Super Calibers

[George Hill]

I was watching Ghost and the Darkness last night. Good movie.

This got me thinking about those mondo huge caliber rifles they use over there to Drop things like pissed off charging elephants and Rhinos with one shot.
Bolts and Doubles - all good.
I went through a couple sources and looked for information on those rifles.

Seems these suckers go for THOUSANDS of dollars. And the CARTRIDGES go for what I pay for a BOX of shells in my usual calibers.
Honestly I cant afford to even CONSIDER owning one!
But I think I am starting to want one.

Would it be possible to BUILD one - cheaply on say a REM WIN RUG or Browning action?
A 45 or bigger - like 505 Gibbs?

Has anyone done such a thing?
Perhaps I'll query McBros on this matter...


I cant explain justify or rationaluze why I'ld even WANT such a thing. Certainly its more gun that needed in North America... And unless I win a sweepstake - I am not expecting to go to Africa for a Safari during this lifetime. I have no reason to want this... I just do. I understand I can buy .50BMG cheaper - and that is a more logical choice for some reason. But no. I want an African Super Caliber rifle. With a brown wood stock. (I own no brown long guns)

[416Rigby]

George, congratulations for having been bitten by one of the most fascinating bugs in the shooting world!

I had several rifles built in many of those fascinating calibers, and I am still in one piece, financially at least ;)

Rifle-wise, perhaps the most versatile starting point is a Ruger #1, which can be re-chambered and re-barreled for virtually anything between the 22LR and the 600 Nitro.

Some of the many advantages of the Ruger are its very classic Farquahrson action (the famous Selous, Taylor st al. hunted their elephant with a "Farky") and its inherent strength. You can actually still find many original Farquahrsons by Rigby, Gibbs etc. floating around, but a Ruger is a much cheaper and stronger investment.

There is a shop called Broad Creek Rifle Works (302) 875 5446 that specializes in such work and will re-chamber your Ruger for anything you want - doing a bang-up job for very little money - accuracy guaranteed!

Cartridge-wise, if you are a reloader, you shouldn't have ANY problem rolling your own Nitro Express cartridges for a very modest initial investment (brass and dies). The bullets are made by many firms, but check out Hawk Labs and, naturally, Woodleigh (carried by Huntington and now even by Midway!). The brass is available from Huntington, Old Western Scrounger, Midway, Graf Sales and many others.

As far as specific cartridges, if you want to stay away from the "typical" 416s and 375s, you may want to take a look at the 450/400 Nitro Express (.411 dia, 400-gr 2150fps). The various 450 Nitros (that have the advantage of taking standard .458 dia bullets), the legendary 465 Holland, the wonderful 470 and the confidence-inspiring 475 and 475 #2 all have the same ballistics: a 480 or 500-gr slug at approx 2150f/s.

The next group starts to be more specialized, namely the 500 N.E. and the bolt-action counterparts, viz. 505 and 500.

I think that a nice 450/400 (with which you can actually fire lighter, faster bullets) or the never-dying 470 would make a terrific choice for the "introduction" to the wonderful world of African calibers.

You can actually use them for general North American hunting, especially in woods or brush. Kick is a lot less than most of the Weatherbys, and killing power is good without being as "distructive" as some of the more modern hi-vel stuff.

If you would like any more information, please feel free. I like to share my favorite subject.

Good luck and welcome to the club, old boy!

[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 28, 2000).]

[anodes]

Hi George, Ditto! Why so dang much? I mean it's just a couple of tubes. Same for the double shotguns, way more than pumps or autos. Still the romance gets me, too. BTW, I have that movie on tape.

My thought is this; start with a nice double shotgun, like my engraved Spainish Double 10 ga; get about 4 bbl blanks, like 2-.375 & 2 .470; chamber the bbls, may want to change to rimmed cartridge for the .375; weld 'um together, use caution to regulate them properly (regulate as in bullets flight path is just out of parallel, bullets cross at ~75 to 100 yrds) this is presumably the hard part; make extractors. Bingo! A double rifle worthy of the meanest critters!

Or just buy the Kreighoff (?) @ ~$4900, the cheapest new double I've seen.
anodes.

