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View Full Version : Why aren't Glocks more ergonomic?


PaladinX13
November 6, 2002, 12:14 AM
I don't actually know anyone that prefers a glock grip... only hate, tolerate, or feint indifference. It wouldn't be hard to change... why doesn't Glock do it? I just don't get it. I imagine there are a ton of people that are in love with the Glock in their mind but once they hold it, their hands hate it. It doesn't have to be the way it is... yet it is. Why? Oh why?

croyance
November 6, 2002, 12:17 AM
More ergonomic? Boy, don't you know?! It's already Glock Perfection! You can't improve on perfection.

Cee-Zed
November 6, 2002, 12:20 AM
Someone beat me to it! It's not often that you find a cheap shot just lying there, begging to be taken...

PaladinX13
November 6, 2002, 12:30 AM
I don't mean it as a dig, I just don't understand why. Is it a market recognition thing? Licensing? Backwards compatibility? Not in touch with the consumer base? Do they believe they'd lose money making more ergonomic grips?

I dunno, I can usually follow the logic of why a gun is one way or another, this one I don't understand....

croyance
November 6, 2002, 12:40 AM
Well, I really don't believe that Glock wants to change the look and feel of their product. How long did it take for them to go single-stack? Not the most difficult engineering change, and you need new tooling and lines for a new pistol anyway.
Then again, look at the Luger, same extreme grip angle. Maybe they saw it as the way to go.
As for the blockiness, I think they (Europeans) see a gun strictly as a tool, and see no need for improved aethetics or ergonomics.

caz223
November 6, 2002, 12:41 AM
They don't percieve that there's a 'problem', so why would they try to fix it.
I still think it's the grape kool-aid.

Zundfolge
November 6, 2002, 12:53 AM
I don't actually know anyone that prefers a glock grip

:confused:

How long you been hanging around here? I know at least a dozen or so people who swear Gaston Glock snuck into their homes at night and took plaster casts of their hands to be used to design the Glock grip.

I still prefer the grip of my Steyr M40, but the Glock grip isn't all that bad.

Daniel Watters
November 6, 2002, 01:01 AM
The main source of their problem is their chunky polymer magazine tubes. With metal magazines of the same external depth and girth as their polymer 9x19mm/.40 S&W mags, you could instead accomodate cartridges as long as the .45ACP, 10x25mm, and the .38 Super. The .45 ACP/10x25mm Glock mags are even worse.

The other issue is the grip angle. Someone more than likely designed its 'pointing' characteristics based upon 'instictive' hip shooting instead of aimed/sighted fire.

To their credit, Glocks are have:

a low bore axis (easy to control under recoil)
decent accuracy (some models better than others)
extremely easy maintenance
excellent reliability (with some spectacular exceptions)

Prior to the '94 Crime Bill, they were also relatively inexpensive and generally possessed a higher mag capacity than most of its service pistol rivals (particularly with the .40 S&W, 10x25mm, and .45 ACP models). To be honest, I don't think that the Glock pistols would be as popular today if they had been introduced after 1994 and/or at today's prices. I've owned four Glocks, and I sort of miss them. However, I don't miss them enough to pay the current retail prices to replace them.

teombe
November 6, 2002, 01:14 AM
I'm probably an anomaly (or at least I'm made to feel that way), but my G19 grip fits my hand better than the p99 I just sold, hands down. I have single stacks that I like better, but haven't had my hands on a more comfortable double stack.

Nickler
November 6, 2002, 01:15 AM
I have a Ruger Mark II, a CZ-75, a S&W 3913, a Sig P228, and a Glock 17. The Glock fits my hand the best out of all five of those pistols.


I guess my hands are just funny.

Schuey2002
November 6, 2002, 01:41 AM
You can improve on a Glock.If Glock made a pistol with
the ergonomical grip of,say a "Walther P99",then Glock guns
would be more,well,"perfect"......;)

9x19
November 6, 2002, 01:55 AM
Well... to cast a dissenting vote:

If its a third generation grip, it fits me to a "T".

