In Praise of the 30-30 Carbine

[Grapeshot]

I think I am not the only one on here who has had recurring thoughts about how neat it would be to own one of these. Well, now I do, and have for 6 weeks.
Back then I wrote a review here. After shooting my Winchester Ranger Compact a bit more, the only thing I can say is:

The General Purpose Defense/Hunting Carbine (The Always With Me Rifle) has been found. I have dubbed mine the "Winny 30". I have all but forgotten my lust for a Ruger Mini 30 now.

People are seriously under-rating the 30-30 Carbine, in my view. Sure, it's not an AR, it only has a 5-round capacity, and it's not even semi-automatic. It only shoots a medium-powered/range cartridge.

To my surprise, these are POSITIVE traits.

1. I HATE the looks/handling of AR's. Also, I could buy 3 30/30's for the cost of one AR. And mine shoots about as well as an AR, with better stopping power too. Also, it's more compact and handy, which can matter if it's a truck gun.

2. Anything more than 5 rounds in the gun is just gratuitous ammo-carrying. I prefer no sling on my carbine, since when I walk through the woods, it's always in my hands. Weight is crucial in this circumstance. Also, having to scrounge 30-round clips sucks.

3. Not being semi-auto RULES if you reload. Now I can always find my brass. Now I can reload to different power levels. And if your reloads are slightly out-of-spec, a manual gun can still eat them and just grin. Also, I can shoot this gun about as fast as I could my AK (which may just say I was a crappy shot with the semi). The closest gas gun I know of is still bigger/heavier than the Ranger Compact. And my carbine is more accurate, too. And in the back of my mind, I think not being semi-auto would keep me from "spraying and praying" in combat. And lastly, I'm thinking that a loose ol' lever gun would be better functioning in the freezing cold winters here.

4. The 30/30 is a "just good enough" caliber. It's not overly powerful and it won't shoot that far. So WHO CARES? I'm not a would-be-sniper and I can't spot a deer much past 200 yds. around here. But inside that range, and critters better watch out. And as for defense, most vets seem to respect the 7.62 x 39 mm, and to my thinking the exposed lead of the 30-30 ought to make it even better.
But most importantly, THE 30/30 DOESN'T KICK THE CRAP OUT OF ME. I'll gladly take it over my .308 for fun practice, which means I'll practice more and get better with it.

Now, to update my earlier review: The dicey action problems noted in my earlier review seem to have disappeared with use and my increasing familiarity with the gun. Additionally, I have engineered some better handloads, and now feeding seems to be perfectly reliable. Still, no matter what I do to my dies, a finished shell, when slipped into the chamber, still sticks a little. Since the gun's working fine, I guess it's ok.
Accuracy is still marvelous, about 1" - 1 1/4" at 100 yds. with 3 different types of loads tested, a little bigger than I previously reported, but hey, now I've got a ruler. I still cannot believe this, having been told 2"-3" was good for a 16" barrel. And guess what? I never did ANY barrel break in, and don't even clean my rifle every time I shoot it. All I do is make sure to use a brass muzzle guard when cleaning. And my reloads? I am using the first load I tried, 31 grains of IMR 3031 - it doesn't get any better than this.
I'm sure 2"-3" groups ARE common with the absolutely crappy open sights though. I took off the Trashco and put on a 4-12x Bushnell.
Sole complaint: heavy trigger, which is not that noticeable off sandbags, but offhand takes some getting used to. I plan to talk to the gunsmith about this.
Conclusions: I think people must be judging these rifles without the benefit of using a scope. Or maybe I just got the one good one. Total satisfaction on my part is rare, so that says a lot.

[Mute]

Amen Grapeshot. I love my Ranger in .30-30. It's light and compact and the .30-30 has been around for a long time. Still very popular. Obviously more people like it than would be indicated by all the criticisms you hear. Personally, I think that within 200 yards it's a better cartridge for medium sized game than the .223.

[DAL]

I'm glad to hear you are so satisfied with your rifle. It sounds like a winner.

In the back of my mind, I've long thought of acquiring a good, lever-action .30-30, not necessarily for hunting (my '06 takes care of that chore), but more for a handy defensive piece while camping. Of course, I could use my SKS for the job, but a L/A .30-30 looks less "threatening" to the gun-ignorant public, especially if I ever have to use it in self-defense and I'm prosecuted by a crafty DA.

