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gburner
October 3, 2002, 11:25 AM
Fox News is reporting that 5 people in Silver Springs have been slain in the past 17 hours. All shootings were out in public, within a 1 mile radius of each other and appear to be random. All appear to be one shot kills. There was a sixth shooting where no one was injured. Local schools are on lockdown. Police are looking for a white Isuzu Box Type delivery van with a damaged rear door.

This is either a lone lunatic or the type of terrorist attack that many have been fearing. Lock & load...
watch your 6.

foghornl
October 3, 2002, 11:30 AM
So far, (Noon Eastern time 10-3-02), only Fox news has reported anything on this. Will keep checking the Alphabet Soup websites for more....

archeryfanatic
October 3, 2002, 11:38 AM
This is all we need ... another gun nut going crazy and giving every gun owner a bad name.

Reuter coverage on the shootings (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20021003/ts_nm/crime_shootings_dc)

MJRW
October 3, 2002, 11:38 AM
This is not a terrorist attack. The scale is way to small and simple.

OF
October 3, 2002, 11:57 AM
There may be two shooters working together. Armed with a "high-powered rifle"...whatever that means when it's uttered by media talking heads.

Maryland and DC TFL'ers keep your heads down and your eyes open.

- Gabe

DMK
October 3, 2002, 12:02 PM
Isn't Maryland one of the more strict gun control states?

It kinda proves more gun laws aren't going to make us safer doesn't it?

dev_null
October 3, 2002, 12:05 PM
From another forum I'm on...


Here's the sequence of events according to county police:

At 5:20 pm Wednesday, a window was shot out at the Michaels store in the Northgate Shopping Center in Aspen Hill.

Around 6 pm Wednesday night, a 55-year-old man was shot and killed outside a Shoppers Food Warehouse in Wheaton.

At 7:41 am Thursday, a Hispanic man on a lawn mower was shot and killed near the 11,400-block of Rockville Pike.

At 8:10 am, at the Aspen Hill Mobil, a cab driver was shot and killed while he was filling his cab with gas at Connecticut and Aspen Hill Roads.

At 8:37 am, a 30 to 35-year-old Hispanic woman was shot and killed while sitting on a park bench outside the post office in the Leisure World Shopping Center.

At 9:58 am, a woman was shot and killed cleaning out her car at the Shell station at Connecticut and Knowles. 9 News Reporter Dave Statter at the scene says the woman was vacuuming out her mini- van when she was shot. Witnesses say they heard a bang, and noticed the woman was underneath her car.

Police are asking people to be on the lookout for a box-delivery-type truck, with small black letters on it and damage to the rear door. Police are also asking anyone to call 911 with information.

-0-

JMax
October 3, 2002, 12:07 PM
Appears some crazy(s) is taking out unsuspecting targets. Hope for a quick capture.

JMax

David Park
October 3, 2002, 12:15 PM
Five Killed in Maryland County
Thu Oct 3,12:27 PM ET
By STEPHEN MANNING, Associated Press Writer

SILVER SPRING, Md. (AP) - Five people were slain within a few miles, gunned down one by one over 16 hours in public places in Washington's suburbs, authorities said Thursday.

One of the victims was shot to death while riding a lawnmower.

Authorities were attempting to determine whether the shootings late Wednesday and early Thursday were related. Investigators had not found any indication that the five victims were related in any way or had any conflict with anyone, Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose said.

Still, given the timing and location, "there's a strong possibity that they are all connected," police spokeswoman Joyce Utter said.

Police were looking for two people in a white cargo van, possibly with damage at the back. Several witnesses told police they saw such a vehicle leaving some of the shooting scenes.

The first slaying happened shortly after 6 p.m. Wednesday when a 55-year-old man shot in the parking lot of a Wheaton grocery store, police spokeswoman Nancy Demme said.

The man on the lawnmower was killed about 7:45 a.m. Thursday in the White Flint area, and another man was shot at 8:15 a.m. while pumping gas at a Mobil station in the Aspen Hill area. He died at the scene.

About a half-hour later, a woman died at a post office next to the Leisure World retirement community in Silver Spring. She was shot in the head, according to a spokesman for the Montgomery County Fire and Rescue Department.

Another woman was then shot about 10 a.m. at a Shell gas station in Kensington. Mechanics at the gas station said they heard the shots but didn't see the person or persons who killed the woman, who was vacuuming her van.

"We didn't see any confrontation or anybody around her," mechanic John Mistery said.

As a precaution, Montgomery County schools canceled all outdoor activities and locked down school buildings. No one was being allowed to leave or enter school buildings unless a parent called ahead to retrieve their children. The lockdown would remain in effect until police said it was safe to lift the restrictions, schools spokeswoman Kate Harrison said.

Moose asked residents not to panic, especially parents, whom he urged not to rush to schools to get their children.

Schools in the District of Columbia also canceled outdoor activities.

In Fairfax County, Va., officers were posted at the American Legion Bridge on the Capital Beltway, in case the van tries to cross into Virginia, police spokeswoman Sophia Grinnan said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021003/ap_on_re_us/maryland_shootings_4


Fatal head shots from a distance would indicate a rifle. I don't want to speculate on who or why until we know more facts.

70-101
October 3, 2002, 12:35 PM
Lock and Load in Maryland, How?:eek: This kind of event would not happed in Virginia. Because the person/persons doing the shooting know Virginia citizens have the right of self-protection. This is another example, of what can happen to a defenseless population.

OF
October 3, 2002, 12:41 PM
Maryland is a gun-grabbers paradise. Looks like it's working, huh! :barf:

- Gabe

Bogie
October 3, 2002, 12:57 PM
I could see terrorists - One or two operatives have likely essentially "locked down" the entire area. A van or panel truck, with a small hole for aiming, would make a fairly effective suppressor.

Remember - they're not out to kill people. That isn't their goal. That's what they use to accomplish their goal. The goal is to have us change our way of life.

dZ
October 3, 2002, 01:07 PM
Five Killed in Montgomery County Shootings

By a Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, October 3, 2002; 1:08 PM


Five people have been shot to death since last night within a one-mile radius in Montgomery County in the Washington suburbs, and police said this morning they are searching for two men who witnesses saw driving a white van near several of the shootings.

The shootings, most of which occurred this morning, were at two shopping centers and two gas stations and on the lawn of a house along Rockville Pike. The shooting spree has caused an uproar across the county, and the 911 emergency system has been inundated with callers offering tips. Police stopped many white vans to question the occupants.

The public school systems in Montgomery County, Prince George's County, Frederick County and the District announced they were taking special precautions to protect students and staff, although there was no indication the schools were threatened. The Archdiocese of Washington, which operates 35 private Catholic schools in Montgomery County, has told its schools to follow public schools directives. Parents are being discouraged from coming to schools to pick up their children, said Archdiocese spokeswoman Susan Gibbs.

The Montgomery County public school system issued an emergency order canceling all outdoor activities, including recess and open lunch. Afternoon kindergarten also was canceled and morning kindergartners were being kept at school. All exterior doors are locked. No can leave or come inside the schools unless a parent calls ahead to pick up children.

"We're hunkered down for the time being," said Brian Porter, Montgomery County schools spokesman. Police urged parents and faculty to remain calm.

Police said the white van they are looking for may have small black lettering on the side and damage at the rear. Witnesses to the shootings said they saw the truck leaving some of the crime scenes.

There is no indication any of the five people killed are in any way related, or had any conflict with anyone, said Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose. There was no evidence of any altercations or conversations of any nature before the victims were shot.

"These individuals had not done anything," Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose said during a morning news conference. "We need to figure out some way to stop this. . . . We strongly feel that all of these are connected," Moose said.

The first shooting occurred last night at 6 o'clock, when a man identified as James Martin was killed in the parking lot of a Shoppers Food Warehouse at Randolph Road and Georgia Avenue in Wheaton. By this morning, the stores in the area were open for business as usual. A security tape from a camera that monitors the lot had been turned over to police.

Then about 7:40 a.m., a man on a lawnmower was shot in the 11000 block of Rockville Pike.

Then about 8:10 a.m., at a Mobil gas station on Aspen Hill Road at Connecticut Avenue, a man was shot while pumping gas.

Then about 8:30 a.m., a woman believed to be in her 30s was shot while sitting on a bench at the shopping center near the Leisure World retirement community off Georgia Avenue in Silver Spring.

The shopping center is popular with residents of the retirement community, who visit the post office, coffee shop and beauty salon on a typical morning. This morning, many of them were gazing at a crime scene, while news helicopters hovered overhead.

Witnesses told police they saw a white van drive off after this shooting.

Another shooting occurred at 10 a.m. at a Shell gas station on Knowles Avenue on Connecticut Avenue in Kensington.

A woman was vacuuming her minivan. Inside one of the service bays, technician Jimmy Akca heard a boom, and went outside to investigate. He saw a woman lying by the driver's side door of the van. He saw no one else around, and went to help her because he thought she had suffered a heart attack. When he tried to assist her, he saw the blood.

County Executive Douglas M. Duncan (D), in Chicago for a conference, headed to the airport to fly home as the police gave briefed the press. Throughout the morning, he had been in touch by phone with Moose, according to his spokesman David Weaver.

Weaver said the county had activated its emergency operations center, bringing together many agencies to assist the police with everything from traffic redirection to ensuring public school students were protected.

