Carrying with empty chamber? Foolish.

[Spackler]

On another forum, in a thread about the possibility of putting a thumb safety on a Glock, a forum member advocated carrying the pistol with an empty chamber until needed, at which time he could draw and chamber a round.

I think this is foolish in the extreme. My position is, if you don't feel comfortable carrying a Glock (or whatever) with a chambered round, then switch to something you are comfortable carrying in that condition. If there isn't a pistol that you'd be comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, then maybe you should re-think whether you should be carrying at all. When I pointed out that he may have use the pistol while injured, one-handed, he called such a situation a "hollywood screen set situation", implying, I guess, that stuff like that doesn't happen in real life. Uh-huh. Probably doesn't practice weak-handed, either.

I'm curious about what others think, and if anybody here actually carries with an empty chamber. I think it's dumb. What do you think?

[Jim March]

If you're ever forced to carry an SA-only semiauto that you do NOT fundamentally trust, chamber empty makes sense - I'm talking about Bryco/Jennings/Lorcin/Davis grades of crapola.

Until you upgrade at the first possible opportunity, of course.

The Israelis preached a "rack and go" drill for use with CZ-75 pattern guns. They had a problem whereby they needed to teach LARGE numbers of civilians in a standard fashion, quickly. The "rack and go" drill ensured that all shots were fired SA - they were justifiably concerned about novices getting screwed up by the transition between DA first shot and SA subsequent. Yes, you can also carry a CZ-75 type cocked'n'locked but for the mass training the Israelis were dealing with, that was discarded in a hurry.

All "official use/issue" Israeli pistols are based on the CZ-75 operating drill, by official policy, including the Jericho and the new design we've recently seen pictures of. This is what influenced their thinking.

The Glocks eliminate all this stuff. Same trigger stroke for each shot, internal safeties are plenty good enough. I'm not a big fan of the Glock but I respect it's capabilities.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

Dumb, might be a little strong a word. I have seen the Israeli`s, secret police use this method...."empty chamber" in certain situations. Normally in a case where the weapon might be taken from the user, but not always the case. These guys are state of the art in firearms and use most every senario known to man or condition of threat. The thinking is, "if" you should be over powered, it might just allow you enough time.....if the weapon is lost, to evade being shot and/or valuable time to draw a back-up. Since the person who got the weapon may simply pull the trigger and without it firing, sudden confusion starts, giving much needed time to avoid being shot. Like any style of drawing AND shooting defensively, it too must be practiced.

It is much like the old west single action pistol, "fan" cocking.
When drawing the pistol from cover, the strong hand goes for the pistol and the weak hand is used to pull the cover back, as the pistol comes out of cover/holster, the weak hand grasp the top of the slide and as the upward motion of the strong hand is used to bring the pistol on target, the weak hand racks the slide on the upswing of the pistol, this motion is over and the pistol is in full battery upon reaching the line of sight to the target.....center mass. They showed no loss of time using this method, as opposed to just drawing and firing. But practice makes perfect in this or any type of self defense. In case of the wounded wing, they use the back of the knee for racking the slide to bring the pistol into battery, all motions are done in exagerated style, meaning; they are not dainty.

While the doing this (fan style), in the finished motion, the weak hand is next to the face, this allows the weak hand to be used to fend off the attacker if needed for a close shot, without allowing the pistol to be lost before firing "up close" This probably sounds kind of vague in describing it, but to see it in action.......very impressive. The Israeli`s have no problem with being up close and personal......not for the weak at heart. Just some rambling. Best LTS

[Spackler]

Let me clarify that I'm not talking about Isrealis, or some other group of professionals, but the average American carrying a legally concealed handgun. I have little doubt that the well-trained professional shooter could carry chamber-empty if desired, but for 99.9% of the general public, I think it's a very bad idea. The idea that the most people could draw, chamber a round, and fire accurately as fast as they could draw, click off a safety (or not, as the case may be) and fire accurately, is crazy.

[1goodshot]

I agree with your friend, thats the way I carry, thats the way I practice,thats the way I feel comfortable.

[LIKTOSHOOT]

You asked the question....

