Had an 'incident' recently, need thoughts

[chris in va]

I have a female friend, and she has a daughter, 12. We went for a walk up to the 7 for some ice cream and sat outside on the curb...at night. Our german shepherd was with the kid sitting about 20' away from us on the opposide side of the driveway. Everything was lit well and we're enjoying the warm fall evening.

A couple scruffy guys start walking up to her talking to the dog, and he wasn't alerting for some reason. "Oh what a nice dog you have", "Does he bite" etc. This goes on for about 5 tense minutes, and I'm looking over at my friend giving her the rib a few times, but she just says to be calm (works at a hotel during graveyard shift).

Now these two characters are too close to her for my comfort and the dog isn't doing s**t. It would have taken about 1.8 seconds for one guy to grab her and take off.

I wasn't armed. What would have been the proper response if I had been?

[Model520Fan]

I notice that your lady friend didn't see a problem, and, in fact, nothing happened. This should be a hint.

If you had been armed, and were reasonably proficient in the light available, your response should probably have been about the same as it was this time (pretty much nothing), since you would have probably had power to control things if they got really out of hand. If you think you needed to be closer, you could have just gotten closer by wandering over and saying hello in a friendly manner.

Maybe the dog knew what was going on, too. Are you so sure he wouldn't have reacted if one guy had grabbed her?

[chris in va]

That's the thing, I never know what to expect from this dog. He'll bark his head off at someone walking past the fence, but cowers or wags his tail at strangers outside the house.

My friend did indeed sense a problem, but from dealing with oddities wandering in at 3am to the hotel lobby she decided to let things play out. I asked if we should walk over, and she said no.

[guntotin_fool]

I do not believe in pyschic dogs but I do believe dogs can sense hostility.

We have two dogs. Wifes dog is a watcher and alarm dog, barks at anyone or anything within a selfdefined perimeter. My dog never barks, just growls and decides who can enter the house or who can get near kids in yard.
My dog never growls at young kids but certain people he just does not trust even people I have not detected aggresion in, he senses it and will act in a way that sets me on edge...

I say this to say....I have been tricked by people, but the dog seems to sense. I would watch the woman freinds dog more closely on how he is handled. Is it praised for barking at door knocks but then scolded for jumping on visitors, this may show why its behavior is such. Most dogs seem innately protective of children and I think it would have given some signal of unease had it detected any aggresion.

[InToItTRX]

Just because it is a German Shepherd does not mean it is going to do something about the situation. I have owned several and have had several co workers who were K9 Units own them as well. It is how you train the dog to react, if you teach it from the beginning to be nice to everyone, then it will. I myself own a German Shepherd, and all he does is let me know when he hears a noise that does not sound normal, I don’t want him protecting my life, and I don’t think that is his job. So I trained him to be like he is today, when he tells me he hears something I check it out myself, and if necessary with a weapon. I am not certain how this German Shepherd was trained, or how he was brought up, but don't rely on a dog no matter what breed for protection.

[Dusty Miller]

Chris, do yerself a favor and buy some ice cream you can eat at home so you don't have to go out at night with a kid and deal with the scum that emerge after the sun goes down. Get the picture?

[41special]

don't rely on a dog no matter what breed for protection.

Personally I depend on a Dog everyday for protection.

I currently serve as a Military Working Dog handler. I work a 3 year old German Shepard named Bagio, who I have traveled with all around the world. And I'll tell you he hasent let me down once. In fact I'd take that dog into any situation before I'd take any man. Believe me a dog is twice as reliable as any mechanical device including a handgun. I say this even as an avid shooter.

And for those would don't believe in a Dog sixth sense, dog's have twice the sense of any man.

_____________________________

An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"

[cpileri]

One time in Maryland I walked into a gunstore and was greeted very quickly by a BIG, but obviously not fully grown, German Shepard. I knelt down and patted him, scratched his neck, etc saying 'good pooch', and so forth- the usual thing you do to play mildly with a dog.
He follows me around the store running back and forth between every aisle over and over again, checking everything out.
I get to the counter nad say hi, and no one who works there is saying so much as ONE word- totally unusual for these normally amicable guys.
As I scan the glass counter cases, and pet the pup again saying ,"What is it, pooch? you want to play or something?"; his owner turns gruffly around:
from behind the counter a man in an ATF labelled windbreaker gives me and the dog a frown but says nothing and returns to rummaging through some papers.
It was the height of the 'Beltway Sniper' incident, and the agent was collecting names and info on people who bought AR-type rifles in the recent past. This fellow was to become my inspiration for Agent Schmuckatelli, BTW.