I really like the way it feels in my hand... rock solid and it points well for me too.

Glock Perfection... so far its been true for me!

Guess that's why I have another 26, a 29 and a 30 enroute this week! :p

Yeah... baby! :D

BamBam-31
November 6, 2002, 02:08 AM
Same here. My G19 fits my hand great. Ergonomics on this baby is definitely a plus!

Then again, your hands aren't my hands, my preferences aren't your preferences, etc.

Kind of off topic: Why are people so hung up on Glock's "Perfection" slogan? It's just a marketing thing, obviously. I don't think anyone buying Glocks really believes they're buying "perection" just as HK buyers don't really believe HK never compromises on anything, ad nauseum.

Glocks are Glocks. Reliable, combat accurate, simple, relatively inexpensive. Good traits for a self-defense weapon, I'd say.

Cee-Zed
November 6, 2002, 02:26 AM
"Why are people so hung up on Glock's "Perfection" slogan? It's just a marketing thing, obviously."

Is that a real or rhetorical question?

I will assume it is real. The "Perfection" slogan makes an assertion about the nature of human existence that is patently false. It is more than a marketing slogan. Essentially, it is an assertion that human beings can make something perfect, and Glock succeeded in doing so.

People often give examples of false advertising to assert that it is a marketing slogan, pure and simple. For example, "at Ford, quality is job one." I agree that at Ford selling automobiles and turning a profit is job one. This misses my point. At Ford, quality COULD be job one, but it isn't. Nothing made by human beings CAN be perfect; therefore, Glock has pushed this much further.

I don't have a problem with Glock pistols. The "Glock Perfection" slogan makes me sick. Nothing is "just" this or "just" that. You don't have to think like I do; you don't even have to respect my opinion. You asked, and I answered. I have brought this up before at TFL, and I have been essentially told to "get a life." If that is the level of critical thinking amongst firearms owners, no wonder the media can get away with portraying us as Neanderthals.

Schuey2002
November 6, 2002, 02:37 AM
Cee-Zed,

Point well taken.:)

Drjones
November 6, 2002, 02:59 AM
I know at least a dozen or so people who swear Gaston Glock snuck into their homes at night and took plaster casts of their hands to be used to design the Glock grip.

Funny, Beretta musta done the same for me!!! :D

Mylhouse
November 6, 2002, 03:57 AM
Daniel Watters' last point is a damn good one. I had never thought of that.

croyance
November 6, 2002, 05:03 AM
Why are people so hung up on Glock's "Perfection" slogan? Well, anybody making the statement that they are perfect are asking for any and all responces. If you say it, you should be able to back it up.
As for Glocks, I can live with them, but find them ugly. I dislike the trigger feel also, although I admit I am just as accurate with a Glock as most other guns. So it is definitely not perfect.

edamon2k
November 6, 2002, 05:33 AM
no better grip then the sig p226. Comparing that to a glock is like comparing a running sneaker to a running clog. haha.

-d

denfoote
November 6, 2002, 06:22 AM
I don't actually know anyone that prefers a glock grip

Can you say G L O C K 36??? :rolleyes:

Come on, I know you can!! ;)

Say it with me: G L O C K 36. :cool:

kahrma
November 6, 2002, 09:13 AM
Bokchoi,
I know exactly what you mean! I would like to buy a G-19 but the grip just doesn't fit as well as some of the other 9mms out there.

My Ruger P-95 fits me better than a Glock! You know you have problems when Ruger can beat you in the ergonomics dept
:D

kahrma
November 6, 2002, 09:15 AM
I will say this for the Glocks, the grip angle is perfect! I thrust the gun out in front and the sights are RIGHT on target. All guns should have this grip angle.

Jimmy Mac
November 6, 2002, 09:45 AM
The Glock grip angle was designed to fit the vast majority of shooters. That it does.

If you are used to something else it will not fit you.

