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View Full Version : OK, heres what they did to fix my p-32


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September 11, 2002, 03:49 PM
My p32 broke after about 18 rounds (it might have been 17 or 19 or something around there). They replacedthe trigger axis, spring, and pin. They polished the feed ramp. They test fired. Hopefully it will work now. They didn't charge me for the expensive return shipping. There armorer was on vacation, but she fixed it as soon as she got back and overall it took 17 days from the time it was sent in. Thats not bad and if it works, i'll be happy.

denfoote
September 11, 2002, 04:02 PM
Cool!! Let us know hot it works!! :)

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September 11, 2002, 09:38 PM
just shot a good bit through it at the range, the only ammo it failed to function on were the American Ammunition .32s (which was kind of expected considering their crappy reputation for feeding)

Blackhawk
September 11, 2002, 09:40 PM
Thanks for the followup report!

blades67
September 11, 2002, 10:13 PM
Imagine if they'd just make them right the first time.;)

alamo
September 11, 2002, 10:20 PM
There have been a couple of threads about American Ammo some time ago. The overwhelming concensus was that this ammo is to be avoided at all costs. A few folks reported that it damaged their pistols.

Blackhawk
September 12, 2002, 12:39 AM
Imagine if they'd just make them right the first time. Don't have to. Got two new ones "made right" the first time out of two KT guns bought.

If Kel Tec spent the time and labor resources to give every gun off the line the thorough inspection and check out need to ensure they were all "made right" instead of leaving the breaking in and "final inspection" to customers, their guns would cost $100 more, they wouldn't be as popular, and the Kel Tec cult would never have developed.

Being an incurable DIYer, I really enjoy the KTs, and they are without a doubt the most fun to have, shoot, and mess with than any other gun I've ever had. They're definitely the most fun at the range, and they get more ooo's and ahhh's than the tricked out super custom cannons out there because they work, they're accurate, they're cheap, and fun to shoot.

There's nothing quite like nailing a 2" target from 50' with a tiny P-32 when your buddies miss with their big bucks .45 tack drivers, unless it's taking a shot with their .45s and missing just the way they did....

"It ain't you, it's your gun. Here, try my little Kel Tec..." (I do have a perverse sense of humor at times...! :D )

...
September 12, 2002, 06:12 PM
I also have a sub 2000 that I had to send back and its still unreliable, that being said, I think i'm going to lean away from Kel-tec

Joe the Redneck
September 12, 2002, 07:24 PM
Nothing makes a man feel more confident about his pistol than knowing that the maker just threw it in a box, shipped it off to the dealer, and left the final inspection to the customer. I can just see yours truley here waddling out to his car, the BG comes at me, I pull out my trusty Ket-Tec and think, just how many rounds DOES it take to know a gun is "broken in."

YIKES!

I had wanted to try a Kel-Tec 32, but is quality control REALLY that hit and miss? I've never had any trouble with any of the defensive handguns that I own. (I am not including the old H&Rs and other junk guns that I own, as these are used only for plinking. And as most of them are pretty old, I don't expect too much from them.)

Are most owners happy with their Kel Tecs?

Thanks and good shooting.

stevesmith7
September 12, 2002, 09:46 PM
Well, I've got a brand new P11 that has been perfect out of the
box, and an old (serial 4xxx) P32 that would have a FTE once and
a while. Sent it in for the chrome slide upgrade and it came back
polished and test fired. It is now also perfect.

Steve

Shootin' Shane
September 12, 2002, 10:41 PM
If Kel Tec spent the time and labor resources to give every gun off the line the thorough inspection and check out need to ensure they were all "made right" instead of leaving the breaking in and "final inspection" to customers, their guns would cost $100 more, they wouldn't be as popular, and the Kel Tec cult would never have developed.

You're kidding right? :rolleyes:

David Scott
September 13, 2002, 07:58 AM
We had some failures to extract with Thelma's P32 when we first got it. Shipped it back to Kel-Tec, it came back 10 days later a completely rebuilt gun. I popped for the $20 hard chrome slide, and they replaced the springs and the extractor for free. Good service, nice folks.

mini14jac
September 13, 2002, 10:30 AM
I've said it before, but shoot, I don't mind repeating myself. :p
If KelTec would make the guns right the first time, they could probably sell them cheaper.
As warranty service, rejects, and returns went down, profit margins go up.

