Confused about 1911s

[marca]

A few days ago I was looking at some compact 1911s at a local gun shop. I'm new to 1911s. Asked the sales guy exactly how you lower the hammer when there's a round chambered; in other words how do you un-cock a 1911. The guy told me you just gently lower the hammer while holding the trigger down, just like a revolver. Now, as I said I'm new to 1911s but it seems to me you run quite a risk of the gun going BANG if the hammer slips while lowering it. Also makes sense that that if the lowered hammer would take any type of impact, such as dropping the gun, there's a chance of an AD. Am I correct about this? So, how do you decock a 1911?

[BLiTzNicK]

So, how do you decock a 1911?

You don't!;)

[railroader]

!911's are single action and are normally carried cocked with the safety on. Most people don't lower the hammer down on a live round. If you try and recock the hammer in a hurry it could slip. If you want to unload it, drop the mag, then rack the slide ejecting the round. Now check the chamber to make sure it is empty now you can drop the hammer, pointing the gun in a safe direction. If you don't like cocked and locked you can also keep a loaded mag in the pistol and rack the slide as needed. Decocking normally is refering to double action autos. Mark

[Zundfolge]

If you decock a revolver and you slip it goes BANG! (which is bad enough).

If you decock a 1911 and you slip it goes BANG! and breaks your thumb. :eek:

[krept]

so I could be wrong.

I think I can elaborate a little. Not to insult your intelligence, but in case another reader doesn't understand...

1911s are single action pistols, meaning that if the hammer is down on a 1911, it won't fire. This is why the manual safety lever is applied, because when it is in the up position and the grip safety is not depressed, it will also not fire.

The standard operating procedure is to grasp the pistol in single action (safety lever on, aka cocked and locked aka condition 1) and manipulate the safety with your thumb, thus making the weapon ready to fire in single action at the instant the trigger is squeezed.

It is not standard operating procedure to lower the hammer, then to cock the hammer right before you fire. Again, if the hammer is not lowered, it won't go bang. Usually people who want to fire with the hammer down avoid the 1911 and go with a DA or DAO handgun (available with or without a safety lever). If you don't understand those terms, a good place to start would be to use the search fuction.

Thus, you have the standard operating procedure with the 1911... when you are ready to carry the pistol, load it and place the safety on. It will now be in condition one. Continue to carry the pistol this way until A) you fire it or B) you want to clean it, unload it, etc...

You only have to lower the hammer when you get to item "B."

I believe the standard procedure with a 1911 is to (after ensuring all proper safety steps are taken...) eject the magazine, finger way outside of trigger guard, lower the safety lever (disengage it) then rack the slide, thus emptying the chamber. If you want to double check, make sure the magazine is not in the pistol and that there is no cartridge in the chamber (feel) then and only then should you lower the hammer...

The only part there should be even a remote pucker factor about is when you first load it , before the safety is applied and also right after you remove the safety to eject the chambered cartridge. Even then, if you follow the basic safety rule to keep your finger away from the trigger, you will be completely safe.

If you truly feel uneasy with this, it is a good time to look towards another platform than the 1911. Lowering the hammer on a 1911 with a chambered round is possible, but not very smart IMO.

I apologize for the typos, long night (Halloween). Please mention if I'm wrong.

[4V50 Gary]

You can lower the hammer the same way we lower the hammer on a cocked revolver. Here's how you can do it.

1) Keep gun pointed in a safe direction.
2) Place your thumb of your non-dominant hand between the slide and the hammer.
3) With the thumb of your dominant hand, get a good grasp of the hammer.
4) Using your trigger finger on your dominant hand, depress the trigger so as to release the hammer from the sear. Your dominant hand thumb will prevent the hammer from surging forward and your non-dominant hand thumb acts as the safety.
5) Gently control the forward motion of the hammer with your dominant hand thumb. Do this slowly so as to keep the forward momentum down.
6) Slowly withdraw your non-dominant hand thumb.
7) Slowly allow the hammer to come to rest.

I don't know why you asked, but that's how you do it. Be warned that while the hammer is down and resting on the firing pin, a strong jolt can cause a negligent discharge - just like on the Colt Single Action Army revolver. It's not safe to carry a loaded 1911 that does not feature a firing pin block (Colt Series 80 type 1911) with the hammer down on the firing pin.

[dsk]

marca,

You may be new to 1911s, but you also demonstrated that you're smarter than the gun shop clerk to have actually thought of the possibility of an accidental discharge. NEVER attempt to de-cock a loaded 1911! That is a very stupid and unsafe practice. Either carry it chamber empty or cocked & locked.

[Admiral Thrawn]

hmm, as a beginner, I'm starting to go off the 1911 pistols because of this...