Staff and wire reports contributed to this report.

echo3mike
October 3, 2002, 01:16 PM
it seems to have come to me. I live maybe two blocks from a couple of those shootings, and within a couple of miles of all six (corner of Bel Pre and Conn ave). Kinda wondered why Sta. 25's bells have gone off so much lately.


So I'm kinda hunker'd down with a beer and a ball game for a few hours.

Wait...d@mn it, I'm outta beer!!!!
And I'm down to my last clip of 9mm and only a couple of boxes of 30.06.


Think the bunker's secure enough...lots of patrol cars going by, looking for some panel truck. See if I can raise my head enough to go out for...provisions!


On a serious note, I thinking it's one guy with a large caliber handgun or a scoped rifle in a vehicle. No one's seen anything untoward with the victims immediately prior to the shootings, and only one shot fired in each instance, each fatal. The timing of the incidents this morning really looks like someone moving pretty much at rush hour traffic speeds to the locations between 0700 and 0830. And it's probably not terrorist related: totally random acts, no connections with any of the victims, nothing really gained except MCP running around looking for someone and showing the flag at the public schools. So some friggin' dirt bag found hisself a gun, and wanted to feel powerful in my 'hood :mad:

So glad Sarah and Katie are going to protect us with their paper-thin laws. Doom on them!!

Regards,
S.

chaim
October 3, 2002, 01:19 PM
Here's a link (http://www.nbc4.com/news/?z=nav) for coverage from a local TV station. It is their news front page, but as you'd expect the first few articles and stories (some video) are about this event.

I live about 30 min from where most of this happened. My aunt and uncle live about 15 min from some of where this happened and a cousin is about 5-10 min away. I used to work near some of this. I am quite familiar with the area. Kind of scary.

All surrounding school districts are on lockdown (except, stupidly, in my county, parts of which are no more than 10-15 min away from some of the shootings).

I am thinking it could be a terrorist activity. I've been saying for some time (to friends and family) that we need to be on the lookout for some of the smaller scale terrorist activities that Israel experiences just about every day (the big bombings we hear about here happen there, but many attacks are lone gunmen taking out a few people in public places, and even invading homes and killing the occupants). A series of smaller scale shootings and bombings can have a bigger impact than one of the biggies (they scare people more because they can more easily see it happening to them and they usually arouse less anger, where the big ones like 9/11 may invoke more anger than fear). Since there are two people it is unlikely to be a lone nut, since it is a rifle and not a pistol it doesn't really sound like a gang initiation, and they seem to be random with no connection between the victims so its unlikely to be someone who knew and targeted them.

One would hope that this would wake Marylanders up to the need for CCW. One CCW carrying citizen could (mind you only could) have stopped this. However, we're in MD. More likely there will be calls to ban or at least control those dangerous sniper rifles that are so easy to obtain that you can get them at any sporting goods store or Walmart and there isn't even a waiting period for them.:( :rolleyes:

BERETTA9MM
October 3, 2002, 01:29 PM
Wishful thinking, but maybe some good will come from this like, every one in Maryland standing up and demanding a concealed to carry law.

Jeets
October 3, 2002, 01:30 PM
All are one shot kills from a distance. Doesn't sound like an ordinary gun nut to me.

dZ
October 3, 2002, 01:57 PM
Five Shot To Death In Montgomery County
Victims Apparently Randomly Targeted
http://www.nbc4.com/news/1700579/detail.html

Victims Of Shooting Spree
6:04 p.m. Wednesday, 55-year-old man shot in parking lot of Shoppers Food Warehouse grocery store at 2201 Randolph Road in Wheaton

7:41 a.m. Thursday, man shot while riding a lawnmower in the 11000 block of Rockville Pike in the White Flint area

8:12 a.m. Thursday, male cab driver shot at a Mobil gas station, Aspen Hill Road and Connecticut Avenue in the Aspen Hill area

8:37 a.m. Thursday, woman shot in the head at a post office next to Leisure World, 3700 block of Rossmoor Boulevard in Silver Spring

9:58 a.m. Thursday, woman shot at a Shell gas station at Knowles and Connecticut Avenues in Kensington

map:
http://images.ibsys.com/2002/1003/1700971_200X150.jpg

Bogie
October 3, 2002, 02:09 PM
And something doesn't have to be "non-random" for it to be terrorists...

Let's assume that it is for a moment. And let's assume that they've ditched/disguised the vehicle (even if it was their's, and not a mistaken witness), and managed to elude pursuit. What if they fire up a suburb of Atlanta next week? And the week after that, they hit Louisville? Or St. Louis? Or Chicago? The "personal transportation" system could get rather nasty.

dZ
October 3, 2002, 02:13 PM
if the Police stop only 1 White SUV on the American Legion Bridge every half hour,
tonight is going to be a long commute

qkrthnu
October 3, 2002, 02:32 PM
They just interviewed some lady on FoxNews. Didn't catch who she was or why she was an expert but..

She made the idiotic comment somthing to the effect of "they are obviously a skilled shooter and be on the lookout for someone with a lot of Guns & Ammo magazines laying around." :barf:

foghornl
October 3, 2002, 02:48 PM
As Bogie suggested, what happens if those responsible move to another city & start shooting ? ? ? ?

I could see those person(s) responsible moving on to other no or limited CCW cities/states, like Ohio...NO CCW for Jon & Jane Q. Public here in any city. Or say, the Peoples Republik of Chikago, ILL.

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those senselessly murdered over the past 24 hours.

I am very concerned over how this is going to play out, but you can bet the media will have a frenzy over some "gun nut".

The media never remembers the distinction between a "gun nut" and "A Nut with a gun":mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Blackhawk
October 3, 2002, 02:51 PM
Then again, maybe it's one targeted victim and 4 random victims to cover up.

Does MD employ the death penalty?

David Park
October 3, 2002, 02:57 PM
What if a member of the D.C. "drive-by blowgun" crew from a while back just became old enough to buy a rifle?

MikeK
October 3, 2002, 03:08 PM
echo3mike;

I live about 2 miles east of you off of Bonifant. Drop me an email if you want to get together for some shooting some time.

Another thread on this in legal and political.

dZ
October 3, 2002, 03:26 PM
here comes the spin control:
http://www.nbc4.com/News/1701459/detail.html

Local Leaders Respond to Shooting Spree
Politicians Describe Shootings As Senseless, Shocking

POSTED: 3:48 p.m. EDT October 3, 2002

Local leaders and candidates for political office have responded to the shooting spree in Montgomery County, Md., Thursday.

In written statements, several politicians expressed their grief for the family members of the victims. "Our thoughts, our hearts, and our prayers go out to the victims, and to the families of those senselessly gunned down last night and today in Montgomery County, Md.," said state Rep. Connie Morella, R-8th District.

She continued by saying "at this point, we don't know who has perpetuated these crimes, and we don't know the twisted motivation. What we do know is that this senseless violence has touched all segments of our community."

Morella commended the Montgomery County and surrounding police and rescue crews that responded to the incidents. Also, she praised the county's school system for the actions it took "to keep our students safe and sound."


She urges people to remain calm and be aware and vigilant to report any suspicious activities to the police.

Maryland gubernatorial candidate Bob Ehrlich also released a statement Thursday. "I am shocked by the senseless and seemingly random shootings in Montgomery County. My prayers are with the families of those who have been shot and the parents of every child affected," said Ehrlich.

He continued his statement by addressing the individual or group of people responsible for the shootings. "People who engage in this kind of murderous rampage will be found and will be held to account. Maryland has some of the most restrictive and progressive gun laws in the nation that must be used to track and prosecute these killers," said Ehrlich.

Maryland Gov. Parris N. Glendening issued a statement Thursday afternoon directing the Maryland State Police to "use every tool we have at our disposal to make sure these vicious criminals are caught and brought to justice."

Five people are dead and police are searching for a gunman or gunmen that they believe are behind the apparent shooting spree. The shootings started Wednesday evening and continued into Thursday morning. Police said the victims appear to be chosen at random as they went about their daily chores.

The FBI, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Secret Service, Metropolitan Police and Maryland State Police are assisting the Montgomery County, Md., police in the investigation.

Poodleshooter
October 3, 2002, 03:26 PM
I'm personally betting that it's a gang initiation related shooting. I mean, they had to figure out that rifles were better than Lorcins at some point...
Still, this would be a more effective tactic for terrorists than spending time and money trying to learn how to make bombs.

David Park
October 3, 2002, 03:45 PM
Commie Morella said, "at this point, we don't know who has perpetuated these crimes."

Uh, I think you mean perpetrated. Maybe you can find a homeschooler to proofread your press releases in the future. Or was this a mistake by the bozos at NBC?

"Maryland has some of the most restrictive and progressive gun laws in the nation that must be used to track and prosecute these killers," said Ehrlich.

At this point, I'm guessing all of their gun control laws are providing absolutely no help in tracking down the shooter(s). That is, unless the criminals are even dumber than the politicians.

chaim
October 3, 2002, 03:51 PM
I'm personally betting that it's a gang initiation related shooting. I mean, they had to figure out that rifles were better than Lorcins at some point Doubtful. They never used them before so, while not impossible that they'd change, it doesn't really fit the pattern. Second, for their needs handguns are better anyway, ever try to conceal a rifle? Last, I doubt very much if it was gang related, especially initiation of a new member because they were a good shot and didn't spray bullets all over the place (each victim died with one single shot, I believe most were to the head).

