Re-chambering Arisakas

[Oleg Volk]

Can 6.5 or 7.7 Arisakas be re-chembered for more common rounds? Would they still feed and eject properly?

[No4Mk1]

Why would you want to? That isn't meant as a loaded question, just asking because with my (admittedly VERY limited) knowledge of the topic, I understand that these are not great shooters, but at the very least are interesting collectibles. Why not get another plinker in something like 308 or whatever and save this one in tact?

If I am wrong, tell me so.

HL.

[Mike Irwin]

Sure you can.

A very common conversion for the 6.5s was to rechamber to .257 Robers and maintain the 6.5mm caliber. A wildcat. But a very good wildcat.

Given that most 7.7s were not made anywhere near the quality standards of the 6.5s, though, I really don't think it wise to try rechambering a 7.7

Arisakas can be EXCELLENT shooters, or can be mediocre.

All in all, though, a Mauser makes a better gun to rechamber, as the action is "friendlier."

One of my future projects, though, is to rechamber something else to 6.5x50 Arisaka.

I've always been somewhat fascinated by this cartridge. It's efficient, low recoiling, has good ballistics, and should be an EXCELLENT medium-bore performer in an appropriate rifle.

[Jim Watson]

As I recall, it was sometimes done to set a 7.7 barrel back enough to allow rechambering to .300 Savage. This is NOT something you want to pay a gunsmith to do these days. Might be an ok DIY if you have the equipment, knowhow, and an Ari to work with.

[Gewehr98]

That has been rechambered for the .260 Remington (6.5-308). It has a nicely done bent bolt, Timney trigger, Bishop stock, Weaver scope mounts, etc. I would think that as long as the original 6.5x50 bore was in decent shape and close to .264" in size, it would shoot the .260 Remington with nary a problem. Now if I would just go over there and buy the darned thing... ;)

[tex_n_cal]

The 6.5mm Arisakas have wonderfully strong actions. Recall that the Japanese have always been great steel makers - note the quality of old samurai swords. The 7.7's though, were made under rough wartime conditions, and should be checked carefully before shooting.

There is one 6.5 at a favorite shop that was sporterized into a Mannlicher style rifle, and it turned out pretty neat, and cheap, too. I keep threatening to buy it.:)

[Mike Irwin]

Tex,

Remember that up until the start of product embargos prior to WW II, a lot of Japanese steel, including ordnance steel, came from the United States.

[Tropical Z]

Is $175.00 a good price for a good condition Arisaka with intact mum but a pretty severe crack in the stock?

[Unkel Gilbey]

Trop Z

Keep in mind that if the Mum was intact, the rifle was captured in combat. All Arisaka's that made it through the war had their Mum's ground or defaced by request of Hirohito. It had something to do with offending their gods or something or other...

I would say that a buck seventy five for a rifle that has an intact mum, all other pieces present and a cracked stock is a damned good price. A quick check to all the firearms auction sites will give you an idea of what the going rate for one of these rifles is. Gun Parts Corp, or SARCO might even be able to get you a new stock for cheap (new means old surplus, but good condition!)

Oleg

The Arisaka's breech is a bit involved, and this means that most gunsmiths will tend to shy away from rebarreling the action. Too labor intensive and the resulting price tag would make your jaw drop. It's possible to have the barrel set back a thread or two and then have it rechambered, but there's only so much you can do before you have to start messing with the breeching again. Incidentally, it's this breeching that made the Arisaka THE strongest, safest bolt action to come out of WWII.

I'd wondered recently about rechambering a Type 38 Ari into either 6.5-257 Rbts, or 260 Rem, but haven't seen any recent information about it. That 6.5 bore just cries out to be used, and there are more than a couple Arisaka's out there that could very handily be converted into one of these cartridges. I am really starting to lean towards a 260 Remington for my next project, and I happen to know where a couple of Type 38's are sitting - just waiting for me!

If the rifle in question is a Type 99, you must check the bore before going too much farther. It might be tight, which means that you might just be able to get .308 bullets to work in that bore, otherwise, you have to use .311 caliber bullets (303 British)

Also, just rechambering the action for 30-06 isn't going to help, as the 7.7 Arisaka cartridge is a tad wider at it's backside than an aught-six. This means you run the risk of burst cases if someone were to just rechamber it. Bad juju.

