Which .308 rifle to buy?

[richardb]

I am contemplating my first rifle, the features I want are: .308 Winchester, self loading, semi-automatic.

The three designs of rifles I have looked at are:
1) AR-10 (specifically the Armalite AR-10)
2) FN-FAL (for example the FN-FAL Sporter .308 Semi-Auto)
3) HK G3 (I have not found a genuine G3, but companies like Hesse Arms make clones based on the design).

If any of you have experience with these or others, I would like your opinion. I am trying to find pros & cons on these rifle designs, availability of parts (especially magazines), and specific recommendations on which one to purchase. That's pretty broad, I know. Thanks in advance.

BTW, I have already considered an AR-15. They are cheaper (even a Bushmaster is hundreds cheaper than any of these), and parts are easier to find (gun shows have tons). But, I like the bigger bang and I am not afraid to pay for quality. Perhaps I will get one later.

Thanks again!
Rich

[Destructo6]

I had a similar dilemma, but I'm poor. I went with an STG-58 parts kit ($200) assembled ($90) on a DSA Type 1 FAL receiver ($450). I bought the required number of US made parts so it's legal ($200) I'm going to have the whole gun refinished in Metacol III ($120)

The rifle is elegantly simple. The gas stays far away from the bolt/carrier group (unlike the AR series), so it's easy to clean. 20-rnd FAL magazines are very easy to find for $5-$15. Mag pouches, like the Canadian C1 types or the Belgian canvas ones, are easy to find. The integral bipod on the STG is very handy also. Besides, who wouldn't want, "The free world's right arm"?

While I love HKs (only Sara Brady couldn't), they are a pain in the butt to clean, your brass is destroyed (if you can find it), and accessories, although plentiful, are quite expensive. I wouldn't touch one of those Federal Arms receivers with a 10-ft pole. I'm sort of looking into one of those Hesse Arms receivers, but having trouble actually located one to evaluate.

The May 1998 edition of "Guns & Weapons for law enforcement" reviewed the Armalite AR-10, and there were a few things I didn't like about it. It's magazine is a modified M-14 magazine that are only supplied in 10-rnd capacities (Armalite will modify your 20-rnd mag). The gas system is still the filthy AR type. It's supposed to be quite accurate, but parts would be more difficult to find than either the HK or FAL.

[jimc]

for the money as destructo6 stated an fn/clone is by far a good investment and acc( mags ,parts) are available reasonably priced. also as was pointed out to me an M1-garand tanker in .308 is also an option. if you want to up the money spent (the ar-10, hk range) look into the M-1A/14 rifle approx. $1100. nib and this style of rifle will feed any type of .308 you load.

[othermarc]

I have a Sringfield M1A rifle and she is a dream. I have a pre ban 20 rd clip, and from what I understand, springfield has some more hi cap mags to sell.
What I love. The rear aperature and front blade military sights. Easy to field strip and clean. Very accurate, and I am talking the standard issue. I don't know how much better a national match is. Low recoil for the calibre, due to it being gas powered and weighs about 10 pounds. They are battle tested tough.
A lot of flexibility comes with an M1A. Various stocks, barrels and accessories are readily available. They are very popular rifles, so that availablity will always be there. If you are into competition, there are matches nationwide. Even if you are not into competiton, you may want to after buying this puppy. I wasn't thinking about competing until I bought an M1A.
Good Luck on your decision. Let us know what you pick and why.

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Live Free or Die

[Destructo6]

You didn't mention the M1A, so I didn't either. The "loaded" (NM barrel, trigger, etc) Springfield M1A's retail for about $1200 and they're supposed to be extremely accurate. Accessories should be easy to find as well. One of these "loaded" M1A's out there has my name on it (if only I could find the money with my name on it).

[richardb]

You are right, I did not mention the M1A, I did not find out about it until after the post. I have visited the Springfield web site and checked them out. Thanks!

[richardb]

After my latest research, it looks like the Springfield M1A is at the top of the list. Why the M14 design? Several reasons:

1) Accuracy. I've read dozens of testimonials from users that say this rifle is dead accurate, averaging only and inch or two spread at 100yds.

