Now I know why the Anzacs couldn't take Galipolli

[Cosmoline]

http://www.mosin-nagant.net/Kc4.jpg

"A Beutegewehr-armed Turkish soldier in the snows of Galicia, 1916"

That's probably the largest soldier I've ever seen! Interesting that he doesn't have Turkish Mauser, but a captured Mosin-Nagant. If that's a full-length three-line rifle he's holding, he must have been astonishingly large.

Maybe they just put him there to hold some strategic point. Or maybe he *was* the strategic point!

[Art Eatman]

Not the weapons; not the size of the Turks.

The Anzacs were ordered to charge across open ground into fixed-position machine guns, among other problems. No artillery support, etc., etc.

Some of the dumbest officers known to mankind...

Art

[C.R.Sam]

Some of the dumbest officers known to mankind... Criminal disregard for tactics, common sense etc.

Sam

[Mike Irwin]

Winston Churchill takes a LOT of grief for what happened in the Dardanelles.

Almost ALL of it is complete and utter Bull****.

Churchill's plans were sound, the ground commander was quite incompetent, failing to take undefended high ground. Once he got around to trying to take it, the Turks had dug in and had EXCELLENT emplacements.

Another problem facing Churchill was both the War Cabinet and especially Jackie Fisher, whom Churchill had lured out of retirement (BIG BIG mistake). Fisher's opinion changed so often he looked like a weather cock in a swirling storm.

When things went to poop, Churchill was forced to resign and the remaining members of the War Council started covering their asses faster than the new guy in cellblock D.

Had the War Council and the ground commanders had some testicular fortitude, Turkey would have been split and isolated, and likely knocked out of the war, which in turn would have allowed Russia to concentrate fully on the German front. The war could have been very, very different.

[gburner]

As for the photo....a scene comes to mind from "Princess Bride",
'Leave me alone, or I'll call the Brute Squad!'

'I AM the Brute Squad'.

[4V50 Gary]

Speaking of Churchill, didn't he also advocate the landing at Anzio? History repeated itself when a timid Allied Commander failed to press his advantage and drive inland. The enemy came, fortfied the high ground and pummeled the beach with artillery.

[glock glockler]

Anyone know how big that fella is?

[gburner]

The guy has got to be pushing 7 feet and 400 pounds. Looks like he skinned a Yeti for his cloak.
Perhaps he's the love child of Orson Welles and Janet Reno.

[Cosmoline]

The three line rifle (Mosin Nagant Model 1891) was a big, long rifle, OAL of *51* inches. With a pig sticker bayonet it would come over a man's head. That puts him at seven feet (at least) and as big as all outdoors.

All I know is if I saw him on the battlefield and all I had was an SMLE No.1Mk3, I'd go back and demand to be issued a nitro express elephant gun!

From the perspective of his fellow Turkish soldiers it was probably a mixed blessing. On the down side he must have eaten most of their food. On the up side, when he got shot they could pretty much all get behind his body for cover.

Art is right about the officers. They should have made them fight this guy hand-to-hand as punishment.

[Blue Star]

"Danny, ever been in a Turkish prison?" Yikes!

That is right on Gallipoli - from what I've always understood the plan was sound but it was bungled in the execution, which we know can always happen.

Churchill said of Anzio "I thought we were hurling a wildcat onto the shore but all we got was a stranded whale." MG Lucas, the US corps commander, was later relieved most place the blame on Army commander Mark Clark actually. Lucas was faulted for not pushing immediately to the Alban hills south (or was it southeast?) of Rome to cut off the German forces in the south, sever their lines of communications, and secure that "key terrain."

In his defense, his forces were inadequate he thought it more critical to consolidate on the beachhead until he had sufficient strength. Who knows? Maybe a more aggressive commander would have made a differance there and maybe not.

[Correia]

I just got my rifle out of closet to compare. I'm guessing that he is about 6'5"-6'6". Sorry guys. When you hold a Nagant like that he really isn't that enormous. :)

Weight is hard to tell because of the clothing.

[Cosmoline]

I was particularly amazed at this photo because most men at that time were on average much smaller than we are today. Your average NBA lineup would all be considered circus freaks* 100 years ago. With most men back then well under 6' tall, this guy must really have stood out.

*OK, so maybe a lot of them really *are* circus freaks.

[Art Eatman]

I commonly have trouble remembering "when", when "when" was 30 or so years back. Anyhow, there was one heckuva great movie made about the whole Gallipolli deal. Aussie or Limey, IIRC.

:), Art

[Zorro]

All I know is if I saw him on the battlefield and all I had was an SMLE No.1Mk3, I'd go back and demand to be issued

Uhhh NO!

Just gather your wits and line up a head shot.

Harder to kill maybe but NOT impossible.

All big guys can, if by no other means, be dropped by calling in 10, 20, 30 other soldiers to help! :D

Or in the modern version a GPS Guided bomb! :cool:

[madkiwi]

Art,

The Gallipoli movie was done by Peter Weir, the same guy that did Picnic at Hanging Rock, The Year of Living Dangerously, Dead Poets Society and The Truman Show.