Norma still sells 7.7 Jap ammo, and also 6.5 Jap ammo - and empty cases if you reload. That's if the whole rebarrel/rechamber thing sours to you. So all is not lost at this point. But at least now you have more options to play with, right?

Good Luck!
Unkel Gilbey

[tex_n_cal]

I read of one case back in the '60's where some idiot ran a .30-06 chambering reamer into a 6.5...then fired '06's in it without rebarrelling :eek:

He complained of heavy recoil, but the gun survived the .308 bullets being swaged down to .264 !!!!!!!!

The gun I think finally wound up in the hands of the American Rifleman, who test fired it (with a string) and were astonished that it stayed together. They are very strong.

[Mike Irwin]

Tex,

I've actually seen the bullets from that conversion!

When I worked at American Rifleman, one of the guys there had been on the staff when that rifle came in. He still had several of the bullets.

Looked VERY weird.

[Kernel]

Relevant Old Thread (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94642&highlight=Arisakas)

[Mike Irwin]

Kernel,

Just noticed some of your comments on the Japanese steel industry in your last thread.

Interesting comments, but where did you come by that information?

I really don't think the quality of Japanese steel had much if anything to do with the adoption of the 6.5 round. Remember, quite a few other militaries around the world were adopting rounds around 6.5mm caliber at the same time -- Italy, Sweden, The Netherlands, Greece, the United States, among others. I really think Japan was following the extant trend in military firearms at the time.

Japan's first troubles with a rifle chambered for the 6.5 round didn't have anything to do with the quality of the steel -- it was design deficiency, pure and simple. Even extremely early Type 38 Arisakas are EXTREMELY robust, and more than strong enough to take a much more powerful round.

[Navy joe]

I guess my question is why re-chamber? I'm about to get a single stage and Lee dies for mine, I now have 80 pieces of brass. I got mine shooting straight recently and it is throwing consistent hot barrel 3 shot groups of 1.375" at 100. That's with my lefty self shooting righthand because of the cheekpiece stock, seated with my support hand resting on a wood block. Neat gun to learn on because unlike many others it is picky. Rest the fore end directly on the wood and it shoots a foot high. Pull the two soda can shims out from under the barrel at the fore end and it shoots a foot low. I'm looking for sub MOA once I bed it, free float, remove about 4" from the 30" barrel and recrown the thing.

I just think the cartridge is neat. A long, thin, and heavy bullet that flies nice. I find the Norma 156 ASP for about 30 a box occasionally and there is a guy on here that sells reloads made from .220 Swift brass for 24 a box shipped. They shot nicely. Loaded to the military specs w/ a lighter spitzer bullet.

[Unkel Gilbey]

What I mean is that while 6.5 and 7.7 cases and rounds are still available, it's only from one manufacturer, and supply isn't always cracked up to be what one would like.

Throw in that loaded ammo isn't cheap, and that there isn't really a good selection of 7.7mm bullets (.311) available and you can see a possible need for either rechambering or rebarreling.

If there was more than one manufacturer of ammo and brass, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, but sadly, only Norma supplies these things. This is why I would opt for rechambering the weapon to handle a case (at least) which is more readily available. In the 6.5, with a good bore, a 6.5x308 (260 Rem) sounds really tempting...!

Unkel Gilbey

[rcbs]

Why would you want to? That isn't meant as a loaded question, just asking because with my (admittedly VERY limited) knowledge of the topic, I understand that these are not great shooters

It all depends on the condition of the barrel. I have one of the 7.7 Arisaka's and it has a mint bore and is perhaps the most accurate milititary rifle in my collection.

The 6.5 Jap has also for years been know for its outstanding accuracy if the weapons barrel is in good shape.

Ammo and brass are not problem. Norma still makes it.