MrAcheson
October 3, 2002, 04:05 PM
Watch as Virginia's gun laws get the blame for this by the antis because of where these crimes happened. The traditional scapegoat for Maryland's horrible violent crime rate has been that criminals get their guns out of state. Specifically any firearms crime in the DC area is almost immediately blamed on Virginia. Maryland and DC have "progressive" gun laws after all. :barf:

dZ
October 3, 2002, 04:22 PM
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I38605-2002Oct3

OF
October 3, 2002, 04:24 PM
Maryland has some of the most restrictive and progressive gun laws in the nation that must be used to track and prosecute these killers," said Ehrlich.A telling quote. 'Restrictive' and 'progressive' are synonymous as far as the grabbers are concerned.

- Gabe

David Park
October 3, 2002, 04:30 PM
I would hope that the law against murder would also be used to prosecute the killers. Maryland has a moratorium on the death penalty, but five life sentences will work.

Navy joe
October 3, 2002, 04:37 PM
Hard for me to make light of this since my grandparents property borders the backside of Seizure, oops, Leisure World.


however, this is ridiculous:
She made the idiotic comment somthing to the effect of "they are obviously a skilled shooter and be on the lookout for someone with a lot of Guns & Ammo magazines laying around."

First off, if they read gunrags the shooter(s) would have hit 3 out of 5 victims. Mechanical accuracy of the gun you know. I just love it when people flap in with the vultures to further their own agenda.

5 for 5 indicates that this is no amatuer. Unfortunately, this would be a good terrorist move, especially if they evaded capture/identity. The Washington Pravda will be covered up with this, very visible to the policy princes downtown and all. All the gun control people will scream and wail as we are left to assume that this is a wacko american. Of course the same thing happens if it is a wacko american.

Libertarian
October 3, 2002, 04:38 PM
My in-laws live right in the center of the shooting map. I hope that they fare well. I hope the cops catch this guy and he points his gun at them. (No hypocracy here. Shooting a mad dog is very different from a no knock murder.)

50 Freak
October 3, 2002, 04:40 PM
guys, haven't you noticed that there seems to be no pattern in the shootings, White Male, Hispanic Male, Black Male, Hispanic Woman, White Women.......

Seems like someone is giving us a message....Everyone, every race, every sex is not safe. Seems like to me they are actually going out and picking different races/sex, or combinations of such.

If an Asian, or black woman is killed next....that may be a pattern.

KSFreeman
October 3, 2002, 05:15 PM
50, that's a lot of work for the New Barbary pirates to "send a message." Why not a car bomb at the mall on Saturday afternoon?

Domestic nut. Good thing the good guys in Maryland can't shoot back. If they could, someone might have gotten hurt.

maxinquaye
October 3, 2002, 05:34 PM
Maybe the victims are all ATF/EPA/FAA scum a la "Unintended" - anyway, sounds like a serious shooter has a bone to pick. 5X one shot one kill, rifle caliber notwithstanding, is pretty durn good...

50 Freak
October 3, 2002, 05:41 PM
I think the message is simple,

"I don't need a bomb to indiscrimately get you, I can pick you off any time I chose, anywhere"

Think that is more scary if you ask me. Besides, maybe this person or persons don't have the know how to create and plant bombs. Too easy for a surveillance camera to pick you off. Just look at the chick that beat her kid. No one knows exactly where all of them are at all times. Better to pick a spot and "snipe" someone from a distance.

Mike in VA
October 3, 2002, 05:46 PM
Navy Joe, it's 5/6, there was a sixth shooting that missed last night (picky, picky), but your point is well made, this is no newbie.

This is just incredibly sick and sad, apparently random, senseless, viciousness.

The next bit of senselessness will be the hue and cry from the Maryland gun-grabbers, the clueless bastards who rightfully should take some of the blame for keeping the locals effectively disarmed, and who will seek ever more stringent 'gun controls' in the wake of this tradgedy. Remember the Theroy of Duh - disarming innocent people doesn't protedt them!

While we'd like to think this couldn't happen in VA, the reality is that it could happen anywhere, but on this side of the river we're at least better able to shoot back. As several have observed, all it takes is one good man or woman with a CWP in the right place at the right time to stop this foolishness.

Pray for the victims, pray for Maryland, and pray that clueless see the light - the right of life includes the right to defend that life.

dZ
October 3, 2002, 05:47 PM
the shootings form an inverted cross pointed at the White House

Ed Brunner
October 3, 2002, 05:58 PM
Do you reckon he will just head on down Connecticut Avenue?
I don't see it as international terrorism, but who knows?

dZ
October 3, 2002, 06:11 PM
if the news media is to be believed its a pair of guys in a truck

they appeared to have shot one guy last night
slept on it
shot 3 folks
had breakfast
and shot the last person

not you typical lunatic
they seem to have survival in mind

Libertarian
October 3, 2002, 06:24 PM
If it is a terroristic statement like 50 Freak posited, the would make an even better statement if they closed up shop and went away. It would show the sheeple how vulnerable they are and how helpless the police are to prevent killings.

Cosmoline
October 3, 2002, 06:25 PM
My two bucks says it's a terrorist, probably mid-east origin, and that he bought a hunting rifle legally. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a psycho. First of all, there are TWO, which means you'd have to have two people with the same kind of insanity. Second, the shootings appear to be targets of opportunity, which is atypical for most serial killers. Third, the shooting is good. I know of only one similar case, the famous tower shootings in Texas decades ago. That fellow was alone and had some sort of brain tumor. What are the chances of two guys with the same brain tumor, both hearing voices telling them to do the same thing?

Either way we'd better brace for the next assault from Congress.

One rifle in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is far more dangerous than all the handguns in the country. This is why the "oh, they won't take my hunting rifle" arguments are so flawed. All it takes is one nut or terrorist to figure it out and you've got a new million mom march. Of course, a rifle in the right hands can be used to drop the shooter, but that's unlikely in the DC area. Not too many truck guns in those parts.

Baba Louie
October 3, 2002, 07:32 PM
Come on people!

WE ARE AT WAR!

If you wanted to wage some type of "ambush" tactic on our gov't (WHICH MEANS ALL OF US), if these "Terrorists" continue this M.O. for a couple of days/weeks around the DC area, would this not have an impact on the daily workings of the govt. employees that live in the area, thereby ...blah, blah blah.

You get the drift.

Homegrown crazed "Gunman"or evil Al-Quaida trained operative, the damage to "Our Way of Life" is just beginning. Take your pick, Call out the Militia (Again ALL OF US) or dis-arm the people and become the dreaded "Police State/UN Flunky".

I feel bad for the families involved. If any of my "Conspiricy Theory" above has any truth at all, we're all victims.

Adios

HankL
October 3, 2002, 07:37 PM
Cosmoline, Charles Whitman, supposedly abused as a child, did the tower shootings in Austin Texas 1 August 1966. He was a product of an abusive father and The U.S. Marine Corps. He went off his nut and committed mass murder what we are looking at in Montgomery Co MD is a serial killer, terrorist or a product of the fine upbringing our Nation's Capitol gives to the
children

Co serial killers would have to be very unlikely.

No disrepect to The Corps. stuff happens.

Hank

Mike H
October 3, 2002, 08:39 PM
I would love to have CCW in Maryland, but I confess I don't see a concealed handgun being much use against a well aimed rifle that none of the victims even saw.

This will be used as more evidence as to how guns are evil, murderous things and that Maryland needs even stricter laws until not one single firearm remains in existence.

Inverted cross pointed at the White House, I just love this forum,

Tinfoil hats on.

Mike H

MeekAndMild
October 3, 2002, 09:10 PM
Didn't Sarah Brady buy her son a hunting rifle not too long ago?

Seriously, though I doubt he's a suspect I wouldn't put it past some dedicated (read fanatical) anti, maybe a PETAphile or greenie.

echo3mike
October 3, 2002, 09:51 PM
PETAphile...funny.

Doubt it...I can't belive any of those pus-nutted, limp-wristed, tofu-eating, pencil-necked, pansy assed maggots have the friggin' stones to do something like this...as reprehensible as it is, they just don't have the balls to go through with it.


And it ain't terrorists, gang. It just isn't big enough. One shooter (probably) with a driver, taking random pot-shots at unarmed civilians in one community. Sure it gets people scared, makes them keep their heads down for a while. But as an attack on what the U.S. represents...no friggin' way. As some sort of symbolic gesture...no, that dog don't hunt either. Al-Queada isn't dumb enough to waste a big chance on something as predictable as a symbolic date or target. As a probe or a test for something later...I don't think some sleeper cell can afford the resources to jepordize an op in what's basically enemy territory, in the way of lost manpower or the possibility of those individuals being apprehended and divulging sensitive intel. And it's only in Montgomery County. I'm thinking that most of these terrorists are smart enough not to show their hands before they're ready to call.

I gotta go back to my original thought; some lowlife dirtball gets a rifle and some numb-nuts friend to drive him around to have some fun...

Remember, this is the land of drive by blow-dartings for [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]s and giggles....they don't need to be rational.


Regards,
S.

David Park
October 3, 2002, 11:28 PM
A former FBI profiler (yeah, I know) was on a local talk show, and he said it sounded like two kids or mentally disturbed young adults. I've had that feeling all along, that it's another Columbine or Jonesboro, but this time on the road. The terrorist idea just doesn't make sense; why shoot up Silver Spring when you could literally drive down the road and shoot up the Capitol? I think it's a few MD locals. Besides, the Hamas "front" organization is located down here in Springfield, VA. :rolleyes:

One caller to the radio show said that the real crime was that MD residents were defenseless without the right to carry concealed weapons. Which one of you guys was it? ;)

MAKOwner
October 3, 2002, 11:36 PM
I hope it's not some arab terrorists, or some "militia extremists" as the media likes to call them. That will give the antis alot of ammo to throw around to play off of terrorist fears...