That movie was when he was still an Australian film-maker based in Australia, as opposed to now when he is a Hollywood bigshot.

ANZAC Day is April 25th. I will be flying my New Zealand flag in honor of it.

See www.anzacday.org.au

Madkiwi

[JoshM75]

Tactically the Dardanelles operation may have been excellent idea. Australians and New Zealanders though were taught a bloody lesson in blindy following mother England.

In some ways Gallipoli was New Zealand's Concord and we payed the highest price [per capita] in fatalities of allied nations to learn it.

On ANZAC day, I'll visit my Grandad [WW2 vet] with a mixture of pride, for him and sadness, for the older brother [Maj Bill Mitchell MC posthumous] he lost.

"They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old. At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them"

[Art Eatman]

A requirement for General Officers should be a thorough knowledge of military history. Study of the results of past strategies and tactics would help avoid such events as the Gallipolli fiasco.

Shwartzkopf's ploy in the Gulf War was straight from the pages of MacArthur's landing at Inchon, which was merely a variant on Sherman's march to the sea following his passage through Atlanta.

"Hit'em where they ain't." works in war as well as baseball--and chess, which is in its own way a form of war.

Apologies for my ignorance as to "ANZAC Day". Thanks.

Art

[gburner]

I thought Schwartzkopf's drive into Iraq was taken from RE Lee's battle plan at Chancellorsville in May of 1863. Make a diversionary feint at the main force at the center and right, while sending highly mobile forces in a screened movement around the left flank to attack from the rear. It violates Napoleon's maxim about dividing your forces in the face of the enemy. It also produces a damn fine ass whipping if you can pull it off.

[WilderBill]

That guy would sure be an easy target. Minute of soldier would be about 3 times as big for him.
I wouldn't want to go hand to hand against him though! :eek: :eek:

So far as tactics, the same thing happened in France. Just seems like it wouldn't take all that long to learn that a massed charge against dug in machine guns equals mass suicide.
Then again it wasn't the generals doing the charging.:rolleyes:

Ever wonder how many wars we would have if they were settled by having the respective heads of state dual?

[stellarpod]

Art wrote: "The Anzacs were ordered to charge across open ground into fixed-position machine guns, among other problems. No artillery support, etc., etc. "

Doesn't sound much different from what Pickett was commanded to do at Gettysburg does it?

[Mike Irwin]

Winfield Scott Hancock (I THINK he was the commander of the position that Pickett's troops were assaulting), didn't have machine guns...

They had the next best thing...

Cannister shot in Napoleon smoothbore cannon. Essentially a large shotgun firing iron buckshot about 1 1/4 inches in diameter...

That's gotta smart...

[Art Eatman]

"Generals are always prepared to fight the last war."

I was in Basic Training at Ft. Bliss in early '54 when the movie "Take The High Ground" came out.

Hey! Those guys' idea was I should run up a mountainside? In broad daylight? With people shooting at me?

Can't I just sneak up at night with a knife?

(And then we had a night exercise and I discovered why you don't really want to associate with green troops at night. They get lost, a lot. They make more noise than a herd of cattle. Quelle bummer.)

Formal, "real" warfare sucks.

Art

[Dr.Rob]

The bigger they are.. the harder they fall.. and that guy was big enough to pin two others under his perforated hide.

bTW "Gallipoli" was one of Mel Gibson's first movies.

[Coronach]

It violates Napoleon's maxim about dividing your forces in the face of the enemy.Kinda/sorta. I'm not so sure Napoleon would not do the same if in command of a massively superior, highly-mobile and well-controlled (modern day communications) force. Why go through the front door when you can just kick in the rear? Besides, Napoleon was the master of not charging straight up a prepared (by the defense) avenue of assault. Turn turn turn. It also produces a damn fine ass whipping if you can pull it off. That it does :D

Mike

[Mike Kilo Niner]

As for the photo....a scene comes to mind from "Princess Bride"

That was exactly my first thought on seeing that photo!

Miracle Max: Leave me alone, or I'll call the Brute Squad!
Fezzik: I'm on the Brute Squad!
Miracle Max: You are the Brute Squad.

:D

[4V50 Gary]

Napoleon was actually a master of fighting the central position. He would leave one smaller force to delay one army and march off with the larger army to destroy the other. He'd then turn back and deal with the army he left behind.

Lee did this at Chancellorsville and left Barksdale behind to watch Mayre's Heights at Fredericksburg while he marched with his army to face Fighting Joe Hooker at Chancellorsville. After Hooker was defeated, Lee turned about and chased the Feds out of Fredericksburg.

[gburner]

You are correct, sir! But it was Jackson's screened movement around the Union right at Chancellorsville and his subsequent attack in the Union rear at dawn that made this such a gem of of a tactical battle.