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Old January 31, 2002, 02:29 AM   #1
rock_jock
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What justifies the special black powder seasons these days?

Frankly, I can't see any reason to have a special season for blackpowder rifles. With the optics, power, and accuracy of modern in-lines, they are much more like the modern centerfire than the frontier rifle of yesteryear. I say if states are going to have blackpowder seasons, they should limit them to flintlocks.

Anyone want to chime in on this?
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Old January 31, 2002, 09:40 AM   #2
CD1
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I don't have the answer. But if we're going to limit it to flintlocks, why not limit it to bow only. And if we're going to limit it to bow only, why allow compound bow? Make it recurves only. Where is the end?

This seems to be an "in-line/modern BP gun" vs "flintlock" discussion more that questioning the reason for special black powder seasons. To that I say shoot what you like, and have fun doing it.
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Old January 31, 2002, 10:53 AM   #3
Jamie Young
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I think its because People tend to think its a safer Hunting season. Just like Bow season.
I think the Game Commission would probable get a lot of flak from Anti's if they extended Rifle Season so they kiss @$$ and extend the Nice Seasons

Here in PA we are having a probable controlling the Deer Herds and BOW HUNTING is the only answer. They seriously need to change the rules on Doe Tags. Thats really the Answer for cutting Deer heards. I've passed up maybe 8 Doe in My life just because I didn't send in for the Doe Tags early enough.
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Old January 31, 2002, 11:19 AM   #4
JosephBoeckner
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i feel the same

when u have a scoped inline that has the same range as a flintlock or percussion..... its not the same.. i have nothing against those people except maybe thier too lazy-i shoot percussion and for competition here in our 4-H shooting sports.. i will be making leather crafts and the such (shooting bag.. hat etc etc) and part of that is fur.. so i was thinking about going coyote hunting with a BP rifle and that would be alot more "authentic". I think they could split up seasons but it wouldnt be fair to all... so i think they should stick modern inlines in the regular firearms season and keep the flint/cap/percussion in the black powder season....

now on the issue of recurves/compounds.... recurves are a whole lot harder and challenging (especially with barebow) than a compound is for a number of reasons

1.its not as short
2.no let off
3.doesnt have MA

theres nothign wrong with compound shooters but I think its ok to shoot compound with the recurves in hunting because if u cut out the compounds.... there would be very little bow hunters except for the few trad. shooters

P.S. i would love to take a deer with a recurve and hope to
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Old January 31, 2002, 12:48 PM   #5
Art Eatman
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Two factors contribute: First off, there aren't all that many BP hunters--or bowhunters, for that mattter.

Second, it's a way for game departments to get a few more deer off the range--most areas around the country are over-stocked--without getting a big hue and cry from the genus ignorantus were the limits increased during the regular season.

Worrying over this sort of thing is about as productive as taking seriously the differences between Glocks and 1911s, Minis and ARs or standard transmissions and slushomatics.

You can hunt all twelve months out of the year. The states merely control when, with what and at what you shoot. It's all up to you.

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Old January 31, 2002, 02:19 PM   #6
CD1
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Quote from JosephBoeckner: i have nothing against those people except maybe thier too lazy-i shoot percussion

How do you come to that conclusion? You obviously didn't spend any time thinking it through. I have an inline and a traditional BP rifle. I hunt with the inline because it is much more accurate and has more reach. I would suspect that is the reason behind most inline purchases.

A MUCH better term for choosing an inline over a flintlock would be "RATIONAL". The same thought process goes into using my car to drive to work, not a horse.
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Old January 31, 2002, 02:57 PM   #7
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If you want a "rational gun", then get a modern .30-06 rifle.

Primitive firearm season is for primitive firearms.


BTW, I have seen members of the Cascade Mountain Man Society shoot and hit the water filled plastic milk jugs at 200yds with their traditional flintlock rifles.

http://www.nmlra.org/

Last edited by Salt; January 31, 2002 at 03:21 PM.
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Old January 31, 2002, 03:02 PM   #8
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On hunting,

No one is proposing that we ban the sale and ownership of modern inlines. You can buy them and shoot them all you want.

We traditionalists do propose that they have no place in a primitive firearms hunting season.