I would venture to say that 99% of those who carry are truly not effective in drawing anyway. If some take offense, then that may not apply to you. But after the course of fire, most simply carry. Practice goes by-by. LTS

[Greybeard]

Spackler -

BTW, I think this subject has been kicked around (again) pretty extensively here recently on TLF.

I understand where you may b coming from, but words like "dumb, foolish or crazy" can be inappropriate. Formal training regarding some of the "tradeoffs" (like speed v.s. safety) is my recommendation. Thereafter it becomes a matter of personal choice for "carry people".

It recently took me several months to get a lady student (fairly new to guns) to start carrying a round in the chamber of a semi-auto (that also had a manual safety!). I finally had to put it in terms that it was just as safe as carrying her revolver with all chambers loaded. Now, she is comfortable doing so. In the meantime, no, I was not comfortable with her doing what she does with the semi-auto in Condition 3. But, she knew the "tradeoffs" and it was her PERSONAL CHOICE. We both felt that her at least carrying the gun (mostly in car) that way would be better than not carrying at all.

I'm more comfortable with some folks who chose to carry in Condition 3 than, for example, an LEO in east Texas who, while in a major retail store, created a new crease in his buttocks partially because his gun was in Condition 1! In summation: (1) education, (2) personal choice, (3) practice!

[C.R.Sam]

However they carry, if they can present and fire with precision and some speed ..........

Beats the whey out of not carrying.

Sam

[rick_reno]

The only reason I'd carry a semi-auto firearm with an empty chamber is if I planned on using it like I would a brick - or a rock. Drawing a handgun from whatever/where ever you carry it should be a regular part of practice - just as shooting the handgun you carry is.

[Spackler]

Well hell, I think a lot of things are foolish. Riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Running your weed-wacker without eye protection. Shooting without hearing protection. Eating Texas hot-dogs without first taking a pepcid.....

But I digress. Maybe foolish is the wrong choice of words. How about "ill-advised"? In retrospect, I guess what I think is foolish is not the actual carrying without a chambered round, but thinking that drawing and chambering a round is "just as fast" as drawing with a round already in the chamber. Or that Glocks can't safely be carried with a chambered round. There are always exceptions, but for the vast majority of people, chambered round will always be faster then empty chamber. I could probably train myself to draw and chamber a round plenty fast, but why bother?

And yep, I will yeild to the point that a gun with an empty chamber is better then no gun at all.

[KEN CHAVEZ]

Even though my memory of what realy happen is now vague at best, but it realy happen.
Around ten years ago, I remember watching the news on TV about a man at a White-Sox game in Comiskey Park that had a Jennings .25auto with a round chambered and in his pocket. He was fumbling around in his pocket (probably looking for money), he must of accidentally hit the trigger with his finger and shot his wife in the leg. I remember real well the expression on his face as the Chicago Police were escorting him out of the ball park and off too jail. :eek:

If I was going to carry any gun in a pocket without a holster that can cover the entire trigger guard, I would not chamber a round.

[petej88]

I would never carry a subcompact Glock in my pocket, with a round in the chamber. The Glock design just isn't safe enough for that particular carry method. But I have no problem carrying a loaded Glock in any decent holster, ankle, iwb, belt, shoulder, etc.

However you carry, you must train on a regular basis with that method in mind so you know what to do automatically, because in an emergency, you won't have time to deliberate about it.

[Greybeard]

' Am with ya 100% Pete.

Maybe a review of the following 4 levels of physical/mental skills will help place more in perspective.

1. Unconscious incompetence.

2. Conscious incompetence.

3. Conscious competence.

4. Unconscious competence.

Agreed, most "carry people" (and LEOS for that matter) fall into category 3, with category 4 being the exception rather than the rule. :( Those of us "die hards" that often hang out to chit chat in the gun forums are obviously more likely to be closer to catgory 4 with semi-autos. :cool:

Having said that, I'll add that two of the (many) reasons that seasoned (civilian) instructors in this country still commonly recommend wheelguns is that (A) there are so many, many people who fall into categories 2 and 3 and (B) the question in the title of this thread becomes a non-issue. :) OK, sorry guys, I guess I'll go hang out in the Revolver section ... ;)

[tonyulichnie]

My first CCW handgun was the Hi-Point and I practiced most everyday drawing and racking to the fire point. I still now even carring my P89D draw and almost go too rack it throwing a round on the ground realizing that one was chambered.....just became insinct.
I say practice the way that makes you the most safest,effiecent, andwhats workable
Tony

[Marko Kloos]

Carrying a pistol with te chamber empty is like carrying an unloaded pistol. It's only one step up from carrying the magazine in a different pocket.