BTW, IF I ever get a L/A .30-30, I'll probably put one of those Williams peep sights on it. That would be good enough for my purposes.
DAL

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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."
--Patrick Henry, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution (1788)

GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, ARI, NRA

[Gewehr98]

I believe the lever-action .30-30 to be highly underated, myself. The first .30-30 I bought was a neglected Savage 340 bolt-action, which I restored and is now owned by my wife. I started reloading for it, and realized that the round had a lot more accuracy potential than folks gave it credit for. So when a buddy sold me his top-eject Model 94 for basically the cost of the transfer paperwork, I tried some of my wife's spitzer handloads in it, single-shot, of course. Wow! But 150gr and 170gr flatpoint handloads also do quite nicely in the levergun. Then I stumbled upon a Boone prismatic scope for the rifle...
http://www.geocities.com/gew98.geo/win94.jpg

[Grapeshot]

Great points, guys.

Some thoughts:
1. To some, the most important factor may just be its PC looks. To others, local laws may may actually make semis illegal. Heck, I like it because it makes me feel like John Wayne.

2. Ah, spitzer bullets ... now that's a whole 'nother reloading adventure! I'm picturing a "clover-leaf"...

3. Why Marlin doesn't make a 30-30 carbine anymore (especially in Stainless!) is beyond me, but I probably couldn't afford it anyway.

4. The Winny 30 is quite a bit cheaper than a "scout rifle", even a Savage. I'm thinking that the lever is faster than a bolt, but I could be wrong here. Anybody experimented? But again, still more compact, and even a hair lighter.

5. I wish I had a chronograph. I'm hoping that 150 grainers are pushing 2100 fps, but probably I'd be lucky if their pushing 2000 out of my 16". I tried the Light Magnum Hornady ammo, but have no idea if velocity is any improved by it (I know muzzle flash is sure brighter).

6. One con of the 30-30 is that supposedly the cases stretch like crazy, only taking 3-4 reloadings before needing trimmed.

Hope these postings help.

[bedlamite]

I will never be without a lever action carbine, they are probably the best general purpose rifle ever invented. Right now I have 3, a Marlin 336c and Win 94 with a peep sight (1947 vintage), both in 30-30, and I also have a Win 94 trapper in 44mag, this shoulder pistol is awesome for cowboy shooting. For 30-30, I have found Hornady's 150gr #3035 on 38 grains of Winchester 748 to be one of the best loads, it's 2270fps and more accurate than I am.

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NRA, GOA
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"-Neil Peart
Vote in November.

[Oleg Volk]

I will only say one thing in favor of rifles with deteachable magazines compared to tube-fed lever actions: an AR15 can be unloaded w/o any rounds being chambers. Still, your Winchester is likely a better hunting gun.

[Paul B.]

Grapeshot. Since when hasn't Marlin made a 30-30 carbine? The 336 is still available and they now have the 336M, a stainless steel version as well. I have heard though, that the inside parts are still regular steel, but am not sure on that point.
Paul B.
P.S. For those who think the 30-30 is ouny, the world's record Grizzly Bear was tied by a man shooting a 30-30. B&C won't allow it as he shot the bear in the head and there is a bullet hole in the skull.
P.B.

[4V50 Gary]

Rifle magazine's special edition on Hunting has an article which is lavish on its praise for the 30-30 as an ideal gun for falling treed catamounts.

[Poodleshooter]

Apples and oranges. I own an AR and a Win94 Ranger. If I'm hunting deer at ranges up to 150yds, I'd take the Winchester. If I'm shooting groundhogs, or in a defensive situation I'd rather have the AR. For a better comparision, I'd take my SAR-1 over either one for hunting and defense. It's about the same weight, shorter and I like the sights better than the buckhorns on my Win94. It's faster handling, quicker on repeat shots and, believe it or not, just as accurate as my Win94. I appreciate your statement about ease of retaining brass but...I shoot steel case in my SAR. 100 rounds of 7.62x39 cost less than a box of Hornady 150gr. FP bullets alone for my 30/30! Now that I've touted the AK over the classic Win94, I have to say that I received my Ranger as a wedding present from my groomsmen and will never, ever give it up! (I shot 1 round through every "thank you card" that I sent to those guys!) For me, it's appeal is in it's classic lines and nostalgia, not in its performance against more modern rifles.

[Grapeshot]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul B.:
Grapeshot. Since when hasn't Marlin made a 30-30 carbine?

Since as long as I can remember. Quite a few used "Marauder" models are out there though.

"The 336 is still available and they now have the 336M, a stainless steel version as well. I have heard though, that the inside parts are still regular steel, but am not sure on that point.
Paul B."

