "crap powered".

I don't think there is any good reason to just retrofit this onto the AR design. Why not just copy the ergonomic features that you like onto a new gun that takes best advantage of the gas system? Then you don't need a stock tube that can't be folded, for instance.

Take a look at the FN SCAR rifle, based on the FNC. Why not go to that?

[M700]

Take a look at the new Leitner-Wise system. Looks to be a VERY nice solution.

http://www.leitner-wise.com/products/556cp.htm

[jwise]

Initially, I'll have to file the Leitner-Wise product as one of the "obscure manufacturers" making gas piston ARs. I've never seen one, and never heard of them carried on any gun store shelf, and they don't even sell the uppers online. Please understand if I'm a bit skeptical at first of their product being much more than just a prototype.

The SCAR platform has piqued my curiosity, but again, not exactly available yet.

Any rumored price on the Leitner-Wise rifle, or just upper?

[Destructo6]

POF-USA has a gas piston AR upper on sale, also. $975 gets you the complete upper and a rail style handguard.

http://www.pof-usa.com/AR15/AR416upper.htm

[Vincent Black]

XCR Rifle (http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_modular_weapon_system.htm) :cool:

[PsychoSword]

I have been waiting for a major manufacturer to produce a gas piston AR that doesn't mess with what makes the AR great to begin with.

That's exactly what I've been waiting for. And such a beast in 6.5 Grendel is my great dream!!!!!!

While all the DSA's I've seen and messed with have worked perfectly, something about them has always struck me as being cheap for the price they charge. I'm just not totally impressed with them I guess and I can't put my finger on it.

DSA's are really popular around here.

[M700]

jwise:

Lot's more info here:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=216563
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=218894

[4V50 Gary]

Here's the tradeoff. With the gas impingment system of the AR, you have fewer parts. No piston bouncing back & forth & no op rod or bar either. No housing for either that vibrates. So, what's the point? Fewer parts, better consistency, less interference with barrel harmonics = more accurate rifle.

[jwise]

There is a LOT of GOOD information in those AR15.com threads! Thanks M700! That's pretty much just what I was looking for in regards to the LW weapon.

I wish I could get that good of info on DSA's new rifle.

[M700]

jwise:

On the DSA system......may want to try searching/asking around about POF-USA....they are the company that makes the uppers for DSA. Personally, the fact that they require using the POF rail system completely puts them out of the running for me. This is also why you most likely will not find as much info out there compared to the LW......most folks on arfcom arent into the POF rail system and are simply not interested in a proprietary upper that requires it.

A few more details on it here though:

http://www.pof-usa.com/AR15/AR416upper.htm


Edit: Whoops....Destructo6 already posted that. :o

[FirstFreedom]

What Vincent Black said. I think the XCR will quickly move out of the obscure realm, once it's actually available, given its fairly-well-established maker (Robarm). But then again, DSA is even more so established, and they are known to make fine products, and do so sans an owner who has P.O.ed a lot of people (Alex Robinson). And like Handy said, it's better cuz it's not just an AR upper, it's a whole new rifle that can utilize a folding stock; it merely retains the ARs ergos and accessorizing ability.

I'm with PsychoSword - an XCR in 6.5 Grendel or 6.5mm Rem BR would be the pig's feces (that's a good thing), IMO (not 6.8 spc).

The XCR can change from a 5.56 gun using standard AR mags, to a 6.8 gun using 20 or 25 round 6.8 mags, to a 7.62 by 39mm gun, using proprietary AK mags (said to be currently under development), with each conversion taking on the order of a minute or so, with one little simple tool.

See the caliber change video here:

http://www.robarm.com/xcr_videos.htm

It's not earth-shattering or anything as .223 rifles go, and is of necessity going to be a little heavier, and possibly less accurate than an AR. But, most importanly IS American made, making it possible/easier for civvies to get, and it comes standard with a folder stock, and it IS nice and modular with the easy caliber change feauture like ARs, and apparently a very good weapon.

Take a look at the FN SCAR rifle, based on the FNC. Why not go to that?

I'd like to..problem is, it's not available cuz it's foreign and the red tape and/or sporting purposes test. The XCR we might actually see, in addition to the simple AR uppers with a gas piston system. But then again, FN showed the P2000 at shot (but not the SCAR)...so I don't know what the hell is going to be available. Perhaps someone more familiar with the industry and the sporting purposes test can tell us (a) whether the P2000's appearance at SHOT means it will be available to non-LEOs or not, and (b) why the SCAR was not shown at the FN booth at SHOT?

I'm not familiar with the DSA guns - I was operating under the impression that the DS-AR was simply an AR rifle...?? OK, I see that 700 has posted that the DSA gun uses the POF system, which precludes a folding stock, and has other downsides.

[Vincent Black]

Not to mention that the XCR is coming out with quite a few options for it as well. :cool: Go to the site and see the price list for the options list. RA never had those options for the M96 so that means that RA is really puttting this rifle in the foreground of their product line.

[Handy]

FF,

I meant that the US could just as easily go with version of the SCAR, not you and I. But you can buy a preban FNC.

[jwise]

I like short stocks. That being said, an ADJUSTABLE (read: collapsing) stock is almost a must for me. The folding stock on the XCR looks cool, and makes it short, but it is less desireable to me. On the other hand, they offer three lengths, so one just might work for me.

The F2000 has a thumbhole stock and most likely will NOT come with a flash suppressor. That's how they can import it.

What's wrong with a proprietary rail handguard if it's a "rail handguard?" What else would you want? Even the LW requires "fitting" for different handguards, and comes with proprietary (non-rail) handguards.

At $975 with all that standard equipment, it looks like a pretty good deal.

[natedog]

F2000 will be home grown in FNs North Carolina plant.