What are the safety features of the Sig pistols? I am only familiar with Glocks. :confused:

[meat]

Sigs have what is called a "decocking" lever that is mounted on the side of the frame near the slide release. The decocking lever does exactly what it's name says. It decocks the pistol. If the hammer is back and a round is in the chamber (this is known as single action mode because if you pressed the trigger now the trigger causes 1 action to be performed - it lowers the hammer onto the firing pin), the decocking lever allows the hammer to safely be lowered without the risk of causing the weapon to discharge. Thus, it does all the dangerous work for you safely (if a round is in the chamber) and it removes the more potentially dangerous risks involved w/ manually lowering of the hammer. Double action means that pull of the trigger causes the pistol to perform 2 actions. When you first squeeze the trigger in double action mode, it causes the resting hammer to be drawn back (this is the 1st action). Then, somewhere usually just after about mid squeeze, it prepares to release the hammer after it has been pulled all the way to the release point. Once it reaches the release point of the trigger pull, the hammer is relased and strikes the firing pin (this is the 2nd action). Hence the name "double action" because it causes the hammer to raise and lower in one long trigger pull. Double action pulls are usually longer and heavier because of this. This is why the Sig is known as a DA/SA Semiauto (Double action/Single Action). It can fire in both modes. There are also versions that are DAO or Double Action Only. Hope that this helps.

[CastleBravo]

To answer Marca's question: YOU DON'T. Decocking is something you never have to (or should) do on a 1911 because it is a single-action automatic.

Admiral,

That's a silly statement. Carrying a loaded Glock is functionally the same as a 1911 with all the safties but the firing pin block removed and a worse trigger added. "Decocking" a 1911 makes no sense at all and is a dumb, unsafe practice; it is almost like talking about de-cocking a Glock, since it is something you NEVER need to do.

[meat]

If the cocked and locked carry of the 1911 worries you, just get a Sig 220. It's a great gun that you'll really enjoy.

[fuchikoma]

Carrying a loaded Glock is functionally the same as a 1911 with all the safties but the firing pin block removed and a worse trigger added.

Glocks have a firing pin safety that sits in front of the pin to keep it from going forward, and there's the drop safety, which hooks onto the back of the firing pin, keeping it from moving forward. Both removed when the trigger is pulled.

And I'd say for target shooting, the 1911 has an awesome trigger. For defensive use, I'd take the standard Glock 5.5lb.

[M58]

Skip the 1911.
Get a Sig or HK.

[Pampers]

This is the third or fourth Condition1/Cocked & Locked thread today!

People who do not understand the manual of arms for a 1911, and are therefore afraid of carrying it in Condition 1, for which it was designed, are most likely Hoplophobes and should NEVER be allowed near any gun!

There IS a reason that the 1911 was GI for 80 years. There IS a reason that the 1911 is the sidearm of choice of the most elite LEO and military units!

1911s are like Harleys. If I have to explain, YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!

[AndABeer]

People who do not understand the manual of arms for a 1911, and are therefore afraid of carrying it in Condition 1, for which it was designed, are most likely Hoplophobes and should NEVER be allowed near any gun!

:rolleyes:

[Kopfschmerzen]

are most likely Hoplophobes and should NEVER be allowed near any gun!

hmmm... now, I'll freely admit that I've never seen that word before, so I looked it up on www.dictionary.com , and it lacks that word as well. can you throw a definition at me here?

[VVG]

People who do not understand the manual of arms for a 1911, and are therefore afraid of carrying it in Condition 1, for which it was designed, are most likely Hoplophobes and should NEVER be allowed near any gun! I did not know ANYONE - not a single soldier, who ever carried their M1911A1 in Condition I unless they were walking naked through a Lion's Den. And this was while personally carrying a duty M1911A1 24/7 for 4-6 weeks at a time at a border camp.

Army Special Forces, the Ranger Battalions, and the Navy SEALs no longer carry the M1911. Long before the M1911 was taken out of service, every S.F. guy I knew carried a Browning HP because of host availability of 9mmP. And according to Colonel David Hackworth, the M1911 holds the distinction of having killed more American soldiers than enemy soldiers.

"Hoplo" refers to a tool, weapon, or piece of armor, according to Webster's Unaridged, but the same source does not list "Hoplophobe." They must be
really elite.....

[Boats]

Hackworth? Now there's a source to proudly cite.:barf:

[M1911]

So, how do you decock a 1911?
:rolleyes: You don't. There is absolutely no reason to decock a loaded 1911. There are two ways to safety carry a 1911: 1) condition 1, that is, chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety on, or 2) condition 3, that is, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off.

