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Old January 28, 2002, 12:03 AM   #1
Nightcrawler
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LOVED the February 2002 Issue!!

The AR vs Mini-14 test was great. But there were other things:

I really liked the "guns of the colonial police" article. Articles disscussing weapons of the 1900-1940 period are very, very interesting AND educational to me, as I don't know very much about that period. Keep up the good work! Besides, such articles throw off the normal gun rag pace of going on about the newest black and tactical wundergun.

Some kinds of articles I'd like to see? Hmm.

Well, we often here about how the basic lever rifle is often overlooked for self-defense purposes. How about an article about how various lever rifles in .44 Mag, .357 Mag, .45 Colt, or .30-30 can work as a defensive arm?

An AR vs. AK match WOULD be cool, BUT:

-It has to be fair. You can't match a DPMS AR against a Maadi AK. I think a Robinson VEPR II would be a good choice.

-Same caliber. AR in .223, use a VEPR II in .223.

-Maybe put a dot sight on both of them.

Something like that.

I'd also like to see some "non-traditional" rifles taken through Urban Rifle courses at places like Gunsite and the like. What do I mean by non-traditional? Well, everybody at Urban Rifle, or tactical (non-sniper-oriented) rifle classes in general, seems to use AR-15s. How about having somebody run through one with an M1A Scout, a shorty FAL, or an AK? Just to be different.

As always, keep up the good work!
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Old January 28, 2002, 07:39 AM   #2
Rich Lucibella
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How 'bout we send Ashley Emerson down to Thunder Ranch to take the Urban Rifle class with a $400, out of the box Lever Action 30-30? We'll give him permission to change the sights and butt pad, slick the action and that's it.

Might be interesting.
Rich
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Old January 28, 2002, 08:45 AM   #3
Ewok_Guy
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Might? Heh, would!
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Old January 28, 2002, 08:50 AM   #4
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Darn Rich,

As soon as I read Nightcrawler's idea about taking the course with a non-traditional rifle the first thing I though of was a 30-30 lever action.

Would one of Jim West's Co-Pilot's fit your criteria for a change of sights and slicked up action?
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Old January 28, 2002, 09:09 AM   #5
Pat Rogers
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Non traditional

I can speak for the Gunsite 223/ 556 classes here.
The reality of life, absent any strong feelings of attachment for a particular gun/ brand etc, is that the AR family is what performs best in that environment.
In the years that i have been teaching those classes, i have never seen a Mini14 complete either course. We did have one lady come through to do a TV shot, and she brought 2 ranch rifles (our suggestion). They both were TU on thursday, and she finished the course w/ my M4.
We have had several Minis through the Chiefs of Police courses, but they are of short duration (2 days pistol, 2days carbine, 1 day SG).
Several of thos attending the CoP classes also brought M94 30-30's, and did well.
We have had several AK varients through. One exceptionally talented shooter brought an AK74 and he and the carbine did superbly, open sights and all.
Note that he was very good, and could perform speed reloads, shot to shot, in 3 seconds. He was a Park Ranger type, had exceptional eyesight, and terrific motor skills.
Those few bringing AK47 varients were generally behind the power curve due to poor weapon ergonomics.
Having spent 5 years in a military unit dedicated to Foreign Material Acquisition and Exploitation, i have seen and fired many rounds out of many varients. I am not as enamored with the gun as many here seem to me. Its vaunted reliability is slightly better then the AR, but at the cost of efficient weapons manipulation, 1/3 of the combat triad.
Note that the 223 class is basically an intro to the system, and we shoot from contact to 300/ 400 yds, depending on the class quality.
The 556 is more of a fighting class, and ranges run from contact through 100yds, with the majority at or under 25 yds.
The 7.62x51 out of any gun is an extremely poor choice for CQB (I note that many are confused as to what CQB actually is) due to overpenetration and muzzle blast issues.
However, though the 223 class (the name is a clue!) is designed for tha caliber gun, we have had several people go through with M14 varients.
As a rule, the ergonomics will put them behind the power curve.
That caliber is better suited for the 270- General Rifle Course.

Personally, i would love to see a wider variety of 556 caliber weapons come through, but that doesn't happen.
This is quite possibly because the AR is a ubiquitous system, and is proven over the years, while many others are of small production runs.

I am not prejuidiced for or against any system on face value.
I am just commenting on what i have seen at the School house.

So- bring out your blaster and put it through the class. It may be enlightening for all of us!