Of 5 P32s that I have been intimately involved with, 4 have needed repairs.
Number 5 has only had about 2 mags fired in it, so the jury is out.
We have two (my wife and I) that are reliable guns, but both have had FL vacations, and I have worked on them myself.

Just this week, KelTec sent me, free of charge, a hammer spring, and hammer block for my brother's gun.
Occasionally, the hammer doesn't fully reset, giving a short stroke and light strike.
The parts will fix this hopefully.

Yes, they have room for quality improvement, and no, it wouldn't make them more expensive.
Without the "fixer-upper" image, how many more guns do you think they would sell?

The good news:
They sent me a free KelTec pen and screwdriver with the free parts!:D :cool:

karstho
September 13, 2002, 04:10 PM
They sent me a free KelTec pen and screwdriver with the free parts!

No fair.. I only got the screwdriver.. I could use a pen too!!:(

the duck of death
September 13, 2002, 05:33 PM
*Quote*
If Kel Tec spent the time and labor resources to give every gun off the line the thorough inspection and check out need to ensure they were all "made right" instead of leaving the breaking in and "final inspection" to customers, their guns would cost $100 more, they wouldn't be as popular, and the Kel Tec cult would never have developed

Well that pretty much does it for me with Kel Tec. I'll bet you never get a job working PR for them.

deputy tom
September 13, 2002, 11:52 PM
Oh,I don't know.I used to own two different P11s and I used to own a P32.All of which were un-reliable.Now I own an almost broken in P32 with 150 rds thru it.On round number 19 it quit cocking.The dealer reset a spring inside of it.At round number 32 or 33 it failed to extract/eject.Not a big deal.It's not broken in yet,right?Well I'm not convinced so You'll notice it's in the classified section.I'm sure some Kel-Tec enthusiast will eventually end up owning it.Until then it stays in the safe.No more Kel-Tecs for Me!tom.:(

karstho
September 14, 2002, 12:01 AM
I'm crossing my fingers... Gonna hit the range tomorrow to pump 200 rounds through mine to prove that it's reliable...


Wish me luck....

fjrogers
September 14, 2002, 12:49 AM
I have shot over a thousand rounds through my P-11, 150 of them today. I have had Two FTE and no other problems. I blame the FTE's on my limp wrist, trying to take careful aim and not quite ready for the round to cycle. A P-11 is a very light handgun, if you are not mindful of your grip....some problems may come to light. I have been very happy with my P-11 and feel it has been a very good value for it's cost.
Be Safe,
Fjrogers

Marcus
September 14, 2002, 07:47 PM
I think we tend to loose perspective quite easily on forums like TFL. For every guy who complains about a flaw or problem with a gun on here there are probably thousands who have been 100% happy with their new ____. Just like in any other business you almost never hear from the satisfied customers but you sure as hell do from the few unsatisfied ones! My favorite locat gunshop has sold more Keltecs than any other handgun for several years running now (and they don`t really go out of their way to push them because they make more money of higher priced guns) and they tell me they`ve had 3 or 4 customers complain of problems in that time,which is no more than those who bought any other brand of gun (in lesser quantities). My own Keltec P-11 is an early production piece with over 9000rds. through it of many types of ammo. No problems whatsoever and in that time it`s has 2 jams,one some years ago when as friend fired it with his palm *behind* the slide (doing speed rock drills) and 1 failure to fully feed when it was a)filthy dirty b)dry and c)shooting win. cheapo whitebox ammo(I lightly tapped the back of the slide and it chambered, fired and continued to chug along for the rest of the session). I recomended one to a relative,his was one of the P-11s that had the slide stop pins that woud sometimes pop out a little and lock the gun up. That was unfortunate but a call to Keltec had a new pin (actually 3) to him in 24hrs which fixed it. It was 100% reliable after that but he sold it anyway because someone convinced him a Kahr would be better. The Kahr is great but jams more frequently than the "unreliable" Keltec after it`s 5sec. fix. At this point I think he would have been better off keeping the Keltec. Marcus

Blackhawk
September 15, 2002, 12:24 PM
No, I'm not kidding, and I'm not looking for a PR job at Kel Tec! :D

Both of my KTs NEEDED a serious cleaning right out of the box. They were lubed, but the manufacturing crud hadn't been properly removed beforehand. That made it slippery crud. Cleaning and lubing after manufacturing and assembly takes about an hour but it could be done in half that time my a hustler. That's a labor and benefits burden of about $30 less profit and cost of money on that $30.