You are correct that manually lowering the hammer on a 1911 (or any gun) can result in a negligent discharge. In addition, most 1911s are series 70 lockwork, meaning that they do not have a firing pin block. In other words, with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, a sharp blow to the back of the hammer could result in a discharge. Carrying a 1911 in condition 2 (i.e., hammer down, chamber-loaded, safety off) is unsafe. It is unsafe while in condition 2 and it is unsafe to get there. And it is slower and more fumble prone to get into action than condition 1.

If you are afraid of the cocked hammer, then get a different gun.
hmm, as a beginner, I'm starting to go off the 1911 pistols because of this...What are the safety features of the Sig pistols? I am only familiar with Glocks.
Sigh. Afraid of a 1911 carried cocked and locked but not afraid of a Glock? I just don't get it. What, exactly, makes you think a 1911 is unsafe but a Glock is safe? Please explain this to me. I truly just don't understand this fear.

Lots of NDs occur while reholstering. What often happens is that the person forgets to remove their finger from the trigger. The holster stops the trigger finger, the gun keeps going, thus the trigger gets pulled inadvertently, and boom: http://www.frontsight.com/safety.htm

Scroll down to "unintentional gunshot wound."

Now, let's compare and contrast this type of incident with a Glock and a 1911. With a 1911, if the shooter remembers to apply the safety, but leaves his finger on the trigger while reholstering, what happens? The holster stops the trigger finger, the gun keeps going, the finger thus tries to pull the trigger, but the safety prevents the gun from firing. No discharge.

With a Glock, the holster stops the trigger finger, the gun keeps going, the finger thus pulls the trigger and the gun discharges.

With a 1911, if the shooter forgets to apply the safety and leaves his finger on the trigger, the result is pretty much the same as the glock, because both guns have a short, light trigger.

Now, lets consider the same thing with a Sig. If the shooter remembers to decock, but leaves his finger on the trigger while reholstering, there is nothing to prevent a discharge. There are two advantages, however. The longer, harder trigger pull means the shooter might recognize the situation in time to stop pushing the gun into the holster. Similarly, the exposed hammer on the Sig allows the shooter to place his strong thumb over the back of the hammer while reholstering. If the above situation occurs, the hammer will start to cock prior to firing. If the shooter recognizes that in time, he can stop pushing the gun into the holster.

Now, if the shooter forgets to decock the Sig and leaves his finger on the trigger while reholstering, he's in the same situation as that of a Glock or a 1911 with the safety off -- the gun has a short, light trigger pull and nothing to prevent the gun from discharging during such a botched reholstering.

So how, exactly, is the Glock safer than a 1911 in such a situation?

Don't get me wrong, I've got 2 Glocks and a Sig. I feel perfectly safe carrying a Glock or a Sig. I feel perfectly safe carrying a 1911. Any of those guns can be carried and operated safely. Any of those guns can be mishandled. You should get proper training on holstering and drawing from a holster before you carry any gun, whether a Glock, Sig, or 1911.

If a cocked hammer scares you, there's plenty of good (and safe) designs to choose from.

M1911

[cslinger]

JMB designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked. He never designed it to be decocked on a live round. It is much SAFER to carry a 1911 C&L then not.

That being said I can sympathize with wanting to decock. Even though I am completey aware of how it should be done and the fact that it is really safe, I still can't get completely over carrying a C&L 1911.....so I carry a SIG or Revo.

If you do decock, please remember to keep it pointed in a safe direction and try to keep your thumb and hand as far out of the way of the slide as possible just in case.

I do have a hankering for a little itty bitty 1911 for possibly carry though, don't know why really. :D

[Kevinch]

1911s are like Harleys. If I have to explain, YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!

:rolleyes:

OK....but I'll try. (I ride a Yamaha, so I'm used to not having to explain....)

The trigger of a single action only pistol, of which the 1911 is, only releases the hammer to fly forward & fire the pistol. It will not raise & then release the hammer, as on a double action revolver. (When speaking of SA & DA, you are really referring to the design of the trigger/hammer mechanism).

A conventional DA/SA semi-auto pistol will operate in either SA mode (releasing the hammer after it is "cocked" by hand), or in DA mode (starting out with the hammer down, pulling the trigger to first raise the hammer & subsequently realease it). Additionally, once the pistol is fired in either scenario, the slide will move rearward ejecting the spent cartridge & cocking the hammer. When the slide moves forward, it leaves the hammer cocked & loads another round.

Most DA/SA semi-auto pistols are equipped with a safety that de-cocks the hammer. Some lock the hammer from being raised until the safety is manually de-activated; others automatically de-activate after lowering the hammer. Similar to a conventional DA revolver, the latter type are ready to go with a pull of the trigger.