Carrying an unloaded pistol forces you to perform a two-handed, fine-motoric activity when your adrenaline is through the roof. It's just asking for trouble at the most inopportune moment.

[illuminatus99]

I did the drill today some with my browning BDA, it's tricky to say the least, the fastest way I could do it is by throwing it in my thigh holster and on the draw you bring it up like you normally would but a couple inches closer to your body with your hand on top of the gun and pushing upward against your hand with the pistol, you then wrap your weak hand around the slide a bit and push the gun forward with your weak hand basically keeping the slide in place. once you feel that the slide is back all the way just move your weak hand to your normal grip. after doing it 20-30 times I'm almost to the point where I can do it automatically, takes a lot of practice but it's not too bad. I still plan on carrying with a round in the chamber though.

[Herr Walther]

It comes down to how you've been trained. For those that haven't trained using this mode, they will be behind the curve if a situation came up that required an immediate response.

Practicing in front of the mirror is one thing but actually doing combat drills using condition three carry under stress is a whole 'nuther ballgame.

Hey if you've been trained properly, why not? I think though for the average CCW'er who may go to the range once a month if that, condition two for a DA/SA with safety OFF is the way to go.

Once the adrenalyn dump occurs, motor skills take a hike. The average person will be lucky if they can even draw the firearm and present it, if they can find their holster.

If the person is worried about an AD in condition two, they need to KEEP THEIR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER! Duh.

There are too many safety features built into modern pistols for an AD to occur. No, nothing is failure proof but the odds are extremely low with a modern, quality built firearm that has not been abused.

My .02 worth

[M1911]

You can guess how I prefer to carry ;)

I wouldn't call carrying condition 3 to be foolish. what I do say is that you have to fully consider the pros and cons. The pro is that it's awfully hard to have an ND if the chamber is empty. There are a couple disadvantages, however. First, it is a bit slower to get into action carrying condition 3 than either condition 2 or condition 1. The bigger concern for me is that while you can rack the slide relatively quickly, you can only do that if you have both hands free. And your support hand might be busy -- fending off the perp, pushing your spouse to cover, scooping up a child, opening a door, etc. There are ways to rack the slide one-handed, but they aren't fast.

Each person has to consider the pros and cons given their situation. Condition 3 doesn't work for me.

M1911

[Blackhawk]

Whatever floats their boat, but that doesn't work for me.

DAO semis with chambered round. That works for me.

I can do the whole manual of arms with my strong hand, but it isn't easy or fast. Doubt if I could do it at all with just my weak hand.

However, I shoot pretty well with my weak hand, and I see no reason to become unarmed should my strong hand become unavailable.

If a BG gets my pistol, it's because I'm a goner anyway, so having a round chambered as it would always be anyway isn't a big deal one way or the other because if he's intent on whacking me, getting shot or beat to death has the same result.

Edit: I clarified the last sentence.

[defox]

Spackler,

You ask an interesting question. Truth is most if not all gun makers advise against carrying one in the chamber, even while they point out how safe the gun is with a chambered round. Some say this warning is a litigation defence strategy.

IMHO, for CC it is not practical to carry without one in the chamber because you never know what situation might face you. It is the same reason why I do not support ported guns as CC. For e.g. If you are driving your car and encounter a ambush where you come under gunfire will you be able to rack the slide when your focus is to steer the car out of danger and possibly return the fire. A well-trained and experienced professional could but that is not the norm.

For me, I advocate self-defense and gun retention training and ask that the CC holder attain/maintain some form of physical conditioning. I would not want to gamble on someone having my gun whilst I am scared stiff hoping that they do not know how to use it.

[yorec]

This has become one of my favorits sayings -

If it doesn't go "bang!" when I pull the trigger... what good is it?