[AndABeer]

Slightly off topic but I was in "my" gun shop yesterday researching prices for "safari" calibers and the guy whips out a magazine ad showing a bolt action double rifle. Craziest gun I ever laid eyes on. It fed from what can be termed a "true detachable double column magazine" as each column had its own box and fed a different barrel. Each time you worked the bolt it reloaded both barrels. Prices started at 30,000. What a world we live in. Maybe if I win two lotteries....

[George Hill]

Now why didnt I think of the #1?

I shot one in .338 Win Mag and remember seeing them on other giant calibers as well.

In fact I think you could order one in a Nitro Express caliber...

Thanks Rigby! AndABeer - I dont think I'ld go into that gun shop anymore... Sounds addicting.



[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited June 28, 2000).]

[dZ]

here is the Ruger #1 caliber list: http://www.ruger-firearms.com/rfsingle.html
.218 Bee
.22 Hornet
.223
.22-250
.220 Swift
6mm Rem.
.243 Win.
.257 Roberts
.25-06
.270 Win.
.270 Wby. Mag.
.280
7mm Rem. Mag.
7x57mm
.30-06
.300 Win. Mag.
.300 Wby. Mag.
.338 Win. Mag.
.375 H&H Mag.
.416 Rigby
.416 Rem. Mag.
.458 Win. Mag.
.45-70

the big calibers are model:

No. 1 Tropical
1-H
40 1/4"
24" barrel
9 lb
$774.00

no 577 tranosaur http://www.accuratereloading.com/577tyr.html
:(

dZ

[dZ]

heres an A-Square Hannibal 416 Rigby http://www.conjay.com/A-Square%20Rifles.htm

ever see a bolt action British AR15? http://www.conjay.com/Olympic%20Match%20E2.htm

dZ

[Futo Inu]

416, Using those rifles for NA game, for less tissue destruction and less recoil than the super .300s, etc., is very intriguing and sounds very practical with shorter distances - do many people hunt with such big boys in the US?

[dZ]

heres some a-square ammo prices: http://www.springbokinc.com/a-square1.htm

577 TYRANNOSAUR
750 grains
DEAD TOUGH SOFT POINT
10 round WALLET
$153.75

15 bucks a round!
yikes

that makes the 416 remington cheap at 20 rounds for 85 bucks

$3500 for an A-square rifle http://www.springbokinc.com/a-square.htm

[Bob Locke]

I've read many good things about the .470 also. Lots of power, not that bad on recoil (someone compared it to a 12-ga. slug gun).

If I'm dropping that sort of dough for a rifle, it's gonna be for a Barret Light 50! Like you said, a little more in line with what you would ever use it for.

[416Rigby]

Futo,

An increasing number of them do. As African safaris get less expensive, brass and bullets get more available, and books on Africa become more widespread among enthusiasts, there is a resurgence of interest in these old classics, as well as the "big, slow bullet" theory epithomized by the large Nitro Express cartridges.

Even our own rifle and cartridge manufacturers are churning out new versions of old calibers along those lines. Look at Andy Garrett's super-duper 45-70 (almost a 450 Nitro Express in a handy package).

Some bullet manufacturers, like Hawk Labs and Barnes, have similarly detected this trend and now produce different weights and shapes for the old Nitros (like the 470). Clearly, they cater to the custom single-shot market, as they know that old doubles can use a single weight-velocity combination. However, the custom-market for single shot rifles in these old, magnificent cartridges, is getting brisker and brisker, as people discover that a 450/400 Nitro Ruger #1 can not only turn a lot of interested eyes at the range, but also flatten anything in North America with moderate recoil and kill at amazingly long distances with the 300-gr bullet hurled at the better part of 2,650f/s.

Sure, these cartridges are still a specialist's number. But that's what makes them more attractive. If the 338WIN is a wonderful cartridge, the 333 Nitro Express can duplicate it to a T, plus adding the joy of research, history, uniqueness and mistique to the experience.

So, to summarize, yes. People do use them in NA (I do for one, and never found them lacking). The problem with me is that the more I shoot them, the more I love them and the more the rifles in my more "ordinary" calibers stay on the shelf..... :D

[NJW]

As others have said already, the ammo is a big thing ($) unless you reload. That is the approach I took when I was looking for a big boomer.