Since the trigger cannot raise the hammer on a 1911, it makes little sense to provide a method of lowering the hammer to that state. Instead, the safety is constructed to lock the action with the hammer in the fully cocked position. When the pistol is brought into action, the safety is de-activated & the gun is ready to fire with a light pull of the SA trigger. After firing the initial round, SA & DA/SA pistols operate the same until the safety is activated.

You can lower the hammer on a live round, but the safety of such a manevuer is questionable. On a 1911, you'll have to release both safeties, hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, and gently lower the hammer to rest. If the hammer slips while both safties are deactivated, the gun should fire. IMO, it is not a safe method of putting the pistol "to rest".

If you aren't comfortable with carrying a 1911 with a round in the chamber & the hammer "cocked & locked", I would suggest that you put the gun to rest with an empty chamber. In fact, before becoming comfortable with carrying my 1911 concealed I used to move around the house & yard with it cocked & locked over an empty chamber. Once I was convinced the gun was safe in that mode, I began carry with it cocked & locked over a loaded chamber. Of course, proper equipment & safe handling practices are required - incompetent hands are inheritly dangerous.

Don't allow yourself to be turned off from a 1911 because you don't understand its operation - but do understand it completely before loading & using it! Read the manual & get some training if you need to - but don't write the design off.

[Rovert]

OK, guys... work with me on this one, because I've never had a need to do this, but what's the 'half-cock' position on a 1911 for?

Exercise: Rack slide on an empty 1911, or one with a snapcap/dummy round in the magazine. Grasp gun normall, and with shooting support hand, hold back trigger to prevent it from falling on the firing pin. Pull trigger to begin travel, then release trigger just as the travel begins forward motion. Hammer should come to rest in a 'half-cocked' position.

Marca, do take the advice offered here, and don't write off the 1911. There's a REASON it's considered a classic, and is as popular today as ever. It's often said that no collection is complete without at least one, which is why I made it my FIRST gun.

FWIW, I'm far more comfortable and trusting of a 1911 C&L than any Glock. Those things make me NERVOUS. :eek:

[AndABeer]

but what's the 'half-cock' position on a 1911 for?

to tear up the sear on a really good trigger job :D

[Fraser]

1911's are reserved for patriotic, red blooded, verile American men. Sure you can go out and buy those namby-pamby foreign popguns........but the real professionals carry 1911's (FBI SWAT and HRT, Marine Rapid Response Team, Houston PD, etc.)

That said, one of the first things I learned at the NRA Instructor's Course was how to deal with a rattled student who turns around to hand you a cocked revolver. SOMEBODY has to decock the dang thing without making it go bang.

When I go duck hunting, the self loading shotgun is cocked with the safety applied. Same thing when I used to go hunting NVA - the M16 was cocked and locked. The WWII GI's carried their Garands cocked and locked.

Proper training from a qualified instructor will reap great rewards. Go for the 1911.

[Pampers]

From the Greek Hopolite which was a heavily armed soldier. Hoplophobe--Fear of such people and by association, fear of their weapons. Ergo, one who has a fear of GUNS!

Word coined by Col. Jeff Cooper.


USGIs carried Condition 3 in attempt to grunt (Idiot) proof the arm. As stated above, JMB designed it to be carried Cocked & Locked.

Someone please explain to me how Condition 0 (Loaded Chamber, Cocked and UNLOCKED) ie: Glock, is safer than condition 1.

[shu]

Interesting thread ... speaking as a glockophile who bought a SA 1911-A1 a few months ago to see what all the hoopla was about.

A few days ago I found a good article at
http://www.sightm1911.com/ > Care and Use > the Conditions.
The thrust of the article is that cocked and locked just looks frightening.

It occurs to me that a cocked and locked 1911 is probably safer than a glock with a round chambered. I would not feel comfortable with either bouncing around in a backpack unholstered, but the odds would be better with the 1911.

Ain't nothing perfect. The tradeoff here is that to get that wonderful 1911 trigger ya gots to start with the hammer back. Fine. Works good, has for a long time.

[Zak Smith]

As a disclaimer, I don't have a 1911 yet, so the following comments are based on my meager understanding of the BHP and CZ-75.

If the trigger is not pulled, but the sear somehow "slips" off the hammer's full-cock notch, I believe the hammer will stop falling as the much-larger half-cock notch on the hammer engages the sear.

Is this correct?

(As for the original question: You don't decock a 1911. No reason.)

-z

[sanchezero]

USGIs carried Condition 3 in attempt to grunt (Idiot) proof the arm. As stated above, JMB designed it to be carried Cocked & Locked.
Someone please explain to me how Condition 0 (Loaded Chamber, Cocked and UNLOCKED) ie: Glock, is safer than condition 1.