[johnwill]

Jennings .25auto with a round chambered and in his pocket.
This comes under the heading of stupid and foolish. First, he was carrying a Jennings, and second, he had ammo in it! :D

[Eric Larsen]

Carrying without a round chambered is something that I wont do and doesnt make sense to me. WHY?
Shoot well

[Futo Inu]

My understanding is that the Israelis are quite adept at drawing and racking in one smooth quick motion, and with training, this doesn't not delay the first shot more than about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second. But I agree that every little bit helps, and thus carry chamber-loaded, Glock or otherwise. However, that's with a good holster that covers the trigger guard. Mexican style is another matter. I wouldn't carry Mexican style, but if I had to, in a pinch for some reason, I would definitely carry empty chamber on a GLOCK - chamber-loaded other pistols (mexican carry of glock chambered=foolish).

99 times out of 100, the 1/2 second won't cost you your life. However, I wouldn't want to risk that 1%. Problem is, that this presumes regular training. Chambering a round for folks who don't train might take you upwards of 2-3 seconds, and that's definitely bad mojo in a gunfight. I would also venture to guess that the same people who are scared of carrying chambered loaded are by and large the same peeps who don't train, thus compounding the problem - so in essence I agree.

[VVG]

I think it's dumb.
As I understand your argument, you think someone should practice enough to be able to shoot weak hand, but not enough to be able to rack the slide out of the holster?

Do you carry incapacitating spray? A cell phone? I think anyone who carries a cocealed weapon without these items is dumb and guaranteed to get sued if they ever use it.

But as a typical macho postering hypothetical gun-board thread, hey, knock yourself out!

[Blackhawk]

Do you carry incapacitating spray? A cell phone? I think anyone who carries a cocealed weapon without these items is dumb and guaranteed to get sued if they ever use it. But, hey, you're in Boston! :)

Seriously, do you think there's a choice between using pepper spray or Raid Hornet Spray versus shooting a BG? If you draw your CCW, the confrontation may end instantly without firing or loading an empty chamber.

If you choose spray, you may be greeted with a laugh and "I'm upwind sucker!" The main problem with spray is that you've committed to that choice.

Or are you saying that you should first draw your CCW to use to hold the BG(s) at bay while you get your spray to irritate and incapacitate them once you get close enough or while you call the cops?

I agree that you should always have a cell phone, but service isn't available everywhere, and I often find myself in places where I don't have a clue as to how to direct help to the location.

Lastly, I expect to get sued if I use a CCW no matter what else I have available. I don't plan to lose, but I do plan to get sued.... :D

[Blackhawk]

Futo Inu,My understanding is that the Israelis are quite adept at drawing and racking in one smooth quick motion, and with training, this doesn't not delay the first shot more than about 1/4 to 1/2 of a second. They don't have to worry about the element of surprise either. Nobody should be surpirsed if a soldier in full battle dress shoots them, so the soldiers never can expect to "surprise" anybody.

Now the CCW citizen does have the opportunity to exploit surprise as a tactical advantage, provided that the gun is in condition 1. The first sound I want the BG to hear about my CCW is "bang". I don't want him hearing clicking, clunking, and cussing for 1/2 second or even less.

By employing surprise, I also have the advantage of changing my mind should I see the situation was misperceived. It's just as easy to silently slip an unseen gun back into its hiding place as it is to get it out, and I want every opportunity NOT to shoot. Chambering a round unavoidably escalates the situation, and that might not be desirable.

[Spackler]

VVG -

Yes, I think you should practice weak-hand shooting. If you carry with an empty chamber, I sure think you should practice chambering a round after drawing. Be a fool not to. I just don't agree with carrying chamber-empty, or claiming that it's "just as fast" as chamber-loaded. Sure, the Israelis may do it. They are a well-trained bunch of professional shooters. My argument is, if you are not comfortable carrying a Glock with a loaded chamber, maybe move to something you feel comfortable with.

Macho posturing? Don't know how you came to that conclusion. I gave an opinion and asked for yours.

[Blombo]

<<When I pointed out that he may have use the pistol while injured, one-handed, he called such a situation a "hollywood screen set situation", implying, I guess, that stuff like that doesn't happen in real life. Uh-huh. Probably doesn't practice weak-handed, either.>>

An incredibly small percentage (1% i believe) of police officers actually discharge their weapons in the line of duty througout their whole career. I would think the chances of the general public doing so would be even less.

It would therefore stand to reason that most people should practice the percentage shots. Especially when "most people" don't practice that much anyway.

