165g. vs. 180g. for elk

[redrider]

I will be using a 30-06. My Dad has always used Sierra 165g. HPBT in his .308. I have read that alot of people use the 180g. Do you think one is that much better than the other. Someone told me that a HP will expand too quickly, but it's not like it's a big magnum so I am not sure what to believe anymore. Maybe you could help or just confuse more (ha ha).

[labgrade]

Sierra's reloading manual says (regards that 165 gr HP GameKing:

"2700 - 3200 (muzzle velocity) & 150-500 yards for hunting" & (closely paraphrased) " designed along the same lines as their MatchKing bullet with a heavy jacket for deep penetration .... HP eliminates point deformation & target accuracy."

All told, I'd guess this to be in the running for a good .30-06 bullet for elk (as would Sierra's 165 SP GameKing). I loaded some up for a bud (after load development, etc.) but he hasn't yet had a chance to poke an elk. This year should give some feedback.

I've used the Sierra 180 GameKing with excellent results on Colorado elk - from 20-200 yards, as has my bud - it's our "standard" .30-06 loading.

Some HPs are designed differently than others. Sierra's 168 MatchKing is not designed to expand. It's designed to fly straight & true - to punch holes in things - & if it expands at all, it's by "accident." Not so with their 165 gr GameKing, which is designed to expand & be used on game - different HPs for different purposes - it is all controlled by jacket & hardness of lead core, design.

Running the 165s & 180s through a chronograph, my rifle & Federal's Premium line, I found that in my .30-06, the 180s have a tad better trajectory, downrange punch, etc. But having never shot an elk past 200 yards, it doesn't matter one bit.

If you put that 165 GameKing HP in the right place, I'm sure it will do the job.

A .30-06 165-180, with a decent bullet, arguably is in the running for THE all 'round north american cartridge for everything. If ever in doubt, step up one grain weight to the next heavier bullet. Doubtful you'll be disappointed within any reasonable range.

The 165, at .308 velocities, seems to provide a "theoretical paper trace" that says the 165 is a bit "better," while the same holds true for the 180 in .30-06 velocities.

[redrider]

that was about the best, most complete answer any could ever hope to get. thanks for taking the time to enlighten a student of the sport.

[labgrade]

You are quite welcome, redrider, & if nobody has yet, welcome to the best late-night firearms answer machine on the 'net. ;)

Some more very good information over at TFL's hunting forum.

[Art Eatman]

I've been using the Sierra HPBT and SPBT bullets ever since they were first made.

At close range from my '06, say within 75 yards, the 150- and 165-grain bullets are still fast enough to come apart, and sometimes not exit. This is not an "always" event.

I had a 165-grain HPBT blow the whole offside shoulder off a smallish (90-pound) doe. Looked like a Peckinpaugh movie. Conversely, I had a 150-grain SPBT blow up inside the neck of a mule deer that dressed 150 pounds. He was paralyzed, of course...

On my steel plate at 500 yards, the 180-grain SPBT makes a much more noticeable crater than does the 165-grain HPBT. This makes me believe that there would be better penetration on an elk with the 180-grain SPBT.

It is my understanding that the flat-based bullets are less likely to come apart than the boat-tails, for a given weight (And, I guess, mostly in the 150- and 165-grain weights). Has to do with jacket thickness, as I understand it.

There is no significant difference in trajectory inside of 400 yards, for either the flat-based or boat-tail. Certainly not under 300 yards from "in the field" conditions.

I would load either the 165- or 180-grain SP flat-base for elk (based on hearsay [and "here" say :) ] about bullet weight in general for elk) or the 180-grain boat-tail.

FWIW, Art

[Mike Irwin]

I've never hunted anything as large as elk, but were I to, I'd probably go with Nosler Partitions...

[Johnny Guest]

I don't recall the 800- number but you can see it on their web site.

A few years back, Elder Son and I were working up some loads for elk hunting. I already had my .338 load down. Son was setting up to use a .300 WinMag, and I wanted to take along my old .30-06 for backup use by either of us.

Phoned Sierra on a couple of occasions and talked with some very knowledgeable-sounding guys who spent a lot of time on the line with us. They both said that the 165 GK would do just as good a job in the '06 as the 180, due to higher velocity, etc. Flatter trajectory would be a plus.