I believe Fox News just said they were white men they were looking for currently anyway.

cadfael
October 3, 2002, 11:49 PM
Just one quick question, can anyone explain why CNN's website has the story next to a picture of a compact handgun? Why not a hunting rifle?

Anyway, I tend to agree with the FBI profilers saying a pair of young adults.

Adam

Justin
October 4, 2002, 02:09 AM
So what's the latest word?
Have the perps been caught?
Are the cops on the trail?

As for my take on the whole thing?
I doubt that they're Al Qaeda terrorists. There's no brash symbolic statement. If they were terrorists, you'd probably see them committing a mass shooting in a place with a lot of symbolism, ie house of worship, school, hospital, or shopping mall.

It's unlikely that it's two utter nutcases of the 'my dog channeled Satan who told me to do it!' variety.

More than likely, the perps have a Columbine-style mindset. Some sort of irrational psychosis founded in delusions of grandeur and coupled with arrogant sociopathy.

dog3
October 4, 2002, 06:37 AM
I wonder.

I heard the ex-fbi profiler on cnn last night. I wasn't convinced. I am totally clueless about how the fbi profiles cases, and I'm given to understand that over all they aren't bad at it at all. Of course, it is also true -as many of us have seen, and my little bit
of criminal justice schooling taught me- that motives of criminal behaviour usually fall into a few very well defined catagories, and there aren't too many new modus operandi out there.

It will be interesting to hear the rest of the story, *if* the perps are caputured. I say *if* based on the news reports I've been able to devine thus far. Now, CNN isn't the best outfit for actually digging out stories. Anyone who thinks different would do well to read Kristina Borjesson's anthology "Into the Buzzsaw". At any rate, according to CNN and every other news agency that is just parroting what CNN says, *An* eye witness, -that's singular- as in one, saw two folks in a poorly defined van or truck of somekind leave the scene of one of the shootings. All we are told was they were men. Caucasion men? Black men? Hispanic men? Asian men? Arabic men? Young men? Old men? no one is saying. So how do we know they were even men? I guess because only men do this sorta thing. Still it is an assumption.

Monkey County has cops everywhere. It is a police state. Some of them are even really excellent policemen, others are the kind of folks
who like to kick the cr#p out of drunks while keeping a hand on their weapons. (Witness-me).

The perps have thusfar eluded them quite well.
I won't say easily because I have no idea to what
lengths they have thusfar gone to do so.

Wouldn't happen in Va? Who says? Yes, you can carry concealed in Va as long as you agree to not use your firearm. Those of you who have ccw in Va know exactly what I am talking about. It is *NOT* lawful for you to pursue an alleged felon just because you have ccw. Va is very arrogant about this. Remember, the MO thus far, is one-shot, one-kill, move on. The baddies are shooting first, they are not calling anyone out for a gun fight. The state of Va will hang you out to dry if you try and get into a gun fight. Very strange the way the gun laws work in Va. Don't bother arguing with me about it. GO READ THE LAWS. Go read the case histories. Go read about the folks in prison for defending themselves. Much less about those who came to aid of others under duress.

Yes, I completely concurr that this sort of action is the predictable outcome of having a disarmed populace. No argument here. But to say that it couldn't happen in Va, well I disagree, I think it could happen anywhere.

Couldn't be a terrorist act?

Why not?

I've read scenarios to this effect. Random one-shot, one-kill, spread out over urban and suburban areas (where the sheep live) over a period of time, with no real clue as to when or where it will happen next will, and I mean WILL get under folks skin. Certain types of people will loose it, panic and refuse to go out of doors, let their children attend school, etc.

Truth is, at this time, we don't know anything other
than some folks, or at least one person, has crossed a very distinct line, let me restate, a very distinct line. Those of you who know the law know exactly what I mean. A line that doesn't often get crossed. And that is literally all we know.

I wouldn't rule out anything. Not yet.

Atc1man
October 4, 2002, 06:41 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=3&cid=578&u=/nm/20021004/ts_nm/crime_shootings_dc

Maybe the perpetrator is Sarah Brady's son.....
:barf:

Hawkman
October 4, 2002, 07:22 AM
Article at MSNBC says it was a .223 caliber. Hope it isn't an AR-15.

FPrice
October 4, 2002, 07:33 AM
"This is not a terrorist attack. The scale is way to small and simple."

Don't bet on it. Some terrorists are pretty smart and realize that an attack of this scale can produce a lot of results, mainly anti-gun and pro-gun people arguing with each other.

I am not saying it is a terrorist attack, just don't discount that theory too early.

FPrice
October 4, 2002, 07:38 AM
"I heard the ex-fbi profiler on cnn last night. I wasn't convinced."

Does the phrase, "Round up the usual suspects" ring a bell? He is playing the statistics game. Statistically speaking this is the most obvious choice and the easiest one to go with. But statistics do NOT predict each individual case. As I told MJRW (and somebody else mentioned - just went back, it was you) it could be a low-level terrorist attack, just something designed to put us on edge.

We will only know for certain when we capture the perpetrators.

Jim March
October 4, 2002, 08:04 AM
I know of one pair of serial killers: Platt and Matix, the two loons the FBI ran into in Miami, 1986.

One of the mailing lists is talking about this, and somebody mentioned that it might be "staged". Some else said:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank St Clair" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: [concealcarry] Maryland "sniper"
>
> Please 'splain. Staged by who? For what reason?

My reply:

A LOT of gun bans have happened right after a use of that particular weapon. So if it hasn't happened already, it would be obvious to a totalitarian-minded grabber in office that a gruesome gun crime could be set up to promote a ban.

In this case, based on the low number of shots fired, and the accuracy, looks like we're dealing with a basic bolt-action in 30-06, 7mm or similar. Possibly scoped.

See, your basic high-end deer rifle is actually the gun that scares crooked politicians the MOST. That's what a sniper would use. But since it's also a common deer rifle, it would take a lot of "political energy" to get a ban going.

This is exactly the sort of shooting that would be necessary.

IS it staged for that purpose? Dunno. Probably not. But there *are* people holding US office today that are evil enough to think up something like this.

Another problem: how many of y'all have seen the Playstation game "Grand Theft Auto 3"? My roommate has a copy. Sick stuff. But interestingly, of all the guns in the game, the most *useful* is a scoped bolt-gun.

Believe it or not, I think that damn game is going to influence criminal gun use trends.

------------------

If I'm right, and this turns out to be a couple of "kids" (age 18-22ish, I know, NOT really kids) playing "GTA3" on the streets by doing sniping at 50 yards or so, God help us all.

Bogie
October 4, 2002, 08:05 AM
From CNN and Fox, it looks like they know about as much today as they did yesterday. They're guessing that it's a .223 - doesn't sound like they recovered any brass tho, so it could be anything from a .22 Hornet up to a Cheetah... Doesn't sound like they've recovered much in the way of bullets either, so they could just be going on wound dynamics, and there could be someone out there with a 6mm varmint gun...

Since they haven't caught the folks, I'm more inclined to believe that it was the first in a series of urban attacks... If it is terrorists, and they keep it up, the simple, relatively low risk, and relatively small scale operations can cause MAJOR changes on our way of life. That's what they want.

cslinger
October 4, 2002, 08:15 AM
It really makes no difference if it was Terrorist dirtbags, or our run of the mill home grown dirtbags. I've said it once and I will say it again, violence for the sake of violence should not be tolerated in any shape or form and must be dealt with harshly and immediately.

I really hope this guy never makes it to trial.

:mad:

Bogie
October 4, 2002, 08:22 AM
Another thought on terrorist activities - People have been giving 'em WAY too much credit for brains. Guys, they're low tech. They've ALWAYS been low tech. 9/11 was a superb example of what a highly dedicated force can accomplish given the simplest of hand weaponry and an unarmed and docile population.

They're trying to change our way of life. And they could easily succeed in doing so armed only with stuff they can buy at the local Wally World.

David Park
October 4, 2002, 08:30 AM
I'm still not buying the terrorist, "first of a multi-city attack" angle. Look at the map/timeline. The shooter(s) fired two shots w/one kill and one miss, went to sleep(?), woke up and killed three people heading north, turned around, killed one person to the south, and stopped. This sounds like the behavior of someone who lives in the area, or at least has a bone to pick locally. Terrorists would be more likely to shoot up D.C.

The "gov't conspiracy to pass more gun control laws" is slightly more likely, but nearly all of the MD candidates are gun grabbers except for Ehrlich (and he's not great).

Frankly, at this point we don't know who it is, and I'd rather wait until after an arrest to speculate on motive. Speculating about Muslim wackos here is as bad as the mainstream press speculating about "right-wing gun nuts."

Bogie
October 4, 2002, 08:43 AM
Possibly terrorists are wising up. DC security is fairly heavy. They can accomplish a great amount of "social restructuring" by attacking the suburbs. If they don't have the shooters, and I suspect that if they don't have 'em in the near future, they won't, we'll see this again in other 'burbs.

Of course, it COULD be kids or nutcases. Or it could be someone who had one target, and did several others to disperse attention.

The Islamists may not be high tech, but they're dedicated, and they've trained. And they plan things out.