I agree that it makes the most sense to have your weapon chambered, however many feel that the risk of AD or ND is greater than encountering a villian & having to quick draw. To each their own.

I think the same applies to one handed racks & weak handed shooting. It's great to know how to do it but the likelyhood of being winged in a gunfight and having to do so is pretty darn remote although i have seen it happen in a lot of movies. :)

I think most would be better served to keep it simple and work on a minimum things until they become a reflex before worrying about what if scenarios. I see very few people actually practicing the basic drawing and shooting & most shoot at distances well beyond a real self-defense situation.

It reminds me of martial artists who talk about self-defense and but spend years practicing their jumping and turning kicks thinking that they are good self-defense techniques. Again, nothing wrong with it but probably not the smartest steet moves to be doing in real life.

I hope none of us ever have to find out first hand what is real and what is not.

[notbubba]

Spackler,

You're right and he's wrong.:cool:

[Blackhawk]

Blombo,

Good points.

The odds of a BG holding up a store getting the drop on a uniformed LEO are what, REAL close to zero...? That's because a BG is very likely to be dissuaded from robbing that particular store at that particular time. The uniform is a good deterrent.

However, if it's just Joe Citizen in the store along with the help, the BG has probably planned for that. A supermarket close by was robbed just like that. The BG herded everybody into the freezer and shot the manager to emphasize his order for them to stay put.

The point it, that if a citizen does draw the unlikely card in the "percentage game," he's far more likely to need his CCW while under gunpoint or observation. Likewise with ATM visits, muggings, etc. Those encounters happening to police, for all practical purposes, just don't happen, but it's the norm for poor old Joe Citizen.

In that case as Joe Citizen, I want stealth, silence, and Condition 1....

[Rickmeister]

Do I carry with a round in the chamber? Why, yes!

Let's put it this way. If I find myself in a situation where I need to draw quickly and fire in self defense, I know that at least I'll get one round off. Not the case if I rack with an empty chamber and my gun fails to feed.

Dead meat.

[Correia]

To be effective at drawing and racking, you are going under the assumption that you will have access to both hands. Sometimes we don't even have access to both hands while we are actually shooting!

What happens when somebody attacks you out of nowhere with a knife? (I know we are all in condition yellow all the time, but hey stuff happens).

What happens if you get blind sided? Sucker punched?

What happens to the woman when the rapist steps out of the shadows and grabs her? Will she have access to both hands?

What happens if you are holding an infant in your arms?

What happens when you are on unstable footing, and you are using your other hand to hold on to a support?

How does this work when you are driving?

Sure carrying chamber empty is better than nothing. But I don't see the logic behind it. If you are trained to the point that you can draw, rack and shoot in less than a second and a half, then you are trained to the point that you can carry safely, draw and shoot in well under a second.

The only logic I see behind chamber empty is when you first start to CCW, and you are still very nervous about it. Carry chamber empty for a couple of weeks until you feel better about it.

[Blackhawk]

If you are trained to the point that you can draw, rack and shoot in less than a second and a half, then you are trained to the point that you can carry safely, draw and shoot in well under a second.

The only logic I see behind chamber empty is when you first start to CCW, and you are still very nervous about it. Carry chamber empty for a couple of weeks until you feel better about it. Very well said, Correia, and it bears repeating... LOUDER!

[Pampers]

One of the more common needs for a gun QUICK is during carjackings or during an assault by a road rage idiot. As I recall, the first use of a gun by an armed citizen in Texas, under their new CCW laws, was just such a case. Road Rage moron grabbed the driver's left arm and attempted to drag him out of the vehicle window even as he punched the victim repeatedly in the head and face. The victim was able to draw his concealed gun and shoot the SOB. COULD HE HAVE DONE IT IF HE HAD HAD AN EMPTY CHAMBER?

The Military demands empty chamber because it must make rules to suit the dumbest grunt in the corps! Besides, in combat, you KNOW that you're going into harm's way. A citizen, minding his own business NEVER knows when he's going to come under attack.

If you want to carry Cond 3, fine with me, but it looks like attempting suicide!

On the other hand, if you're so affraid of your weapon that you must carry it "empty," maybe you have NO BUSINESS carrying a gun in the first place.