2) Weight. Some people might be put off by the 10lb. weight of the gun, but I feel that it helps with this big a bullet.

3) Looks. It does not look like an assault rifle, and so may slip through the net of ever tightening assault rifle regulations. This is an extremely small concern of mine, but I thought the point may start another discussion...

4) The "Loaded" Springfield M1A has a lot of top-quality upgrades priced right. Right now I think I want the black fiberglass stock with the stainless steel barrel (#MA9826).

The issue is not closed yet, because it will still be a month or two more before the $ are saved up.

Thanks for your opinions, especially about the M1A!

Rich

[Destructo6]

I can't imagine the M1A being much heavier than the FAL or HK91. I really like that "loaded" package. It's an excellent deal in my book.

[James K]

Since for most of us full auto is not an option, I will vote for the M1A. They are accurate, reasonably pleasant to shoot, easy to clean, and there are still plenty of good parts, including good wood stocks. The M1A/M14 drawback is that it is a conventional stock rifle and is totally uncontrollable in FA fire. The others are better that way, but...

[fubsy]

I have to agree with the m1a's and until that was picked up the thread I was jumping up and down muttering to myself...here m1a...there is another rifle you might consider....although its older and slightly heavier and dosent handle as fast for me as the m1a---but I shoot it alot.....that rifle would be the m1 garand it is normally in 30-06 caliber although I have owned them in 308 and would like to have another one in that caliber with a shorter barrel.....you can currently still order one a year from the civilian marksmenship program,CMP(it used to be the dept of civilian Markmenship),dcmp....you can rifles in various grades for corresponding amounts....Ive currently ordered a rifle for $325 sans wood.....and depending how the barrel is will probably rebarrel in 308....just a thought.....good luck...fubsy.

[Jeff Thomas]

richardb, I don't own an M1A yet - just salivated over them. Certainly your use and personal preference will control, but I respectfully suggest you look at one with a wood (walnut?) stock before you buy. I think this is a beautiful rifle.

[Paul B.]

Guntests Magazine just did a test on the M1A, FN-FAL, and HK-91. Picked M1A as the best of the bunch, FN-FAL seconds, but were not too happy with HK. This id from APR 99 issue. This is the only gun mag that will call a crappy gun crappy. They accept no advertising, so are beholden to no one.
Paul B

COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

[James K]

I plain don't like the HK, but the main problem is that parts, magazines, etc. may become hard to get. FALs have less of a problem, but the day may come... Any U.S. military rifle will generally have a good parts supply for many years. (There are brand new original parts for Civil war guns still around.) M14 production was stopped with literally tons of already finished parts in the hands of manufacturers; these were dumped on the market and are still around cheap. Magazines are plentiful, though no longer cheap (mine cost $2.50 each, so I bought a few).

Jim

[Destructo6]

Paul B.:
Out of curiosity, what did they have to say about the HK? I used to own a SL-6 that functioned flawlessly will all types of ammo and was very accurate, although very dirty. If their military weapons are anything like my HK, they've got to be pretty good.

[Art Eatman]

I've had an HK 91, an M1-A target model, and a Garand. Still have the Garand. My interest in military stuff is purely-for-fun shooting, and the Garand suited me best. I don't shoot it enough to worry about parts all that much, but it is a reasonable consideration as mentioned by Jim Keenan.

To me, when you're looking at anything over eight pounds or so, recoil is not a factor. It's also very easy for any reloader to tone down the loads, with lighter bullets and/or less-than-max powder charges.

And, for me, the esthetics is important in my choice of any gun, whether rifle, pistol or shotgun. Since I've never had any malfunction problems with my "pretty" guns, I see no point in HKs--and the old Garand is reasonably attractive for a military gun, as well as historical...

FWIW, Art

[Destructo6]

I was able to examine the Hesse Arms G3 receiver today. It was pretty rough around the edges, quite literally. The stamping had very rough edges and the welds were uneven and ragged. Neither the ledge/hook that the grip-frame attaches in the front nor were the pinholes that attach the same in the rear appeared to be on straight.

Overall, though it did look very much like the HK, having all the same ribs, holes, and even the claw-lock bulges. Maybe this one was just a bad example, but I will keep my eyes open.