IIRC, Browning actually designed the 1911 to be carried in conZero as the original piece had no thumb safety, just the grip safety. :D

I could easily be mistaken, but I think the Army requested the thumb job.

Anyway...

[Zak Smith]

Someone please explain to me how Condition 0 (Loaded Chamber, Cocked and UNLOCKED) ie: Glock, is safer than condition 1

Well, I won't say which is safer, but a glock with a round chambered is not strictly "cocked" since the striker is not fully cocked in this position. It's more of a "half-cock" and the trigger pull adds the final amount of potential energy before it's released.

-z

[Brian Busch]

Someone please explain to me how Condition 0 (Loaded Chamber, Cocked and UNLOCKED) ie: Glock, is safer than condition 1.

Trick question. In order for a glock to be in condition 0 you would have to be pulling the trigger. The Glock cannot, in and of itself, be in condition 0 because the trigger itself cocks the striker spring.

So I guess since the gun would have to be actually in your hand with 5.5lbs of preasure on the trigger to even be in condition 0. Hopefully this would be intentional. At rest a Glock is at condition 2, with three safties engaged, just like a 1911.

Neither is more safe than the other. People need to get over it.

[Pampers]

Correct!

Series 80s DO NOT hava a half-cock notch since, if the trigger is not fully depressed, the firing pin block will not be deactivated. On Kimber Series II, the grip safety deactivates the firing pin block. I don't know if the Kimber is also minus the half-cock notch.

[Handy]

I've really enjoyed the dueling threads about condition 2 and decocking levers:

The hoplophobes on the decocking thread don't trust mechanical devices like decocking levers. So they would manually decock a pistol.

The hoplophobes in the 1911 camp insist on the use of a decocker to lower any hammer, otherwise it is too dangerous. The mechanical device they are afraid of is the inertial firing pin which prevents the lowered hammer from igniting the primer, even if dropped (the comparison with a SAA is flawed-no inertial pin in that weapon).

People seem to be confused between what you can safely do, and what is common practice.

I also really enjoy the mindreaders who know EXACTLY what John Moses was thinking a century ago. The 1911 has an exposed hammer because the cavalry in 1910 wanted to be able cock the weapons on the draw. Everybody else carried condition 3 in the military.

The 1911 is no more dangerous to carry hammer down than the PPK, P-38, early Beretta 92, S&W 59, Baby Eagle, CZ-75 or a host of other weapons designed with no firing pin block and many without a decocker. To say otherwise is to insist that the laws of physics act on the 1911 differently because condition 2 offends your sensibilities.

The main problem with lacking a firing pin block are muzzle down drops. If your a 1911 person waving a huge Safety First flag, you had better be using a series 80 or Schwartz device or you're really being a hypocrite.

[M1911]

The 1911 is no more dangerous to carry hammer down than the PPK, P-38, early Beretta 92, S&W 59, Baby Eagle, CZ-75 or a host of other weapons designed with no firing pin block and many without a decocker.

Which CZ75? Some have decocker and firing pin block.

Edumacate me. If a 1911 has the hammer down, what prevents the hammer from getting wacked, which hits the firing pin, which fires the round?

M1911

[Handy]

M1911,

The fact that the hammer is already resting against the spring loaded pin. Try kicking something with your foot already touching it. The amount of impact energy necessary to go through the unmoving hammer and into the firing pin enough to throw it down the channel against spring pressure is enormous. Much more than simply dropping the gun on the hammer. And if you drop it on the hammer, the firing pin is already being accelerated toward the hammer, not away from it.

The inertial pin protects against impact, but not against broken sears and muzzle drops (though it helps).

The CZ with a pin block is the B model. A standard CZ-75, as made for the first 15 or 20 years, had none. Same with all guns previously listed.

If Browning actually expected the weapon to never be carried hammer down, he could have used the simpler and more reliable floating pin, like the Tokarev. This pin is just as safe, due to it's low mass, unless the hammer is down.

[dsk]

Series 80 Colts do indeed have a half-cock notch. So do Kimbers. The only difference is that the Colts have more of a "shelf" that the sear will engage. This shelf is near the "at-rest" position, and pulling the trigger will allow the hammer to drop off the shelf. However, since it's almost all the way home already there isn't enough force applied to the firing pin to do anything.

And pleeasse don't anybody quote Col. Hack-worthless on this or any forum from now on. The guy is a blowhard of the worst order. He may have had a distinguished military career, but the recent comments he's made regarding the 1911, M9, M16, and just about every other weapons system he's chosen to hate have been just full of it.