In short, he would have done fine with any weapon, proving the adage "It is the Indian, not the arrow".
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Old January 28, 2002, 09:55 AM   #6
Rich Lucibella
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Schmit-
I don't think the 45-70 would fit for Urban Rifle, for the very reasons Pat states...overpenetration.
http://thefiringline.com/Misc/tanzan...-Buf_Bore1.jpg

I wonder if the 30-30 might not be suitable in the right hands?

As for the Co-Pilot....great gun. I prefer the variant made by DRC Custom (David Clay) myself. Higher cool factor; higher bomb proof factor.
Rich
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Old January 28, 2002, 10:50 AM   #7
Schmit
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Rich,

I didn't represent my last statement well. What I ment to say was a .30-30 with a Scout Scope (ghost ring fixed sights for if the scope gos TU) and the action slicked up. Basically a Co-Pilot in .30-30.

As for over penetration that is all a matter of bullet design, is it not?

Nice Buff, very well trained to lay there like that and let you have a photo taken.
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Old January 29, 2002, 12:28 AM   #8
Correia
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I have a Vepr II K (16 inch bbl. 7.62x39). One of the ones from the first batch in the country. I volunteer to shoot the heck out of it, with different ammo, stick it in snow, mud, sand, dirt, etc... I have a whole mess of volunteers (Utah TFLers) who would be glad to help out and give opinions. Just give it a good run, and write up the results.

I've never written a magazine article before, but I would like to give it a try. Rich, Denny, would this be something that you fellows would be interested in?
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Old January 29, 2002, 10:37 AM   #9
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Correia-

You have mail.
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Old January 29, 2002, 12:54 PM   #10
Bartholomew Roberts
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I just wanted to drop in and echo Nightcrawler's comments. The February article was great - its one of the few magazines I can sit down and read for several hours and still not hit all the articles that interest me.

February's issue was a particularly good article for me since it had the AR15/Mini14 comparison, the EDS Holosight eval, the ACOG piece and an interesting article by Harry Humphries. All in all, I haven't even received the full year's subscription yet and I already feel very happy with the money spent.

I also enjoy Pat Rogers articles from past issues on the M4 and FSBE as well as his participation here and in the Tactical Forums. As an AR15 owner, its nice to have the opinion and experience of someone with extensive experience on the system. Since I buy all my own gear, I really appreciate the opportunity to learn from someone else's experience before I commit what money I have to new gear.
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Old January 29, 2002, 05:11 PM   #11
Rich Lucibella
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Deal is done!

Denny's approval received.
Clint's approval received.
Ashley pressed into service.

Here's the drill:
Ashley will be allowed the following leeway with a new-in-box Lever Action 30-30:
- Butt Pad replacement.
- Basic action slicking and dehorn.
- Optional iron sights of choice.

Here's the assignment:
- Tell us how a stock $500 rifle, from a 100 year old design, performs against today's whiz-bang black rifles in a World Class Training Course.

Look for it in an upcoming issue!
Rich


It should be illegal to have as much fun as I do!
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Old January 29, 2002, 05:37 PM   #12
Denny Hansen
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I've got five bucks that says Ashley will more than hold his own in the class. Any takers?

Denny
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Old January 31, 2002, 07:11 PM   #13
Dave R
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Who is gonna bet against Ashley?


Not me.
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Old January 31, 2002, 08:23 PM   #14
Nightcrawler
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Wow. Something I suggested is actually going to make it into a magazine. (sort of)

How cool is that?? SWAT has a lifetime reader! Booyah!

Um...who is Ashley?
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Old January 31, 2002, 11:27 PM   #15
Jamie Young
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Thats exactly Why I signed up!

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Old January 31, 2002, 11:47 PM   #16
Rich Lucibella
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Ashley Emerson, of Ashley Outdoors fame; of Ashley Express Sights , Ghost Ring Sights, Big Dot Sights, Ashley-Clifton Scout Scope Mount.

Ashley of "Hitting with the Shotgun" (S.W.A.T. Article) fame.

Ashley, the 6'6" Texan who'd just as soon erase you from the planet as have y'all breathe his air! Ashley, the most recoil insensitive mutant on Earth.....besides me!

That's who.
Rich
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Old January 31, 2002, 11:51 PM   #17
Nightcrawler
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Oh...that Ashley. Heh.

Well, I really appreciate that my feedback actually gets read and considered.

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Old March 1, 2002, 10:37 AM   #18
nascarnhlnra
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Can't wait to read the results on this one what a unique mag and forum super user friendly hard to find these days!!!!!!!
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