If you are an advanced handloader you can easily make 7.7 brass from 30-06 brass. This has been done for years and years. Its a bit undersize in the head area resulting in a slightly buldged case. Not to worry though the great gunsmith P.O. Ackley proved the Jap rifle to be the strongest and safest bolt action military rifle ever made. He actually failed to blow one up. It was the only military rifle he could not blow up. He took a 6.5 Arisaka and bored out the chamber to 30-06 and then touched it off expecting to see a large mushroom cloud in the after math. The barrel was of course ruined and the stock splintered into match sticks but the action held and was in perfect condition. He rebuilt it into a sporter.


Considering the fact that the rifle it a great collectors item and even a few hundred rounds of brass is not going to cost you all that much. They could be reloaded many times. Even if you buy original factory Norma brass it does not make much sense to alter such a historical weapon and spend the large amount of money it would take to rebarrel or rechamber it. You could spend that money on Norma Brass or have an advanced handloader make you up a ton of reformed brass from 30-06 cases. Although I have never done it I imagine if I looked through my books I could come up with another caliber commercial case to form into 6.5 Arisaka brass. But its a lot of trouble to go through when you can buy some Norma brass and reload it many, many times as long as you do not get carried away and try too many super hot loads.

Keep it as is and enjoy shooting it. It was probably the best miltary bolt action rifle ever made.

[DK418]

Irwin,

Japan was the first country to adopt 6.5 calibur, way back in 1897 when most other countries were tinkering with the calibur. It served Japan through the two World wars. Japanese indeed produced very good quality steel, and even exported steel to Britain and France during the first World War (Japan joined the allies during the WWI.) In the 1930's after Japan engaged in a war with China, Japan couldn't keep up with the steel demand and depended on US steel import. Note that while Germany, Britain, Japan all produced good quality steels, US produced better steels in far more quantities than anyone. Especially in Britain's case, we provided for 70% of their steel consumption during the WWII, not counting the steel we provided them in finished form (tanks, etc.) all for essentially free.
Anyway, the Arisaka Model 38 bolt action rifle was adopted for the 6.5x50 cartridge in 1905. The Arisaka is an ungainly looking but very safe modified Mauser bolt action rifle of great strength. I have read that during testing to destruction after the end of WW II the Arisaka Model 99 (a modified design in 7.7x58mm) survived pressures that destroyed all of the other famous bolt action rifles of WW II, including the American 1903 Springfield and German Mauser Model 98 rifles. Not many Westerners realize that the Japanese Arisaka service rifle of WW II was the strongest military bolt action rifle ever produced.

the 6.5x50 cartridge was replaced with 7.7x58 based on Japan's experience during the war with China which started in earnest in 1936. 6.5x50 round, while very accurate and had low recoil, was not as good a man stopper as 8mm mauser or 30-06. During the battle of Sanjing, China, where Chinese troops charged Japanese position in overwhelming numbers, a chinese soldier was shot five times and still reached the Japanese line at which point a Japanese officer cut him down with a sword. The bigger problem still was the lack of penetrating power of 6.5 cartridge. Chinese troops using 8mm mauser and American supplied 30-06 rounds could easily shoot through the Earthen walls of Chinese buildings and kill the Japanese whereas 6.5 couldn't penetrate the walls reliably. During the city battles, Chinese often shot through walls at the concentrated Japanese moving columns from inside the homes (I'm not sure how the Chinese aimed though). But all in all, I think 6.5x50 was an excellent round, and in many aspects, it was ahead of its time. 6.5x50 would've made an excellent assault rifle round.

[Cosmoline]

I really like the performance of my 7.7. It's an early war model, so it's built better than the last ditch models. The round has very soft recoil, but seems to hit hard. In field testing it tore an enormous hole clean through a birch tree. The noise is not bad at all. It's also lighter than a Mauser by at least a pound, and seems to be designed to be faster handling.

It's easy to find .311 bullets, but 7.7 brass is really tough to come by. The modified .30'06 brass you see around has different dimensions and doesn't work as well. Norma makes brass, but so far it seems to be sold out. The Norma cartridges are outrageously expensive. You prop up the Swedish GNP every time you buy one!

[Unkel Gilbey]

I too have read Ackley, and of his exploits with the Arisaka, and have come away from that feeling that the Jap rifles probably are the strongest, safest actions manufactured during that time.

