Black Talons

[Tady45]

Ok, maybe this topic has been beat to death...If so, forgive me for I have not paid attention :D In any event, I have recently got on a Talon buying binge. On Gunbroker.com, you can find "real black talons" in the original boxes, and plenty of repackaged stuff for LEO's only,Rangers etc. I have seen Black Talons +p advertised recently. And there is the question, as the dealer I bought my real Talons informed me that "all the original Black Talons from Winchester are +p." Is this the case? Are all the repackaged Rangers SXT's etc not real Black talons, but just a bunch of hooey? What is the real story with these things? By the way, I always want things that the bleeding hearts tell me that I can't have, are these rounds really as destructive as I am told?


Larry C.

[yayarx7]

Every bit of research I have studied says that the Black Talon is a good, solid, personal defense, expanding hollow point round, period. Not the best, not the worst. I have even heard some say that the newer SXT is better designed. The frangibles won outright in the strousberg(sp?) goat tests, and the old Hydra-shok came in on top of the "conventional" HP Cartridges, including outperforming the EVIL Black Talon. The anti-gunners, looking for any excuse, again, just hyped the BT up. And so it became hyped up to the ill informed gun enthusiasts.

Hope that helps...

[maxwayne]

I have a box of 45 and 9mm Black Talons and neither indicates +P.

[Coltdriver]

The black talon picked up a "darth vader" reputation via its name and some uninformed hype from the press.

It is a good round and as mentioned above is neither the best nor the worst.

I believe that today there are a lot of choices for better rounds but you can do worse too. I would not pay the hyped up gun show prices for the mystique of the round. It is not that good and for equavilent money you can seriously better like a pro load or an RBCD round.

[eap]

don't waste your money. their are better products on the market. i prefer gold dot. so do ALOT of police.

[guy sajer]

I agree . It's all hype . As stated , it is a good bullet . There are definitely equal or better ones available .

I wouldn't pay extra for them .

Winchester voluntarily pulled them from the retail market after the NAACP applied the race card and threatened to expose Winchester as a racist company ["black"talon]. And then the media picked it up as a cop killer bullet designed to penetrate ballistic vests because of the sharp talons that ripped and shredded as the bullet enters.

Believe it or not , both scenarios are true .

[Jimmy Mac]

They are overated. The 9mm rounds bullet is too heavy.

The bullets do really expand well but not really that much better than other quality rounds.

It is also possible some lawyer could make a big deal about them if you did have to shoot some crackhead with one.

[gaijin]

The evil Black Talons can be purchased new by simply buying Winchester SXT ammo.

SXT is Winchester's subtle way of telling you they are the Same eXact Thing (SXT) as the Black Talon.

[john kilgore]

My My!!!
What internet gun lore!

1. SXT now has 6 "petals, old "Black Talon" had 8. (At least the ones I'm holding in my hand and in the Glock on my waist- former and present Dept. Issue)- They are different, but minor differences.

2. "Claws or Talons" shread Ballistic Vests??? Come on now!, even you are believing the hype. In numerous bullet recoveries, (from road injured deer and wild pigs), I haven't seen the claws, -only folded under sections of bullet jacket, not much different than any other pre-cut jacketed bullet. As for penetrating vests, they fare no better against a Class II, II-A, of III vests than any other hollow point ammo. Definitely nothing close to a NATO spec. 124gr fmj, and even they don't penetrate most vests. Only place claws show up consistently is in Ballistic Gelatin. My experience is that neither expand reliably from the "short bbl" guns (in .40), but act like flat nose FMJ's, which after all, is not really all that bad either, but then FMJ's are MUCH cheaper ! This is why so many L.E. agencies with .40's have gone to 155gr bullets such as GoldDot and Hydroshock w/.40. Others have abandoned the 9mm for .40, or .357Sig seeking better wound ballistics.

3. After the media storm, Winchester ceased the packaging of the 8-petal Black coated bullets as Talon, and limited sales and packaging to SXT (Same eXact Thing ?) until they had exhausted their stocks of the Black bullets. They continued with the production of the 6-petal copper finished bullet and still do today. The 6-petal is supposed to perform better in the FBI tests than the original 8-petal, or so says the designer and Winchester L.E. Marketing personnel.