Poodleshooter
October 4, 2002, 09:57 AM
Take a look at the info in this link from Johnny taliban's "interview" with Special Forces:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/10/03/walker.lindh.documents/index.html
Read the information on their training goals (it's in a side bar).

"The shooting course includes practicing assassinations with pistols and rifles and shooting from motorcycles and cars. Civilian warfare courses include terrorism, forgery of passports and documents, poisons, mini-explosions, and an intelligence course which teaches trainees how to avoid detection by police. "
-- U.S. Special Forces interrogation report, December 1, 2001

Chaim: Good point on my gang initiation idea. However, it is surprisingly easy to conceal a rifle...in a car.

joeislove
October 4, 2002, 10:02 AM
I'm not sure why you guys think this isn't a terrorist activity, just because it's a small operation in the suburbs. I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but it seems to me that this would be pretty close to the perfect terrorist attack at this point, especially if they can elude capture.

Terrorism isn't about killing people; it's about scaring people. Right now there are a lot scared people in MD. I bet local area schools are poorly attended today, and I'll be a lot of people call in "sick" (scared).

Washington would be a poor choice of target for a terrorist, because it is more heavily defended, especially near the Capitol, the White House, and the Pentagon. A sniper would be foolish to risk it there, because one of our own snipers might see him and shoot back. Also, you're going to be able to get a quicker response and set up a faster search in Washington, with the FBI, the Secret Service, et al, swarming around the various federal offices there. They could bring in air support in a matter of minutes, I imagine.

As for the scale of the attack, look at the kinds of attacks we see from Palestinian extremists in Israel. A lone gunman walks into rush hour and starts randomly plugging people in cars. A lone bomber walks into a supermarket or a dance club and blows himself up. A lone gunman snipes at a busload of schoolkids. Most of the terrorist operations that happen in Israel are very small-scale. The difference there is that pretty much everyone is armed; most of those attacks seem to end with the gunman being killed by return fire, many times from civilians.

I'm not saying it is terrorism, but it certainly could be.

dZ
October 4, 2002, 10:47 AM
the BATF have reported recovering a .223 bullet

at a press conference in Rockville, they had 2 AR15s an AK and a bolt action rifle on display

Bogie
October 4, 2002, 10:51 AM
Please keep in mind that a .223 bullet does not necessarily equal a .223 Remington rifle. Could be anything from a Hornet to a Cheetah...

dZ
October 4, 2002, 10:55 AM
they had 4 rounds of .223 on display and said
90% .223
10 % .222

it could of been a necked down wild cat

they are asking anyone who might have seen anyone with any of these rifles to call the police and they will determine the value of the info

mister rogers
October 4, 2002, 11:18 AM
This looks very very bad, especially if there are two people working together. That could mean you have a driver/spotter/lookout who can help the shooter avoid being detected before he shoots and get him out afterwards. And if the shooter is skilled, (the shots may not be what some think of as long range, but remember these aren't paper targets, they were people, who were moving, and who were in an urban environment with passersby and traffic, yet there were five one shot kills), therefore the shooter has some skill. If he is very skilled he may be able to snap shoot at 100 to 150 yards and that makes it even harder to catch him in the act. I hope the police can determine the angles that the fatal shots came from and then using any security camera videos that are available identify the vehicle. If they can ID the vehicle they stand a good chance of tracking it down, if it is not stolen they may then be able to ID the perps, if it is stolen they still might be able to get prints or DNA from the vehicle once they locate it.

God speed the police on this one, or there could be a lot more dead bodies. Why can't people like this perp or perps just off themselves first. :mad:

RKCheung
October 4, 2002, 11:32 AM
Well there goes any hope of the Assault Ban sunseting.

USAFNoDak
October 4, 2002, 11:38 AM
With all due respect to the seriousness of this whole thing:

We all know who this is doing the shooting. Where is Lon Horiuchi? He couldn't stand his identity being taken away for his own safety, and he is lashing out.

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist. ;)

Justin
October 4, 2002, 11:48 AM
Seems that they've reported a shooting in DC that they think might be linked to the other 5.

I also saw the display table, they had one bolt gun, one AR15, a Daewoo, and what looked to me to be an FNC.

They pulled all of the scary tactical nastiness out that they could in order to scare the sheep.
:barf:

DMK
October 4, 2002, 12:00 PM
Why are they guessing "assault rifle"(misnomer) when they haven't recovered any brass?

Granted, they are probably firing from inside a vehicle, but it's awful hard not to lose some brass with a semi-auto.

Sounds like a bolt action "hunting rifle" to me and with one shot kills, there isn't a firearm law on the books that would have prevented this.

RKCheung
October 4, 2002, 12:37 PM
there isn't a firearm law on the books that would have prevented this.

Not yet anyway. You better watch for additional legislation from Brady and company.

archeryfanatic
October 4, 2002, 12:55 PM
Why are they guessing "assault rifle"(misnomer) when they haven't recovered any brass?

Cause any guess is better than saying "We're really not making any real progress in this case just yet"?

Robert J McElwain
October 4, 2002, 01:12 PM
Pardon my ignorance but I'm primarily a handgun shooter.

Wouldn't a .223 be more of a varmint rifle than a deer rifle? It seems that this is the caliber that a lot of guys use here on the plains to hunt prairie dogs.

Bob

12GA
October 4, 2002, 01:22 PM
"This is a person who has stacks of "Guns & Ammo" magazines in his home. This is someone who really likes weaponry. " :rolleyes:

Connie Chung Interview (http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0210/03/cct.00.html)

Libertarian
October 4, 2002, 02:25 PM
Robert J McElwain, the confusion over the caliber of the shooter's rifle was not settled until thil morning (and it is still up in the air over what type of .22 it actually is). That the kills were done with a single shot implies to many a bolt action rifle. Since most "deer" (implying hunting) rifles are bolt action the connection is made there.

Not the best of logic but someone already said that a wildassed guess is better than saying "we don't know anything yet."

Mike in VA
October 4, 2002, 02:33 PM
Well, they appear to e using a riflle, and they are attacking proactively, so it must be na "assault rifle"?!?!:confused:

My wife's theroy is that it's a hit - one intended victim, four random others to screw with the cops. I think it's a couple of whack-jobs, myself.

I think that as responsible gun woners, we're all horrified, embarassed, and outrqaged by the perpetrator(s), and it is indeed true - there is no 'gun law' that would have prevented this, not even confication, because scumbags do what scumbags do, and they'll find a way to get a gun if that's what they want.

I also think that we are all equally offended by the way the anti's will be dancing in the blood of the victims as they try again to disarm us. Rather than deal with the real problem - evil people - they will go after inanimate objects that the majority of the population enjoys responsibly with no ill effect.

With apologies to the choir.:rolleyes: :barf:

Kharn
October 4, 2002, 02:56 PM
.223s arent very popular in MD: you can only use rifles in two counties for deer, and then the rifle has to have >1200ft-lb at the muzzle, also, almost any semiauto other than the mini14 needs to be registered with the state (HBar AR15s dont need to be).

My money is on a scoped T/C Encore or Contender without a buttstock, short, simple and easy to hide in a car before arriving on scene. But I still say Maryland Ar15/AK fans should prepare to bend over and grab their ankles, as the governor's race is starting to include gun control positions. 18 damn months till I can leave Maryland in my dust forever.

Kharn

chaim
October 4, 2002, 03:41 PM
There MAY be two more victims.

About 15-20 min away in a part of DC that is minutes from the Mongomery County border a man was shot and murdered last night (about 9PM). One shot to the chest, probably a rifle.

Today (within the past hour or so) a woman was shot in a parking lot in Frederickburgs, VA (about 30 min for yesterday's shootings). She was in a parking lot of a shopping center loading groceries, apparently picked randomly, shot from a distance with one shot probably with a rifle. She is still alive according to the last report I heard (minutes ago).

If it is terrorism trying to effect our lives it is working. I was out last night in the vacinity of yesterday's shootings (went to a kosher restaraunt in the area, actually about 1/2 mile from one of the shootings) and the roads were about as busy as they usually are around 11pm-midnight. It was only 7:30/8:00 PM:eek: !

ATTICUS
October 4, 2002, 04:08 PM
Since we're all speculating...here's my guess: It's two twenty something psychos with a mile long history of anti- social behaviour (ala Harris and Kliebold), who watched the video of "Summer of Sam" or such, saw the Nebraska bank murders, then decided it was time to live out their demented fantasies and get even with the cruel, cruel world. One's probably driving while the other is shooting out of a port of some kind (sound contained mostly in the van).
Do they read Guns and Ammo...maybe...probably eat Big Macs and drink Pepsi also.

CZ Gunner
October 4, 2002, 04:20 PM
Have read a few reports, but haven't read one that says they HEARD anything?

How about it .. possible silencer?

12 GA .. saw the interview you mentioned .. pretty sad. Feds probably going over subscription list this very moment!

ballistic gelatin
October 4, 2002, 04:28 PM
I think a suppressor and bipod may have been utilized. How about a "luxury" van with rear sliding tinted windows and soundproofing material?

The whole thing is sick. AR's potentially now illegal in every state...and I sold mine a few months ago, what a mistake.

12GA
October 4, 2002, 04:59 PM
12 GA .. saw the interview you mentioned .. pretty sad. Feds probably going over subscription list this very moment!
YIKES! :eek: <runs to the coffee table and grabs two handfuls>Uh, these must have been delivered to the wrong address. I'd better put them in a safe place.:D

MessedUpMike
October 4, 2002, 05:07 PM
Chaim, you wouldn't happen to be visiting BJ Pumpernickels where ya?