But his ostensibly trained people-biter just wanted to be played with.
So maybe all dogs CAN sense aggression, and maybe some will ignore training and let (non-aggressive) strangers pet them during working hours.
FWIW.
C-

[John_StLmo]

“…A couple scruffy guys start walking up to her talking to the dog, and he wasn't alerting for some reason. "Oh what a nice dog you have", "Does he bite" etc. This goes on for about 5 tense minutes, and I'm looking over at my friend giving her the rib a few times, but she just says to be calm (works at a hotel during graveyard shift).
Now these two characters are too close to her for my comfort and the dog isn't doing s**t. It would have taken about 1.8 seconds for one guy to grab her and take off.
I wasn't armed. What would have been the proper response if I had been?”

No offense meant - but -

Apparently the woman, girl, and even a dumb animal realize they have to share this planet with a multitude of human beings (even some “scruffy” ones – good grief) and not everyone we meet or see is a terrorist, BG, Rapist, Kidnapper, Defiler, or “Evil Doer”…

There are good people on this planet – regardless of “how they look”…

You “weren’t armed?” Thank God.

[Crimson Trace]

This is not a weapons issue, but it is a situational awareness and presence issue.

The dog being there is a red herring, a non-issue and has no bearing on the situation. The fact that you were or weren't armed is also a non-issue. Meaning, it has no bearing on how you could have/should have reacted.


(we will assume for a moment that there exist in the world people that you would not want standing next to a girl and that these subjects were this type of person)

How about going over and standing next to the girl?
How about telling these guys to get the hell down the road?
How about going over there and bringing them both back to your property?

If something feel wrong it probably is, DO something about it. You are not a victim at the winds of the world. Take some responsibility for your own safety and teach the women in your life to do the same.

There is a lot of ground between doing nothing and drawing a weapon. Use it!

-Z



cpileri - dog was VERY likely a search/detection dog and not a protection dog. They look the same, but...

[Blind Tree Frog]

I wasn't armed. What would have been the proper response if I had been?When you get brought up on charges for brandishing your weapon and/or threatening them with it, what will you say to the jury? "I didn't trust them."?

If they did happen to grab the kid and run, what were you thinking you'd do? Shoot them? With the kid in their arms? How do you explain to your girl when the bullet misses him or overpenetrates and goes through her?

I'm not seeing why you should of done anything different then your lady friend of just sit there and shut up. I'd wager that the first thing that she would of done if she sensed something wrong was to call the girl over like it was no big deal and wipe her face or something. Even if they were bad men, how would of having a gun helped the situation?

[gfen]

Speaking as a scruffy, dirty guy who likes animals and feels that people should still say "hello" when they pass on the sidewalk, I'm going to backup what John StLo had said.

That said, what I'd have done, had I been in that situation? I would've stood up, walked over to the knot of people and said, "Hello."

A little kindness goes a long way, and you can protect someone from being kidnapped far easier when you're standing there, anyway, than by blasting lead across a parking lot.

[FrankDrebin]

You should consider yourself lucky that the dog didn't bite someone for being in an area where they had every legal right to be. As far as you sitting there, sounds to me like you were loitering - a misdemeanor in most towns. If the management wanted you to sit there, there would be a bench there instead of a curb to sit on.

[Para Bellum]

Don't judge a book by it's cover. The guys did no harm and ment no harm. The most dangerous people look orderly and harmless. You were on alert - good. But you as a civilian can't strike preemtively and the get away with - oups, there were no weapons or immediate threats.

Some people have a tough life and look tough. That doesn't at all mean that they have bad intentions. Evil is who evil does. Being cautious is good though. Helps correct miscalculation...

[InToItTRX]

41 special, I guess I stated it wrong. He should not rely on his dog for protection. If it was never trained, it is not going to do a good job. Like I said I trust my dog to wake me, or alert me when he hears something out of the norm. I know 100% he will do that, because I wanted him to do that. However he is nice to everyone, also because I wanted him to be, as a puppy we made lots of stops at Petsmart so he could interect with other people and children, I live alone so it was important to do that. A dog will only be as good, or as bad as its brought up to be.