[mjby]

:)

While I always carry a double-action pistol with a round chambered, I generally carry my Browning condition three. Most of the pros and cons have been mentioned, but I would like to add that no less an authority than Fairbairn, whom I consider the father of modern pisolcraft, recommends using condition three only. True, his officers carried their Colts in a flapped weak side holster - facilitating the use of the weak hand in assisting the racking motion after undoing the flap (and advancing into a one handed point stance).
OTOH, lets not forget that he was dealing with oriental martial artists and the armed organized criminals of the 20's and 30's.

[the duck of death]

I've carried for 46 years. I don't consider myself a novice. The only guns I'll carry in cond 1 start DA. I'm presently carring a Glock 23 because its small and light. I carry it in cond 3, and before you started going on this, I don't consider the Glock double action. If your comfortable carring in cond 1 by all means do so but don't think someone is a fool because they don't. Perhaps they have thought it out and perfer to carry in cond 3. You must remember what opinions are like, oops, that's right I can change my opinion.

[Blackhawk]

I did some timed tests at the range yesterday with my DAO P-11. The timer was a competition electronic timer that emits a beep when it starts and stops when it "hears" the report when the gun fires and is accurate to 0.01 seconds.

Draw and aimed first shot using 2 handed grip from Condition 1 was 1.00 seconds.

Draw, rack, and aimed first shot using 2 handed grip from Condition 2 was 1.20 seconds.

"Cost" of Condition 2:

0.20 seconds knowing in advance the needed steps.
1 less round capacity
risk of not going into battery on racking so there would be no "first shot"
risk of forgetting the gun's in Condition 2

At 3:00 AM, the risk of forgetting the needed steps to fire and the gun's condition could be pretty high and so could an "ineffective" racking because of just plain fuzzy mindedness upon awakening to a problem.

I agree that Condition 2 is safer both for carrying and nightstand availability. Problem is that it's safer for a BG, and not for me...!
:D

[Correia]

Blackhawk, good test...






Now try it one handed! :D :p

[Blackhawk]

Correia,Now try it one handed! Funny you should mention that! My buddy said the same thing. I said I could rack it one handed but it was really slow and awkward. He said "let me show you how" after which he smartly slammed the slide of the empty pistol against the outside of his right thigh, shoved it toward the ground -- and failed to rack the slide, in fact it only opened about 1/2". He tried it again and again. Failed each time. Then he got a bright idea and hooked the rear sight on his belt and only managed to partially rack it. The slide's return wasn't fast enough to go into battery. I said "Fine, but I don't sleep with a belt and jeans on." We both paid homage to the wisdom of Condition 1.... :D

Actually, having only one working hand is not that unlikely a situation in the middle of the night! For about 30 years, I used to manage to cut off the circulation to one or the other of my arms by sleeping on it. It would complain and wake me up, and it wouldn't work for a while! I had to retrain myself to not sleep that way, but every once in a while....

[KP95DAO]

Twenty eight years ago I knew a guy who was one of our MPs that guarded our X-Area. He could draw and chamber a round from the holster so fast that it looked just like a regular draw.

On the draw he would bring the 1911 up just far enough to engage the rear of the ejection port on the front of the holster and then push the pistol back in to rack the slide. It was amazing. Of course he practiced this with dummy rounds a lot. It was not an authorized activity; but, he decided his life was worth more than some silly rule. Oh yeah, they were not allowed to carry with one in the chamber.

[loandr.]

AS said on TFL get a GLOCK SAFTEY-BLOCK and be done with it,
adjust the tension tight and feel safe yet ...ready. thank you
loandr. Yes the tension Mech. will wear after awhile and they may feel loose in a shorter period of time....Get a dozen at $10 a pop approx. they are the ticket. AND no mechanical devise is fool proof ,poeple prevent.. and make for accidents BUT this item brings a serious moderate level of comfort for me. Some say hey glock is no more unsafe that revolver D/A ,wouldnt you carry you L/W S&W with a tirgger block if you could??? same priniciple.?
thanks for lending an ear. I know I would.
loandr.