Use the modern inlines for modern firearm hunting season and leave the primitive hunts to the primitive firearms.

http://www.nmlra.org/

http://www.nrlhf.org/

http://www.blackpowderjournal.com/

http://www.ninety-eight.net/ibha/
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Old January 31, 2002, 04:46 PM   #9
JosephBoeckner
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hmm

well i understand where ur coming from.. but a modern muzzleloader.... git a 30-30 or something.. i mean its black powder and were doing it like the settlers did and how we won wars.. they didnt have inlines.. its much more of a challenge to load it like a traditional and takes alot more time.. makes one shot count and yes i said lazy.... because u can shoot both but if u pick hte inline ur just making it less of an advantage to the animal..... if u want a modern rifle get ur brass cases

traditional guns can be just as accurate or more if u have the the time (not sitting watching football) and skill (practicing more than once a year) thats not hunting
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Old January 31, 2002, 07:25 PM   #10
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Joseph,

I understand that you like traditional BP's more. No prob. I hunt bow season, Black Powder season, and Gun season. I practice with my bow from May till the october season starts, and I don't watch football because I am in the woods from October to Feb.

As for "one good shot" Im with you all the way. Thats my mantra as well. But if I can get one good shot at 170 yards with my inline, and you can't even shoot because you've got a traditional BP with iron sights, then Im going home with venison and you get to go home empty handed. Truth is, I've never had to shoot at a deer more than 80 yards away with ANY of my guns. Generally I can close the distance while stalking, or I've hung my stand properly. BUT I have the option with the inline. Gives me piece of mind.

All the traditional BP does is reduce your effective range and increase the chance of your gun not going off when you pull the trigger. The average traditional BP is not going to be near as accurate as a modern inline out to 200 yards (most inlines will hit this mark easily). It's just not going to happen. The pilgrims didn't use a 3-9x40 scope either, but I bet my paycheck that they would have used one in a minute if they had the chance. Why? Because they had to hunt to eat, and they would want any advantage they could get. With a grocery store on every corner it's easy for the modern day american to say "hunting isn't challenging enough with that gun." Because there are no ramifications to coming home empty handed...you just open the fridge and you're set.

So, I understand that you like your traditional muzzle loader however, to say that anyone else is LAZY is condescending at best. Especially when one follows that argument to it's logical end. If we used that argument we could call everyone on this board lazy because they are using the internet to talk instead of writing each other letters to discuss all these topics.

ANY weapon I use gives me a technological advantage over a deer, period. Even a flintlock. Thats why Im at the top of the food chain. I bow hunt 2 months of every year, but I won't ever call a gun hunter LAZY for all the reasons mentioned above.
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Old February 1, 2002, 12:27 AM   #11
Zorro
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A Cross referance to my Thread on what Primitive weapons regulations mean:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...threadid=98270
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Old February 1, 2002, 12:32 AM   #12
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Seems to me that the traditional muzzle-loader with iron sights is one heckuva challenge. I would prefer one to an in-line solely because of tradition and nostalgia.

One of the reasons I don't gripe about in-lines during black-powder season is that we're a gadget- and thingummy-oriented society.

What does the average deer hunter need with camo, laser range-finders, infra-red game-seekers, or scopes above 4X?

And as long as I'm on my soapbox, a one-ton 4WD pickemup with a camper and a trailer, when they're gonna stay in a motel and ride the range on 400 acres with their ATVs?

That's just homo sap, AD twenty-ought-two.

Main thing is, make sure they support RKBA and vote.

, Art
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Old February 1, 2002, 01:24 AM   #13
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That line of reasoning could be used to justify a Ruger No.1 rifle chambered in .30-06 for the ML season (One shot).

On the arguement about the frontier settlers, I am sure they would have used semi-automatic rifles in magnum chamberings with Leupold scopes, so why not allow them for the ML rifle season too eh? :barf:



BTW, there are people who regularly shoot out to 200yd targets with traditional muzzleloading rifles.

http://www.nmlra.org/

Last edited by Salt; February 1, 2002 at 03:06 AM.
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Old February 1, 2002, 07:50 AM   #14
Dave McC
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Ladies and Gents, my $.02....

First, I've never owned an inline, seriously doubt I ever will. The old sidehammer percussion models work for me, and if living in Pa, I could manage with a flintlock and patched round ball. Have take deer nicely with a round ball and cap gun, BTW.

I hunted three times this last M/L season, and checked in two does. On each successful hunt, a buddy's inline misfired. Two different buddies, two different Remington in lines. Each time, my cap gun with that big hammer did exactly what it was supposed to.In fact, in over 20 years of ML deer hunting, never a misfire. Shot doe #2 lefthanded, no big deal to me but one bud was overly impressed.

I have no probs sharing a season with any ethical hunter, regardless of tackle choice. If they're hunting ethically,humanely and safely, I don't care if they're using an M-16 with belt feed and lazer sights or a bow they whittled out of an old fence post and a tomato stake arrow. BTW, I had to give up bowhunting because of shoulder probs, but my last checkin was a 7 pointer, 147 lbs, taken with a longbow. I've taken them with recurves and compounds also.