[41special]

Intoittrx,

I did'nt mean to snap, I understand what you meant. It's all training. No matter what your talking about.

In response to the original question,

why did'nt you tell these fella's to take a hike ?

Armed or not, if you can't handle yourself as far as making your intention's known (i.e. you want these guys to leave on the double), it's probably better that you not be armed.

If you were armed, would you have used it if they got a little froggy with you ?

And never brandish a firearm, all that tells me is that your not wanting to use it. The only time you should 'pull' one is the second before your next pull on the trigger.

In my unexpert opinion of your situation a firearm would have been useless, now a blackjack, roll of dimes, or a little intestinal fortitude might have helped.

__________________________

An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"

[Dwight55]

Chris, . . .

I'm going to go out a ways on this limb for you, . . . as no matter how I read your post, . . . I still didn't get the all clear I read others getting, . . . as well as your lady friend. I would have been on full alert from the first hello until we were all 4 home and the door locked. No brandishing, . . . no posturing, . . . but closely watching. And I would have found a reason to stand up, . . . even if it meant faking a cramp in the leg or something.

I think you were smart to be on alert, . . . an "alone" young female is a target for far too many bg's & perverts. If you have your CCW, perhaps this can be used as a wake up call for several things. If not, . . . maybe it should.

As things turned out, . . . the scruffys were apparently just that, . . . scruffys. If on the other hand, they were smelling out the fruit, for picking later, they already know the dog is hopeless and probably figure mom for helpless.

Without knowing all the details, I think it would have been smart to make sure as the 4 of you made your way away, . . . that you put your arm around her shoulder, mussed her hair, or did something that let the scruffys know that she has at least one man in her life now, . . . and that you are it. The message may have been lost, . . . but it may have been well taken too.

May God bless,
Dwight

[chris in va]

Thanks for all the replies, even the backhanded ones. It's a learning process.

Basically there was one thing I accidentally omitted and remembered later. One of the guys had been circling the block in his car, staring rather intently at her daughter. He 'stopped for gas' but hung out at the station for a little longer than most people would, leaving the car at the pump.

The whole thing really just set me on edge and sent up all sorts of red flags. I was told later one of the guys was a homeless dude that visits that area a lot, but the other one was giving me the heebies.

I need to move away from the city...really.

[Mannlicher]

Since you asked, I'll be candid. If you were not armed, and don't have any idea of what you would do if you had been armed, I think it would be better if you did not go out after dark, and certainly not out with folks that might depend on you for protection.

[XavierBreath]

I believe you were probably on target with your assessment of the guy. Some things that make us apprehensive are intangible and hard to put into words. Your intuition was probably correct.

My question is why you did not intervene? You did not need a gun to intervene. All you would have needed to do was get up off the curb, mosey on over there and explain to the gentleman that your dog will not bite anyone until you tell him to. You could also explain to the gentleman that your daughter (a convenient lie) has to go home now and do her chores. If the guy gets froggy, simply point to your wife (another convenient lie) on her cell phone talking to the police. Read him his license number that she is calling in.

What you lacked was not a gun. What you lacked was gumption. If you need a gun to have a bit of gumption, all you will have to fall back on is the gun. Don't take that wrong, please. It's not meant in a bad way, just think about it.

Best regards,
XB

[chris in va]

You guys don't understand. I *wanted* to get up and say something, but she told me to stay put, per her experience at the hotel.

No lack of gumption. Trust me.