PaladinX13
November 6, 2002, 11:39 AM
I don't have a problem with the grip angle, I just don't like holding the grip itself.

I have no question that it works (I pull the trigger on my brother's, it goes bang and is still in my hand) but I didn't realize that there are some that actually would opt for a Glock grip on other guns if it were possible... or do these people only have Glocks or are self-delusional? I guess I'd have to be silly to go that far to support my original thesis, so like a rational being I'll change my point of view. Daniel basically answered my question (while others were mainly focused on a point in that question), thanks!

I've held other things, like hammers, knives, handles bars, etc. and I can't imagine WANTING a Glock-grip on them (and have never seen anything close to one on another type of tool) while they're much closer approximation to some other gun grips. I've never held a tool with a Glock-like grip (aside from a Glock, of course)... but I can't say the same for SIGs, CZ, P99, etc. Just an observation.

I guess I'll look into the G36... never held one of those.

pogo2
November 6, 2002, 02:15 PM
I agree with the original premise that the Glock grips are not perfect. Maybe this depends on the exact configuration of your hands, but I find that the grips on my two Glocks (19 and 23) are a little uncomfortable after shooting several magazines. I think it is because the cross section of the grip is more rectangular than oval, and the corners on the rectangle hit my fingers in the wrong place for comfort. I use the Glocks a lot, and like their other features, but simply tolerate the grips.

Some other guns have very comfortable grips for my hands. Some of my favorites are a Sig P229, an H&K USP .45, and most 1911's. Many revolvers also have comfortable grips, especially those with the rubber finger groove grips from Hogue or equivalent. If you look closely at all these, the grip cross section is oval, without any sharp corners. I would think Glock could do this if they wanted to.

RdNckMaterialCulture
November 6, 2002, 02:22 PM
I think the grips on the first two generations are very well-angled blocks, but still blocks. The 3rd gens are very well-angled blocks...with finger grooves.

GunFool
November 6, 2002, 02:40 PM
What!? Are you kidding? My G19's fit my hand perfectly! I only have to twist it a little to get the mag release, which is about the way I wan't it as well. No complaints here.

Cowdogpete
November 6, 2002, 02:58 PM
Excuse me for being ignorant (maybe uneducated is better...I'm not a big Glock fan) but I thought that grip was part of the appeal of a Glock. Now I personally hate the angle, but thats my training and personal preference talking. I hate the angle on my Ruger Mark II for that matter, even though I love that little gun.

I'm die hard 1911 myself and if I shoot it for a while, then pickup a Glock the first time i try to get sight picture the gun is pointed up at the sky. I HATE THAT! But if you're used to it then its a non-issue. I guess when you glock guys try out a 1911 its pointed at the ground until you adjust for the angle.

Rich357
November 6, 2002, 03:36 PM
You could ask why isn HK doesn't fit the hand better. Or, why the Colt 1911 A1 doesn't your hand better.

I think SIG has better shaped grips than Glock, but, I think Glock grips are at least as good as HK and close to the Colt 1911 A!.

To each his own. That is why there are so many different pistols.

Rich

Handy
November 6, 2002, 04:18 PM
They created a simple grip that nobody loves but is hard to hate. If it doesn't hurt or throw off your accuracy, it's reliable enough.

It's a far easier grip for a wide number of hand sizes to use. Walther might be a better grip, but the gun maker went to the trouble of making several different parts to assure this. I've never heard a big or small hand person say the grip was too difficult to shoot with. The Beretta 92 IS too big for many.

amprecon
November 6, 2002, 04:39 PM
No persons hands are the same as anothers. I've owned a G17, a G36, a Colt Gov't .380, a 1911A1 (flat mainspring housing), Kahr K9, Browning Buckmark, S&W 2214, several revolvers and two G21's. Of these guns, the G21 fits me perfectly, second place would have to go to the Kahr. I did not like the G17's grip, just not fat enough.