I was surprised to hear that both said their information, both from personal experience and by consensus with others, is to NOT use the 165 in the .300 mags for elk--It is going fast enough to expand too rapidly and not penetrate all the way. The 180 GK SBT and Pro Hunter flat base each do a better job in the mags.

Totally hearsay, for what its worth - - - ;)

Best,
Johnny

[Dr.Rob]

I had used the sierra 165 gr game king bullet for years (its the bullet loaded in federal "premium" ammunition) with great success, until I made a BAD shot on an elk. (took me a while to figure that out). Anyway I shot too high up on the body, and as a result I lost the animal after a day of tracking.


So I went to the store, got some Remington 180 gr Bronze points, figuring the extra "oomph" would make up for my bad shooting. Not so. A bronze point is essentially a hydra-shock in a rifle cartidge. When it hits, ther bronze point is shoved back into the jacket and it expands rapidly.. sometimes way TOO rapidly. On antelope I could guarantee an exit wound the size of a tennis ball, but the animal was usually dead right there. So with my new "magic bullets" I took a shot at loping 'lope, spun her completely around and dropped her dead. Guess what?

NO entry wound. (well nothing got into the body cavity). The bullet struck her shoulder as she turned into me, breaking 7 ribs in a lateral line and leaving an ugly cratering wound under the hide but the bullet failed to penetrate at all, even though it killed the doe instantly. That is what I consider a bullet failure.

Lessons learned:

Penetration and shot placement is what its all about. if I had used a 180 on the elk I failed to hit clean, it likely would have gotten away.

If I had used a 165 gameking over a 180 BP, that antelope would have a nice pencil sized hole through and through, and would likely have dropped like a stone anyway.

"Hollowpoint" expanding bullets and capped over wonderbullets like bronze points and silvertips are NOT the best hunting bullets on heavy game. A good soft point controlled expansion bullet that delivers long range energy is excatly what you want.

On paper, the 165 gives you better knock down power at 300 yards than a 180 grain bullet. At closer range the 180 has a slight edge in power. Whichever you use, pick a good bullet, like sierra, and watch your shot placement first and foremost.

I've seen only ONE jacket seperation from gameking bullets in 20 years of shooting them. Its a well made bullet.

[Spectre]

I am debating whether to have one of my .308's, or my .35 Whelen sent up to Lewis to use on elk. Thoughts?

[Chuck Dye]

On the bullet weight choice, I doubt the elk will know the difference. Your rifle, on the other hand, is very likely to. A few range sessions in testing are in order. Given acceptable bullet perfomance, I'd be inclined to use the more accurate of the two.

[Northwest Cajun]

Red,
I'm having good luck so far with 165 Speer Grand Slams in my 06 @ 2700fps. It will constintly shoot under 2" @ 200 yds. If you have some spare time I can show you at the TSC:-)

I debated for a long time weather to use 180's or 165's. I ended up using a 165 semi- premium bullet because they shot the best out of my rifle using the powder I have on hand( varget)I haven't shot an animal yet but will try agian this year. Allthe places I hunt in Western Wa 90% of the shots will almost never be more than 200yds (across a clear cut) Like Huck said I doubt the Elk will know the difference at that distance. You just have to hit him in the right spot.
I would not use a hollow piont but a controlled expansion soft point. Try some Hornady interlock's, the Speer Grand Slam or mag tip. I tried the 180 partition but I couldn't push them fast enough with the powder I use and the accurace wasn't there either. It's all trial and error.
Good luck
Cajun

[Art Eatman]

Hello again, Spectre. :)

If I was gonna choose between the two cartridges, I'd probably go with the Whelen. However, which one do you feel the most comfortable with as far as reliability of the package of you and the rifle?

Art

[Spectre]

I'm assuming a 165-grn delayed penetration bullet, such as FailSafe. FAL action >< Rem 700...no bad choice. I feel the FAL to be more versatile, while the 700 is more a big-game rifle.

[Art Eatman]

The FailSafe oughta do well on elk, from gossip and chit-chat; it doesn't seem to open up all that well on small southern whitetails...

Art

[HSMITH]

I would use the 180, and leave nothing to chance. I, like Art in his post above, have seen the light bullets lack of performance up close on elk. I have not seen that in the 180 and heavier bullets regardless of make. 180 is the minimum I would use in the 06.