If either one had been fired, it certainly wasn't fired the 100 rounds KT says are necessary to break them in. Ammo cost would be about $10 plus facilities expense, EPA and OSHA compliance equipment and procedures, company provided equipment, and another $30 or so for the hour of labor required.

We're already at another $70 in cost less profit on those costs. KT is cranking out about 40,000 pistols a year, and we're talking about another 80,000 hours of labor. That's going to require another 40 employees just to do cleaning and testing. That requires another 4,000 square foot building with toilets, etc., so the turnover rate isn't exorbitant because uncontented employees are more trouble than they're worth.

When you add all that stuff plus other things not mentioned, the guns are easily gonna cost another $100.

It's a lot less expensive to have a great service department to handle the small percentage of guns that don't measure up than to ensure that every single one does. The "Kel Tec cult" is largely driven by passing those savings on to customers.

Knowledgeable buyers are going to clean, lube, and fire a minimum of 100 rounds through a new gun before trusting it no matter how extensive and thorough the manufacturer was before shipping it. If I'm going to do that anyway, I LIKE getting "paid" to do it by having a lower purchase price. Besides, I LIKE being intimately familiar with any gun I'm going to be relying on.... :D

Double Naught Spy
September 15, 2002, 04:59 PM
No doubt that as Americans we have to be proud of the quality products we make when we turn to Kel-Tec and American brand ammo.

I wonder how many folks carry P-32s as their "it's better than nothing" gun. Somehow, it is frightening for me to think that.

Blackhawk
September 15, 2002, 05:26 PM
I wonder how many folks carry P-32s as their "it's better than nothing" gun. Somehow, it is frightening for me to think that. You need to keep the context of the comment in mind.

What they actually mean is that if they didn't HAVE a P-32 they wouldn't be carrying anything -- they would carry NOTHING -- so it IS better than nothing.

Is a P-32 the best all around carry gun? No, but when you can't carry your bigger CCW, and the choice is between nothing and a P-32, which do YOU think is better?

22lovr
September 16, 2002, 10:44 AM
My ancient P32 (ser #035xx) is now at the factory getting a hard-chromed slide and a rebuild. Mine was 100% reliable right out of the box. All I did was break it down, clean it up, polish the feed ramp and go a-shooting. Not only that, but it like all the ammo I fed it - JHP or FMJ. I can hardly wait to get my old friend back.

In all my dealings with the factory staff, I have received polite, patient, and helpful assistance.

No, the .32 auto is not a "stopper" round but when fired by someone who knows how to handle a P32, that 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc shot has gotta begin to hurt like hell.

Alex Johnson
September 16, 2002, 11:10 AM
Blackhawk, your theory is flawed. I don't know what your occupation is but my background is a Master's in Industrial Technology with heavy emphasis in marketing, management, and customer relations. No matter how you approach it, it is almost always cheaper in the end to adopt a strategy of zero defects. Now does that mean that a company is going to accomplish this goal, rarely, but it does set a precedent that is going to help them in more cases than it is going to hurt them. Sending out a flawed product does more damage than just a few unhappy customers. First it costs the company more to fix an unhappy customers product than it would have to solve production problems at the source so they never developed, two unhappy customers spread the good word about their dissatisfaction through numerous outlets like the firing line. In time a companies success in the market place is going to be decided based on there reputation for quality products vs. price and as long as you are producing a product that is reliable and reasonably priced you will continue to make money as long as there is a demand for it.

alamo
September 16, 2002, 11:45 AM
Don't think we're talking about very many returns overall here and I think Blackhawk is on the mark. They have one P-32 gunsmith and they've made almost 90,000 P-32s. Another gunsmith handles P-11s and Sub Rifles. If they had that many pistols coming back, they'd need a lot more people. Plus, their turnaround on repairs is very prompt which means that the gunsmiths aren't swamped and overworked.

Blackhawk
September 16, 2002, 10:15 PM
Alex Johnson,

Good for you!

The flaw in your premise is that you assume that Kel Tec intends to "Send... out a flawed product...." That's just stupid. No manufacturer ever intends to send out a product that's going to do anything BUT create happy, satisfied, and ecstatic customers.

But it happens that products go out the door that fall short of perfection. Surely you studied the differences in QC between what's needed for industrial grade hydraulic components versus those intended for the aerospace industry? No? Try a factor of 3-10 times the cost! Do they work the same? Yep. So what's the difference? Design, materials, inspection and testing at every step of manufacturing and assembly.