[Dave Finfrock]

I was able to examine the Hesse gun today as well. It's not an HK, but it's not $2000 either. Finish was pretty good, but it didn't have the same "feel" of operation of a real HK. Regardless, it's lightyears ahead of the Century Arms abortion, assuming it works. Personally, I feel these HK clones are a gamble. They might work and hold up, or they might not.

As for more reasonably priced guns of this type, my favorite is the FN49. Although a bit slow to reload, they are very accurate, reliable and effective. Parts are plentiful and the gun is very easy to maintain. The 8mm version is the cheapest to feed and obtain at the moment. I've seen some .30-'06 variants floating around, but they cost significantly more than the 8mm's.

[4V50 Gary]

Regarding the HK91 v. FN FAL controversy, Mykl said it first - try both, buy both! Gawd how I use to enjoy shooting those guns in the days before Kalifornia became a model crime free state (1989 KA assault gun registration/ban).

As far as accuracy is concerned, I would unhesistantly vote for the AR10 or SR25 gas impingement system over the delayed blowback of the HK, gas operation of the M14 or FN-FAL. Simply put, there are fewer moving parts which require consistent lockup. The stamped HK reciever does flex, which is why the PSG1 had the additional bars of metal welded onto its side. Additionally, for reloaders the HK has a fluted chamber which wreaks havoc on the brass. It's balance is not as nice as either the FN or the M14. But what a fun gun to shoot. In its heydey, it was the .308 rifle to get.

The FN-FAL and the M14 has too many moving parts. While the M14 can be accurized, it is a very high maintenance firearm which requires rebedding every now and then. Did you know that headspacing on the M1 Garand and M14 can be based not only on the barrel, but also wear on the bolt locking lugs and the corresponding locking points on the receiver. It's not simply a matter of screwing the barrel on and hoping it's tight. Those other parts wear too and on the M1/M14 bolt, wear can also be uneven, causing the bolt to cant as it gets used more and more. This is just one of the minor things working against the longevity of that type of action as a sharpshooting instrument. Not a flame (as I love my Garands and my Smith Ent. M14), but a technical observation.

While I like the AR10 and SR25, I won't spend the money on either. Of the two, I believe the SR25 has a better barrel (Soviet inspired 5R rifling). The AR10's advantage is the magazine is adapted from the M14. You don't have to drop $100 for a twenty round high capacity on the AR10. Just send your M14 mag in to Armalite and they'll modify it for a fee. If anyone has any doubts as to these overgrown mouseguns, remember that David Tubb uses a highly modified one for 1k yard shooting.

I've rambled long enough and apologize to all. Excuse me, I've been on the midnight shift.

[richardb]

I went to a local dealer that had two Loaded M1A Rifles: Both had a carbon-steel Chrome-moly lined barrel, one had a walnut stock, the other a black fiberglass stock. The walnut rifle was $1409 ($1590 list, according to http://www.springfield-armory.com), the black was $1359 ($1449 list). That seems to be a fair price, I don't think markup on guns is all that high.

Both felt very nice, my first impression was that the black felt nicer. But, it's going to be a tough decision. Any opinions on walnut vs. artificial stocks? If I'm spending this much on a rifle, an extra $50 is not that much extra for the wood.

Also, as part of their "loaded" deal, they offer discounts on two of their scopes, both of which are tuned to .308 match ammo, and both have range finding and a bubble-level. Do any of you have experience with Springfield scopes?

[James K]

4V50 Gary,

Good morning, Gary. I was interested in your comment about headspacing on the M1/M14 rifles. All rifles can change headspace as locking lugs and lug seats compress from firing. The M1 type is no more susceptible to this than is any other rifle. Assuming a properly made receiver and bolt (not all M14 clones fit that category), it takes many thousands of rounds to affect headspace. M1's were often fired 7-9 thousand rounds in endurance tests with no significant effect on headspace.

On another site, there seems to be mass hysteria about headspace on M1 CMP rifles. Buyers seem convinced that the guns will all blow up if not checked and that they have to be checked every few rounds. Where does this nonsense come from? I got "flamed" for even hinting that one might actually shoot the rifle first and see if there were any problems.