[CAP1]

I had American Handgunner Gunsmith editor Alex Hamilton install the manual safety on my G26. LOVE it! Great service from Ten-Ring Precision too. I saw his add and an accompanying article on the guy (Cominiski if I remember right) who came up with the strong patent and parts in on of the AH mags recently. I perfer a manual safety and this was the perfect modification to my individual needs. Also have a Saf-T-Block too, but feel that a bit overkill with the mechanical manual safety.
CAP

[the duck of death]

Where do you get the Saf-T-Blok for $10? Cheapest I've seen is $13.95 from Top Glock.

[MO JENKINS]

There is some wisdom to COND 3 carry. Most modern full-size auto's become almost identical to operate once it has been determined what position is "safety off". All become SA only trigger, and issues about maniplating a safety become irrelevant. Except for heel-release mags, almost all "combat auto's" become identical to operate. 1911, HP, CZ, Beretta 92, Ruger, etc, etc.... There are some SERIOUS drawbacks to this "compromise", but there are also some real advantages. If I grab your CZ, my Ruger, his 1911, even the other guy's WW2 P-38, all identical to operate (until mag change in the P-38, heel catch-slide release is different on this one, but then I've at least emptied one mag into the threat). Carrying in COND 3, a person can grab many different pistols and their training will be 100% applicable.
Something to think about, anyway...

[isaidme]

I am the person whom started that.I wont do it with my 1911 but I did with my glock.

1st: one person said it,If someone is able to get to it before me for whatever the reason I have alittle more time to fight.

2nd: one rule no matter where the gun is "none chambered" Some people keep one in the pipe and thats great but It doesnt need to be that way at home with a family!So no mastake,one way all the time.

3rd: A person can develope a smooth motion with practice especialy with the gun mounted to ones chest.Pull it out with the right hand and hold the release down with your right thumb,rack it with the left,release "keeping the gun close to the body",point and click.

I cant understand how something that works for one person but not another makes one stupid and or foolish?I dont understand how something is fine and ok when the word professional is stuck in the sentence,but it isnt when its an american civilian?The truth is that it is second nature and isnt something you forget in a adrinalin pumping situation were is you could be so pumped up that you make a mistake you cant take back.Just alittle to chew on fellows!!!

[Quartus]

It would therefore stand to reason that most people should practice the percentage shots.

It would stand to reason that a person should make the conscious decision to be poorly prepared????

:confused:


:eek:


Suit yourself.

[Spackler]

I cant understand how something that works for one person but not another makes one stupid and or foolish?

For you, it works. That's your opinion and obviously you have to do what works for you.

For me, I think it's foolish. It's a handicap. That's my opinion and of course not everybody will agree.

I dont understand how something is fine and ok when the word professional is stuck in the sentence,but it isnt when its an american civilian?

People are always quick to say "well, the Israelis do it". Good for them. They are professional shooters. That's their job. They train hard. There are a lot of things that pros do that amateurs would be smart to avoid.

[HydraShok]

I also carry condition 1. Condition 3 just would not work for me. Most of the time my 2 yr old is with me and I'm either carrying him or holding his hand. You do not want to drop your child or let go of him. What if you are holding his hand and you need your gun? You have to let go of him (or drop him if carrying). What if you are in a parking lot? He could get killed by a car trying to leave the area in the ensuing chaos. So for me, it only makes sense to have it ready to go with only one hand. Even when my child isn't with me, I tend to have stuff in my left hand. Of course I can and will drop anything in the left hand, except my son.

[WESHOOT2]

A gun without a cartridge chambered is unloaded.

Anyone here advising carrying an unloaded gun?

[Ryder]

I've never done it. First shot is the one I'm depending on the most.

Ever heard of FTF? If that happens to me I want it to be in the privacy and security of my own home, not after a life and death situation has already presented itself to me in public. :eek:

Gambling that you will have a successful feed must really raise the adrenaline levels! But hey, if any of you are that big a gambling addicts or adrenaline junkies, go for it.

It's a free country and you can quote me on that. :)

[the duck of death]

I have found, over the years, that people who make absolute statements, insinuating that they are fact, are not necessarily wise people.

[Ryder]

You're right, I have carried unloaded guns. On the way home from the dealer (if that's what you are implying). But that is not the kind of "carry" which I was speaking of.

I "generally" shy away from absolutes myself as a wise tactic.
But I'll stand by my NEVER in this case.