As for possibly losing a season because of high tech weapons during a "primitive" season, no way. Md allows about 40 deer/yr at present and one area of central Md allows unlimited does.We're gaining seasons, not losing them.
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Old February 1, 2002, 09:21 AM   #15
CD1
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Salt,

You don't seem to be following my argument at all. I am not arguing that any gun the settlers would have used is acceptable. My comments in respect to the settlers merely stated that a person using a traditional BP gun for the sake of nastalgia, has no room to call anyone lazy because they choose to use a modern in-line. I'm not sure where your reference to "one shot" comes from but a Ruger number 1 doesn't take anything down the muzzle to fire, so Im not sure how you come to your conclusion on that.

Sure, there are people who hit at two hundred yards with a flintlock...and I've seen people hit at 150 yards with a 9mm luger. The people you are refer to in your two hundred yard traditional BP shots are not your "average" hunter that we are discussing here.

Your argument seems to be that modern in-line BP's should be banned from primitive weapons season. I will agree that there is nothing "primitive" about my in-line. the 3-9x40 Leupold isn't primitive, the composite stock isn't primitive, and the pyrodex pellets and aluminum ram rod are not primitive. The state I live in has obviously chosen to allow this weapon to be used for a good reason.....game management.

My argument is that anyone who calls an entire group of people they don't know "lazy" is foolish.

Last edited by CD1; February 1, 2002 at 11:10 AM.
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Old February 1, 2002, 11:19 AM   #16
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special seasons

Gentlemen: I believe if you check the stats. from most of the states you will see that the number of hunting licenses has fallen in the last several years. We are becoming a decreasingly smaller and smaller portion of the entire population. Remember, over 80% of the population do not hunt. Whatever is required for a hunter to make a humane kill, should be okay. I vividly remember the ruckus that developed when the compound bow was developed back in the late 60's and early 70's. I still hunt with a straight limb longbow, homemade wooden arrows, with a two blade Howard Hill head, that must be hand sharpened. Should all bowhunters be forced to hunt with this equipment? No, not really. Get involved with teaching others the methods of safe and effective hunting, along with proper bullet, arrow placement. And try to get youngsters involved in the sport.
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Old February 1, 2002, 11:44 AM   #17
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Amen, Sarge, Amen!

We sure don't need to make careers of picking flypoop out of pepper.

, Art
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Old February 1, 2002, 02:24 PM   #18
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Ok I'll bite,
First of all if a guy wants to go out and hunt and the only tag he can draw is a muzzle loader tag then god bless him and grant him the right to hunt with any damn M/L he wants. It is still a muzzle loaded weapon and it still takes more time than any cartdrige gun ever devised to load. It is still more suseptable to weather and if the wants to use a scope well thats his bussiness. If the guy is a hunter he's on OUR SIDE DAMN IT. We don't need this infighting it's just like when I hear a bird hunter berating a big game hunter.We need now more than ever to stick together.
I occasionally hunt the muzzle stuffer seasons and I use a traditional .58 cal percusion side hammer gun. I'll let you guys in on a little secret. It is in my opion more effective of a killer than an in line. I'm shooting a 525 gr minnie ball that puts critters down like thors hammer. And I've dropped an Elk at over 100 yds with it. I've seen a lot of guys try to stretch range with an inline they just don't do it, sabbots in particular are lousy rounds that give questionable performance at any range. Inlines are a sales gimmick but they don't give the M/L hunter all that much advatage in fact I think they limit your ability to make those impressive one shot kills that a big bore M/L will do.
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Old February 1, 2002, 05:38 PM   #19
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You've got a point, H&H. Standard response to my trad style M/L( TC High Plains Sporter, 375 gr Buffalo bullet in 50 caliber, 80 gr of 3F) is they run a little and fall down.

Sabots either drop them in their tracks or more often,they run a lot further before dropping. Since we hunt swamps and wetlands, we'd rather see a consistent short run and humane, quick kill rather than a sometime thing.

I guess I've taken 10 or 12 deer this last decade with my setup, missed one, recovered all others, no cripples, no long lingering suffering.

One of my buds had pressed me about getting an inline for its supposed longer effective range with all those Pyrodex pellets. He helped me drag out Doe #2 and has been silent on the subject since.
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Old February 4, 2002, 01:55 PM   #20
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Getting back to Rock_Jock's original question . . . . . .

I agree with him. The traditional muzzleloading seasons have been modernized to the point that special seasons are no longer justified.