BTW, I employed a fella with a similar educational background to yours. I was hoping he could apply what his degree field implied, but he ended up on the production line to learn the difference between "practical" and "theoretical" because his orientation was heavy on the latter and light on the former.

For your own edification, you might study the American automobile industry up until the mid '70s and contrast it with the Japanese automobile industry that applied all the vaunted academic theories of engineering economics and marketing, but which ended up producing the Toyota Toyopet, which didn't have enough power to go up the ramp to the display stage at its unveiling. After it and a few other boondoggles too heavy in theory and light in practicality, Japan (with government help) retooled the industry to produce the high quality products that brought the "let the buyer be final QC" American automobile industry to its knees in the '70s.

A good rule of thumb is "you don't know anything until you've got a track record of success."

BTW, you don't have a background. You've got some book learnin'.... :D

yzguy
September 17, 2002, 09:42 AM
just to add my .02 about customers with problems spreading the word to others...

I have heard of a few customers that have had there problems with KT pistols, but a vast majority have ended up satisfied with the end result (weather it be a fixed pistol or KT actually buying it back in at least 1 case). Only a few have ended up unhappy and some of them stopped trying and gave up, and a few others got rather irate quickly (would you want to help them??).

I do not judge a product or company by it's mistakes (if you look hard enough EVERYONE and EVERY COMPANY makes them) but it is how they correct their mistakes that stands out to me. Any gun can malfunction, and I would bet that every manufacturer (of mass produced guns, not custom hand assembled) has sold new guns to the public that malfunctioned (I have no proof of this, but I challenge anyone to disprove me). I was a bit reassured by the knowledge that if I were unlucky enough to need repair for one of my KT's that I would be quickly and courteously taken care of without question. So hearing about others problems (while at first upset, they usually had satisfied endings) with their KT's actually helped convinced me to get one (and then 2).

Alex Johnson
September 17, 2002, 11:35 AM
I'm sorry you think so little of education. I do have experience working for companies that manufacture products so I have had actual experience to go along with my so called book learning. I still don't see anything wrong with finding problems in the manufacturing process and fixing them at the source before they are used to create a finished product that is flawed. There are plenty of products turned out in this country that have good reputations for quality and don't cost an excessive ammount of money to produce. What I said before was what I've learned through books yes, but those books were written by people who have worked in Industry for years and are trying to teach others what they have learned in the course of their years. Theoretical, some of it may be, but I have worked for companies that valued that knowledge. The only real resistance I've encounterd in industry has been from some individuals who have worked there way up the ladder from experience and hard work alone, they do seem to be threatened by the younger crowd with college educations which is unfortunate because there is something to be learned from both sides and a fresh perspective of viewing the situation is not bad in todays competitive economy. I do not mock your opinions, but I do question them, which is what I've been trained to do. If we all accepted old ideas at face value there would be no growth and no improvement.

Oh and to get back to the contrast between American and Japanese automobiles. The quality of a Japanese car in the 80's and early 90's in my opinion is beyond comparison with equivelent American products. Low powered is not a flaw if the intention was to get superior gas mileage, I drove a Nissan Sentra for 6 years with no problems, a racer it was not but it sure was good on gas and had adequite power for any normal use. Now that American companies have started following Japanese manufacturing methods and adding a few new twists the gap has narrowed, buy I can still find no fault with either Nissan's or Toyotas.

Blackhawk
September 17, 2002, 10:22 PM
I'm sorry you think so little of education. I never said anything of the sort. The fact is that education is no substitute for experience, and experience gained after receiving a fitting education is far better than OJT.

Your comments on the Japanese automobile industry in response to mine suggest that you'd do well to do what I said. Study the Japanese automobile industry that produced the Toyota Toyopet, which was one of the classic marketing blunders made when the venerable (in Japan), hopelessly underpowered car was introduced into the U.S. only to be withdrawn in 1957 and abandoned.I still don't see anything wrong with finding problems in the manufacturing process and fixing them at the source before they are used to create a finished product that is flawed. There isn't anything at all wrong with that. But that's not only what I was addressing earlier. I was addressing the whole business problem, not just manufacturing. Perhaps taking the Business Administration courses you missed would help you fill in the gaps in your resume. Then after you worked in all facets of running a manufacturing business for a few years, you'd understand the cost of money, labor, opportunity cost, and all the other facets beyond physically producing a product that are involved in the problem.

My opinions are there for the mocking or taking. Makes no difference to me....