The 336 and 336 M have 20" tubes, Paul. I consider a carbine to be 16". Although Marlin has made some 18.5" 35 Remington Guide Gun type rifles, they currently catalog no 16" 30-30's.
P.S. For those who think the 30-30 is ouny, the world's record Grizzly Bear was tied by a man shooting a 30-30. B&C won't allow it as he shot the bear in the head and there is a bullet hole in the skull.
P.B.[/quote]

[Grapeshot]

Poodleshooter, sounds like your SAR-! is a real keeper. I'd love to have an accurate AK. Before buying the 30-30 carbine, I considered a SAR, but over on the AK forum guys were talking about 6" groups at 100 yds, and that dampened my enthusiasm. Also, you're right, 7.62 is WAY cheaper - Wal-Mart is selling Remington 30-30's for $9.38 per 20.

Regards,

Grapeshot

[Will Beararms]

I am not a paid writer for a gun rag nor am I a guide. I have hunted since the age of Seven for twenty-nine years.

I have used a plethora of rifle choices to take deer in the hardwood river bottoms and pine fields of the Deep South.

The Marlin 30-30 inside of 100 yards with a 150 grain bullet and a 4X scope is the finest close quarter killing machine for Whitetail known to mankind.

I have knocked every deer down inside of 100 yards I have ever shot. I have shot through brush at 40 yards and killed deer with it.

The Marlin will never get the praise of the latest and greatest because it is not a big ticket item.

[Dave T]

I have something to pass along that might be of interest to those of you in this thread.

As most of you know, Jeff Cooper has been touting his "Scout Rifle" for a number of years. Back in the early 90's the late Bruce Nelson (of combat holster fame) was talking to Jeff about this and said something to the effect of, "...so what you want is a light, handy, medium powered rifle of about 30 caliber, with reasonable capacity. Didn't John Browning do that in 1894?"

When Bruce told me this story, he said Cooper got very flustered and changed the subject. A few months later the Colonel was touting the virtues of the Model 94 as a "Crusier Carbine", suitable for police use and self-defense for city dwellers. Interesting!

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Dave T
PCSD Ret
AMBUSCADE
Arizona CCW and Renewal Classes
Tactical Self -defense training.
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by Dave T (edited October 23, 2000).]

[taco]

I guess I should be the last guy to have a 30-30 Winchester since I live in a big city, drive a little two seater sports car and only hunt with revolver (whicj I have not done in past 2 years :( ) but I do have two of them and it is one of my favorite rifle. I enjoy reloading the cartridge and shooting it and while it is not a tack driver, I can usually shoot 2" at 100 yards which is good enough for most situations. My wife enjoys shooting it too when loaded with mild cast bullets loads.

I take it with me when my wife, dogs and I go on our long weekend drive to the country (rifle in the gun rack of my wife's SUV :D ) or when going canoe/camping trips.

While there are many other rifles which are faster, more accurate, etc. only the lever action rifles have that undeniable attraction.

[guerilla1138]

i love my winchester model 94 30.30.
thats one great gun.
its an all around do anything rifle, i can take coyotes running at 90 yards with it, and i can take deer with it if i have to.
i can work it faster than any pump action shotgun.
the recoil is pleasant.
the round in wonderfull.
i really love lever action 30.30's.

i might get a new one her pretty soon and dress it upw ith some sythetic furnature for just banging around in the truck.

[Paul B.]

Grapeshot. The Marlin 336 is a carbine. If it were made with a 16 inch barrel, it wold be a "trapper" model. If I wanted a Marlin with a 16 inch barrel, I'd just buy the 20 inch model and have a decent gunsmith cut it down for me. With all the good thing people are saying about the Winchester in "trapper mode", I might just have to find me one and see.
Paul B.

[Grapeshot]

Oops, sorry Paul. I think my definition of "carbine" may be a little different than Marlin's. Heck, I just thought it was a short-barreled rifle, and since to me the typically encountered 30-30 almost always has a 20 inch barrel, I just presumed carbines were shorter than that. Then I realized Marlin used to make 24" 30-30's way back when, and I guess that would make the 20" seem a "carbine".

I think you should definitely try a Trapper, you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Tom Matiska]

Grapeshot,

I reached the age a few years ago where I realized carrying too much gun around was just ruining a nice walk in the woods.

All you really need to enjoy hunting is a lunch and thermos of hot coffee in the game pouch, a good pair of boots, and a 6 1/2 lb carbine tucked under the arm.

Tom

[Grapeshot]

Amen, Tom.