[Cee-Zed]

I said it before in the Condition 2/decocker thread. I think Handy was the only one who ever understood me (thanks, man). I'll say it here now.

INERTIAL FIRING PIN.

All modern semi-autos have an inertial firing pin, at least to my knowledge. This is all completely academic. There is effectively no difference in relative safety of the various semi-autos, provided that they have an INERTIAL FIRING PIN.

Only a full-power, full-travel hammer strike, transferring all of its energy directly to the firing pin, will set most of them off. You can manually decock, you can use an integral decocker, and you can drop one on concrete all day. Unless God hates you, the pistol will not go off, due to the INERTIAL FIRING PIN.

I'm not talking about an automatic firing pin block (which many pistols do not have); I'm talking about the INERTIAL FIRING PIN which virtually every semi-auto made since WWII (and many before) does have.

Handy said it best:
"People seem to be confused between what you can safely do, and what is common practice."

He's right, because of the INERTIAL FIRING PIN.

I don't want people to think that I am insulting them. I am hoping that by typing this large enough, enough times, someone may actually read this and realize what he and I have been talking about for something like a week now.

P.S. The CZ 75 (Type A), which was manufactured from 1976-1994, has no automatic firing pin block, but it does have the inertial firing pin (as do the B series models).

Thank you, cheers, and good night.

[M1911]

I don't want people to think that I am insulting them. I am hoping that by typing this large enough, enough times, someone may actually read this and realize what he and I have been talking about for something like a week now.

Cee-Zed:

Actually, I have found your postings somewhat insulting. All you've done is scream INERTIAL FIRING PIN. Ok. So what?

You have not tried to explain in anyway 1) what such a thing is or 2) why such a thing would prevent a hammer blow from causing a discharge. All you've done is scream INERTIAL FIRING PIN over and over. Now, if you'd posted something like this (or a link to it):

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Digests/v01n900-999/v01n902.txt

then I might have understood what I think you were trying to say.

M1911

[CastleBravo]

The potentially un-safe part about decocking any semi-auto manually isn't some minor jolt or slip (it has been correctly pointed out that that won't set the gun off), but that your thumb will slip off the hammer right after you have depressed the trigger at the fully back position (or near it), and the trigger will still be depressed at that point, allowing the hammer to hit the firing pin at (or near) full force. BOOM.

Just sitting around with my Colt 1991A1 fooling with it (UNLOADED), goofing up in that way is definitely possible if you are trying to be a cool guy and decock it by resting your thumb on the back of the hammer and easing it down.

If you are determined to manually decock a gun, the smart money is on placing a finger in FRONT of the path of the hammer and easing it down that way... there really isn't anything to slip unless you move the finger entirely out of the hammer's path.

But back on the SPECIFIC TOPIC of the 1911, there is no reason to carry that gun with the hammer down, unless you are scared of how the gun LOOKS. If you are scared of how it looks, you need to stay away from a WEAPON and stick to baking pastries or something. Hammer down on a 1911 isn't a safer way to carry, it is unsafe if you need to use the gun quickly, and is unsafe if you are dumb/clumsy about how you decock it. It has no advantage but looking a bit less scary, and I like my weapons to look scary as hell.

I don't know how DA/SA guns even got into this topic, since they are a completely different animal. Those guns can actually be fired with the hammer down, and many of the guns have no applied manual saftey with the hammer cocked, so decocking them (manually or with the decocker) is a perfectly sensible thing to do.

[Cee-Zed]

"Actually, I have found your postings somewhat insulting. All you've done is scream INERTIAL FIRING PIN. Ok. So what?
You have not tried to explain in anyway 1) what such a thing is or 2) why such a thing would prevent a hammer blow from causing a discharge. All you've done is scream INERTIAL FIRING PIN over and over."

Handy did an admirable job of explaining both the mechanism and the physics of such a device on both threads. Since he is being reasonable and polite, he is being ignored. I was writing in all caps, because no one seems to acknowledge this. I have at least partially explained their utility on both threads.

Example:
"Only a full-power, full-travel hammer strike, transferring all of its energy directly to the firing pin, will set most of them off."

You have convinced me that I should have used all capital letters for my entire post, and I thank you.

[VVG]

1911's are reserved for patriotic, red blooded, verile American men. Sure you can go out and buy those namby-pamby foreign popguns........but the real professionals carry 1911's (FBI SWAT and HRT, Marine Rapid Response Team, Houston PD, etc.) THE Houston Police? I'll reconsider....

Texas Rangers (SIGs in .357 SIG,), Austin SWAT (.40 S&W H&K's), Fort Worth SWAT (.40 S&W Beretta 96), and San Antonio (.40 S&W Glock).

The Garand safety and bolt prevents the firing pin from going forward if the bolt is out of battery or the safety is on. The M1911 pattern does not.

P.S. It's "Virile"

[RBK]

I think Brian Busch said it best, above.:o

[JIH]

HPD in general does not use 1911s. They're restricted to .40s, IIRC, and typically use S&Ws, Rugers or Glocks (they buy their own), with some SiGs and Berettas in the bunch. Plainclothes officers have more choices (.38s and 9mms through .44 MAG and .45 ACP).

The SWAT folks use 1911s. Generally they're not called out until after HPD has killed everyone in sight.

[M1911]

You have convinced me that I should have used all capital letters for my entire post, and I thank you.

I read your posts, but they didn't explain any of the physics. You just kept shouting INTERTIAL FIRING PIN. Ok. So what?

I read Handy's explanations, but, frankly, they don't make as much sense to me as the link I've found. I appreciate his attempts to explain the physics. I don't appreciate your insults.

M1911

[Handy]

Which is more rude?

1. Calling someone "insulting" for using capital letters.

2. Using capital letters.


People in glass houses don't chuch stones. I just looked over both M1911 and Cee-Zed's posts and I don't think I would have concluded that Cee-Zed was the one using an insulting tone.

"Sigh."


M1911, if you already had read that other, clearer thread, why did you need me to "edumocate you"? Did you actually need the explanation, or was that a put down?

[Admiral Thrawn]

The ONLY way a Glock can fire is if you make full contact with the trigger (to fully press the trigger safety) and pull the trigger.

There is no other way it will fire because of the three safety system.

A firing pin hook which prevents movement of the firing pin, a firing pin block which blocks contact with the chambered cartridge and the trigger safety.

On the 1911, you DO have to consider knocking the hammer, dropping the weapon, decocking, fiddling with safeties in the heat of the action, etc etc.

I prefer the reliable, simple DA operation of the Glock.

Pull out weapon, aim, pull trigger: BANG, every time.

And ONLY when the trigger is pulled.

One thing which people haven't mentioned is the issue of fumbling a safety when under duress. This is not an issue with the Glocks.

[Boats]

On the 1911, you DO have to consider knocking the hammer, dropping the weapon, decocking, fiddling with safeties in the heat of the action, etc etc.

I especially like the "etc etc." like there are any more dumb contentions than the three you just crammed into the above sentence. There aren't any documented ADs that I have seen that are attributable to the hammer of a 1911 being "knocked." Care to link us to one?

Intelligent 1911 owners have no need to "decock" a single action autopistol. A 1911 operator who carries Condition 2 is just biding his time until his Darwin Award winning moment. Care to link us to an actual 1911 shooter who will admit to carrying Condition 2? Chances are he's new or an idiot.

. . . fiddling with safeties in the heat of the action. . .

You must be one of those guys they make fun of in the movies who can't unhook a bra when it matters either.

I prefer the reliable, simple DA operation of the Glock.

Ah, an answer. He uses the pistol of the lowest common denominator. Well not for much longer as soon the Glock will shortly be machina non grata in Australia.

Pull out weapon, aim, pull trigger: BANG, every time.

And ONLY when the trigger is pulled.

Hell, sometimes it goes BANG after something else pulls the trigger. As for everyone else that can walk and chew gum at the same time, they can handle the extreme mental challenge of gripping a 1911 and wiping the thumb safety off of it as it is presented on target. When one is done shooting the 1911, one does not "decock," one safes the weapon.

One thing which people haven't mentioned is the issue of fumbling a safety when under duress. This is not an issue with the Glocks.

Well, you mentioned it twice in the same post. Too bad that this phenomenon hasn't been much observed over the past 91 years. How could the 1911 survive in honorable service this long when a sizeable percentage of its users cannot fire them under duress? Simple. It is not a real problem that's how.

But you are right about safety not being an issue with Glock. At least with a Glock, you only have to worry about shooting something or someone negligently as Glock makes no concession to safety at all. It is amusing to no end that entire threads on GlockTalk and TFL, and gunsmithing services, are devoted to adding an external safety to the Glock line. If such devices are so unnecessary, why then does a significant percentage of the Glock community wish to modify their pistols?

Something that people haven't mentioned is how some folks can go on and on about the perceived flaws of the weapons of others while simultaneously demonstrating that they know nothing about the weapon they are criticizing.

Oh wait a minute, I have mentioned how you have shown you do not know anything about using a 1911. My bad. Well, unfortunately, as you live Down Under, you will probably not have a chance to obtain a 1911 and correct your own misinformation about them.

[Handy]

Well this has become about as brainy as a Han Solo vs. Luke Skywalker debate. Both of you sight debatable points but fail to recognize your obviously irrational bias. But the nasty tone will certainly win converts.