[MO JENKINS]

I Would advise that someone carry an unloaded gun IF THAT IS WHAT SUITED THEIR NEEDS AND WAS THE SOLUTION TO THEIR PARTICULAR PROBLEMS. Doesn't work for me, but then unlike some other people, I don't profess to be all knowing and understand the solutions to everyone else's problems! My shotgun in my trunk is UNLOADED, and it suits my needs as far as that particular gun is concerned.... I would state STRONGLY that my unloaded shotgun is far from a useless hunk of metal that couldn't possibly benefit me and should be left at home.... I've only had to draw a gun twice to protect myself and successfully diffuse a VERY bad situation. Once it was a handgun, carried COND 1. The other time it was my shotgun, which I loaded immediately before the the "incedent". Works for me, I'm sure there are alot of people out there who are quite well armed with an handgun or shotgun or a pocket full of rocks in COND 3........

[isaidme]

Well guys we can all agree on this:Not everyone can agree on everything all the time! ;) Just out of interest,How many people here would have to pump their shotguns before firing?How many people leave a round in their shotguns all the time?What would the difference be between pumping a shotgun and racking a Glock?No hard feelings here fellows by the way! :)

[Spackler]

I used to have a nice Winchester Defender. Traded it in a moment of stupidity (they are quite frequent). Now, I never carried it - it was a home defense weapon. I did not keep a round in the chamber. I kept it loaded and ready to rack one in one-handed (I always liked that little trick - a la the movie "Manhunter"). Thinking back on it, I cannot tell you why I didn't keep a round in the chamber and safety-on. I just didn't, don't know why.

I think I'd like to get another Defender....

[Rebeldon]

It really is a matter of personal comfort. However, if you feel you can't carry a Glock with the chamber loaded, there are plenty of other manufactures that make plenty of good guns that have safeties to consider carrying for CCW.

I wouldn't feel as safe carrying my Glock 30 in my pocket or stuffed under my belt as I would with a pistol that had a safety. That's why I use a holster. The holster covers the trigger. I make a point to exaggerate keeping my finger away from the trigger until I am ready to shoot my Glock. This habbit has carried over to other pistols.

[WESHOOT2]

So is anyone here recommending the carry of an unloaded gun?

"Gun" vs "paperweight".

[MO JENKINS]

1) Awareness of one's enviroment AND 2) Being ready and able to use deadly force..... A warriors most important attributes.... A man who posseses these and can sustain massive physical trauma while becoming tougher, faster and more decisive as he engages a threat WILL more than likely TERMINATE that threat. The ability to move through an enviroment, much like an athlete, and use everything possible to his advantage will probably be the decisive factor. I had a boss some years ago(dead now) who was the Warlord for a very hardcore(old school) Motorcycle Club. He did carry cocked n'locked BUT if this man had a his 1911 still holstered (empty chamber=paperweight) he could probably kill 9 out of 10 people that had him in their sights. And that is NO B.S., NO WAY!

[M1911]

What would the difference be between pumping a shotgun and racking a Glock?

Actually, there's a big difference. If I'm using a long gun, I'm in my own home, behind a locked door. So I probably have some time and space from the bad guy. I'm hunkered down in a defensive position.

If I'm carrying around town, it's quite possible that the bad guy will try to seem as innocuous as possible until he gets very close. It's unlikely that a bad guy is going to try to rob me when he's 25 yards away. So on the street, I'm more likely to be surprised at close quarters and thus be in grappling range.

If you want to carry condition 3, by all means, carry condition 3. Just realize that along with the safety advantage comes the significant disadvantage that if you don't have 2 hands to rack the slide (because you're fending off the perp, opening a door, holding a child, pushing your spouse to cover), then you basically have an impact weapon in your hand. Only you can decide whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Condition 1 works for me; condition 3 does not. I can not (and will not) try to tell you what works for you -- that's your decision.

M1911

[the duck of death]

I am well aware of the advantages and the disadvantages of both methods and still say the only handguns I'll carry in cond 1 start in the DA mode. Since I'm now carring a Glock 23 I carry it in cond 3. It is a personal choice I have made and I plan to stick with it. When I was carring my S&W 4536 Or my Sig Pro 2340 they were carried in cond 1. The G23 is a different matter altogether.