As a reloader, I focused more on components than loaded ammo. Allot of what I will call the odd caliber's (nothing derogatory intended) have very xpensive components. When you start adding the multiple dollar amounts for a singel case and a single bullet it can get expensive. The way I looked at it, I wanted something that I could afford to shoot some without going broke. I found that when you were shooting odd calibered bullets, they were hard to find and expensive.

What did I do? Picked up a used Ruger #1H in .458 Win Mag and had it rechambered to .460 Weatherby. So rather than paying over a thousand for a Weatherby bolt I ended up with a .460 for $425 (cost of the rifle and the rechamber job). Yes, brass is about $2 a case but it is easily obtainable from different places. Since it is not an odd caliber, the price of .45 cal bullets is much better than allot of the others. Reload data is easily avalable to load for it etc...

Basiclaly I have a big boomer that I didn't go broke buying and I don't go broke shooting it either.

Sure, I would love to have some big odd ball caliber that costs $20 a round to shoot but my kids got to eat :0).

NJW in AZ

[George Hill]

I was thinking further about this - and was reading some liturature on the matter...
I dont know if a Ruger #1 would be wise.

Should I ever venture to Africa - You never know - I could win a lottery... And I had a Lion tag... I would then want a fast follow up shot. Doubles are just too much. This means Bolt Action. With a Bolt gun you can fire a second round the same time you recover from that recoil.

3 or 4 rounds in a magazine would be very nice and comforting when that Rhino looks at you like your a pinata.

[416Rigby]

.....Yes, but...

Nothing like the single-shot sportsmanlike concept for the awesome plains game!

An entry-level African safari for a package that includes 1 Kudu, 1 Zebra or Wildebeest, 1 Impala, 1 Warthog and 1 other animal depending on areas can cost as low as $3,000.

I am myself planning one, and I am taking 2 rifles:

1 - A 1910-vintage .375 Nitro Express double rifle;

2 - A ruger #1 in .416 Rigby which I had re-sighted by New England Firearms with a nice single-leaf express sight.

Yes, dangerous game is nice (and very expensive). But don't rule out the majestic, beautiful and tough (pound for pound) "common game" that is becoming the heart and soul of the safari industry.

And a single-shot rifle is, in my view, the perfect tool for the job: classic, timeless, sportsmanlike and slightly unusual.

[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 29, 2000).]

[George Hill]

No - what would be real unusual is a 500 Nitro Express autoloading rifle...

[Paul B.]

416. What is the mane of the outfit giving hunts in the $3,000 range? I have not been able to locate any.

George. Get a copy of AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES by John Taylor. He makes mention of the fact that, "Everytime I was out hunting lion, I was armed with a single loader." It is a darn good read on all the old British cartridges with life size drawings of the various rounds.

Looking at the list of cartridges for the #1,I wonder. Didn't Ruger make a run of #1's in .470 N.E.? I'd settle for one in .416 Rigby, as reloadable ammo is made by Federal. Come to think of it, federal also loads the .470.
Actually, unless I was after something that might bite back, I think I'd be perfectly happy with my #1 in .375 H&H, which BTW, is more than adequate for lion.
Speaking of Farquharsons, I finally saw one for sale about 8 months ago at a gun show. It was real minty and in one of the british .450's, I don't remember which one. Guy wanted $4.500 for it. OUCH! To be honest, if I'd had the money, I would have given it a new and good home.
Here is a question. Is it pronounced far-que-harson, or fark-harson? Nobody I know seems to know for sure. I don't care how they pronounce it though, I WANT ONE!
Paul B.

[TaxPhd]

416Rigby,

Tell us about your 1910-vintage .375 Nitro Express double rifle. Is it .375-2 1/2 inch Nitro Express? If so, what kind of performance do you get from it? If it is not this odd ball caliber, is it in .375 Flanged Magnum (I know you said Nitro Express, and I am sure you know of what you speak, but to a lot of people, any double rifle in a British caliber is a "Nitro Express"). We want details! You've got me drooling all over my keyboard!