OK more seriously now. As much as I'm in favor of carrying, CCWs would have been useless. Can't shoot a BG nobody sees. Nobody apparently saw much of anything. There are a few witness reports of hearing a "bang" but that's it. I tend to suspect that shooting a rifle from inside of a van would create sufficient noise buffering to throw off witnesses. We're not talking about ninja attacks against spetzna here. I have my doubts this is some sort of organized terrorist action here, I'm betting on a lunatic or two running amuck. Said BG is not taking terribly long shots (under 100 yards by my reconning), and probably from a statioary vehicle. White box trucks are not in short supply around here, as I'm sure my fellow Maryland inmates can tell you, so dissapearance is not all that hard.
Not to go off on a tangent here either but Montgomery's County Mounties aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed either. In twelve years of running Fire/EMS calls in some of the worst areas of the DC metro area the only time I ever had to fight a patient on my own was on Ga. Ave. in Wheaton while 2 MCPD watched.

MeekAndMild
October 4, 2002, 05:54 PM
We should not underestimate the potential that this is a political ploy intended to change the results of the mid term elections. The timing is just too coincidental to entirely rule out a pair of well paid thugs. This sort of thing happens all the time in central and south america, why not in the US.

OK, now pass me my tinfoil hat. :rolleyes:

Pendragon
October 4, 2002, 06:12 PM
From the Foxnews web site:

"I was petrified to even go to the store last night," Saez said. "My kids were scared. They didn't even want to go outside. They're more scared now than on September 11."


Maybe loonies, maybe political deeds, either way, the method seems to give good odds for success. The random nature rips people out of their "it can't happen here/to me/in this area/" thinking.

This could spur calls for gunshot detectors/locators - they do exist and you can bet that certain politicians have been salivating at the idea of installing them...

cwalker3
October 4, 2002, 06:53 PM
We should not underestimate the potential that this is a political ploy intended to change the results of the mid term elections. The timing is just too coincidental to entirely rule out a pair of well paid thugs. This sort of thing happens all the time in central and south america, why not in the US.

Also my first thought. Townsend's campaign is in trouble and what better way to sway all those 'undecided' voters than a little carnage brought on by a wacko with a gun. Especially one with a so-called assault rifle. I put NOTHING past the gun control fanatics, i.e. liberals, in this state.

NIGHTWATCH
October 4, 2002, 07:08 PM
I cant help to think as some here already do that this is an attempt to undermine any hope of seeing the assault weapons ban pass into history. How can anyone who cherishes the RKBA do this? Had they wacked 5 anti-gun politicians I would have thought, this not so bad a thing, but innocents? This is bad. :(

LBC
October 4, 2002, 07:19 PM
cwalker3 -- are you saying you firmly believe that a Democratic candidate for office in Maryland has hired a person or persons to commit murder to help him win an election? or did that just spill out? Do you want to edit your post? or are you just plain dumb? I thought "libs" were weak and lilly livered and didn't have the guts and the smarts and the ..oh well, you know. You read these boards too. or could it be a clever GOP ploy to cast aspersions on themselves so they can lash out at the democrats? or MAYBE a liberal is doing it to get the GOP to THINK they did it, but they're not sure, so they can scream "smear!" or MAYBE GWB is just bored and needs to work off some steam. or MAYBE it's a frustrated ducks unlimited member fed up with... nevermind.

if they catch the guy or guys, and they're red-blooded Americans with gun permits and gunsafes and registered republicans, will you eat your hat? or explain it away as some democratic scheme? or what?

Bogie
October 4, 2002, 07:22 PM
My brain done 'ploded.

MeekAndMild
October 4, 2002, 08:02 PM
LBC I took his statement to mean there might be fanatics who would do anything to see her elected, not necessarily that she personally ordered it. Your alternative possibilities sounded like they were not well thought out, nor do they have the ring of truth.

Misdirection, mob rule and violence toward innocents have been political tools for millenia. Suggest you take the time to read Thucydides (http://classics.mit.edu/Thucydides/pelopwar.html) history. Look in the Sixth Book, for the discussion of the defacement of the Hermae where Alcibiades was set up for political loss by means of an infamous religious desecration. This later resulted in the destruction of the Athenian army.

Jim Keenan made the assertion on another thread that:
And Michael Barnes, new head of the Brady Campaign is an old line leftist, buddy of Castro and Ortega, who has said he would do anything to promote gun bans and defeat Republican candidates.
I looked it up and can't find anything to disprove this assertion.

Zorro
October 4, 2002, 09:46 PM
X, or Current Military Sniper.

The guy is "Shooting and Scooting."

Police Snipers don't do that, neither do varmint hunters.

Brass is not being found, so I suspect a bolt action despite all the AR-15's and other black semi-autos the police are showing the press.

Also there are not any 30 round salvos being fired.

Ammo is reported to be Military 5.56MM based upon bullet analysis. Older type 55 grain/surplus.

Also note the area, Washington DC area, Probably has served at the Pentagon at sometime.

qkrthnu
October 4, 2002, 09:56 PM
Articles about the terrorist suspects just arrested mentioned that one of them trained with the U.S. Reserves.

I'm not familiar with Reserve training, but if you want to combine the ex-millitary & terrorist theorys its plausible.

dZ
October 4, 2002, 09:57 PM
shiney side in or out?:

Terror link to Maryland shootings?
Experts divided on whether killing spree work of al-Qaida
Posted: October 4, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Though al-Qaida training videotapes and manuals captured in Afghanistan specifically show the planning of attacks on Americans in drive-by shootings, experts who have analyzed those materials are cautious about concluding the murder spree outside of Washington yesterday is connected in any way to terrorism.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29178

WND HOMELAND INSECURITY
2 'Hispanics' sought in D.C.-area hunt
Be-on-lookout alert describes shooters' race
Posted: October 4, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Paul Sperry
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

By Paul Sperry

ROCKVILLE, Md. -- Police in the Washington suburb where five people were gunned down in two days are looking for two "Hispanic" men in the fatal shootings, according to a police bulletin that federal authorities shared with WorldNetDaily.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29188

labgrade
October 4, 2002, 10:13 PM
Just kind of of a quick scan to keep up to date relative to the TeeWee reports on this .... & some random thoughts.

1) semi-auto, fired from the driver's front seat will usually bounce off the inside windshield & to the passenger-side floor.

2) bolts don't

3) 5 for 5 DRT - whatever the nutcase, this guy's (gal's ?) a shooter. Bettin' on a scoped bolt gun. No idea on the range, but there's not many that'll do DRT 1-for-1's with a handgun.

4) Apparently, "ballistic experts" have recovered enough bullet material to dial in same-same shot on four of the folks. = not enough hi-velocity to make it a varmit rifle to detonate to totally disrupt anything ballistically foresenic other than spectro-analysis on the gilding material - wondering.

5) "lock-down" at the local schools & "don't panic." Yup & right-O.

Gotta be absolutely kidding me. If I had a kid there, "it" would home with me under proper guard toot-sweet. Whadda they take us for? & who the F didn't go get their kid!?

6) All those in power's worst nightmare. A "dedicated" "nut-job" with a dialed in scoped deer rifle = the classic "sniper-gun" - & he ability & will to just do it.

Yeah, yeah. Don't go there. I only mention the capability, not the deed itself. Seems the "doer" is clearly a nut-job with no specific political bent .....

However, one - one, mind you, rifle-folk, with a scoped & goodly deer-gun, could do drive-bys from Maryland to Kalifornicated & do 10 a day & there'd be not a single thing that anyone could do to prevent 'im.

Nothing.

Oh. & do the drive back as well ......

Only thing would be to have some association with the vehicle.

Other than that = total impunity.

Scarey, huh?

simonov jr
October 5, 2002, 02:21 AM
-I've heard plenty of reports about a "boom" heard by witnesses, and how exactly were you "silencing" supersonic .223 ball?

- CCW would have done PLENTY of good in the case of the witness who saw the white truck "at close range" speed by after shooting, according to reports I saw.

- This IS middle eastern terrorism, but NOT organized Al-Quaida. I think this is a smarter version of the Egyptian jag-off who attacked the El Al counter at LAX. Remember, the one the FBI was strenuously assuring us was "not terror" but "only" an angry Ok-ball upset over our support of Israel. I think this is a Middle Easterner who lives or has lived in the Wash Metro area, probably with some military background since I don't know many Okballs who shoot as a hobby.

- Finally, it can't be an "assault weapon", since they are "meant to be sprayed from the hip" :rolleyes:

DadOfThree
October 5, 2002, 03:25 AM
- CCW would have done PLENTY of good in the case of the witness who saw the white truck "at close range" speed by after shooting, according to reports I saw
Forgive me if I missed it but I haven't seen any reports that said they saw anyone actually shoot from the van. They saw a van speeding away from the scene but didn't see anyone actually shoot from it. If that is the case are you saying that a CCW holder in the area should have opened fire on the van? What if they were just trying to get away from the shooting? We know now that there was a white van at each of the shootings but the people there had no clue at the time that that was the case.

joeislove
October 5, 2002, 03:55 AM
I've heard plenty of reports about a "boom" heard by witnesses, and how exactly were you "silencing" supersonic .223 ball?

If you had a sound suppressor, you would be able to conceal much of the actual sound of the explosion driving the bullet. There would be no way to "silence" the supersonic crack (the sonic boom) as the bullet displaced the air it traveled through.