19114EVER
November 6, 2002, 04:48 PM
Why aren't Glocks more ergonomic? Why? Because they're double stack. Because they're boxy plastic toys. I don't think much thought was put into the ergonomics of Glocks. A lot of thought was put into the Beretta 92F. That firearm just feels plain nice in my hand. If you want ergonomics, try a 92F or a 1911 with a nice beavertail grip safety. HK's are ergo too, as far as polymer goes.

cheifwatchman
November 6, 2002, 09:04 PM
At gunshows I fondle grips. I look at how my fingers line up on the grip. Middle, ring, & pinky fingers. All double stack 9mm are the same width. Glock 17, Beretta 92, Browning HP, Sig 226, & HK USP9 F. My fingers line up the same. Any difference is in your head. Because of the finger groves I like the third gen Glock 17 better than my second gen Glock 17.

BamBam-31
November 6, 2002, 10:05 PM
Cee-Zed,

No offense, but others are correct in asserting that "you need to get a life." Glock's slogan IS just marketing, nothing more. You read too much into it, projecting hubristic hallucinations onto Glock because of a simple slogan.

Are Glocks perfect? No. Does Glock really believe their handguns are mechanically perfect? If they did, they wouldn't be up to their necks in repairs right now. Can a human being create something perfect? Maybe. Define perfect. Then define it with respect to art, philosophy, music, etc. Mechanically, Glocks are obviously machines and therefore fallible. Anyone with a pulse knows this; no one really believes Glocks are mechanically perfect, including Glock.

Their slogan is an appeal to gun snobbery. Elitism. God knows this is not the first firearms company to make that kind of appeal, nor will they be the last. They do it because for whatever reason it works with gun buyers. In a big way.

Same with cars. BMW claims their cars are "the ultimate driving machines." Lexus' slogan is "the passionate pursuit of perfection" (there's that P-word again). And yet, their cars come with warranties, no? It's an appeal to snobbery, not a declaration of de facto perfection. Marketing, in other words.

Glock Perfection IS just a slogan, nothing more. Get over it.

Cee-Zed
November 6, 2002, 10:14 PM
"No offense, but others are correct in asserting that 'you need to get a life.'"

If that is not the most insincere tripe I have ever read, I don't know what is. No offense, but spare me your disingenuous, thinly-veiled insults.

BamBam-31
November 6, 2002, 10:22 PM
Hey, tripe is good! You should try it in Pho Dac Biet! :D

M58
November 6, 2002, 10:52 PM
Hogue needs a market.
So does AGRIP.

JohnKSa
November 6, 2002, 10:54 PM
A lot of ergonomics in handguns is what you're used to.

My first gun, a Ruger GP100 still feels very "right" in my hand it also points naturally.

Of my semis, the Glock grip angle works best for me. When I grip the gun normally, close my eyes and bring the gun up to shooting position, the sights are perfectly aligned--that's what I mean by pointing naturally.

I generally play games with my other pistols until I get grips that make them point to the same natural aim that the Glocks do. The guns that work well without grip dinking are:

Glock 17
Glock 20
Walther PPK
Makarov
GP100

Mylhouse
November 7, 2002, 12:56 AM
Mmmmmmmmm.....Pho Tai..............drool!!!

9x19
November 7, 2002, 01:32 AM
Cee-Zed,

No insult intended, veiled or otherwise, but I also think you are reading too much into a simple statement... in fact I think the statement is being mis-read.

In such a simple statement, I think the order of the words tells the tale. The way I see it, the word "Glock" modifies the word "Perfection".

So I take the slogan, "Glock Perfection", to mean: Perfection, according to Glock... rather than Glock has created Perfection for everyone.

pax
November 7, 2002, 07:03 PM
Glock grips don't fit everyone.

Standard 1911 grips don't fit everyone out of the box, either, but the grips are much more capable of being modified than a Glock grip is.

Yeah, you can melt and reform your Glock grip ... to a certain point. But if the Glock grip doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you and there's really not a lot you can do about it.

Glock grips don't fit everyone, but that doesn't mean they don't fit anyone.