[416Rigby]

Paul B,

To answer your first question, all you have to do is to consult "Safari" magazine and browse the many ads of the myriads of outfitters that advertise African hunting trips. Unfortunately, all my copies are at home (I'm at work) otherwise I'd give you a few names.

Farquharson is pronounced "Farkyson" (hence the nickname "farky"). I have it on good aothority: Piers Crump from John Rigby and Co.

TaxPHD, I was actually very excited when I purchased that double rifle. It has a quite interesting history. It was made in 1910 in London by Cogswell & Harrison for a Capt. R. D. McLeod, British Army, who apparently picked it up just after new year's eve, and steamed off to India.

That particular gentleman later became part of the BEF in WWII and was killed in 1916. Iwas able to get this information from the gentleman who now runs Cogswell & Harrison, Mr. Allan Crewe.

After that records were lost. Nearly eighty years later, that rifle made its way into my gun cabinet. I had it thoroughly checked by J.J. Perudeau at Champlin Arms, who turned out an exact duplicate load of the original 375NE, and gave me a signed target.

The specs of the load are: .375 Flanged Nitro Express, 2 1/2" straight case, introduced in 1899. It fired a 270-gr .375 bullet at exactly 2,000 f/s. I have been able to load every shape bullet in that weight without altering the performance.

I load it with Bertram brass, RCBS dies and IMR 3031 powder.

Unlike what is most said about doubles, mine is amazingly accurate. I have the utmost confidence in it, have killed plenty of game with it and never found it lacking. It comes up like a well-balanced shotgun, the sight-picture is a dream, and recoil is nigligible due mostly to the impeccable balance. It is one of the few things I will never part with. It has very nice wood, beautiful scroll engraving and a silver heel and toe.

My friend and Professional Hunter John Abrahams of Madubula Safaris (Dundee, South Africa) is also a double-rifle man, and warmly recommended that I take this .375 Nitro after plains game. According to him, that rifle-cartridge combination would be well-nigh ideal for game such as Kudu in dense brush. :D

BTW, I read that Elmer Keith also had such a rifle in the same caliber, and loved it too.



[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 30, 2000).]

[KilgorII]

KUDU!!!! Avoid places that harbor that African disease!!! :eek:

(kidding) :)

[TaxPhd]

416Rigby,

Have you got a phone # for Safari magazine? (If it is Safari Club International's publication, I can probably locate it myself)

Your rifle sounds most wonderful!! Is it a side or boxlock? If boxlock, did Cogswell and Harrison use their own action, or is it built on a Webley & Scott like so many other doubles of its day?

I've been wanting to make a trip to Champlin Arms for quite some time now, but I have avoided it, as my finances would probably take an irrecoverable beating! :) But, the wife is pretty understanding about such things. Maybe in a few years.

As a double rifle shooter, what is your take on the Krieghoff, with its strange under the thumb cocking lever?

Thanks for the info!!

[416Rigby]

TaxPHD, unfortunately I don't have the info here.... However, I was able to look up another publication, "Safari times" (520) 620-1220, one of the official SCI monthly.

As an example, I saw a 7-day, 1x1 Namibia hunt for $3750 including Greater Kudu, Oryx, Warthog, Steenbock or Duiker (Far West International, 406-655-0088); this price-range is not at all uncommon, and it even goes down for a 2x1 hunt.

As far as my rifle, it is a boxlock made entirely by Cogswell & Harrison.

If you get the chance, a trip to Enid, OK is really worth it. Even if you can't afford anything at the time, it will give you an excellent "education" about double rifles. I was lucky enough to be in England when Rigby & Co. was still located in South London, and I cherish the memory of getting "indoctrinated" about the finer points of double rifles, of which they had a very good inventory.

Lastly, all I have heard about Krieghoff is positive. As a matter of fact, I was speaking about it yesterday with a colleague who knows the firm very well, and he had nothing but praise about their rifles and shotguns. Instead, Merkel, another renown German brand, seems to put out better shotguns than they do doubles.

Thing is, you can buy a nice used British double for about 6,000 - and its resale value would always be better. That's what has stopped me so far from acquiring a new double (...that AND the cost!!! :eek: ).

[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 30, 2000).]