4. +P or non- +P ? If its 9mm, .40, or .45, or .357mag or Sig, it won't be marked +P as it is loaded to SAAMI spec's except for the 127gr SXT +P which is the best 9mm defense load** on the market*. The only faster 9mm load (not including military fmj's) is the Winchester 115+P+, which is loaded with their conventional 9mm bullet -same as USA 115 JHP load, except to higher pressure/velocity. The .38 spl IS marked +P per SAAMI standards.

Like others have said; not the best (except the 127+P, IMO*), and definitely not the worst.
BUT CERTAINLY THE MOST HYPED !

*(maybe the 124+P Hydroshok, or 124 GoldDot, but they are very close )
**- Not intended to compare 9mm to .40,.45, or .357's; but in reality are not that much diffenent when compared to .30/06, 7.62x39mm, 12ga, or such!
(Not looking to make or take flames, -but if I know Im going to a fight, my Staff/Patrol car has both a .12ga and a XM15 with several 30rd magazines)

[Mike H]

Oh Lord here we go again with the Black Talon saga.

And for the millionth time, the STANDARD Wichester Supreme SXT (Supreme Expansion Technology) round is NOT THE SAME AS THE BLACK TALON, but see below.

A very quick summary before the Internet Gods shuts down TFL forever.

1. Original Black Talon - average performance JHP, bettered in its day by many, victim of journalistic hype for alleged armor piercing qualities it never possessed.

2. Withdrawn from sale to mere mortals.

3. Replaced for LEO only sale by the RANGER SXT a slightly revised but similarly Lubalox (black) coated round that is significantly different from the ordinary SXT which Winchester continued to sell in black boxes, seemingly to the continued success of fooling people.

4. Ranger Talon - Improved version of Ranger SXT - available as a 127 grain +P+ in 9mm. Almost certainly the best 9mm load ever designed anywhere. Also Lubalox coated.

5. Ranger T series - further improved version, lost the Lubalox coating. 147 grain load now also an excellent choice.

Gunbroker sellers often sell the Ranger SXT and sometimes the Ranger Talon as "Black Talons" which is ironic, since both the former are superior to the latter in every respect. It's just that the ill informed still want the Black Talon mega killers, and the sellers play to their ill advised desires with products that are actually superior.

Bottom line, if you want the best 9mm out there, go with the Ranger Talon 127 grain +P+, the 147 grain T Series is an excellent second choice.

Wonder if this is my last post ever ?

Mike H

[dsk]

I did some ballistic tests using .45ACP Black Talons when they first came out. They opened up well and turned into a very nasty-looking mushroom with sharp spikes sticking out of the sides. Aside from that however they didn't seem to be capable of anything else but poking surgeons who tried to remove them from the victim. I never adopted them as my daily carry load even prior to the media flap, opting instead for the tried-and-true CCI "Flying Ashtray" and then later the Federal Hydra-Shok.

BTW speaking of evil bullets, anybody else remember the "Black Rhino" ammuniton? There went another media frenzy, fueled in no small part by the bullet's own designer. :rolleyes:

[Don Gwinn]

Mr. Kilgore, read carefully before you go off on people, please. Mr. Sajer very clearly did not say that he believes that Black Talons penetrate ballistic vests. He said that the media hyped the Black Talon as both a horribly deadly expanding round and a penetrator of ballistic vests because, they said, it had razor-sharp extending claws that would rip apart everything in its path like a buzzsaw.

He is absolutely right. That is precisely what they did. The fact that they were wrong to do so was not mentioned, probably because he thought that was so self-evident as to require no comment.

And whether anyone wants to believe it or not, there were several "Black Leaders" who protested the Black Talon even before the media picked up their "Super-Penetrating-Super-Expanding-Killer-bullet" theory. In fact, I remember at least one national figure stating that he was certain that the name "Black Talon" was a bit of subtle "code-speak" from the NRA to its members that here was good ammunition for shooting black people before they could rape the white women.
That the round was not manufactured by or connected to the NRA seemed not to bother him in the least. :rolleyes: