Accuracy of the various battle rifle

[Molly]

I know that the HK91 vs. G3 vs. FAL vs. whatever has been hammered on many times here, but I need to take it a step further if you please.

I'd like some reports about the accuracy of these rifles when they are fitted with SS barrels, free-floated handgaurds, aftermarket triggers, etc. Everyone seems to say that the M1A and AR10 have an advantage in accuracy over the G3 and FAL, but what about when compared to a the top-of-the-line DSA SS free-floated, match barrelled model, or a real German HK91 (not a clone or CETME)?

Thanks

[Jamie Young]

IF you put enough money into any of them you'll get a sub MOA gun.

[Handy]

Most people that report better accuracy with the M1A are actually reporting that the sights are better set up for target shooting. Mechanically, a stock 91 is more accurate than a Loaded M1A, but the thick sight post and lack of field windage adjustment is problematic for high power shooting.

AR-10 is extremely accurate, floated or not. The gas system makes it like a floated barrel. Similar accuracy to an AR-15.

HK91 is a floated barrel and is very accurate (around 1 MOA with good bullets). A difficult rifle to replace barrels or upgrade. Probably the most accurate .30 battle rifle widely issued, yet very reliable.

Standard or loaded M1A is accurate enough, around 2 MOA. You can do all sorts of stuff to them to make intrinsic accuracy as good as the others, but you're alway fighting the negative influence of the hefty gas system and the price of customizing.

The Fal is quite variable. The issue rifle is 2 MOA or worse, but the precise DSA rifles and the like are showing 1 MOA or better. Like the M1A, seems to respond to love and attention (and money).

[Christopher II]

With an unlimited budget, they all should be pretty equal. I'd rank them, based on my experience, in the order:

AR-10 - You can get tune-up parts easily, best scope mounting, best trigger by far, easy to float the barrel.
M14 - Lots of experience in accurizing the M14 is available. It really needs to be bedded, while none of the others do. Very good trigger. Blueprinting the action, while not hard, is very labor-intensive.
FAL - The barrel can be floated, but it's not as nice as the AR10. The bolt and barrel don't lock up together, which can be an issue, but good fitting will minimize the problem. Good scope mounts available.
G3 - I've seen several G3s with major reciever flex problems. The PSG-1 partially solves this issue by welding reinforcing rods to the outside. Horrid trigger, I don't think the PSG trigger is much better. The ARMS claw mount is pretty good, but not as nice as the DSA FAL mount or a flattop AR.

The final equation is (accuracy = money). Pour enough money into the right gunsmith, and he'll make any one of them into a match rifle.

- Chris

[Destructo6]

The HK-91/G3 comes standard with a free floated barrel. The sling pin is attached to the barrel, so you don't want to put much pressure on it while you're shooting or you can use a push-pin sling eyelet instead.

The basic design of each is sound, so as SodaPop says, accuracy is just a question of money: how tight do you want it to be?

[telewinz]

The proof is in the past, of all the rifles mentioned ONLY the M1a or M14 has routinely been used at Camp Perry and WON. Free floating a barrel does not always mean improved accuracy, that can be the result but then so can glass bedding the action.

[AZ Jeff]

Telewinz, although I am a fan of the M1A/M14, one has to understand that the reason they "win" at Camp Perry is because the competition rules are set up in favor of those rifles, and NOT the FNFAL and G3. (Those two rifles are NOT considered service rifles of the US Military.)

One other comment on the G3 as a "target rifle". As others have mentioned, the sling attaches to the BARREL on the HK91/G3. This means that using the sling in position shooting, (as is common among High Power rifle shooters) on a G3 will flex the barrel, pretty much guaranteeing loss of inherent accuracy in the rifle. The sling on the G3 is a CARRY sling ONLY, NOT a shooting sling.

On the other hand, the sling on the M1A/M14 and it's predecessor, the M1 Garand, is a true shooting sling, and it helps immensely for consistency in shooting.....

[telewinz]

I have never read or heard at any time over the years that the G-3 or FAL were as accurate or more accurate than an M1A or M-14. I own or have owned all the above rifles except the AR10 and ENJOY the M14 the least. All things being equal the M14 will outshoot all except maybe the AR10 and that yet remains to be seen but my money would still be on the M14/M1A until proven different (but not on a case by case basis). We are know(or should know) that the bolt action still rules when it comes to accuracy.

[Handy]

Talking about a G3 not winning Camp Perry is like talking about Toyota's record in Nascar.

Like I said, a rack grade or better M1A action is relatively sloppy compared to an issue G3. However, sling, sights, barrel length, trigger all favor the M1A for target shooting.

[telewinz]

Is there anywhere in the World where the G3 or FAL have a PROVEN track record for unequalled accuracy compared to the M14 or any other MBR. Again I prefere the FAL to the G3 or M14 but only the M14 has unbiased documented evidence of it's inherent accuracy. Also, what Toyoda would have a reasonable chance of winning a Nascar event even if it were permitted to compete. In either case I can't think of any. Please educate me.:confused:

[JIH]

If you want to most accuracy out of the box and/or for the least money if you want to modify, get an AR10.

[Handy]

Go to HKpro and ask people what sort of groups they get in their stock 91's. Inch to an inch and a half, with good ammo, from the bench. Ask about stock or loaded M1A's and you'll get a bigger number. Fulton armory, a custom M14/M1A builder only guarantees 2.5 moa (with MATCH ammo) for the base gun ($1299 + receiver) and 1.5 moa for their Comp NM ($1699 + receiver). These are carefully built rifles intended for competitors. The HK91 is a semiauto G3. The two I've had both did an inch with hunting loads-not match ammo.

You could win nascar with a Tercel. That Tercel would have the same engine, transmission, tires, suspension as every other "Brand" on the track because of Nascar's ridiculous rules. Which was the point, the rules govern what's allowed to compete, not what's best. If you could shoot whatever you want at Perry someone would have used a Walther Bullpup by now and won big time.

[Destructo6]

Many Toyotas could compete and have a reasonable chance of winning a NASCAR race if they are allowed similar modifications. You know, like that Ford Taurus on the track with a 350ci V8, rear wheel drive, etc.

The documentation of the M14's inherent accuracy, if you refer to Camp Perry as that source, is highly biased since only US service rifles are allowed.

The analogy is not unlike saying v-twin superbikes are better than inline fours, because v-twins have won all of the SBK Championships in the last several years. What it doesn't say is that's largely because v-twins are allowed 250cc greater displacement than the inline fours (rule change next year equalize displacement).

[Al Thompson]

telewinz, your comparing apples and hockey pucks. The M14 series rifles and G3/HK 91s never went head to head in competition due to one major terrain feature - the Atlantic Ocean.

If the G3 was adapted by us and OK for competition at Perry, there would be something to debate about. Since it was not, you might as well be debating Airsoft guns in Japan versus the 11mm hunting rifles used in some Canton of Switzerland.

The HK-91s I've owned and seen fired would group better than the M-1/M-14/M-1As that I've owned and seen fired. The problem with the 91 series is the trigger - no aftermarkets that are Match in nature. The Garand series is easy to tune to a decent trigger, but you do have that stock to consider. Any rifle that looses accuracy the more you field strip it, is a rifle that has "issues". :)

And I'm with you - the FAL should have been the winner of the shootoff between the M-14 and the FAL. May have avoided the mousegun problems we have today... :D

[telewinz]

I understand what you are saying but my point is that OUTSIDE the U.S. there must be countries out there that have rifle meets similar to Camp Perry where FAL's and G3's are used and there accuracy is documented at those events. I'll admit I am not familar with target shooting in Europe or anywhere else in the World for that matter. 100 years ago England had rifle competition and their rifle team came over here and we kicked their butts. Is there no fomal target competition in the World where the FAL and G3 can compete? Going thru the different Web sites dealing with firearms accuracy I've noticed that the majority of semi-auto guns mentioned in the posts always seem to shoot 1in groups or less on a regular basis. I am somewhat doubtfull about their honesty therefore I'm just asking for unbiased documented evidence (if available?). A sampling of a few dozen rifles doesn't seem to me to be a large enough "pool" to draw any firm conclusions.

[Handy]

Obviously the Swiss have an even more vigorous program than we do. They'd be using blowback PE57s and gas 550's with HK style sights. What are their results, as a starting point? I don't read Swiss German, French or Italian so I wouldn't know how to search or read the results.