[Long Path]

I got on the phone with the Sierra Tech Service (http://www.sierrabullets.com/techservice/index.cfm) (1.800.223.8799) to ask about the 165 v. 180 question, and the rep begged me to NOT use the 165 at velocities over 3000 fps on elk. However, he stated that the 165 Game King was really the best all around for .308 and '06 on big game, and that it would perform well on elk. He stated that he personally, for is own '06 loads, used the 180, but that he hunted in black timber, where the shots weren't over 150 yds, so he gave up nothing to speak of in trajectory.

Do you know the terrain and timber situation? Do you know how long your average shot would be?

I think that I'd be leaning 60/40 in favor of the 180g GameKing, but would have zero problem with the 165g GK. BTW, it's interesting to note that the 165g HP GameKing is considered to be just a tad bit "harder" than the 165g spitzerSP GameKing, with very little change in ballistic coefficient. The jacket in the 180, though, is even thicker at the base than the 165.

It's interesting to note that the GameKing is accurate enough to use as a standby match bullet, and once was even used to win the Wimbledon Cup (back in the '50s). If you can't tell, I'm a big believer of Sierra's products and service. :)

[cheygriz]

I would be hesitant to use anything other than Nosler partition (or equivalent) and Barnes "X" on elk in a .30-06.

180 Nosler or 150-165 Barnes. Either will give adequate penetration.

Bullets from Sierra, Hornady and Speer are extremely accurate, and reasonably priced, and they work well on a broadside shot.

However, if you need deep penetration on an angling shot, the Nosler and Barnes "X" bullets are worth their weight in gold.

The extra $20 or so that you spend on these premium bullets are nothing compared to the price of a good hunt. Personally, I'd hate to lose a big bull because I wasn't willing to spend $ 1.50 each for super-premium bullets.

[labgrade]

Here's (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85951&highlight=gameking) some related stuff from the hunt side of TFL

[Zorro]

Well Answer me this question.

Ever use too heavy a bullet on an Elk?

Go 200 Grain .30 Caliber! ;)

[labgrade]

Yup, Zorro, I have.

First elk I shot escaped, a nice 6X, mortally wounded & that with a factory-loaded Nosler 180 Partition at about 150-180 yards - .30-06

Till then, I'd used "just" a .243 on deer & they all died in their own shadow.

I said 'nuff of this nonsense & bought some Sierra 200 GameKings, loaded 'em up to HOT (accurate load, too) in a 760 pump - 20-22" bbl

Next elk I get to take (last day of the season & sunset coming on) I have a calf elk c'mon out at about 150 yards or so. Shoot the poor l'il thing & off she goes. 4 shots later & I get to do the post mortum - 4 shots in vital zones & none appeared to have any effect (other than she croaked rather quickly), but no "lightning bolt."

All bullets shot through (so no bullet recovery for an analysis), but no sign a real expansion - I dunno.

I think the 200 gr GameKing'd be a wonderful close-in (under 200 or so) bullet for adult sized elk in the '06 - prolly a tad on the big side for a 200 lb calf though. ;) ... but it does still work if properly placed.

BTW, the l'il critter was likely dead on its feet with the first shot, but having had an elk get away once was enough. First shot always will be the best I can do, the follow-up shots will be to anchor it & will shoot it till I can't or it falls down.

[Darryl Howland]

I've been hunting in Montana for a number of years with a group of friends. I use a 300 wby, one guy use a 300 winmag, and the last uses the good old 30-06. All of us use 180gr bullets, either Nolser Partion or Speer Grand Slams. Mule deers drop in their tracks. I've taken a very nice 5x6 eld at 400 yards with the 180gr Speers and got good penetration. The other guys have take more elk then me and all of them, including the 30-06, use 180gr bullets. As usual, it comes down to placement, placement, placement.

Good Luck ! !

[Andrew Wyatt]

"sheer bullet weight can make up for grevious sins in bullet construction"

I'd go with the 180s, purely because they'd penetrate better.

[Art Eatman]

Sure, Andrew. Consider a 500-grain soft lead bullet from a 45-70. Imagine shooting an elk through the mouth, down the alimentary canal, through the "innards" and out through the usual exit. That might be considered the fastest act of digestion this side of grass through a goose.

But it ain't much of a good bullet design...

Art

[Poodleshooter]

Call me silly, but I'd use my regular .308 load with 165gr Remington CoreLokts. They may not cost $.50 apiece, but I get a lot of target time in with them.