Jim

P.S. I think the actual bolt lug bearing surface on the AR-10 is less than that on the M1/M14.

Jim

[othermarc]

richardb,
I hope you are going to shop around a few other gun dealers before paying that kind of money on a rifle. If they are NIB, then I think that is a fair price.
Unless you are going to be sniping from a few hundred yards in varying climates, the wood is fine. I prefer the look of wood, but I bought the figerglass because of the texture on the grip areas. Very nice. In fact, everyone comments on it. In the end, if you can't make up your mind, you can buy a second stock! then you can pretend you have two different M1A's. That's my plan.

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Live Free or Die

[4V50 Gary]

Jim,

You're right about it taking thousands upon thousands of rounds before any problem would evidence itself. My apologies to our members if I unnecessarily raised the hue and cry over headspacing on the M1 family. What I was trying to point out, albeit not very successfully, at which point I must attribute it to my recent stint working graveyard, that headspacing on the M1 type actions are not based solely on the barrel & bolt fit and that if a M1 did not headspace properly, it may not be remedied by replacing the barrel. Be that as it may, the M1 remains a sound design which has and shall continue to provide yeoman's service into the next millenium. If it were not so, I would not own more than one myself.

By the way, I was not aware of the ensuing panic over CMP Garands and cannot divulge the source of such unwarranted concern.

In closing, I'd like to thank you for providing a balanced perspective to our members at The Firing Line.

Gary

[James K]

Thanks, Gary.

I was not referring as much to your posting but to another site where a lot of CMP stuff is discussed and everyone advises the newbies to buy headspace gages because the CMP M1s could all be bad and blow up, etc.

You may not be old enough to remember the same thing when the old DCM sold M1917's and M1903's. There were big warnings about excess headspace. I never saw one that actually had excess headspace, but panic reigned, complicated by folks who had no idea how to use a gage and hammered the bolt shut on it.

Oh, well, it sells headspace gages.

Jim


[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited April 27, 1999).]

[Rifle]

FYI, emailed Hesse for some info on their H91 rifle.(G3/HK91 clone) They DO NOT have magazines available for the rifle!! Just the one that comes with the rifle. What the hell? Shows they have zero commitment to the rifle if you ask me. They sell a butt load of different spare parts but not the magazines. Jeez.



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Life is hopelessly complex for those who have no principles.

[4V50 Gary]

Thanks for making me feel younger Jim.

[Alpha]

In the Marine Corps JROTC program at my school we have our own rifle drill team. We use M-14 rifles and we toss, spin and throw them to each other. Sometimes we drop the rifles during a throw on hard concrete. The rifles always survive the crash, although the wooden stocks do break. I would consider a M-14 as an extremely durable rifle compared to the toy-like AR-15. Besides, the M-14 was used by Navy SEAls during Desert Storm because of its long range firepower.

[Destructo6]

Alpha, actually they use the M-14 on a regular basis because it's one of the few ways one may use .308 without carrying an M60. Besides, there are still quite a few still in the Navy (for line throwing and whatnot).

[chink]

I watched the marine corps silent drill team throw around those m-14 with the bayonets on them. damn thats cool. i wish I could do that, but I'd probably kill myself the first day when I started day dreaming about Halle Berry as the bayonet plunges into my heart

[BigG]

The SA M1A is a fine rifle. I have the wood stock version. If you want precision, I would think the synthetic stock would be more consistent than wood. M14 stocks are available in SGN for unbelievably low prices so don't let the type of stock on the rifle you're considering be a major stumbling block.

Although there are some hK freaks out there, I am not one of them. I have had experience with HK products since the '60s when they brought out the HK4 interchangeable caliber pistol to the G3 German service rifle, to the current PSG-1 precision rifle. They are not my cup of tea, either from an engineering standpoint, pricing, or asthetically. The guns are clunky, destroy brass (if you ever find it), and extremely overpriced for what you get.

I'm told the Armalite AR15 type weapon is very good. If the AR10 is as good as the AR15, it would be a good choice.

I don't think the FAL is one of FNs better efforts. But the ones being currently imported can be had for $5-600 which makes them more attractive.

You pays yer money and you takes yer choice!

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Son of Liberty