However, this would still be quite misleading, as the sonic crack travels at right angles to the projectile. So if there were two observers who heard the sonic boom, and the bullet traveled between them, they would both point toward the other as the "source" of the sound, but both would be off by about 90 degrees.

If you had several witnesses, you could triangulate the source of the shot by drawing lines at 90 degrees from the direction where each witness says the sound appeared to originate.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just thinking off the top of my head here.

SW9M
October 5, 2002, 07:49 AM
I think it is not a nut job (Colombine style) random shooting spree. The MO is perfect for this to be a terror attack.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the "one shot" only. If I'm not mistaken it is almost impossible to locate the source of a gun shot if only one shot is taken.

This is apparently a deliberate action from the shooter and part of the MO.

Their linking the DC shootings (at least one) to the MD shootings. May be the start of the defined pattern?

I aggre with simonov jr, I think this is like the El Al at LAX.

Gary H
October 5, 2002, 10:14 AM
Where does a "nut job" find a "nut job driver"?

This, in my mind, ties in with the U.S. terror arrests. These folks traveled the world to get to the fighting in Afghanistan. I seems to me that they started their journey from the country that they hate. Why did they have to go anywhere to fight? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that a few hundred well trained shooters could cause serious psychological damage through such acts. Of course, it is also a great strategy when killing one person for reason and throwing in the rest for information overload. In either case, I think that these acts were coldly calculating. No wild man here.

One remark with regards to the caliber...

.223 is NOT the caliber of choice for long range sniper activity. In order to get reliable one-shot kills, these guys need to get a bit closer due to choice of caliber. So, we are dealing with someone that has practiced sufficiently to hit a target reliably, but either doesn't have the money, or the expertise to select the proper tool for the job at hand. Granted, most urban locals have limited range possibilities due to obstructions.

LevelHead
October 5, 2002, 10:55 AM
Was it windy?

Drop of a .223 (Rem 55gr JHP):

200: -2.7
300: -10.9
400: -26.0
500: -50.5

Assuming someone one of negligable skill - I'd say 300yards (no wind) is max range for one shot kill. Dialing a scope is fine, but in my experience the shooter needs more than knowledge of drop - steady hold is necessary etc.

Assuming someone with negligable skill - 200 yards is a stretch if they can't hold the gun steady (nerves). Bipod and such would help to be sure.

Someone with high skill - easy shot up to 500yards, but someone with high skill (I'm assuming) would not choose .223 for this mission - unless you didn't want it to look like a pro. Man this is starting to hurt my head.

Lets assume 300 yards. Some of these were at small malls. Where can you be within 300 yards of a small mall and not be seen? I'm not familiar with the area to be sure but...

Now snipers deliver panic, which they're clearly doing here.

Couple all this with: "Shoot and scoot" tactics, multiple targets in a short amount of time, no real apparent pattern, etc.

Somethin' ain't right.

Nutjob? Maybe. Pair of nutjobs? Maybe. Ex mil? Maybe.

I guess I just proved that it could be damn near anyone, and that's the problem.

LevelHead

Justin
October 5, 2002, 01:46 PM
I seem to recall reading that Police snipers are rarely in a position where they have to make a shot at more than 70 yards.

Given urban/suburban layout, it's unlikely that these shots are being taken at more than 100 yards.
At those distances, .223 will be plenty effective.

As for shooting from inside a vehicle, my guess is that if it is indeed a large truck, they may simply be shooting from the rear compartment through a cracked window or something. That would do plenty to muffle the sound.
If he/she is shooting from the driver's seat, more than likely they are aiming through the passenger side window. So you'd have a muffled gunshot, and it's pretty unlikely that someone would see the rifle.

As for the whole Al Qaeda/Middle-Eastern terrorist speculation...
I don't buy it. The videos of the Al Qaeda training show actions that are meant to be blatanly obvious, dramtic stuff that involves jumping off of motorcycles and shooting indiscriminately.

Same goes for the guy who tried to shoot up LAX. He didn't care if anyone knew who he was.

Religiously-driven terrorists don't care if they get caught, and are more concerned with making a statement than they are with getting away.
In fact, you could probably even assume that the terrorist's death would be part of that statement as a way to seek martyrdom.

I'm sorry, but so far the methods being used just don't seem to fit the methods that would be employed by religious fanatics.

Justin
October 5, 2002, 01:53 PM
One quick note on what the politicians are going to say about this whole thing once it's over.

Even if it turns out that the crimes were committed with a scoped, bolt-action rifle that only has a capacity of 2-3 rounds, this incident will be used to not only renew the AW ban, but also make it stricter.

"After all" the politicians will wail, "These horrible crimes were committed with a bolt-action gun. But there are other guns out there that are chambered for the same bullet, and have bigger clips! Just imagine how many more people would have died if this person had used an assault weapon chambered for this .223 death-dealing round. Therefore, I suggest that we ban all rifles chambered for this round."


No matter what, this whole thing is going to be muy bad juju for gun owners.

Kharn
October 5, 2002, 03:00 PM
Caliban: It already started creeping into the campagin: http://library.northernlight.com/EC20021005190000042.html?

LBC
October 5, 2002, 04:35 PM
My alternatives were all facetious. And I shouldn't lose my cool. My gut feeling is this is a just a maniac with a gun who will die a violent end. Then good riddance, but he'll leave dozens of ruined lives in his wake. What a tragedy.

Kaboom
October 5, 2002, 05:30 PM
They have faded into the woodwork and will reemerge in a month or so. This has pure terrorist written all over it. As far as someone competent to use a 223 at longer ranges, how long have they been here practicing? They also picked a fairly populated area to work in. More people to create terror among. We aren't going to like the end result of this. Watch for the same activity in other large population centers.

MikeTx
October 5, 2002, 06:30 PM
What if it is terrorists, and they have just changed tactics?

MessedUpMike
October 5, 2002, 07:53 PM
I'm still not sold on the CCW thing here, prorbably ought to start a seperate thread. The best witness report is still a white van. Even if this much was seen by a CCW'er what are you going to shoot at? The van? From my perspective responsible shooting requires not only knowing wht your target is, but that it is a good target. Bets thing a CCW could pull off from what I see is shooting out the tires. From then on any other option goes into mall ninja territory.
The fact that these individuals can be called terrorists in the purist sense of the term is true. They are causing people to be afraid. It took me 15 minutes to get a piece of pizza at Laurel Mall yesterday because I had to spend the first 10 trying to convince the pizza girl that BGs weren't going to come in and shoot up the mall (I was in the food court). I'm not so sure they're anything worthwhile though. A handful of single shot shootings falls way short of the MOs that have been previously used against the US so far. It doesn't make it impossible, but I think we're stretching to far here.
For what it's worth I doubt seriously we're looking at long range shots here. The Liersure World victim was shot from under 200m. That's the max distance from Georgia Ave to the store fronts, also the farthest shot. Michael's is less than that, Shoppers is under 100m, and the gas station may well have been under 100 ft. even "Super" gas sations aren't much bigger than that. The ranges the shootings are taking place at are all well within the ability of any idiot with iron sights and a rest. Hell I can drop 75% of my shots in the 9 ring off hand at 50 yds, and I would hardly call myself a marksman.
It would be nice though if a CCW could get them. Would sorta make the whole "debate" one sided real quick.


Mike

Gary H
October 5, 2002, 09:14 PM
Concealed carry simply makes things more risky for the bad guys. How could that make a difference with respect to terrorism? A state with a five percent concealed carry population and a resident BeenDoggin's crew might think about moving elsewhere. I would think that they would go where the risk of being stopped was least and the prospect for unimpeded long term terror was greatest. In other words, a state like California would present a terrorist with large numbers of helpless sheeple.

archeryfanatic
October 5, 2002, 10:34 PM
a state like California would present a terrorist with large numbers of helpless sheeple.
Let's not give them snipers any more ideas ok? :eek:
Things are bad enough here already.
Something like this happens here and the pro-grabbers will ban all guns for sure and confiscate all the existing ones! Then it'll just be a matter of time before other states follow suit.
And only when the SHTF will they realize what a big boo-boo they made but of course it'll be too late then.

David Park
October 6, 2002, 12:03 AM
Both the Virginia and D.C. shootings have been linked to the Maryland shootings. That means the shooter was active Wed. night, Thu. morning and night, and Fri. afternoon. It is anyone's guess when or where the shooter will turn up next.

Despite the rhetoric that Muslim extremists hate "our country" or "our freedom" I think they mostly hate our government, our military, our riches (big business), and our support of Israel. They usually choose to target these areas. Even the lone nut in LA didn't just randomly shoot up the airport, he chose the El Al counter. I agree that the local shooter is a "terrorist" in the same way that the Louisiana serial killer is terrorizing women in Baton Rouge, but there is no reason yet to believe the shootings have a political, religious, or ideological motive.

My guess is that the shooter matches the current FBI profile, but I'm doing the same thing as the FBI: guessing. There is simply very little information to go on so far.

Gary H
October 6, 2002, 12:24 AM
David:

Are you suggesting that the basis of conflict is different than that which existed three centuries before the "Crusades" began? I suggest that it is exactly the same and is based upon scripture. Now, I don't for a minute think that the real motives of many of the folks at the top are that straight-forward. Power is alluring.

simonov jr
October 6, 2002, 02:52 AM
"May be the start of the defined pattern?"