[pepsquad]

I was taking an evening walk, i do this often help clear my head after my nap and before homework. That day i took a different route and was walking up a small side street, I see a young man (30s) and an older gentlemen (60s) i'm guessing he was his father. the other guy was sitting in an old ranch wagon and the young guy was trying to push it up into the drive. i rush over to help me get it into the drive way as he had to push it up onto a little hill. after that was acomplished i was peering around the side of the car to see the condition of the panels ect. (i love old cars) for about 5 seconds they i righted my self and stuck my hand out to indroduce myself as thier neighbor from a few blocks up. the young gentlmen took a step back from me and the older dude took out his tool box and flipped it open. the hairs on my neck stood up, i know what i keep in my tool box (a small handgun) so i took an immediate step back from thier car onto the sidewalk and decided maybe to try that introduction thing again. nope still a no go, i got as far as "Hi, my name is Sarah...." when suddenly the older guy said "nice to meet you thank you for your help..." then end of the sentance was left hanging like that a definate clue to hit the road.
the only thing i can think is despite my smile and helpful demeanor they were startled by me because i'm different, i have short hair very short hair (think 1/4 of an inch) and what people call a bull ring through my septum. this all happened in less then 2 minutes i was just taken aback by thier reaction especually since i was wearing huge clothes that could have hidden a gun i was just in jeans and a t with my hands at my sides. Plus i don't think i'm all the scary who knows maybe i am. :eek:

just my story of being on the other side of things
Sarah

[joab]

Define scuffy.

At the end of my work day scruffy would sometimes be a kind description of me.

However manners and propriety would prevent me from approaching an unescorted young girl at any time.
That behavior would have alarmed me even if he had on a $1000 suit

[XavierBreath]

You guys don't understand. I *wanted* to get up and say something, but she told me to stay put, per her experience at the hotel.

No, I understood that.
Your intuition was discounted by her. That kind of thing happens frequently. We look for a reason to continue to deny what our subconcious is trying to tell us. Basically what happened is your girlfriend said "My intuition is better than yours, because I work the night shift at a hotel." Does that make sense? You agreed to it. Sometimes a job like that will dull intuition as frequency of contact breeds complacency.

Did you get a license number? A good description? How do you know that a registered sex offender is not stalking your young friend at this very moment? Will you feel differently if she disappears tomorrow?

I'm not saying to go over there and be aggressive, just to go make your presence known. Let the fellow know your young friend is not unaccompanied, and he has been seen and noted. That would have been enough to send a sex offender looking for a less risky target. The goal is to take your young friend off his victim selection list, that is all.

[abelew]

Say hi, and become a power in the conversation, and be IN CONTROL. Ciminals are very unlikely to mess around with a confident person, who makes their presence known. If you were armed, the same goes, however you have another venue if things become less than plesant. Basically, depending on the age of the girl, instruct her, in a voice that is loud enough for the guys to hear, to go inside, and that she shouldnt be talking to strangers. Confidence, presence, and keeping a cool head will help you prevail in this situation.

[Edward429451]

I'm with Crimson Trace on this one.

Scruffy or not, good guy(s) or not, wife/gf wanting you to stand down or not, dog not alerting or not...those guys had no business approaching a 12 yr old girl and I think it was your place to confirm to these guys that the girl wasn't hanging out waiting to meet guys or whatever. You could've did this in a politely aggressive manner by just quickly standing up (without asking for permission, no offense) and approaching them with a confident quick walk saying Hi guys whats up? They would've got the message good guys or bad.

Thats how I would've handled it, armed or not, dog or not. YMMV.

[AKhunter]

Regardless of the intent of those guys, you really should have your dog evaluated by a personal protection trainer--he'll be able to tell you if your dog has the nerves to protect. Also, he can wear a hidden sleeve/suit and do a mock home invasion for you to see how your dog reacts. This kind of civil agitation can be a real confidence builder for a dog on the cusp of nervousness.

AK

[Bullrock]

This post is a great read even if you did get knocked around some chris in va. One thing I have learned from it, is to think long and hard about what I want to say, prior to my next posting.

Then again, no one will probably reply.

[Tincup703]

The next time you get asked "Does the dog bite", your answer should be "only when I tell him to"!

[CarlosDJackal]

Is it possible that your friend, her daughter, and their German Sheperd actually know these two scruffy-looking individuals? FWIW, some of ths scruffiest looking individuals I have ever met were Undercover Officers.

[LAK]

Sounds like your lady friend may have, either through experience or otherwise, keener perception for people that are trouble as opposed to those who merely seem that way to others. Family dogs that appear will usually switch modes very fast in the face of an aggressive threat to their masters. I would say that as soon as one of these guys had put hands on the daugther and she displayed the first signs of distress (and maybe even before that), G. Shepherd would have acted in character with the breed; they are normally very protective.