Check out Zorro's cross-referenced thread over on the rifle page for some more informative discussion on this same subject.

As for us all sticking together against the anti's, I'm all for that, but that doesn't mean that we can't have discussions (and disagreements) amongst ourselves over how we conduct our sport.

By the early part of the 20th Century, firearms developement had reached such a level of efficiency that a few sportsmen started yearning for more sport than just killing game with the latest modern rifle, ammo and optics.

A couple of fellows (Pope & Young, Howard Hill, Fred Bear, etc.) started rekindling interest in archery. When there were enough people, they lobbied the various game departments for special archery seasons. At that time, most state deer herds had recovered well enough from the old days of market hunting, that the game departments gave them a special season. Besides, thought the wildlife managers, how many deer could possible be harvested with sticks & strings?

Then, about 30-or-so years back, enough folks become interested in hunting with traditional muzzleloaders, that they too, petitioned for their own season. Deer herds had continued to grow, so again they were given their own special season. After all, how many deer would fall to grandpa's old musket?

What most game departments didn't count on, was just how ingenious hunters and manufacturers could be, when it came to stretching the rules to the limit and beyond. But since most our deer herds have now grown to the point of excess (and because they have been sued) they aren't likely to try to rein-in all the gadgets. But, the original reasons for special "traditional" seasons are no longer there, and that's a shame.
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Old February 4, 2002, 04:38 PM   #21
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BRD, no particular argument. But, how long will deer season last?

Bow season. Muzzle-loader season. "Regular" season. In Texas, that totals out around three months.

No matter how morally correct you are--and I've said before that I'm a traditionalist in many things--at some point our poor old Parks & Wildlife folks are gonna start grumbling, "Ya want a longbow seasons? And then a recurved season? And then a wheel-bow season? A traditional ML season and a modern ML season? How about single-shot center-fires, and then bolt-action, and then...GO AWAY!"

If you hunt by yourself you won't know what somebody else is using. If a group of you lease a ranch, you can easily make it a condition of entry into the group that all use only traditional-type muzzle-loaders.

You just can't waste your time worrying about how somebody else is enjoying themselves, if they're not spittin' on your floor.

, Art
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Old February 4, 2002, 09:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
You just can't waste your time worrying about how somebody else is enjoying themselves, if they're not spittin' on your floor.
Yup.

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Old February 4, 2002, 10:12 PM   #23
BluRidgDav
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On the above cross-linked thread, I proposed that because of all the gamesmanship that has occured in the formerly traditional seasons, the regulations should actually be simplified into one "General Deer Season" (use any type of weapon you want). The various game departments are indeed being strained by all the different special interest groups. My point was, that all of these gadgets (modern-muzzleloaders/compound-bows, etc) would fall by the wayside, because their owners aren't really interested in the challenges of traditional weapons in the first place.

It's ironic that some of these gizmo-shooters now engage in a bit of revisionist history, when it comes to this topic. Whenever a traditionalist speaks out about the use of high-tech gadgets, he is said to be just jealous of another's equipment. Quite the opposite is true. It was the modern rifle folks that first became envious of the additional hunting oportunities available to hunters using traditional weapons. But, as soon as they came over to the special seasons, they started turning their muzzleloaders/bows into psudo-7mm Magnums.

I swear, if some folks could find a way, they would enter a Cowboy Action Match with a Glock and an AR-15, and then brag about how high their scores were !!! But, that's not what traditional sports are all about.
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Old February 4, 2002, 10:14 PM   #24
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While the accuracy and sights have improved, I believe that there actually were some in-line type ignitions in the old days, so they can be considered "traditional". They were just a minority in usage.

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Old February 4, 2002, 11:03 PM   #25
Art Eatman
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Well, count me as one with the highest respect for the traditionalist blackpowder hunter.

There is very little about the outdoors and about guns of all sorts that I don't have some knowledge or experience. There's a lot of stuff, I just don't want to take the time to do it.

I went to a Rendezvous up at Fort Davis, back around 1986. Those guys were doing the whole buckskin and blackpowder deal, and doing it well. All homemade/selfmade stuff.

I had a muzzle loader which had belonged to Jim Bridger; he had it made after he came back from the west in around 1853; he carried it during his scouting days with the Army. (It's now in the Cody Museum.) I took it to the Rendezvous and let all who wished to, feel and fondle to their heart's content. It's one of my warmer memories, seeing guys really relate to the "real" old and bygone days.

They'd shoulder it and sight and then close their eyes and dream a bit; hold it out and look at it and grin at each other...Like I say, warm memory.

Every now and then you can do folks some good.

, Art
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