I like 'em.

pax

bad_dad_brad
November 7, 2002, 07:35 PM
I think if you have small hands and are handling the generation 1 or 2 Glocks, or a double stack .45 or 10MM Glock, you might have ergonomic problems, i.e. the feel like holding a brick.

But the new generation 3 Glocks fit my small hands perfectly (G17 and G19) and I think it is one of the most ergonomicaly correct handguns ever. Let us not forget that great low center of gravity also. The slide is really low.

But I understand the complaint if you are talking about G1 or G2 Glocks. I never took to the Glock until that new grip came along.

45Rookie
November 7, 2002, 08:08 PM
They do make an ergonomic Glock.....its coded as the P99............(oh boy!!!! here it comes :D ) It was developed in 1994. :)

Actually the generation 3s are pretty darn ergo. Comes with finger grooves and the whole nine yards. You might just want to stay with the single stack Glocks.

Respectfully

45R

Brasso
November 7, 2002, 09:50 PM
You can pick up a glock. Hold it. Shoot it. And after a while you could come to the conclusion that the grip, angle and all, is pretty good.......until you pick up something else. And your world of perfection is blown all to hell and back.


Seriously, as long as you started on a glock and don't shoot anything else you'll be fine.

I like the glocks. I just can't bring myself to love them, mainly due to the grips (blockiness and grip angle).

TreeSquid
November 8, 2002, 10:20 AM
Heh. Exactly what part of "you need to get a life" is not supposed to be an insult?

As for people saying that glocks have lame grips because they're double-stack, my CZ-75 feels like someone liquified jesus and made a gun out of him. Best ergonomics of any gun I've handled.

I'll agree that Glocks have serviceable grips that are well-angled, but I would never call them comfortable. For those Glock-grip-lovers out there (double-stack pistols only, please, for the sake of comparison, as I own no single-stack guns) would you say that you have large or small hands? I have large, thin hands and long fingers, and find Glock grips too poor to ever pay money for. I'm wondering if hand size is a factor, or if it's just totally subjective.

Big Al
November 8, 2002, 10:46 AM
I like my gen III Glock 19 grip a whole lot, but I will admit, the Steyr M series feels pretty darn good as well. Mabye even so far as to say (gasp) better.

MolonLabe416
November 8, 2002, 11:10 AM
All it takes is trigger time. I have carried a 3rd gen Glock 23 daily for about 4 or 5 years. Prior to that, I carried a 1911 or a HiPower at various times.

The Glock felt odd at first, but was tolerable in the 3rd gen configuration (the first 2 didn't work at all).

After 4 or 5 years and ~25k rounds, the Glock fits and the 1911 fells odd. Muscle memory and trigger time.

Onslaught
November 8, 2002, 11:11 AM
Sometimes, people just get in a tizzy when you say anything not bubbly-positive with the word "Glock" in the sentence. :p

If Glock's grip was "ergonomic and comfortable for most" then Robar and others wouldn't have the "melting" service, Hogue Handalls wouldn't be found on every other used Glock in a dealer's case, and A-Grip wouldn't have such a rabid following on GlockTalk. (Don't think it's rabid? Just try and post on GT that Decal Grip is better than A-Grip... Wear nomex!)

Not to say that it's not the cat's pajamas for a lot of folks... Some people LOVE 2nd Gens but hate the 3rdgen finger grooves enough to Dremel or sand them off. Some like 'em all, and then there are those that, no matter HOW HARD THEY TRY, they just can't get comfortable with any of them.
I actually do like the feel of the 2nd Gen's, but they still point at the ceiling when I close my eyes and aim. (and my first pistol was a MKII - go figure!)

Quite honestly though, to suggest that a Glock is NOT ergonomic is about as incorrect as saying that it is, because both make an assumption that the grip either fits the vast majority of folks, or that it does NOT fit most. On the other hand, it is quite true to say that the Glock is NOT ergonomic worth a darn for you, or for me either... But that P99 :D (sorry, had to say it again).