I doubt the 1911 has been carried in condition1 for much of it's 91 years. In all likelyhood it didn't become a popular carry method until the fifties and the Colonel showed up.

You don't make much of a point if you just sight years of use or PD adoption numbers. You do if you can add insight, not taunts.

[Boats]

Well Mr. Handy, are you actually defending Condition 2 on a 1911?

I understand that it may be perfectly safe with an inertial firing pin to carry a 1911 in Condition 2 safely, but just because it ends up safe, doesn't mean it was safe to get it to C2 or that it is safe to deploy it from C2.

I fail to see what the merit of C2 is on a 1911. On a DA/SA, C2 is the instant readiness condition, on SAO, it is a tactical liability. If one can't/won't handle C1 carry on a 1911, then one should consider C3 carry or buying one of those DA/SA pistols or a Glock if C2 is preferred.

It doesn't really matter to me. I just can't stand uninformed opinions about the 1911. People who can demonstrate a knowledge of it and a distaste for it are people one has to live with because they've walked the walk and can at least talk like they've been around the block with the 1911. Wading through the musings of the unwashed hordes of people who wish to comment on the 1911 without having even handled one, it is apparent that those folks irk me to no end, proof being my earlier post.

I stand by my contention that the less one knows about handguns, the higher the chances are that they own/desire/are forced to use a Glock.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Oh come on Boats, there's no need to bitch over the issue.

I've got nothing against the 1911A1 pistols, in fact I'm looking at getting two of them.

My point was that I just feel more comfortable as a beginner using the Glocks. That's all.

And about having a ND by "accidentally snagging the trigger," it would be made very difficult if not impossible by the trigger safety.

Also, if you are holstering the weapon, generally you don't have your finger on the trigger; if you did, you should be readying to fire, not holstering it, because, well, you generally don't try to fire down your pants..... :p

Besides, the "universal rules of safe gun useage" state that you should not have your finger on the trigger unless you are just about to fire, let alone holstering the weapon. :rolleyes:

[Redneck2]

about Glock vs 1911 vs. condtion 1 vs. 2, 3, 4, 5 etc

Maybe we ought to just answer the poor guy's question

Some people are nervous about seeing a pistol carried with the hammer back. In reality this is no more dangerous than carrying a rifle or shotgun with a round in the chamber and safety on (it's also cocked). Just looks dangerous and intimidating. YMMV

I'd look real hard at a Para-Ordinance. They are double action only. Pulling the trigger cocks and releases the hammer. They have 1911 looks, operation, and style and the trigger pull is very, very smooth particularly compared to typical single actions. They also have an external safety like the typical 1911.
Well made and accurate.

[riverdog]

My point was that I just feel more comfortable as a beginner using the Glocks. That's all.

And about having a ND by "accidentally snagging the trigger," it would be made very difficult if not impossible by the trigger safety.
The issue with Glock ND's is with "things" getting inside the trigger guard. This is the reason all Glock holsters have the trigger guard completely covered. Sure, stuff brushing against the outer edges of the trigger won't pull the trigger, but stuff in a back-pack (a pencil for instance) could pull that trigger. Any Glock with a chambered round should be in a holster or in your hand.

I have been in the condition 3 camp simply because I have also carried Glocks. From Condition 3 the manual of arms for both the Glock and the 1911 is the same -- rack the slide, aim and fire. However, my Glock days are mostly behind me and I'm seriously considering a switch to condition 1 carry.

As for condition 2: I'm not a strong advocate of condition 2 in any gun.

[GSB]

I'd look real hard at a Para-Ordinance. They are double action only. Pulling the trigger cocks and releases the hammer. They have 1911 looks, operation, and style and the trigger pull is very, very smooth particularly compared to typical single actions. They also have an external safety like the typical 1911.

The Para LDA is a neat system, but I'm not sure what niche it fills. I guess it fills the niche of people who like the 1911 style but are uncomfortable with C&L carry (actually, I think the main intended niche is LE Agencies that had policies against single actions). The trigger on the LDA is so good and so light that I wouldn't dare carry the thing without the thumb safety engaged, so already I'm dealing with the same presentation issues as the 1911. It's a novel design, and one I seriously thought about buying, but when I really sat down and analyzed it, I couldn't see what advantage I would gain over a traditional 1911 action.

[Mustang6]

Us Jarheads still carry 1911's..well some of us speacial sorts do. Its allways cocked and locked going into a DAM *shrug* whats the point of having a back up if in the second it may save your life you have to ask the bad man to hold on while you rack the slide? Wouldnt it have been faster to load the m-4 I just had in my hands. And if so then arnt I dead allready?

Semper Fi