But! (there's always a but!) even Ackley never recommended that 30-06 cases be resized and trimmed to 7.7 Jap for use in an unaltered chamber. The strongest, safest action in the world doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans when you are putting your trust in the strength of the cartridge case itself.

Remember that there IS clearance between the 30-06 case and the sides of the Arisaka chamber. Do YOU put your trust in a thin piece of brass to hold back 45, 000 - 50,000 #'s of chamber pressure? More than one old timey gunsmith went to great lengths to caution against this, because all it takes is one bad case...

There's a supplier of 7.7 and 6.5 Jap cases that isn't Norma. A young lad who works for me told me about it. They want $27.00 for 100 cases. They make these cases out of once fired 30-06 brass...!

I don't think I would personally put my trust in the strength of the brass case itself, and I couldn't recommend doing so to anyone with a clear conscience. It would be better to pull the barrel, set it back one thread and rechamber with an aught six chamber reamer. There might have to be some additional work done to the breech to make sure that everything fit together and headspaced correctly, but the result would be a rifle that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot. I might even be persuaded to test the fabled strength of the action (with hot loads that is...). But I wouldn't think of it any other way.

As far as all the folks out there with unaltered chambers and using reformed 30-06 cases, I wish you luck. You might be lulled into a false sense of security if nothing bad has happened to you yet, but the pessimist in me says that you've been lucky so far. Perhaps this is news to you? If so, I caution all to take heed, and be careful.

Unkel Gilbey

[Jim Watson]

The first assault rifle, the 1916 Federov, WAS 6.5x50 Jap.

Ackley considered using .30-06 brass for 7.7 to be "doubtful practice." Seems like he would have told of any actual failures. He was not bashful about pointing them out in other calibers. Nonte, Barnes, and the NRA all describe forming 7.7 from .30.
I would still bite the bullet and buy Norma.

[brantman]

First of all, I note that most of these replies are approaching ten years old, so this isn't going to be news to the originator. I have loved Arisaka's since 1950 when my cousin gave me one he brought home from WWII. Since then I have had numerous rifles. The commercial ammo is expensive, the brass for reloading is also expensive, so rechambering either the 6.5 (Type 30, 38 or 44) or the 7.7 (Type 99) IS a great option. I agree that no fine or historic specimen should ever be defaced or destroyed. Determine first "what" you have. Is it a rare issue; is it intact; does it have all its intended accouterments (dust cover, monopod, cleaning rod, mum, aircraft sights, etc....)as not all series offered these devices, so the fact that they are not present may not necessarily devalue them. Learn the arsinal markings and series stamps. You may have a treasure. Learn the difference between a "trainer" made from essentially pot metal, and guaranteed to fail if fired with any ammo, and a "last ditch"... all which I have encountered were safe to shoot. Ignorance is your worst enemy in dealing with Arisaka's, especially Model 99 (7.7 x 58). Given that you have a really nice bore, a rechambering to .257 Rbts (also known as .256 Spencer and 6.5 x 57) or 6.5 x 55 Swedish and the newer .260 Remington are great. I have done all; none were 'tack drivers', but all were 1 moa after working up a load. I found the 6.5 x 50 to be wimpy on big Georgia deer. As for the 7.7, the most accurate rifle I have ever owned (and still do) is a series 4 Nagoya Arsinal low serial number, chromed bore converted to 7.7-06. It consistently shoots sub MOA groups and delivered one five shot group which measures .426. I reload 30-06 cases with a .312 dia 150 SP Hornady and 46 grains of IMR 4064 or IMR 4895 without any discernable difference in performance. Finally, I have NEVER seen an arisaka issued stock that was NOT TWO PIECES at the butt. This is NOT a crack, but was the method of manufacturer, probably due to the unavailability of large pieces of suitable wood.

Use a competent gunsmith or you will have junk.

Brantman

[Mike Irwin]

Hell, Brant, and welcome to TFL.

"First of all, I note that most of these replies are approaching ten years old..."

This is what we affectionately call a zombie thread...

There's really no reason to resurrect it after so many years in dormancy.

You could, and should, start a new thread.

This one I'm going to close.