Thank you for that. I think most of the rest of you are missing the boat on this one. The target and the effect of this is identical to the suicide bombings at the discos and pizza parlors in Israels: terrorize the general population to demoralize them and score propaganda victories back at the mosque. What better way to stoke your ego and quench your 3rd-world jealousy than to see yourself "striking the enemy in his very capitol"? If you want that effect but have no explosives or operatives, THIS is what you do instead.

As to the "Islamic militants want to die in their attacks", that is bozonic. The suicidal tactics are a a necessary means to the end, and are a response to the absence of mechanical delivery systems and/or the presence of heavy security. Do you think Bin Laden would have bothered commandeering 767's if he had had cruise missiles to hit the buildings with? If these chowder heads can KEEP killing over time with the same assets, does any thinking person doubt they will? With that said, I don't think this is ORGANIZED terrorism. Bin Laden or Hussein didn't say, "Okay Samir, you're leaving Baghdad on a operation. Infiltrate the US and attack the Michael's at the Aspen Hill Mall". You get the point. No, this is a local of middle-east origins who has activated his own cell a la "leaderless resistance" concept. For the few of you here unfamiliar with it, it is the idea of a general insurrection by disconnected individuals or groups who share nothing but a common ethos, in this case militant islam. Most of the "cells" they are rolling up right now are such angry Islamic militants with NO direct connect to Al Quaida. Think about it. If YOU were a disgruntled Ock-dot in Montgomery County MD and wanted to do something nasty about US Israel policy, war on Iraq, etc., what could YOU best do to cause mass panic? My mother told me today she went to the Giant in Aspen Hill and a woman was laying down on the front seat of her car listening to the radio while her husband went for groceries. That sounds like pretty effective direct action by terror to me. This is a naturalized Montgomeray county Middle Easterner (familiar with the area, SPENT THE NIGHT betwee shootings, and traveling the roads there like a local) who is disgruntled and taking a page from the US Mil. sniper doctrine. Get used to it. Hopefully people here will get the idea that WE'RE AT FKN WAR and this is what HAPPENS in a WAR. BTW, police have set up a "command post" at the Mobil station's quickie mart, wonder why...The Chief of Police actually stood next to anti-gunner Doug Duncan and said, "The only thing these victims had in common was that they were all defenseless", before urging people "not to stop living their lives". Give me a break!

Apple a Day
October 6, 2002, 08:09 AM
Last week there was a case of 4 kids in the Tidewater area of Virginia driving around Williamsburg taking turns shooting out the window of a car using a .22LR, which belonged to a brother of one of the shooters. One dead, at least one other injured. The 4 kids were 17&18 years old. They were caught and are being charged.
Considering it was in the nearby area it's not unthinkable this is already a copycat crime.
Maybe it's just me but I'm troubled by the fact that the media is playing up the marksmanship skills of the shooter(s)... tantamount to a dare for more copycats.
Thoughts?

cracked butt
October 6, 2002, 08:20 AM
My guess is that the shooter shot from completely inside of the van. Opened a cargo door a crack and then fired. If you keep the muzzle inside something like a van, the muzzle flash should be pretty well hidden as long as the door is mostly shut. The body of the van would act like a silencer, changing the loud crack to more of a sound of a very loud popping of a bag when heard from the outside. Low frequency sounds are difficult for human ears to pinpoint. Bullets flying through the air are confusing. I've worked the pits on many high power rifle shoots, you really wouldn't know where the bullet came from by the sound it makes unless you already know the origin, even with bullets flying right overhead.

another okie
October 6, 2002, 02:13 PM
Maybe it's Puerto Rican nationalists/terrorists.

RKCheung
October 6, 2002, 04:44 PM
Anybody see the relevance of several people shot filling their tank at gas stations or putting things inside the trunk of their car. Could be related to US foreign oil policy perhaps?

FPrice
October 6, 2002, 06:16 PM
"Anybody see the relevance of several people shot filling their tank at gas stations or putting things inside the trunk of their car."

Nope. Other than being relatively stationary targets.

answerguy
October 6, 2002, 08:01 PM
IIRC- the cabbie that was shot dragged himself over to a silver mini-van before dieing. The owner of the mini-van was interviewed by CNN, or the like. They did not show her face, they said they were protecting her identity. The next day a lady was shot loading groceries into a silver mini-van. Coincidence?

illuminatus99
October 7, 2002, 04:47 PM
my wife works for NOAA and just got a memo saying that one of the people killed in the shootings was a NOAA employee in their marine and aviations operations office.

Zorro
October 8, 2002, 01:16 AM
Dirty Harry 1971 (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0066999)

This is almost like the original Dirty Harry Movie.

Possibly a movie/gun nut?



http://i.imdb.com/Icons/poster_under_licence.gif

Bogie
October 8, 2002, 10:12 AM
You know, the guy can darn near do this indefinitely, until someone gets lucky, if he waits 3-4 days between targets and takes his time.

archeryfanatic
October 8, 2002, 11:14 AM
what if this is all a distraction/diversion of some kind? the longer this goes on, the more people gets murdered, the more resources we'll have to devote on this case, the more attention we focus on it .... and while all eyes are on the hand that jiggles and move, the other hand sneakily does something else.
I used to think it was a psycho with a gun and I keep asking myself "why?" and I can't come up with a reason that would make a person shoot random targets.
So now I'm beginning to accept the terrorist theory for all this.

Hawkman
October 8, 2002, 12:27 PM
Been thinking about the terrorist angle and wondering "why individual shootings" vs "suicide bomber". The answer I came up with is - it is harder and more expensive to replace a suicide bomber over here, so preserve your human assets by having them assassinate individuals rather than blow themselves up in a crowd.

What do y'all think?

MeekAndMild
October 8, 2002, 12:34 PM
So now I'm beginning to accept the terrorist theory for all this.

I've been interviewing and talking to the criminally insane for many years, at one point having had nearly a dozen murderers in my 'collection' of 'customers'. I have been wondering whether this is a terrorist or a political militant but have not seen any information pointing to a 'nut'.

Zorro
October 9, 2002, 10:00 PM
Tarot Cards?

Psycho RPG player.

lgm_rambone
October 10, 2002, 11:11 AM
I still say it is a government operation. Whether domestic or foreign. I can see the U.N. dropping off some scum bag to push the U.S. into getting rid of the 2nd Amendment and further the cause of Global Disarmament.

Disarming citizens of their gun rights is a GLOBAL GOAL. The US will the be toughest to disarm, but with these attacks it will be easy, as the sheeple beg for protection and want the removal of guns from the country.

Pistols and Assault Weapons have been under attack for years, but now hunting rifles will be also. Only thing left is the shotgun. So once the Rifles are banned look for the next serial shotgun mass murder killer guy.

http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/geno/shottie.gif

archeryfanatic
October 10, 2002, 11:22 AM
Zorro,
How did you get RPG from Tarot? :confused:

Gary H
October 10, 2002, 12:14 PM
lgm_rambone:

Do you really believe that the U.S. government would enlist someone to do this thing? I would say that this is right up there with the Arab belief that the U.S. government was behind 9-11. You did include "domestic".

tyme
October 10, 2002, 01:19 PM
GaryH, do you really believe the government would try to set up a white male on NFA charges, then get pissed when he wouldn't turn informant, then shoot his defenseless wife and son in response? Do you really believe the government would burn down a compound because Reno had a bad day? Do you really believe that the government would sell Iran arms for hostages, use some of the profits to illegally finance contra rebels, and pocket the rest?

Sure, it's a stretch. But what do you believe? And don't tell me that the investigations of the deaths of the Kennedys, MLK, and others were all convincing and accurate in their conclusions. There's so much stuff that went on during the Cold War, I wouldn't put it past corrupt governmental agents to try to drum up additional "excitement" now that there's a Republican president and an economic downturn.

Okay, I've got to get rid of this hat now.

Disclaimer: Don't believe anything I say. I'm reading a book about James Angleton and I'm a bit unstable right now... I'm just spreading disinformation. Right?

Gary H
October 10, 2002, 01:32 PM
No, I don't believe that it is even remotely possible for this to be a U.S. government operation. Do I believe that the government does F.U. things..sure. Is it possible that some misguided government employee is responsible..sure. I don't believe that this is directed by those in charge at the higher levels of government.

MessedUpMike
October 10, 2002, 01:34 PM
That's not much of a stretch. I don't know how many people i used to know who played D&D type rpg game who carrie various card decks with them to. On the other hand most of those typre would have been completely incapable with a firearm. Those that knew anything about the cards they where carring would probably aslo left a different card like the king of swords or something. I'm only semi-familiar with atrot cards myself as they were carried by a lot of people I used to know.

Bogie
October 10, 2002, 01:40 PM
Well, my girlfriend mentioned that she's bringing a deck of cards to Knob Creek for solitaire in case she gets bored...

lgm_rambone
October 10, 2002, 08:22 PM
Do you really believe that the U.S. government would enlist someone to do this thing?

U.S. Government is a big place. For every worker who believes in the oath they take their is someone who is working on moving this country towards a Socialist State. Is it POSSIBLE that a dept in US Government would do this? I would say 'Yes it is POSSIBLE".

I believe that there is a Global Disarmament movement and that it maybe a good idea to keep that mind.

You going to tell me we do not have people in Congress that want to take away guns? Personally, I think these people will stop at nothing to reach their goals and if that means they get some guy to be a sniper, they will do it.

Socialist do not have an issue with using force to get what they want, actually it is the only way they get what they want.

http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/sarge/Eye_anim.gif